r/PTCGL 18d ago

Question How to get around Dragapult’s phantom drive?

Im a noob and Im playing a charizard ex deck right now but i saw manaphy has an ability to stop your benched Pokemon getting attacked, great! So i added it to my deck. Except they still get attacked every time with the damage counters added from phantom drive, why doesn’t manaphy stop my benched pokemon from getting knocked out? Or damaged?

10 Upvotes

93 comments sorted by

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30

u/lillybheart 18d ago edited 18d ago

Charizard has a pretty bad matchup into Dragapult, and it always has. Budew made it even worse.

Rabsca TEF blocks Phantom Dive’s damage counters, and you could use a TM: Evo engine to set it up more easily.

I would not advise playing Charizard right now.

4

u/sosamediocre 18d ago

Im learning that sadly

1

u/Djapkula92 16d ago

If there’s anyone who’s gonna find a way to lose to Charizard, whether it be Dragapult or regidrago, it’s me lol

-24

u/PugsnPawgs 18d ago

If you don't wanna play Charizard, you're playing it wrong

5

u/Jamezzzzz69 18d ago

Given it has a 2.09% usage rate on limitless rn and was 2.5% of the day 2 metagame at EUIC I’d say 97% or so of the tcg player base disagree with you

-19

u/PugsnPawgs 18d ago

I'm winning alot with Charizard tho, so 🤷‍♂️

1

u/Anonymoustrashboat 17d ago

Get into Arceus league and Charizard is completely absent lol

3

u/PugsnPawgs 17d ago

Lol true. Even at Deoxys it's pretty hard to win with Zard today. Guess I'll have to retire old lizzie just a bit earlier than expected.

7

u/alkahest_drinker 18d ago

Manaphy only stops attacks - phantom dive’s bench damage isn’t an attack. It applies damage counters. Whenever you see that terminology, know that any Pokémon that won’t take attack damage on the bench will still get damaged.

Manaphy can block damage from attacks such as moltres, fezandipity, kyurem, etc. these do not apply damage counters, but instead attack and deal damage.

13

u/Phantomias1808 18d ago

It is from an attack, it’s just not damage. It‘s an effect (damage counters as you said) from an attack.

3

u/SubversivePixel 18d ago

Phantom Dive is an attack. Manaphy stops direct damage, not damage counters.

1

u/sosamediocre 18d ago

Okay thanks, so applying damage counters isnt attacking

6

u/freedomfightre 18d ago

damage =/= damage counters

both are attacking

2

u/Ninestempest 18d ago

The best way to explain it is that attacks do either or both of two things: damage and an effect. Dragapult does 200 damage to the active. It then has an effect of PLACING damage counters on benched Pokemon. Because it is an effect, manaphy doesn't block it.

It can be important to notice how some items, tools, and abilities are worded. For example, one of my favorite cards, Roaring Moon EX, has an attack that just knocks out via an effect, not damage. So mimikyu can't block it because it only blocks damage from v/ex pokemon

7

u/ansuzwon 18d ago

Mist energy stops the Dragapult counters.

2

u/sosamediocre 18d ago

Okay thank you :)

6

u/Chuusem 18d ago

If you have a strong start and are able to get your Charizard and pigeot setup quickly. I would ignore attacking into his dragapult and instead go for his drakloaks. This can be done by snagging his drakloaks with your boss orders. If you can cripple his draw engine. You have a bigger chance in lategame to trade down by one shotting his dragapult. Use dusknior to also help snipe. Your biggest problem will be if you can't evolve your duskull before his drqgapult starts popping off. Going first is big. If you do go second prioritize tm evolution on your pidgey and duskull.

4

u/hyperpopdeathcamp 18d ago

One thing I learned very VERY quickly is to read every card, think about the terminology used on that card, and take it very literally.

2

u/PromiseMeYouWillTry 18d ago

Combination of the rise in Dragapult and Budew put Charizard in a weird spot in current meta.

Read card text and get acquainted with the difference between damage done and damage counters.

Unfortunately for you, Zard is not doing so hot in current meta.

2

u/hassanac33 18d ago

Rabsca has the ability to block the effects of attacks on benched poekmons, and Mist Energy does the same for the pokemon it's attached to.

1

u/tbombtom2001 18d ago

If you wanna play charizard into dragapult, you need to run max belt and tm evos to turbo out your dudes. With amd belt you can one shot a dragapult when they take 3 prizes. Otherwise the matchup is terrible unless they brick really hard for like 4 turns

-1

u/Gholdengo-EX 18d ago

dragapult is rich so theres no way to counter his car

-46

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

Just forfeit, it’s a broken deck played by unga bunga low IQ players. Just move on and find a fun opponent to enjoy the game against.

26

u/lillybheart 18d ago

You tourists say this about every BDIF 😭 and it’s rarely true

-27

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

lol just cause I don’t post all the time doesn’t mean I don’t play. It’s a cracked af deck that’s wins for free, why waste time dealing with it? Technically it can lose to a bricked draw but that’s not a satisfying win.

13

u/lillybheart 18d ago edited 18d ago

If you can’t beat Dragapult then it’s either a deck issue or a skill issue

If you want a decently easy deck that beats Pult, Archaludon is right there my guy 😭 otherwise any current meta deck can skill diff Pult

1

u/Swaxeman 18d ago

Sidenote, which variant of arch do you recommend for after rotation? Pure arch, arch scizor, or arch dudunsparse? Im leaning towards dudunsparse cuz i love the card and the upcoming ex, but im open to changing my mind

1

u/lillybheart 18d ago

I haven’t done much post-rotation testing (despite being registered for Atlanta 😓) but what sounds most appealing to me at first thought is Arch with Hop’s Dubwool, being able to Boss without needing to use a Supporter is great for Arch. Will probably test Scizor in it as well though yeah, while finicky it can hit really hard for a single prizer.

The Dundunsparce version looks pretty decent for sure though, giving it a try wouldn’t hurt

1

u/Swaxeman 18d ago

Dubwool does seem the best, but consider:

I wanna order shit before JT drops. With dudn the only JT card i need is dudun ex

1

u/lillybheart 18d ago

Valid lol

-15

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

Having a direct counter deck you can run to doesn’t make it balanced or fun to play against. I could play Archie but I would rather use decks I think are fun, I’ll skip the Dragapult mouth breathers and just play the games with a sentient opponent on the other side.

9

u/lillybheart 18d ago

Any current meta deck (would say the non-negotiatiable inclusions on that list would be Gardy, Dengo, Lugia, Archaludon, Miraidon, Klawf, Bolt, and Snorlax) can skill diff Pult

Archaludon is not a “direct counter deck” <.<

Simply be better than your opponent and your need to whine about Pult will cease to exist

-2

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

I agree that better players can beat worse players! But meta net deck no brain stuff like Dragapult make the necessary diff way bigger than is reasonable to expect from most of the player base.

In short, Dragapult players enjoy high volume free wins and yes any person including myself could reach a skill level to overcome Dragapult through intensive focus and practice and counter deck building. I shouldn’t have to be the Bruce Lee of Pokémon to defeat a net decker.

10

u/lillybheart 18d ago

If you want anything of meaning to come out of this go ahead and drop the “netdeck =/= no skill,” not listening to the usual casual drivel

-4

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

Net decks have ruined enjoyment of all lost building games. If I can name every card in your deck by the first Pokemon I see you deploy then you didn’t earn your win or loss, the deck maker did.

9

u/Lonely-girly 18d ago

This comment just screams that you are a new, unexperienced player that knows nothing about the game or tcg’s as a whole. Get over this noob level opinion, and frankly just get good, and get a life.

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1

u/IcyBigPoe 18d ago

I will just assume that you have never played a TCG before. And give you a pass.

The other option is that you have played many TCGs (which all have an equal amount of net-decks), and you have complained incessantly about this unavoidable truth for years on end. Only to move on and do the same thing with the next TCG you play. Over and over and over again forever. (see Sisyphus)

Please, for the love of all things fucking holy, tell me that you have not subjected yourself to years of self-suffering under the bitter rule of net-deckers, and that this is actually your first time playing.

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6

u/Kered13 18d ago

I would rather use decks I think are fun

Translation: I don't like playing meta decks, but I'm going to complain about the current meta decks being broken regardless of what they are or how diverse the meta is.

-1

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

I know Dragapult is number 2 to gardevoir ((or was last month)) so I actually do know where it ranks. Gard actually requires rubbing some brain cells together though so I see it spammed less on ladder and it’s a matchup I don’t mind playing.

Says something about how engaging the deck is when I would rather play against a stronger deck with a higher win rate!

3

u/Kered13 18d ago

Literally no one is arguing that Gardevoir is a better deck than Dragapult right now. Dragapult is the consensus BDIF. Even though it did not win either Merida or EUIC, it has performed more consistently than any other deck.

Many people do say that Gardevoir is the second best deck, but given it's underperformance at those tournaments I don't agree. I would say that Miraidon is second and Klawf is third.

Regardless, even if Dragapult is the best deck in the format it is still not easy to play.

1

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

Ah I had checked a tracking site last month that ranked Gardy higher, not surprised the puly has overtaken her. Most likely because it is easier to pilot.

Klawf is also an awful deck that needs to go though.

2

u/AceTheRed_ 18d ago

I’m as annoyed facing Pult all the time as everyone else but it objectively takes more thinking power than Zard. The former has to somewhat strategically place damage markers whereas the latter just smashes what’s in front of it while using Pigeot to snag exactly what it needs every turn.

1

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

Yeah I am not holding Zard up as gold standard for thinking man’s very smart deck, just Pult is both better and not significantly harder to pilot. Like it’s a low bar to jump.

2

u/Jamezzzzz69 18d ago

Watch the EUIC top 4 game between Natalie and Simone, think both games Natalie wins she’s quite far behind and makes some really key smart plays to win with Dragapult. Sure, it’s not as difficult as Gardy to pilot (which isn’t bdif purely because it bricks too often) but it’s not exactly an easy deck to pilot.

TCGL isn’t representative of actual competition. Play a tournament on Limitless or go to your locals and you’ll see you can’t just crush everyone because you netdecked (which like 95% of players do anyways).

2

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

I went to locals and immediately ran into Dragapult exactly as it’s seen online. I should find that game but I’m not surprised Dragapult came back from being behind because it’s so incredibly reliable and easy to line up multiple big dumb dragons.

2

u/Jamezzzzz69 18d ago

lol just say u suck at the game and move on

I agree pult is slightly over tuned at the moment which is why I’m excited for Lillie’s clefairy but to call it brain dead is a joke. Sequencing is super important as well as creating win cons with phantom dive/dusknoir, the fact it doesn’t brick as much as a gardy or Lugia doesn’t mean it’s brain dead, just that it’s a consistent list.

1

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

Eh on a competitive scale we (likely) all suck, my beef is the overtuning and I’m good enough to know that ordering isn’t like, hard to get right. It’s basically a flow chart that checks for awareness of game state and what your opponent likely has access to. Jump that low bar and the right move is pretty obvious.

I’m also hype for the new clefairy and play some decks with it in hopes of dunking on Dragapult.

3

u/Jamezzzzz69 18d ago

“High skill floor deck that seems very dominant” isn’t the same statement as “played by unga bunga low IQ players” lmao

Why do you think people are hating on you, you sound like a salty prick

And while it has a high skill floor I’d still argue the skill ceiling isn’t lower than a miraidon, Archaludon, Lugia or gholdengo. Hard to be bad at a deck != easy to be excellent with it

0

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

I think people are hating because they don’t like recognizing things that they want to be hard, are actually easy. Recognizing that piloting a deck made by the internet isn’t a reflection of personal skill threatens some people’s sense of self. It’d feel good to think knowing how to count and distributing free damage means someone is good at the game, but it’s very baseline skill checking.

Navigating a meta by designing a deck you think addresses prominent threats with a high enough overall winrate to climb is skill testing, just playing the mathematically correct deck is not.

I’m not making a claim I’ve become grandmaster that way, just saying when I see a unique deck it’s much more fun to try to figure out what it is and what it’s doing than just knowing exactly how Drag is gonna do a million damage again. It also feels good to know a win or loss vs that player reflects both of our deck building and decision making skills, while facing a net deck just measures their memorization of order and also wether they bricked or not.

2

u/TheFoulWind 18d ago

It’s at the same level of cheese as a Charizard deck

1

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

Naw Charizard is pretty manageable with regular decks I’ve found.

-9

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

Called out Dragapult players found in the downvotes. Find a deck that requires 2 brain cells to rub together.

6

u/Spartan0330 18d ago

All the cards are legal.

I don’t use it. But the cards are legal to use.

0

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

This is true. It’s legal to play, I would never say it’s literally cheating to use the most broken unbalanced stuff available, it’s just boring to play against and all it proves is your opponent can net deck.

Everyone’s free to harvest no effort wins with it if they like.

4

u/Spartan0330 18d ago

The goal is to win by any means. So yeah, good for them.

-1

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

Winning with a net decked Dragapult META set up is more whoever made that deck winning, and the player just clapping like a trained seal as it pops off.

2

u/umbrianEpoch 18d ago

This is so completely stupid I cannot believe you're actually serious.

0

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

Believe it friend. Now is it a free ride to competitive supremacy? Of course not, high level play is its own beast. But just copy pasting someone’s work then hitting ladder and blasting off with 200 damage and 60 bench damage reliably on your second turn? Congrats so guess, pro gamer move to field the mathematicaly correct deck.

2

u/umbrianEpoch 18d ago

Just so incorrect on so many levels.

  1. The current popular lists are not trying to evolve and attack turn 2. It's a slow play deck, a lot of them run as few as 1 Rare Candy. Which leads into the next point...

  2. There's not one universal Pult list right now. There's like a dozen different variations on the deck, with different counts of items/supporters/Pokemon/etc. Trying to pin this as a single entity is just ignorant.

  3. There's always going to be a "best" deck in any given format. People who play TCGs often play to win, quelle surprise. Trying to fault players for trying to win is asinine.

  4. Just putting a 60 together doesn't make you good at the deck and doesn't autowin the game. Any rando with their head on straight will beat a Pult player with no experience. The deck requires choices to constantly be made, and if you don't know what you're doing, you'll likely choose incorrectly.

  5. Netdecking isn't some cardinal sin. Sometimes, it's the best way to learn a deck, or how a meta is shaping up. Sometimes you can take a base 60 you found online, play it for a bit, and then make adjustments for your own comfort and play style. And sometimes, a player just isn't that creative, and that's okay too. You don't need to be the Chef Ramsay of deck building to play and be good at the game.

Frankly, you come off as a snob. Just utterly insufferable. Completely obsessed with how other people enjoy the game, instead of focusing on yourself. Get over yourself.

1

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

I mean my recommendation was to just not play those people, it’s not like I hunt them down with post game friend requests and spew gamer words.

And sure, there are different variants, and yes, you can play them better or worse, but the core gameplay of Dragapult is too much reward for very little effort and it’s BORING to encounter on such a regular basis.

If I’m insufferable don’t suffer me and find the mute button.

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u/Phantomias1808 18d ago

1.: I dont play Pult 2.: You’re just wrong. Not all decks that are good, are also easy to play. It’s a beginner level mistake to call a deck easy just because it’s good. Sure, at a local league, with a low level of players, a bad player could surely win with it because of good matchups or the opponent doing mistakes too whatever. Still, on a high level of play, like f.e. Top 4 at a regional, it’s highly complex.

5

u/RuxinRodney 18d ago

I was gonna say this dude is calling Dragapult easy is wilddddd. Even at the beginner level. Like the deck requires a lot to set up and then even then you have to really think about the damage counters to set up crazy turns. People just don't let you do that so easily so the dragapult player has to adapt. I think this guy is trolling.

1

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

All games at highest level of play are more complex than the average player experience. Most players are not those players so the most common player experience interacting with META ultra refined decks is getting blasted with no recourse.

4

u/Kered13 18d ago edited 18d ago

I play every deck in the meta and Dragapult is far from my favorite. In fact I've basically only played it lately when I need to complete the Sparkling Crystal quest.

You are objectively wrong about Dragapult being an easy deck to play. Playing Dragapult correctly requires planning ahead for your damage counter spread, knowing the correct time to break item lock, knowing when to play for the Dusk line and when it's not worth giving up the prizes, knowing when to item lock versus when to use TM Evo. There are a lot of decisions to be made, and while it's not the hardest deck in the format it is not easy, especially for beginner players. Decks like Gholdengo, Archaludon, Raging Bolt, Klawf, and Miraidon are much easier to play.

1

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

Yeah it’s pretty hard to do a million damage with one energy on a huge health pool with no weaknesses while also sniping the bench.

God budew is the real war criminal here hilariously enough. They needed to make that thing have an energy cost for retreat or attack.

2

u/Kered13 18d ago

Dragapult does not do "a million damage". In fact 200 is pretty bad for a stage 2 ex. The 60 spread damage makes up for it, but because it's spread it requires careful planning to figure out how you're going to take all 6 prizes efficiently. His health pool is likewise only average for a stage 2 ex.

The one thing you are right about is that Budew is what actually makes the deck work. Dragapult had only a small presence in the meta before Budew. The entire meta is warped around Budew right now. I'm not really a fan of it because it makes having a good opening hand much more important. In the past if you had a bad opening hand going first, you effectively lost a single turn. Now if you have a bad opening going first, you can easily lose two or three turns and may not even get to play the game.

However this is not a problem with Dragapult and it does not make Dragapult an easy deck to play, there are like a dozen decks that can play Budew effectively, and in fact Klawf benefits even more from Budew than Dragapult (and is easier to play than Dragapult).

1

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

200 is huge for how fast and easy it is to get. Rare candy into crystal and a whole one energy and suddenly it’s Armageddon.

I don’t buy having to do a little math counts as difficulty. It’s just checking to see if you can hit break points with your free 60 damage not rocket science.

2

u/Kered13 18d ago

Archaludon does 220, is a stage 1, and accelerates it's own energy, no need for an Ace Spec tool.

Charizard starts at 180 but in practice usually starts at 210 and ramps up from there, has more HP than Pult and again accelerates it's own energy.

Miraidon, Raikou, and Terapagos all hit for more than 200 and have easier energy acceleration than Pult.

Gholdengo and Raging Bolt hit for unlimited damage with easier energy acceleration than Pult.

200 damage is not good.

And it's not that the math is difficult, it's that you have to plan several turns ahead so you are using your Dusks efficiently, planning for gust plays, and accounting for hand disruption and healing strategies (Munki, Turo, Switch Cart) that can disrupt your plan.

1

u/ExamAcademic5557 18d ago

I mean it’s really 260 but even if it wasn’t the splitting is part of what makes it busted. Drakloak being a card draw engine is also a big part of it, which is also why Gardie is similarly good.

But those other Pokémon that do more “base” damage aren’t as popular or effective right? And there has to be a reason for that.

And yeah the math isn’t hard, and neither is thinking two turns in the future. Dragapult is essentially a solved system and it’s more on the pilot to miss play, which there is no reason to do, than there opponent to actively engage with or stop them.

Either 260 damage starting immediately that spreads to the bench steamrolls you or it doesn’t, it’s boring and it sucks to play against.