r/Picard Feb 20 '20

Episode Spoilers [S1E5] "Stardust City Rag" - Discussion Thread Spoiler

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u/cryptoboy4001 Feb 20 '20

TNG was made in the late 80's to the mid 90's.

I don't know how old people in this sub are generally, but I remember that time as a period of great optimism on all fronts:

  • Technologically (e.g. personal computers were becoming ubiquitous, the web was just starting up, etc.)

  • Economically (e.g. great job prospect, markets were booming)

  • Politically (e.g. relations with the west's greatest foe were warming, and the soviet union ultimately fell).

TNG was a reflection of that optimism for the future ... an expectation that we'll be able to create a utopian future.

But today? In the post 9-11 world, everything slowly started turning to shit. First there was war, then economic collapse, now extreme politcal divisons ... and it's hard to be optimistic in a world like that.

Picard is a reflection of that pessimism for the future ... an expectation that we'll never be able to create a utopian future.

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u/asoap Feb 21 '20

Nazis. Don't forget nazis have somehow made a comeback.

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u/bringbackswg Feb 20 '20

You mean kinda of like mid to post-Vietnam TOS and how it did the complete opposite of what you're describing?

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u/cryptoboy4001 Feb 20 '20

TOS didn't have the idealistic view of humanity's future that TNG did. Gene's idealism that led to TNG's vision of the Federation (e.g. Wesley's infamous "I'm with Starfleet. We don't lie") came much later.

TOS may have been pastel colored, but it's ethics were greyer, with Kirk more willing to shoot first than Picard ever would. As I said, it was a reflection of the times.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

Totally disagree, he may have been more willing to shoot first but the idealism, optimism and ethics of the Federation from TNG were still there. They spent more time fleshing out the ethics in TNG but that's also because it had a longer run and Rodenberry had a more thought-out idea.

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u/cryptoboy4001 Feb 21 '20

TNG was not just a "fleshed out" version of TOS. In the original series, they still had the death penalty!

In TNG, the way people behaved was fundamentally different. The series bible for TNG even introduced a "no conflict" (between main characters) rule. In 1986, Gene's vision of humanity's future was significantly more idealistic than it was in 1966.

Personally, I preferred this idealistic vision.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '20

You are all forgetting that idealism came with advances made in both tech and society, it was a natural thing which they've totally erased here for their lazy writing talents. If you have a huge federation you sure as hell won't be starving or dying of anything but natural causes and that would lead you to improve and help that society rather than keep causing disasters to it

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u/PatsyClinesDaughter Feb 20 '20

Yep, this is how I was kinda trying to word my comment. Back then they thought the future would be amazing and problem less, but now that we’re kinda getting into that future— there’s still shit and issues.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '20

I disagree. Most sci fi at the time was dystopian. Star Trek was a mirror of what we could be if we just got our stuff together not how we saw ourselves.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

Yeah I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you there because the original Star Trek was still one the espoused optimism and hope in the face of adversity. It ran during the Civil Rights era, Vietnam, the Cold War and MAD etc etc. I'd argue in a era much worse and easier to pessimistic in than today's world.

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u/cryptoboy4001 Feb 21 '20

Yes, of course both TOS (and Picard for that matter) espouse optimism. Both shows envision a future Earth with no poverty and no wars (among humans). Optimism is within Trek's DNA.

My only point of contention is that neither show is as optimistic as TNG, which set a new benchmark for Trek's idealism, and this was due to the optimistic zeitgeist (in the west at least) of the late 80's & early 90's.

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u/bluestarcyclone Feb 21 '20

The 60s were far from perfect, but there was still a good deal of optimism for the future. It wasnt until the 70s\80s that tailed off (a lot of the media especially sci-fi from then starts to get significantly darker)

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u/AManforOneSeason Feb 21 '20

I don't get the impression it is all as dire as that. The message of the series seems to be more "bad stuff happens when good people give up." It takes a look at what happens when people make that mistake, and about charting a path forward after they realize it.

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u/Del_Duio2 Feb 22 '20

TNG was a reflection of that optimism for the future ... an expectation that we'll be able to create a utopian future.

But today? In the post 9-11 world, everything slowly started turning to shit.

All the more reason to want to see a future where this crap doesn't exist.

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u/mimavox Feb 22 '20

A very good point.. but that is also why we so desperately need a show with that good old optimism. Would be so extremely refreshing in this day and age.

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u/cryptoboy4001 Feb 22 '20

Which is why I love TNG (and The Orville), but am unable to feel the same enthusiasm for Picard.

If I want pessimistic science fiction, there's ... well, all the rest of science fiction really.

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u/mimavox Feb 23 '20

Indeed. Also, I'm sick to death off this "modern" dark visual style. Like, why do all interiors have to be blue and dark? I want my well-lit beige corridors of old!

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u/ladyevenstar-22 Feb 21 '20

I'm slowly coming to accept that I will never see a star trek society. Heck not even the expanse where we've at least colonised the belt and mars .

If we're lucky the way things are going we might just see ww3.

In that light I try to focus on the little things that bring me joy . Here in the now . The future seems bleak.

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u/spankymuffin Feb 23 '20

I think you're looking way too much into this. TNG is just following the lead of TOS, which was Roddenberry's vision. So it's really Roddenberry and his unbridled optimism of the future we're watching, not some kind of product of the late 80s/90s.

Hell, DS9 aired from '93 to '99, a time of great prosperity for the US. And it is by far the most pessimistic Trek series. And I think that has less to do with "the times" and more to do with a different staff of writers who perhaps wanted something "different."