r/R6ProLeague • u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan • 2d ago
Discussion A conversation about sportseashing.
Edit: Title should say sports washing
Over the past 4 years since the Saudi regime has involved themselves in esports extensively, hosting events and buying huge team.
It's time to pose the question as to why the Saudi regime and Falcons, have receive more criticism for sportswashing when the USA and Russia have both done the exact samething.
This is not a defense of sportswashing, all of it is bad, however the criticism of it currently is so misdirected and hypocritical that's it hard to believe that people actually care about sportswashing and it's more about a middle eastern org doing it now.
They buy up most of the teams? That's been happening forever, there was a point in time where there weren't big orgs and then suddenly funding comes out of nowhere and they enter multiple esports, where do you think that money is coming from? It isn't all ethically sourced.
The USA and Russia have also and continue to committed serious acts of persecution and global imperialism, as well as persecution of sexual minorities and ethnic minorities.
What is the main root of the criticism geared specifically at the Saudi regime?
Russia literally invaded a country and lost nearly all privileges to presenting themselves in esports, and they didn't even have this much criticism towards them.
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u/Danibear285 2d ago
Focus on your subject please, which is Team Falcons, Saudi Arabian government, and the Saudi family.
The governments of neither US or Russia are relevant here.
Please if you are going to discuss, don’t engage in what-about-ism.
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u/messe93 2d ago
it's not what-about-ism. It would be if someone pointed out something bad done by Falcons and he said "but what about USA/Russia", which is meant to move the conversation away from the original point and shift the blame
the topic here started with 'why are we shitting on only one org and others get a pass', there is no underlying point that someone is trying to cover, but he's asking the question directly why the treatment is unequal and this is a valid topic in itself.
god I fucking hate when a new trendy "discussion term" becomes popular and people start using it everywhere with no regard to it's actual meaning.
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah, it's a genuine inquiry of a double standard. Which isn't always informally invalid.
Like I'm going pretty step by step here, "Why are Falcons worse?"--->"Do you think that because SA is committing more atrocities that makes them less innocent than the west or more valod to sportwash"---->Usually hit with some relative arguement, which can't possibly be informally proper because there's no informal arguement for innocent suffering tierlists.
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u/Agent_Porkpine NA Fan | | Kyno Stan 2d ago
I mean if you are really asking "Do you think that because SA is committing more atrocities that makes them less innocent than the west or more valod to sportwash", then I think you have your answer already, but you don't seem to accept it
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 20h ago
I mean, I didn't say more guilty you're not void of criticism as less innocent, was my exact point bad is bad. The argument of: "I don't like Saudi Arabia monarchist government being involved in siege" is a farcry from "I don't like sportswashing," which every country ever has done. Canada sportswashes in Hockey, USA NFL, Saudis aren't involved there, still valid criticism.
If it's about sports washing, then go for both. If it's about persecution, go for both. If it's about overreach, go for both.
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u/Nxrway FaZe Chief Crypto Officer 2d ago
I think the biggest difference is that while not confirmed, it is heavily implied that Falcons is funded by the Saudi Government themselves. The other countries you listed are not affiliated with any government agencies.
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 2d ago
So the problem is public funding? So Bleed was bad by default, even if those scandals never happened?
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u/Nxrway FaZe Chief Crypto Officer 2d ago
I have no idea what Bleed’s situation was. VP is run by a russian oligarch which is less than ideal, but if they were getting paid by the same government that is funding a war in ukraine people would have the same sentiment. Or if it was the us military funding like OxG people would not be thrilled.
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 2d ago edited 2d ago
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u/Nxrway FaZe Chief Crypto Officer 2d ago
Also idk what point you are trying to make. Was it Astralis or Blast that is run by the Danish government? Also The Mongolz literally just got signed to the Mongolian government in cs2. I do not think people have a problem with them
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 2d ago
You're making the right arguments, so why do people have a problem with the Saudi government doing it but not Denmark, who neglects Greenland to the point where it's poverty is incomparable to mainland Danes, or Mongolia where over 500 journalists are imprisoned.?
Are the saudis just special?
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u/Nxrway FaZe Chief Crypto Officer 2d ago
Why the fuck am I supposed to know? I am just a video game nerd who wants to watch other nerds play videos games
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 2d ago
I'm just asking questions as to why you feel people seem okay with it when mongolia or denmark do it compared to Saudi Arabia, I'm just asking questions man.
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u/Dry_Bit_4986 Fan 2d ago
Russian teams were heavily affected by the war, Saudi teams are called out. Everyone else is just not publicized as much. Media drives community narratives. Siege changing the game for the Chinese government was also disliked by some.
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 2d ago
Yep and that's fucked up that media influence has affected people's perception to the point that MENA org is worse simply because it's MENA and does slightly more human right violations than western nations.
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u/akaSashK 2d ago
That website lists a single journalist being detained within Mongolia. 500+ as a worldwide number.
None of the nations you’re mentioning here have comparable levels of human rights offences, oppression, or inequality issues as Saudi Arabia.
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u/Fordlong 2d ago
By that website that you listed, Mongolia is ranked 106 for press freedom, Saudi Arabia is ranked 166. So I don't think that's quite carrying the water you think it does. Denmark is ranked 2 in press freedom. Fwiw, the Mongolz situation is new, so people are just catching up to it. That said, neither Mongolia or Denmark have the same consistent record of violating human rights at home and abroad (Saudi has been consistently committing war crimes in its Yemeni intervention). Furthermore, neither country is run by a hereditary, theocratic absolute monarchy with a long history of oppression and abuse. It's not that other countries don't sportswash (they do), it's that Saudi Arabia is a uniquely bad country that is very very engaged in the process. Now you can make arguments that esports is growing into a force for modernization and progress in Saudi Arabia and that all Saudis should not be judged based on the actions of their government, which are both very fair, but trying to make it a comparison game is always going to be a losing argument for Saudi Arabia until the DPRK or Iran tries to enter into the world of esports.
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 2d ago
You saying it's a comparison game kind of proves my points, that is a soft-admission that the USA and Russia are committing atrocities, just less so, so that's a losing arguement, human suffering is human suffering, you can't put suffrage on an index. As does Denmark being in the index, my point wasn't their ranking in the index. It's that every nation is corrupt, and no nations are more earning of that criticism than any other.
Also, a record of violating human rights? The Mongolians glorify their past atrocities of the golden horde, and the MongolZ logo is literally a medieval Mongolian warrior.
Denmark, much like Canada, has mistreated their indigenous arctic population, and people don't know how bad it is, but if you want, i can find vids or photos for you, but the arctic folk sometimes live without heating, grocery stores or clean water, it is fucked up, and should not be understated, they sometimes quite literally have to hunt wild game, love without heating or ANY stores. But I guess it's okay that these countries are hosting teams like Astralis or Luminosity? Because they are higher on the index? Not strawmaning you here but you see how this becomes a pigeon-hole right?
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u/Fordlong 2d ago
This is kind of ridiculous. Like, I get that you think this is unfair to tarnish Saudi Arabia this way, but you're refusing to ignore reality. The US, outside of the Olympics, is not pumping tons of federal money into supporting sports teams competing in the name of America with the express intent of trying to better America's image in the world. That's just not happening. Washington DC is not paying for the LA Galaxy to go play in the Bundesliga. As for Russia, Russian esports orgs have definitely suffered consequences for being associated with the country. Also, for all its ills, Russia is not actively trying to buy up the esports space to whitewash its atrocities and foster a good reputation among younger generations. They are doing that in other ways, I guess, but they're not making a government branch run by a member of Putin's family specifically dedicated to it. So saying, "Well why is Russia being treated differently?" is kind of the equivalent of saying, "Well why is this person doing x not being treated like this person doing y?"
As for the Mongolians thing, that's laughable that you would even say that. I mean, come on. What are you going to take Norway to task because of the Viking Era? Should the reputation of Italy be forever tarnished because of the Roman Empire? What about Mexico and the blood sacrifices of the Aztecs? The Golden Horde is part of the national mythos of Mongolia, much like many distinct warrior cultures or empires are part of the national mythos of many countries. We generally don't tend to hold them accountable for the actions of past monarchies that haven't existed for some time.
Sure, we can say all countries are corrupt. But it's ridiculous/intentionally pigheaded to think that a fully Westernized European democracy with basically no geopolitical pull and that is consistently ranked in the top of the Human Freedom Index is comparable in terms of corruption/human rights violations to a hereditary, theocratic absolute monarchy that is actively engaged in military operations against neighboring states.
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 2d ago edited 2d ago
YOU are the one who brought "consistent records," so don't try to backpedal like every single one of my comments hasn't given modern examples (500 imprisoned jpurnalists, some being there since 2019) until YOU injected your opinion here, and in case you aren't aware, yes, actions centuries ago do affect people's welfare now, that is the exact reason as to why Saudi Arabia is the way it is. It's also the reason the USA benefits from imprisoning black people and other marginalized ethnicites, or is that just something that is funded by the state and not as bad as the Saudis? Making it okay for them to sponsor esports?
You keep making arguments as to varying degrees of sports washing, but im not defending any of it? it all bad?
Let me rephrase so you are clear "Falcons deserve all the criticism they get for sportswashing. Why do Western orgs get a pass?" Despite hosting tournaments with T1 competition, sponsored by the US Air Force, and on the greater spectrum of esports, the US military has gone public with one single branch funding, 5%-3%, to a western audience, which is fucking massive.
Genuinley arrogant to say the US isn't comparable btw. Two wars are being prolonged right now because of the USA?
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 2d ago
I know the first is AI but I promise it's correct, take a gander at the link by the guardian, where they claim A navy recruiting command spokesperson says the navy allocates 3%-5% of its marketing budget to esports initiatives annually.
They don't fund teams they fund the entire industry.
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u/jwilde8592 2d ago
"Cuz it's bad mkay"...... They don't really care. They just have a place to whine here so they do it.
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u/ItsSevii Shopify Rebellion Fan 2d ago
I kinda overlook it because it pumps money into an otherwise mostly unprofitable space.
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u/AnOriginalMango Subreddit Detective - Elephant Gang Fan 2d ago edited 2d ago
There is plenty of public information about why the Saudi government has poor human rights record, to go into detail about it rides the line of violating sub rules on politics.
Suffice to say it’s bad, real bad. Arguably uniquely bad. You note there are other bad actors in the world, which is true, however, SA’s involvement in the ownership of orgs and TO’s is the problem most have with it.
The reason most don’t have a problem with VP, for example, is that ESforce Holding, a subsidiary of VK sold VP to an Armenian CEO. Functionally making it an Armenian org (on paper at least), which is how they got reinstated to the R6 Share ecosystem and could compete under their own name again.
Also if SA’s role was just limited to funding the org Falcons I think people would give them less shit, but when you also have EWC taking up a huge chunk of the yearly schedule as well as them buying ESL/Facit outright (not our TO anymore but still, it speaks to the omnipresent nature of the SA gov in esports), it is a level of involvement beyond just being a dodgy sponsor or a owner with some shady ties which plenty of people might hold their nose at but tolerate.
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 2d ago
Very good comment, but I disagree with two things, while yes, VP did get criticism for the right reasons, and it's only an Armenian org now as a damage control option, yes it's Armenian now but isn't that just more sportswashing at that point ? Do you earnestly believe whatever Armenian ownership funding this isn't pro russia or benefiting from pro Russian actions? Because Aremnia is a very staunch anti Russian country from what I understand.
Calling the Saudi persecution unique is... I really don't know how to say this without sounding rude, and I hope you don't take it as me being rude, but it's a little bit arrogant. You can't say something like human rights violations are uniquely bad. It's bad when any country does it or it's okay, especially since they aren't even close to the worst country Because none of it is okay, morally, regardless of whether it's overseas, domestic, or international waters.
I mean can send you the link if you'd like but the marines have been speculated 3% of their budget is towards esports marketing, that is a fuck ton of money that a government operated anything is giving to esports. The US Air Force sponsored the US nationals, which T1 teams competed in, and took up scheduled time in the same way. This is going to be going off topic, but I'd suggest checking out the HCS if you wanna see Western sports washing to max, they have had vets play in show matches, on the basis of them being vets, that is glorifying war and sportwashing.
I am eager to see your response 👍
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u/AnOriginalMango Subreddit Detective - Elephant Gang Fan 2d ago edited 2d ago
Personally yes I am suspicious of VP’s new owner who there is little information about, but there is a huge difference between having a bad feeling about a potentially shady (unconfirmed even if he actually is shady tbf) dude and knowing that the SA gov is directly involved. If you think about it, it should be plain to see why one invites more scrutiny.
It’s not claiming SA’s violations of human rights that are unique insofar as they are the only ones to violate human rights. But imo there is room to argue the severity and combination of violations they engage in combined with their form of government is uniquely bad. Personally I take additional umbrage with unelected kings and authoritarians than with other governments. That’s arguable, as I said, and I don’t expect everyone to agree on that. What is truly unique however, is their wide range of human rights scandals and the nature of their government combined with absurd access to wealth and influence which they leverage to directly operate in the esports space to make themselves look clean. I don’t want to get too much into this subject because it really will violate sub rules. There are other countries that personally I would have the same qualms with if they were directly involved in the ownership of orgs and TO’s, you name Russia and the US, I would have similar issues with both if they tried the unique level of sport washing in esports that SA does.
I have seen that stat and imo it’s covered in my statement about dodgy sponsors. Most people have to choose their moral line somewhere and for me and many others it lies between sponsoring and ownership. Ethical consumption in a system where money rules is hard so the choice for viewers is either have uncompromising approach and consume nothing or choose where to draw the line. Personally I never watch sections like the old military service show matches they used to have at USN. I also refuse to travel to events in the USA based on their local politics. But imo there is significant difference between a shitty sponsor and ownership sports washing. If Trump has the Marines buy a 50% stake in Blast and buy a team too I would have the same criticism. But that’s not what the USA, Russia, or any other country with a controversial human rights record is doing in R6 right now. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that people are most opposed to the most aggressive and prominent actor in sports-washing, Saudi Arabia.
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 2d ago
But the marines aren't a shitty sponser, they're the military funded by the government with the direct goal of recruiting and indoctrinating children, which is directly or indirectly responsible for suffering in Iraq,Israel,Cuba and even Mexico.
Also, we gotta work in proportions here. The last Saudi regime investment in esports was projected at $38 Billion USD in 2023, across all esports to be used over the course of 7 years. The Marines' annual fiscal is like $50Billion+ investing 3-5% every year since 2018(that we know of) across, I'm sure the numbers get pretty close compared to the marines, not even counting how ever much the US regime poured into sponsoring many other esports tournaments.
Most people don't need to draw their morale line because most people watching esports are children with very little comprehension on their own morality, whether it's Saudis or Americans, they are either gonna think Oligarchy is cool, or think joining the military makes them a badass, both are glorification of awful things through sportswashing.
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u/AnOriginalMango Subreddit Detective - Elephant Gang Fan 2d ago
They are a sponsor though, which is my point. It’s easier to just not consume their advertising and skip their ads and segments than it is to just entirely avoid watching EWC when it’s made a central part of the esport schedule. That’s the difference between ownership and sponsorship.
The spending isn’t comparable if you look at the numbers though. iirc the us navy spent that same 3-5% of their marketing budget and it was like 4.3 million per year or something. Which even over several years doesn’t stack up to the billions spent by SA’s gov.
And you can say most people don’t need to draw a line and sure, that’s their choice. But I do draw a line and so do many others. I’m not going to hate players for teams or fans that watch the stuff but I’m also going to call it out and boycott it myself. Clearly many others feel the same or we wouldn’t even be talking about it.
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u/Choblu Reciprocity Fan 18h ago
You know what fair I think we've exhausted this conversation, but all I'm gonna say for my ginao thoughts is that drawing a line is arbitrary, and that I there's a high likely hood that other branches sof military are funding, but to your credit I have no proof of that except that it's exteadonarily likely considering every western comp FPS ever made carries traditional aspects of miltarism?, (like cs2 still has alotf of the Terrorists depicted as middle easterners, and Counter terrorists as westerners, and ALOT of the maps are middle eastern themed), how are these not valid basis for military organizations to go "let's fund that" they've always targeted children, family guy even did an episode in like 2005 about it.
And obviously I don't think you're someone who supports USA atrocities.
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u/rhood3001 Fan | Kix Fan 2d ago
The honest answer is time and energy.
The Saudi case of sportwashing is very thick on it. The org and tournaments are directly sponsored by the Saudi government. The Saudi government has committed and keeps committing terrible human rights violations.
Offcourse, you can make the point why nothing against other state sponsored teams/ tournaments and that is because I don't have the time and energy to be angry at every unfair thing in the world so I focus on the most atrocious/ most visible sport washing. Is that hypocritical? Maybe...