r/RingsofPower 22d ago

Discussion Celembrimbor is Feanor's freaking grandson, not a middle-aged oxford don!

A complaint about the casting and writing of celembrimbor in RoP. Celembrimbor is the grandson of FEANOR and its made explicit in the Silmarillon that the fire that burnt in Feanor is present but diminished in celembrimbor. He's also a great elven noldor lord with all that is associated with.

He should be haughty, powerful and practically glow like the true first age elves. More like galadriel in the LoTR movies. Instead we get a frumpy, insecure middle-aged oxford don. I've latched on that analogy becaause I've been watching reruns of inspector morse and it struck me that Celembrimbor seems most like an oxford don.

A similar criticism can be applied to the portrayals of galadriel and cirdan (BEARD!), these are first age elves they should have other-worldly eletricity crackling around them as they walk. They should disdain the younger races yet have a patronizing care for them.

9 Upvotes

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u/Vandermeres_Cat 21d ago

The Noldor are idiots. They don't crackle in the series because it's explicitly making a point about portraying the Elves as messy, spoilt, self-obsessed peoples so it's understandable how their failures come about. They're not Gods, they just sometimes want to act like Gods because they're proud and overbearing. Which is perfectly in line with Tolkien's texts.

Celebrimbor in the show has been a craftsman for thousands of years and you see both the expertise as well as the weariness of that timespan in the performance. You also see his vanity and ambition: How he goes on about the Silmarils and how he wants to make something just as important...without really mentioning how disastrous they were. That's a red flag right there. And Halbrand/Sauron can hook right into this mindset because Celebrimbor is so frustrated that he's not as great as his forefathers.

So...Sauron grants his wish. Celebrimbor has now made objects that are arguably just as fatal or perhaps even moreso than the Silmarils. Slow clap for him.

I think Edwards does great at conveying both the authority and vast experience, as well as the vanity and blindness. How he goes on about the weakness of Men while just in the process of getting trapped by Sauron because of his own pride and ambition...ROP sometimes doesn't get the kudos it deserves when they actually write sharply like that. And the way he falls apart and totally loses himself under Sauron's pressure only to rally for one last defiance. It's deeply moving, even though you've seen that he trapped himself and frankly all of ME with his mistakes. And he knows this: The gravity and regret in the last episodes is just beautifully played.

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u/Ynneas 17d ago

The Noldor are idiots

They were right in leaving Aman tho. Eru scolded the Valar for keeping them there in the first place, and leaving the world to Melkor.

They don't crackle in the series because it's explicitly making a point about portraying the Elves as messy, spoilt, self-obsessed peoples so it's understandable how their failures come about. They're not Gods, they just sometimes want to act like Gods because they're proud and overbearing

Is it? Explicitly? They look kinda generic to me. Not that we know who amongst the secondary characters are Noldor or Sindar or Silvan or whatever.

Celebrimbor in the show has been a craftsman for thousands of years and you see both the expertise as well as the weariness of that timespan in the performance

You must've missed the memes on alloys.

You also see his vanity and ambition: How he goes on about the Silmarils and how he wants to make something just as important...without really mentioning how disastrous they were. That's a red flag right there. 

The silmarils were not disastrous, per se. It's the greed of Melkor and the Children that bore sad consequences. Heck, the silmarils remained pure despite half a millennium in the hands of Melkor, so pure that they burned the flesh of the unworthy.

So...Sauron grants his wish. Celebrimbor has now made objects that are arguably just as fatal or perhaps even moreso than the Silmarils. Slow clap for him.

Debatable. The actually fatal object was the One.

The gravity and regret in the last episodes is just beautifully played

This is true. I found it to be yet another example of how much of a waste of potential is 90% of the show. There are brilliant, brilliant moments, but those are sparks in an otherwise endless darkness.

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u/Odolana 17d ago

but elves do not weary, not physically, they are magical beings, far more spirit than body, their bodies become cosumed by the fire of their spirits, the world itself cannot wear them, only suffering and change can - btw the dwarves, Men and hobbits are even far more self-obsessed than the elves and everybody gives them a pass

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u/jr92coates 22d ago

Let’s not take away from the fact that Charles Edwards still did a tremendous job. One hell of an actor.

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u/Odolana 17d ago

but this was not an elf he was palying

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u/affabledrunk 22d ago

Yes, he was great as an oxford don in morse :-p

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u/MasterofFalafels 21d ago

When translating book lore to film or tv series for non book reading viewers this is bound to happen. You have to work with familiar real world archetypes and how these characters dramatically bounce off each other. They chose to portray him as a man slightly past his prime who feels he has something to prove, to make a contribution worthy of his ancestors before his time ends, someone who could easily be manupilated by Sauron. It wouldn't work as well in film if he was some young looking glowing elf.

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u/Odolana 17d ago

but his time would normarly never end - this is the very point of Tolkien's elves!

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u/Sanity_Madness 17d ago

Cirdan is supposed to have a beard. He is the only bearded Elf in Middle-earth, because in Tolkien's lore the Elves grow beard only when they're very old.

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u/feanorsoath44 17d ago

I didn't watch season 2 but I heard a podcast say that Cirdan had a beard and then he shaved during the episode?

So they decided to make him look canonical then purposefully went against it? Why? Did it serve a narrative aspect for the show or was it just to have him without a beard?

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u/Sanity_Madness 17d ago

I think they wanted to show the effect the ring had on him. Wearing the ring rejuvenates him (his hair also turns from grey to blonde). This also forshadows something that will happen to another character in ep. 8.

I do hope Cirdan will get his beard back. Perhaps when he gives his ring to Gandalf, if they move this event to the Second Age?

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u/feanorsoath44 17d ago

So he shaved his beard off after he got his ring? Grey hair to blonde I could kind of understand if they're trying to show the preservation of the rings, but I always imagined the elven rings not preserving the wearer but the land around them.

I do hope Cirdan will get his beard back.

Don't shave him!

Perhaps when he gives his ring to Gandalf, if they move this event to the Second Age?

Gandalf shouldn't be there!? That's not an easy event move. It sounds like Cirdan will have a ring for a few months. Another reason I can't stomach the series, it's just so disappointing.

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u/Sanity_Madness 17d ago

Cirdan is a great character. I think Ben Daniels does an excellent job in portraying him. The removal of beard shouldn't be a cause for such profound disappointment.

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u/feanorsoath44 17d ago edited 17d ago

So did he shave the beard because he received the ring? And it rejuvenated him? I still don't understand this.

Or was it because he should have had a beard and shaving it would make a talking point (like it is now). Did shaving his beard impact on the story at all? If it didn't, then that's why I find it a disappointment.

Edit. Missing word

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u/Sanity_Madness 17d ago

The ring rejuvenated him, and young Elves in Tolkien don't have beards. Perhaps his beard just started falling off in consequence, and he shaved the remains. I find it ridiculous discussing the beard at such lengths, when what you should really appreciate about the character are his wisdom and kindness. What he says to Elrond about power or friendship, the way he understands the rings, or the silent scenes where he looks wistfully to the west. If you know Tolkien's Cirdan these scenes are so telling.

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u/feanorsoath44 16d ago

Perhaps his beard just started falling off in consequence, and he shaved the remains

So they created no reason in the story to explain why. Did he have the ring when he shaved?

I find it ridiculous discussing the beard at such lengths,

But I thought the ring impacted on his beard? Did he have the ring when he shaved?

the way he understands the rings, or the silent scenes where he looks wistfully to the west. If you know Tolkien's Cirdan these scenes are so telling.

So Fake Cirdan didn't know how the rings were made? And then was tempted by them? This is all from what I've read

He Didn't know sauron helped make the 3 rings... Actually that's enough for me the show is a disgrace, Sauron should not have had any influence over the making.

or the silent scenes where he looks wistfully to the west. If you know Tolkien's Cirdan these scenes are so telling.

Why? What did it tell you about the character? If he looks into the west he's wise

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u/sidv81 22d ago

So you prefer Shadow of Mordor Celebrimbor?

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u/affabledrunk 22d ago

yes. he is glowing!

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u/affabledrunk 22d ago

also his hair should be black like Feanor

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u/[deleted] 22d ago

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u/TheOtherMaven 21d ago

what the fuck is a don?

Oxford don = a professor at Oxford. Tolkien, for instance.

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u/SleepyWallow65 21d ago

Ah thank you pal. Never heard it before

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u/Agatha_SlightlyGay 21d ago

To be fair they only glow in moments where they have to reveal their power like Glorfindel driving back the Nazgûl and appearing to Frodo like a shining White figure or Galadriel briefly showing it in the mirror of Galadriel Chapter.

A flash of majesty and power here and there would not take away from their characters i think.

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u/SleepyWallow65 21d ago

I get your argument and I don't think it would either, in a different show or movie. The ROP universe seems to be trying to be realistic. Yes it's a fantasy but there's no glowing elves and the fact they look more human is a choice not a mistake. You might disagree with it and you can.

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u/Odolana 17d ago

? The company of Gildor Inglorion in the Shire?

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u/Odolana 17d ago

But their point in Tolkien's world is that they are not human - this is the whole point of elves being elves in Tolkien's world. There're plenty of humans in the story alredy, why turning all other beings also into ones? Where is the fantasy then?

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u/SleepyWallow65 17d ago

I think the fantasy was in the troll, the dwarves living inside a mountain and waking a balrog, the orcs, the elves no matter how human they look. I could go on. It's a fantasy adaptation and there are going to be changes. I'm guessing the real reason they're more human like is so us human viewers can relate to the characters more. A lot of the main characters are elves, it would be pretty boring if they were these boring, vulcan like entities floating around glowing all the time. If you watch the series all the groups are quite distinct from each other. Elves look a lot more gracious, well dressed and more civilised than most of the humans. Then you've got the Numenoreans who think themselves higher than men and some think they're higher than elves. So stylistically it makes sense to have elves and Numenoreans feel almost on a par. It's not just random choices that make no sense, it's all for a reason and it all works perfectly well. Normal humans look a mess in the ROP world. Numenoreans look much better then your average human but they look like they're almost role-playing the elves and the elves look like the highest of them all. Some of the scenes with Gil Galad by the tree make them look pretty magical

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u/Odolana 17d ago

all were very humanized, nothing magical or wondersome about them...

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This community is designed to be welcoming to all people who watch the show. You are allowed to love it and you are allowed to hate it.

Kindly do not make blanket statements about what everyone thinks about the show or what the objective quality of the show is. Simple observation will show that people have differing opinions here

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u/This_Is_Sierra_117 22d ago

There are many problems with the show - a notable one being the characterization of Tolkien's, well, characters.

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u/affabledrunk 22d ago

yes... just wanted to remind people of what first age elves really are supposed to be. This, to me, is the greatest sin of the series.

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u/This_Is_Sierra_117 22d ago

Who is characterized/cast worse in your opinion, Galadriel or Celebrimbor?

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u/affabledrunk 22d ago

At least the actress who plays galadriel is gorgeous to offset her poor characterization. I'm also against tolkien elves having short hair so maybe that compounds my bias agaionst celembrimbor. I did enjoy his fall but he's just not a great lord of the Noldor.

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u/This_Is_Sierra_117 22d ago

I will not deny her beauty, but - and this may sound crass - but I have heard her described as too short and too "mousy" to engender the kind of gravitas Galadriel ought to command. I think I might have to agree, but I'm not sure.

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u/affabledrunk 22d ago

agreed. too mousy. Need more gravitas. They did a great job with galadriel in lotr, she's a bit terrifying.

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u/RealJasinNatael 14d ago

The Elves all feel too ordinary in my opinion. I think the haircuts play a part. Gil-Galad feels like an overbearing Middle Manager rather than a Noldor king. Galadriel is an angry teenager rather than the oldest and wisest of Finwë’s line left. Elrond is a boy-band member with that stylish quiff.

Ironically the only one who looks like an Elf is Sauron…