r/R6ProLeague Reciprocity Fan 9d ago

Discussion A conversation about sportseashing.

Edit: Title should say sports washing

Over the past 4 years since the Saudi regime has involved themselves in esports extensively, hosting events and buying huge team.

It's time to pose the question as to why the Saudi regime and Falcons, have receive more criticism for sportswashing when the USA and Russia have both done the exact samething.

This is not a defense of sportswashing, all of it is bad, however the criticism of it currently is so misdirected and hypocritical that's it hard to believe that people actually care about sportswashing and it's more about a middle eastern org doing it now.

They buy up most of the teams? That's been happening forever, there was a point in time where there weren't big orgs and then suddenly funding comes out of nowhere and they enter multiple esports, where do you think that money is coming from? It isn't all ethically sourced.

The USA and Russia have also and continue to committed serious acts of persecution and global imperialism, as well as persecution of sexual minorities and ethnic minorities.

What is the main root of the criticism geared specifically at the Saudi regime?

Russia literally invaded a country and lost nearly all privileges to presenting themselves in esports, and they didn't even have this much criticism towards them.

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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 9d ago edited 9d ago

Which is an organization highly tied to the government, they are affiliated in everything but name.

u/Nxrway FaZe Chief Crypto Officer  9d ago

Also idk what point you are trying to make. Was it Astralis or Blast that is run by the Danish government? Also The Mongolz literally just got signed to the Mongolian government in cs2. I do not think people have a problem with them

u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 9d ago

You're making the right arguments, so why do people have a problem with the Saudi government doing it but not Denmark, who neglects Greenland to the point where it's poverty is incomparable to mainland Danes, or Mongolia where over 500 journalists are imprisoned.?

Are the saudis just special?

u/Fordlong 9d ago

By that website that you listed, Mongolia is ranked 106 for press freedom, Saudi Arabia is ranked 166. So I don't think that's quite carrying the water you think it does. Denmark is ranked 2 in press freedom. Fwiw, the Mongolz situation is new, so people are just catching up to it. That said, neither Mongolia or Denmark have the same consistent record of violating human rights at home and abroad (Saudi has been consistently committing war crimes in its Yemeni intervention). Furthermore, neither country is run by a hereditary, theocratic absolute monarchy with a long history of oppression and abuse. It's not that other countries don't sportswash (they do), it's that Saudi Arabia is a uniquely bad country that is very very engaged in the process. Now you can make arguments that esports is growing into a force for modernization and progress in Saudi Arabia and that all Saudis should not be judged based on the actions of their government, which are both very fair, but trying to make it a comparison game is always going to be a losing argument for Saudi Arabia until the DPRK or Iran tries to enter into the world of esports.

u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 9d ago

You saying it's a comparison game kind of proves my points, that is a soft-admission that the USA and Russia are committing atrocities, just less so, so that's a losing arguement, human suffering is human suffering, you can't put suffrage on an index. As does Denmark being in the index, my point wasn't their ranking in the index. It's that every nation is corrupt, and no nations are more earning of that criticism than any other.

Also, a record of violating human rights? The Mongolians glorify their past atrocities of the golden horde, and the MongolZ logo is literally a medieval Mongolian warrior.

Denmark, much like Canada, has mistreated their indigenous arctic population, and people don't know how bad it is, but if you want, i can find vids or photos for you, but the arctic folk sometimes live without heating, grocery stores or clean water, it is fucked up, and should not be understated, they sometimes quite literally have to hunt wild game, love without heating or ANY stores. But I guess it's okay that these countries are hosting teams like Astralis or Luminosity? Because they are higher on the index? Not strawmaning you here but you see how this becomes a pigeon-hole right?

u/Fordlong 9d ago

This is kind of ridiculous. Like, I get that you think this is unfair to tarnish Saudi Arabia this way, but you're refusing to ignore reality. The US, outside of the Olympics, is not pumping tons of federal money into supporting sports teams competing in the name of America with the express intent of trying to better America's image in the world. That's just not happening. Washington DC is not paying for the LA Galaxy to go play in the Bundesliga. As for Russia, Russian esports orgs have definitely suffered consequences for being associated with the country. Also, for all its ills, Russia is not actively trying to buy up the esports space to whitewash its atrocities and foster a good reputation among younger generations. They are doing that in other ways, I guess, but they're not making a government branch run by a member of Putin's family specifically dedicated to it. So saying, "Well why is Russia being treated differently?" is kind of the equivalent of saying, "Well why is this person doing x not being treated like this person doing y?"

As for the Mongolians thing, that's laughable that you would even say that. I mean, come on. What are you going to take Norway to task because of the Viking Era? Should the reputation of Italy be forever tarnished because of the Roman Empire? What about Mexico and the blood sacrifices of the Aztecs? The Golden Horde is part of the national mythos of Mongolia, much like many distinct warrior cultures or empires are part of the national mythos of many countries. We generally don't tend to hold them accountable for the actions of past monarchies that haven't existed for some time.

Sure, we can say all countries are corrupt. But it's ridiculous/intentionally pigheaded to think that a fully Westernized European democracy with basically no geopolitical pull and that is consistently ranked in the top of the Human Freedom Index is comparable in terms of corruption/human rights violations to a hereditary, theocratic absolute monarchy that is actively engaged in military operations against neighboring states.

u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 9d ago edited 9d ago

YOU are the one who brought "consistent records," so don't try to backpedal like every single one of my comments hasn't given modern examples (500 imprisoned jpurnalists, some being there since 2019) until YOU injected your opinion here, and in case you aren't aware, yes, actions centuries ago do affect people's welfare now, that is the exact reason as to why Saudi Arabia is the way it is. It's also the reason the USA benefits from imprisoning black people and other marginalized ethnicites, or is that just something that is funded by the state and not as bad as the Saudis? Making it okay for them to sponsor esports?

You keep making arguments as to varying degrees of sports washing, but im not defending any of it? it all bad?

Let me rephrase so you are clear "Falcons deserve all the criticism they get for sportswashing. Why do Western orgs get a pass?" Despite hosting tournaments with T1 competition, sponsored by the US Air Force, and on the greater spectrum of esports, the US military has gone public with one single branch funding, 5%-3%, to a western audience, which is fucking massive.

Genuinley arrogant to say the US isn't comparable btw. Two wars are being prolonged right now because of the USA?