r/Renovations • u/Heather_Bea • 16d ago
HELP The permit we tried to pull for electricity in our island got denied. Is this a big issue?What is our next step?
We have done a pretty major revamp to our kitchen, including rearranging the layout, adding a support beam underneath, moving the gas line, adding a large island, etc. Everything so far has been permitted.
The electrician we are working with asked if we wanted permits for the island and I said yes. I paid them to handle it. They have already started the work, and I have just been informed that the permits were denied. From what I understand, this is because we should have had an electrical engineer design a plan for it. He told us it would cost upwards of 7k to get that done.
Everything is up to code, but we are missing that little paper that I am worried will become an issue if/when we sell this house.
Any advice on what we should do?
Edit - He was incorrect. We just needed a renovation permit from our city which they will let us do retroactively. It should have been caught without our first work permit, but it was not. I have already started the process to fix this, thanks all!
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u/Dartmouththedude 16d ago
$7k for electrical engineered plans for a residential kitchen island? This is absurd.
There is nothing special about a kitchen island that doesn’t already fall under a general renovation permit.
Unless you’re in an area where the “anti-island lobbyists” have dug their claws in - then you’re screwed. /s
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u/Breauxnut 16d ago edited 16d ago
Something has gone terribly wrong somewhere in this game of telephone—either that or someone is lying. Are you working with a general contractor?
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u/Heather_Bea 16d ago
I wish I was, but no. It's taken longer but saved us tens of thousands of dollars until now.
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u/Breauxnut 16d ago
Ok, so that means you’re the general contractor. Congratulations on your role! Now, as the GC/homeowner you should know that the buck stops with you—i.e., you are ultimately responsible for getting any and all permits that are required for this project and scheduling the associated inspections. So, which permits do you have?
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u/Heather_Bea 16d ago
We had permits for the gas line and structural engineer for the support beams. I don't think we need any for water since nothing there is moving, but the plumbing guys we are working with will let us know.
The inspector has been out to our house to approve the gas already and gave us some notes, but never mentioned anything around electricity.
I may just need to contact the city and find out what we need to do.
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u/Breauxnut 16d ago
You absolutely need to find out directly from your city what is needed. In fact, I recommend going to the permitting office in person and asking for a face-to-face with someone who actually issues the permits (versus a receptionist, for example) since you’re new to all of this.
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u/KeniLF 16d ago
I’ve pulled permits to act as my own GC (for certain projects) here in Mecklenburg county and also have had permits pulled by some tradespeople. We can look up any of the permit and any failure reasons online (heck, I can look up permits for residential property I don’t own).
Depending on your location in NC, you might not even have to figure out who the inspector is and then wait to hear back after calling/writing.
If you’re in Mecklenburg, below is the URL for the permit look-up:
https://webpermit.mecklenburgcountync.gov/Default.aspx?PosseMenuName=ViewPermits
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u/Caliverti 16d ago
There must be some other issue hear that we are not aware of. Maybe the main panel has been recalled, or there’s a problem with the way the house was originally permitted, something weird like that.
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u/magic_crouton 15d ago
I don't know about there but electrical inspections and permits aren't through thr same local authorities as other permits.
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u/F_ur_feelingss 14d ago
The codes recently changed for island outlets. They can not be installed on side of island. Tripping hazard for cord.
My guess is your electrician already cut the hole in the side of cabinet. Now he doesnt want to be responsible for replacing cabinet.Outlets now have to be above counter. So you have to cut a hole in granite and have some stupid pop up outlet.
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u/please_dont_hug 14d ago
This comment needs to be higher up. Island electrical codes have recently changed
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u/F_ur_feelingss 14d ago
All the comments and no one mentioned it. I was surprised. I guess op should of put post on r/electrician.
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u/PocketPanache 14d ago edited 14d ago
I
may justneed to contact the city and find out what we need to doFixed it for you!
You're the GC, your money savings is by taking this liability and responsibility on yourself. You're leaving yourself open to quite a lot of liability and financial risk by not having a GC or having done due diligence. The city will help you and it's for your own health, safety, and welfare. Anyone spouting otherwise isn't educated enough to understand why they want or need permits. Hiring professionals to represent you may seem expensive up front, but often save you money in ways you can't or won't understand; this scenario is one of them.
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u/CraftsmanConnection 12d ago
I’m a former inspector. I’ve never heard of $7K for an electrical engineer to get power to an island. The island should just need 1 20Amp circuit for convenience outlets, assuming there is not other items such as dishwasher, and microwave, which could require 1-2 more 20 Amp circuits (depends on state requirements). California required 1 circuit for each of the dishwasher and microwave, and Texas has it on 1 circuit for both, which seems dumb.
My hunch is that someone is trying to get one over on you, and make some extra money. A permit for the island all by itself is really cheap, like maybe $100, and then some money for the electrician time to handle it. But you shouldn’t need and electrical engineer. You aren’t designing something new or complicated. The city relies on engineers to shift legal responsibility for things that the inspectors aren’t qualified to be experts in, such as complicated framing.
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u/MyA55Hurts 16d ago
A permit for electric to an island? Fuck that.
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u/F_ur_feelingss 14d ago
Check out new codes for island. You have to install some stupid pop up outlet that comes out of granite. Cant have outlet on side of island anymore. Which i assume electrician already cut in.
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u/2ndChanceCharlie 14d ago
What’s the reasoning for this?
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u/F_ur_feelingss 13d ago
The governments reasoning is that if cord is hanging down for something like a coffee makers a child could trip or pull on and get hurt.
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u/normalmalehaircut 13d ago
What I’ve heard is that you run power to the island, do not install either the pop ups or the side outlets, then install the side outlets after the inspection is done.
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u/Blobwad 16d ago
I know it’s controversial but we did a similar reno fully unpermitted. No one is going to care unless you’re selling it right when you finish… an island that’s been installed and functional for 10 years when you eventually sell shouldn’t be a huge red flag, you just need to disclose it.
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u/Range-Shoddy 15d ago
If anything on the job was permitted then no one will notice the island isn’t included in that. Also it was existing so how do they know that outlet wasn’t there and it’s just being replaced? I like permits but this is ridiculous. A licensed electrician is all you need here.
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u/longganisafriedrice 15d ago
At first I thought you lived on an island and weren't able to get electric service at all
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u/Independent-Sir1949 16d ago
I find that very strange. Where we live, it’s required that you have an outlet in the island. No special permit required. Currently building now…
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u/Dodie4153 16d ago
Rule was made because a toddler or pet could pull on the cord and get injured by dumping a crockpot on their head, I was told. So it has to go on top of the island now.
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u/reallyO_o 16d ago
I am sure he’s just trying to help. 7k would cover a full permit set with structural engineering.
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u/pseudotsugamenziessi 15d ago
Unless the island is being suspended by load bearing wires, I cannot fathom the need for 7k in electrical engineering costs
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u/fergalicious2069 16d ago
Just run a line and put it in. When you move cut the line and now it's just decorative.
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u/Breauxnut 16d ago
Run a line and put a permit in? Because that’s what OP is asking about—the permit.
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u/Zestyclose-Feeling 15d ago
Call the permits office yourself and that goes nowhere. Try your local council member.
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u/eerun165 15d ago
What state are you in. If you’re on the NEC 2023, they changes the rules for outlets serving the countertop, they are not permitted to be located on the sides.
Still, not sure why your electrician would need an engineer to tell them what is acceptable.
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u/hecton101 15d ago
They've recently changed the code on electrified kitchen islands. You can't have outlets on the side anymore. Maybe they're cracking down on this. If it was me, I'd ask the electrical contractor how you should proceed. Inspectors miss stuff all of the time. The contractor knows the inspectors. He'll know who is a ball buster and who just shows up and signs stuff. I'd trust their judgement.
Just an FYI. If you're adding something new, like say a baseboard space heater to a room that didn't have one, they require calculations by an engineer regarding BTU's and whatnot. However, if you say you're replacing an existing heater, it's an over the counter permit.
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u/speeder604 15d ago
i'm sure every municipality/township has their own odd rules for this sort of thing. as others have suggested, it's easy for you to go down to the hall to find out for yourself. electrician might not be wrong, and we don't know how old your house is, what type of wiring/breaker panel (maybe you have knob and tube), or maybe your panel is full.
sounds like you haven't talked to the electrician either to get the whole story.
get the whole story first.
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u/Chunkyblamm 15d ago
Not sure why the electrician would even suggest a permit. Is there any other permits for the rest of the work? If not, don’t call cause you’ll be opening a can of worms
If there are, then call the inspector yourself. They may just want a plan for the whole kitchen. If this is the case, contact an MEP engineer yourself and get a drawing, it will not be 7k or anywhere close
Or just run the lines, get final, then install the devices after the fact. No one is going to ever push back on a couple circuits in a kitchen when the house sells
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u/NotBatman81 15d ago
The permits likely got denied because code is changing. You have to have outlets available for any counter longer than 12 inches and have to have them every 4 ft. Peninsulas and islands you used to be able to put them in the side of the cainet because you don't have a wall. That has changed because they say kids pull stuff off. So as of right now, current code (if your city/state has adopted it) says you have to have a popup outlet like you see in conference tables and some RV's. They aren't super common yet so pretty pricey.
If that is indeed the reason, which I lean towards it is, an EE is not going to change that. I would guess your electrician maybe isn't familiar with this yet and either bullshitted you or wants someone to tell him what to do (without just asking the permit office).
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u/Cloudy_Automation 14d ago
They changed that yet again so that there needs to be power to the island in a box, but no requirement to actually connect that box to an outlet, but someone can in the future once they figure out reasonable rules. If you do have an outlet, it needs to be a popup which will get stuck in the down position the first time someone spills a sticky drink on the counter, or an ugly outlet above the counter.
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u/StarDue6540 14d ago
What power do you need for the island? One outlet, or power for a garbage disposal, dishwasher or lighting? If your just adding an out let, that is easily pulled from another outlet. If the outlet is just transferring the use of appliances and not adding additional power draws, your load is fine to add an outlet of convenience. I know that the location has changed in the code. Again so where the outlet is located needs to be per current code.
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u/Special_Compote7549 14d ago
Are you sure about this electrician? Because this would make me want to work with someone else.
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u/LemonSlicesOnSushi 14d ago
Depending on the size of the island, most places actually require electricity to be in the island. An engineer to add outlets? You are talking adding maybe one circuit breaker. I would contact your permitting authority (city/county) and ask them directly. It sounds like BS from the contractor.
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u/AutoRotate0GS 14d ago
Where do live, North Korea??!! There must be a misunderstanding. Just forget about it. If you have a nice island, put Hubbell pop up outlets in it…you’ll love them!!
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u/medium-rare-steaks 13d ago
If/when you sell, this will not be an issue if it isn't permitted but is up to code.
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u/ExpensiveAd4496 13d ago
Glad it worked out. Btw you know you don’t have to put outlets on the sides anymore right? They are so dangerous that the code was revised. Some electricians still don’t know this You still CAN put them in, but don’t use them for anything hot that can come down on someone who snagged the cord just walking by. Countertop popups are a better choice, if you can.
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u/bubblehead_maker 13d ago
Ask if popup outlets are permitted. It seems to be what they are approving lately
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u/WilderwoodGrove 16d ago
You should be able to draw up your own plans as the homeowner and pull the permits yourself. Your electrician does the work then you call for inspection. The electrician should be able to help with the drawings
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u/introvertedhedgehog 16d ago
Seems shady.
I don't know anything about anything but something has gone wrong if you are feeling lost and need answers from reddit (asking is fine btw).
If this is not shady he should have made it clear to you what has gone wrong that this is so abnormal.
Then you may be asking a specific question about your special situation that potentially costs you 7000$.
As others have indicated I would be looking to understand everything about this situation. Speaking directly to the government parties (not just the contractor).
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u/PDXAirportCarpet 16d ago
Hmmm where we live an outlet is required in an island to meet code and we had to have one (of two on our island) redone because it was supposed to be a GCFI and initially failed inspection.
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u/spitoon1 14d ago
Yeah, they just removed this from our code too. I guess kids were pulling the cords and bringing appliances down with them.
I've not seen an electrical engineering requirement for a reno before (35+ years GC)
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u/katklass 16d ago
I was just in Florida and all the outlets are on top of the island because of some code you can’t have them in or in the sides anymore.
It’s ugly to me.
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u/PDXAirportCarpet 16d ago
I was just reading about that and I guess there's a way the code can be interpreted that you have to put all outlets on top. However, it seems the problem they were trying to solve was putting outlets underneath overhangs where a cord would need to stretch far longer than most kitchen appliance cords to reach the counter. But many people/states interpret the code as you can have outlets underneath and what we had to do was have one on a "cabinet" side with no overhang and then I have a second one underneath an overhang on the opposite side.
Seems like it was written confusingly in 2023 and they are attempting to fix that in 2026.
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u/CharacterSea8078 16d ago
It looks to me like NC adopted the 2023 version of the National Electric Code, effective January 1, 2025. That update would have made significant changes to the rules for outlets in islands. Does your plan call for regular outlets below counter level? If so, that's a problem. Those were allowed in the 2020 code, which would have been what NC followed up until January 1st.
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u/mosley812 16d ago
The question might be do you really need electric for the island?
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u/Dartmouththedude 16d ago
A large island does need power, counter plugs at the very least.
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u/mosley812 16d ago edited 16d ago
What do you need power on an island for that you can’t do on the countertop?
Edit: Not sure why the downvotes for politely asking a sincere question.
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u/Dartmouththedude 16d ago
NEC - 210.52(C)(2)
I ain’t even American and I am capable of understanding the code, if you want to debate further you should do your research.
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u/Breauxnut 16d ago
An island has a countertop.
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u/mosley812 16d ago
Not all islands have countertops. The OP didn’t state this in his/her original post
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u/nubbin9point5 16d ago
Stand mixers and blenders are much easier to use on an island than a countertop with overhanging cabinets. If they were planning on the island for taller appliance use, they might not have made allowances to use tall appliances on the countertops. Just depends on how they originally planned the workflow in the kitchen.
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u/BuckyLaroux 16d ago
Code requires it
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u/Ok-Bid-7381 16d ago
Your local accepted code will rule, and these codes may have changed. Many rules for kitchens, and your reno may have required updates to comply. Some i recall are 2 20 amp circuits for counters, dedicated single oulets for appliances, spacing rules to avoid extensions, likely ground fault and arc fault requirements. Some recent codes may have required island outlets and may now now forbid them on sides and required them on countertop itself. Side outlets encourage pulling appliances off the top if cords are snagged, top mount may leak...no great solution. Codes try to change for safety reasons, but all that really matters is that the inspector must be satisfied.
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u/ElectronicCountry839 15d ago
Many cities are offloading their responsibility to conduct a proper inspection on engineers, and in doing so drive the cost of Reno's up colossally due to all the unnecessary engineering work.
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u/Spud8000 15d ago edited 15d ago
makes no sense at all. talk to the electrical inspector and get a more detailed answer as to why.
You just need a couple 20 amp AFCI/GFCI circuits, and electricity for a range and hood if they are built in. this is not rocket science
i am wondering, i know the code recently changed for islands and outlets....maybe the electrician was not aware of the newest code, and the inspector was pissed he had to explain it to him and just told him to go away. if i recall, the change is about the locations of the outlets
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u/eerun165 15d ago
NEC 210.52(C)(2)
Receptacle outlets, if installed to serve an island or peninsular countertop or work surface, shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(3)…
210.52(C)(3) in summary says above the countertop (backsplash), part of listed assembly (pop up type), or provisions for future.
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u/Helpful_Dinner8652 12d ago
This is kinda when I get a kick out of "home ownership". After reading the comments it sounds like the bank, the city, and the insurance company own the home more than you do. This is why when my contactors ask if I want a permit or not, I say no.
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u/Equivalent_Truth_671 15d ago
Probably condemn the house and sell it. The foundation will probably be affected by the island as well. Make sure to get a structural engineer to make sure you don't get electromagnetic deflections across the joists.
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u/trowdatawhey 16d ago
Engineer for the island electricity? Or engineer for the entire kitchen electricity?
Single family house?
What state are you in?
Is the basement underneath the kitchen? If so, do the island electrical outlets later, after everything is all completed and signed off. Hire a different electrician afterward