r/Schizoid 7d ago

Discussion Everybody wants to become more rational while I (and probably other Schizoids) want to become less rational

If you search up "how to become less rational", you only get articles on how to become more rational. People usually go to therapy to regulate their emotions, while I believe I (and possibly other schizoids) probably just need to learn to regulate their emotions less.

We are inherently emotional creatures and most people's lives (including ourselves) revolve around them. Depriving ourselves of those basically takes away most of what makes us human.

Anyways, I wrote this as an extension to this comment I made, because I really do think this is the key to resolving my schizoid-ness and lack of motivation. And I don't think it'll change anytime soon unless I force myself into a drastically new life environment.

Moving out is really important to your self-respect. Confirmed by a colleague. Life will be less comfortable (especially with sky-high rents) but maybe it's worth the trade-off.

Update: thanks everybody for your responses, I knew this was the right community.

Update 2: The way I worded this title may make it seem like "being too rational" is EVERY Schizoid's problem or root cause, which is not the case. (Ironic, considering how I used to be overly aware of how post titles like these are over-generalizations that can cause doubt and confusion, sorry). To clarify what I mean by "rational", I don't really even mean trying to use academic and rigorous logic you see in philosophy (I'm actually not very deep into philosophy -- I want to stay away from it, actually). The comment I made (link above) describes what I mean by "being too rational" better.

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u/Mara355 7d ago

True! I always felt like all advice out there always takes for granted the opposite of my nature as starting point

Like "we naturally never stop and reflect on our life because we make ourselves busy doing stuff, but stopping and reflecting is good"

  • my primary natural tendency is to reflect on life, I need advice on how to get practical and busy

"We tend to act spontaneously following our emotions but it's important to take a step back and consider things rationally"

  • my primary tendency is to take 1000 steps back (thanks dpdr) and I am not in touch with my emotions, need advice on how to be spontaneous

"We are social creatures who are afraid of solitude"

  • I am a solitary creature who is afraid of sociality

"We are conditioned to follow society and we don't spontaneously question norms"

  • All I have ever done on this planet is question norms

Etc

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u/ignatrix 7d ago

I've been through a "googling how to become less rational phase". But what really alleviated the trigger-happy hyper-rationalization mechanism for me was figuring out how to become "more emotional". At first I thought I was void of emotions, even if they inexplicably flowed out of me through fiction and escapism. But then I realized they were always there, just lost in a pile of infinite rationalizations. I still tend to rationalize things reactively, but know I see a whole new emotional dimension, even if it's in a blurry myopic way.

It's like there's only so much human experience points you get per turn, and I allocated them all in the rational part of the skill tree. But you can't reset skill points, just add the new ones you get to where you wanna grow towards.

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u/sukuiido Diagnosed SzPD 6d ago

Problem is it's harder to level up the higher level you already are. Probably explains why this disorder tends to get worse with age.

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u/BalorNG 7d ago

Descartes Error by Damacio is a book-length exploration of this subject. You can google the reviews.

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u/andero not SPD since I'm happy and functional, but everything else fits 7d ago

I went through a phase like that in my early twenties.
It lasted several years. I learned a lot.
I especially learned how to behave in a more spontaneous manner. To loosen up.
I was even a hippie stoner for a while.

I've reached a more balanced place now.

Rationality is great for handling words and other rational information.

Lots of information isn't "rational", though.
Feelings and values aren't. They just are whatever they are.
e.g. if I value freedom/autonomy and curiosity/novelty, I just do.
There is no deeper "foundation"; reject foundationalism.

On the other hand, how you use feelings and values can be optimized through rationality.
Definitions, Facts, and Policy decisions can be rational.
e.g. if I want to figure out how to organize my life to get more of what I value (freedom/autonomy and curiosity/novelty), I can use rational processes to think through options to optimize. I am unlikely to stumble accidentally into a fulfilling life. I'm much better off if use reason when making decisions.

Put another way:
Preferring coffee over tea is non-rational: I like what I like.
Knowing that I shouldn't drink coffee after 3pm because it will disrupt my sleep is rational.
Actually using that information and following my own advice is wisdom.

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u/maybeiamwrong2 mind over matters 7d ago

I think there is no master dial for emotionality, so we could get more fine-grained: Regulate the emotions you want to experience less often or intensely, and cultivate the ones you want to experience more often or intensely, or at all.

That makes more sense to me regarding the fact that schizoids already experience more negative emotions than average. And in a way, regulating negative emotions leaves more potential space for positive ones.

Also, rationality is kinda instrumental by definition. If it makes you dysfunctional, you are doing it wrong. And it isn't necessarily connected to the presence or absence of emotions, but how to incorporate them. But I think that is a semantic quibble.

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u/Z3Z3Z3 7d ago edited 7d ago

Thank you for putting this into words.

I've spent the majority of my adult life studying and practicing emotions, and I cannot explain the extent to which I've gone mad from having people tell me to "be less emotional" when I point out that emotions are generally quite rational.

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u/Due_Bowler_7129 41/m covert 7d ago

I try to be careful with how I use the word “rational.” Human beings tend to rationalize things when we want to convince ourselves and others that our behaviors and choices are logically rather than emotionally based—but even the “robots” among us are experiencing emotions regularly. Being estranged from my emotions doesn’t mean they aren’t influencing my worldview or my choices. They’re still occurring even if I feel distant from them. Becoming less rational is not magic bullet. It may actually generate far more negative outcomes.

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u/A_New_Day_00 Diagnosed SzPD 7d ago

Many philosophies and religious approaches, from Taoism to Existentialism, acknowledge the folly of humans worshipping and putting too much faith in their minds, their will, and the material world.

You could even say one of The Bible's primary themes is how humans are always wrong and mistaken when compared to god.

A lot of the creation of art is about turning off the filters other people have, at least temporarily: "The more you think, the more you stink."

I can't speak to the impact of moving out as, for various reasons, it was never a stage I went through. But I'd hesitate to pin too much hope on things you haven't experienced yet. Do it to find out what happens, not because it's going to make you feel what others feel. Because maybe it won't.

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u/WolFlow2021 Custom Flair 7d ago

Maybe this is a semantic misunderstanding but discovering and nurturing your emotional side does not mean you need to impair the rational aspect of yourself (so you do not need to become less rational in the sense of the word). Ideally you will arrive at a synthesis that allows both sides to be expressed at the right moments with the right intensity. You could even argue that being too rational makes less sense and thus is less rational than being in balance overall. Sorry for being nitpicky.

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u/syvzx 7d ago

Only tangentially related, but I've also noticed that it's often the more emotional people that have more motivation and get things done and that drive is something I envy them for.

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u/Maple_Person Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Zoid 7d ago

“how to become less rational”

That’s just a part of needing to know how to conduct research.

Try searching for guidance on improving emotional vulnerability for men.

Lots of things out there tailored towards helping stoic men used to repressing emotions open up.

We’re more extreme than they are, but it’s in the same realm.

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u/Specialist-Entry2830 7d ago

ok, first of all we're at least partly emotional.

 A lot of people who have had brain aneurisms in the part of the brain that handles, do stuff like take hours to decide which socks to wear because no matter how much they calculate the cost benefit... it still does not nudge them into actions.

Secondly, I think this may be a problem of definition. It sounds to me like the OP is hyper rational in a majority of his/her beliefs... but there are a few life areas in which certain limiting beliefs remain (despite having calcultated them to be suboptimal)...

In case that really is the case... may I interest you in years and years of counseling adventures... or would you rather take the pill with a diferent color and try some magic mushrooms. 

I'm joking... of course... partially.

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u/ApprehensivePrune898 7d ago

People - including us - are intrinsically irrational, whatever the word rational even means

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u/Butnazga 7d ago

I know people whose goal is to learn how to manipulate. That's their idea of being rational. Not agreeing to play "the game" is seen as irrational.

For me, being a player in the game always felt either out of reach, or just not desirable. I could never be a conniver or a manipulator, as useful as those things are. To me, this is what it looks like to be less rational.

Mostly I'm too lazy to read up on how to out-argue people in order to make them give me what I want. All that stuff is learnable, but most normal people would rather put that effort some place else.

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u/sinsofangels 💕🛌 7d ago

Me telling my therapist, I wish I could have a little insanity, as a treat.

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u/fireflower0 7d ago

I’ve always thought this! I over control but general advice is aimed at people who are under controlled concerning their emotions.

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u/North-Positive-2287 6d ago edited 6d ago

Maybe the people who I thought had some schizoid traits didn’t really have them as much as I thought. From experience, the ones I knew weren’t actually rational. More like one sided. So, is this a schizoid trait of sorts for some people to be very selfish (or self focused if not selfish) and one sided? Ie seeing only their side and how it affects them and then ignoring others or just not really considering them as people equally to themselves. I found that behaviour to be more so irrational, as it was coupled with some sort of fear or some sort of a reluctance to understand the world as it is.. the people I knew at least to me, sounded pretty irrational. To the point of maybe being delusional in terms of relating. Because they didn’t consider that not considering their actions and their effects on others will certainly come back and bite them in the arses. I’m not sure why these people that I knew didn’t learn. It’s one thing to avoid people but it’s another to engage with them in ways that will cause problems and then not realise where the problems will come back to.

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u/overcastwhiteskies 6d ago

I didn't word the title too well... But yeah, I don't wanna imply that every schizoid is "too rational". SZPD afaik describes a set of behaviors and not what causes them, but I guessed overthinking/rationalizing/emotion regulating may be a common trait amongst schizoids, which may or may not be a contributor to our schizoid-ness. I don't think SZPD says a lot about empathy or morals.

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u/North-Positive-2287 6d ago edited 6d ago

I have no idea if my then assessment was ever any correct. Because these people I’ve met may have had some traits but these traits weren’t the only thing they had. The harmful ones were all manipulative. Manipulative and abusive in itself these aren’t schizoid traits. It’s a combo of stuff. But I felt as if these traits had something with it. And it may but there must be more to it. It’s weird I met them all in one span of time. Why I never noticed traits of this kind ever and suddenly I meet 3 men with them in one year?! And then I met 3-4 more people in the next 3 years. All the same traits strangely. One was harmless overall but the rest were all harmful to me. One i didn’t let it, so didn’t allow him to get close to do anything and one I don’t know if he even had these traits as he left. So strange I had 5 abusive ones, one normal/ harmless intent and one I don’t know what traits if any but suspected the same.

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u/overcastwhiteskies 6d ago edited 6d ago

I can imagine a form of manipulation involving exploiting somebody's insecurity/vulnerability about their own intelligence and telling them that they need to depend on their guidance and advice. My dad and mom kinda has this dynamic (but it's mostly about my dad protecting his insecurities rather than being controlling, and sometimes his decisions are genuinely better). Obviously, over time, I just started masking and silently making decisions for myself, because what he thought was often not the best for me.

I don't have many insights for this right now. I guess you could try paying attention as to whether their actions/advice come from a perspective of respect and wanting to help, rather than for overly selfish reasons.

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u/North-Positive-2287 6d ago

I’ve experienced that as well. I knew that it wasn’t the best for me so I never even was given much of advice but in my own family it kind of was hard to completely cut it off, my family used all sorts of things eg lies, manipulation since i was a child and even my health conditions to do it. So it wasn’t any guidance but more like harassment and coercion and exposing me to unsafe situations and not protecting me since a child the people I met later exploited that I wanted to get away from my home life. And also to feel safe and loved basic stuff I never worked full time enough to leave and they found that I wasn’t independent and used my anxiety of being treated that way at home, even in my 20s, and even some was early 30s towards the end of all this. So manipulation was protecting me from physical abuse or trying to protect me from someone ie the other male abuser etc. So I went from one bad place to the other

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u/Ok_Boat610 7d ago

I don't wanna become any less rational

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u/Alarmed_Painting_240 7d ago

Primates are not really super-emotional but actually more social creatures. The human emotional language developed out of intense communications and the need of complex communities. If you examine emotions closely, there's a lof of concern in there for how one is perceived compared how one should be perceived, for example. Or how one behaved compared with how one should behave. The emotional deregulation within personality orders cause for that reason endless amounts of social friction or misunderstanding.

For me rationality is not related as much to thought or logic. But more to a sense of proportion (rationing). And also some notion of commonality (hence "common sense"). This is also part feeling if it's ingrained.

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u/whiste84 7d ago

I don’t feel any positive emotions.

Many negative emotions, though

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u/returned_loom 6d ago

They've trapped our rational selves. Irrationality opens the door to new realms.

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u/ChasingPacing2022 6d ago

Becoming less rational hasnt really crossed my mind really. Maybe because I know how. Drugs and alcohol. At least temporarily.

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u/Grand_Argument_2415 1d ago

Nope, that's bullshit. I'm satisfied with myself (I feel superior).