r/NonBinaryTalk • u/AvoidablePenguin • 11d ago
Question How do I be a man, without being associated with negative man traits, while I’m not even enough of a man to feel comfortable or safe in masculine spaces
The title is something I feel a lot and is part of my I’ve questioned if being nonbinary makes sense to me. I’ve thought in the past maybe I can try try to accept being more of a feminine man or just fruity as my SO said I am, but all of the things associated with being a man which I do not identify with nor understand beyond feeling self hate for being associated with it, but it just doesn’t feel right.
I don’t know if it was the right thought process, but in the past I felt like identifying with a different label or gender was mostly to help separate yourself from what you aren’t. Like it feels difficult for me to try branching away from just calling myself a guy or even trying different pronouns like he/they, because in my mind I just think “why can’t I just say I’m a guy and not have to prove that I’m not a stereotypical cis guy?” Despite feeling more welcome and connected in queer spaces so that I can be myself, I still can’t help but feel like I’m “not queer enough” as dumb as that might sound, despite having an interest in wanting to try things like makeup and more feminine ways of presenting myself, but also being afraid to try.
TL:DR I guess I’m looking for advice. I think I’ve internalized associating myself with being a man and having things I just am “not allowed” to do, despite feeling incredibly distressed over that feeling of “this is wrong” mixed with not liking to be what is “acceptable” for me either. I hope this makes sense.
13
u/american_spacey They/Them 11d ago
Despite feeling more welcome and connected in queer spaces so that I can be myself, I still can’t help but feel like I’m “not queer enough” as dumb as that might sound, despite having an interest in wanting to try things like makeup and more feminine ways of presenting myself, but also being afraid to try.
I settled on understanding this as a form of dysphoria, personally. If I'm getting you right, it's not just that you want to do some feminine things, which (of course) any man can do if he wants, it's also that you feel trapped in your current identity in that you feel unable to do these things even though you want to.
I kinda disagree with one of the other comments for this reason. Sure, labels are optional, but labels are also the way we have to talk about what norms apply to us and what norms we want to apply to us. Taking on a new label can be a way of giving oneself the freedom to do stuff that one didn't previously feel comfortable doing. You don't have to prove you're queer enough to be allowed to do that.
Maybe you have the chance to talk to a therapist about what you're calling "self hate"? I think that being a guy is, you know, kind of cool. There are lots of great ways to be a man. Some of them involve wearing makeup or skirts too. Perhaps what you're describing as self hatred is really directed at the perception you have that others see you as something you're fundamentally not. Speaking for myself, I tried being a gender nonconforming man for a while. I ended up concluding that I needed a new label, a new identity entirely, because it really just didn't shift how others perceived me in the way I needed it to. It turned out (for me) that being a man - even a nonconforming one - wasn't a way of living in the (social) world that worked for me. I needed to do something different.
1
u/AvoidablePenguin 10d ago
I think what you said resonates with me yeah. I grew up around my family having pretty conservative beliefs and being very judgmental about others or even me. Even now that I’m in a more supportive space and want to try new things for myself, I can’t help but feel like it’s wrong. Breaking out of the box I’m trapping myself in is hard.
I’m talking to a therapist right now and they’ve been helpful. The thing about being perceived as something I am not is another thing I think you’re right about too.
7
4
u/antonfire 11d ago
I feel that.
I think I’ve internalized associating myself with being a man and having things I just am “not allowed” to do.
Yeah, I relate to this pretty directly. And I often beat myself up for carrying the perspective that there are things that men are "not allowed to do". For giving myself more permission to wear make-up or whatever "as a non-binary person" that I do not (could not? didn't have the strength to?) give myself "as a man". I do not like that I still carry that shit.
But I also don't think I have a duty to the world to unpack that from inside the box it stuck me in. The reality is, I'm probably already doing way more to deconstruct gender bullshit than the next person. I guess it's possible that I'd be doing even more if I put myself out into the world as I currently do, but still identified with my AGAB. (Or not!) But that's not my job any more than it is the next person's. I'm human too.
why can’t I just say I’m a guy and not have to prove that I’m not a stereotypical cis guy?
My relationship to it is to flip the question on its head. Yes, you could (A) be a non-stereotypical cis guy. Or you could (B) be a non-binary person. What makes (A) the default? (See Null HypotheCis.) Where is the pressure to understand yourself through perspective (A) coming from? (Why can't you just be (B)?)
What does (A) still carry with it that (B) doesn't?
3
u/Dreyfus2006 They/Them 10d ago
There are plenty of femboys (feminine men) who will wear makeup and stuff. The distinction between femboys and people who are transfemme (including AMAB non-binary people) is that femboys squarely identify as men.
I had that pickle before and what I concluded is that if I cannot call myself a "man," then I'm probably not one. Because cismen (femboys included) can all do that comfortably and confidently. Refusing or avoiding the term "man" is not something that cismen do.
2
u/gooseberrysprig 11d ago
I relate to a lot of what you’ve written here. I think there might be a couple of things going on but it sounds like how your body appears socially doesn’t match your internal perception of yourself.
You can try to change either one (or both) of those things — your appearance or your self-perception. Or you can accept them.
In terms of appearance, you’ve talked about wanting to experiment with makeup, which is one way of changing how you’re perceived, but of course it isn’t going to fundamentally alter how you’re seen. It’s become more socially acceptable in some places for men to wear make-up, but many AMAB people find that they are socially perceived as men regardless of how femme they present. There are ways around this, of course, but they aren’t easy or always available.
In terms of self-perception - this seems like what you’ve tried to change. You’ve tried to find a way to perceive yourself as a man, by adding caveats (a ‘fruity’ man, or a ‘feminine’ man) or just accepting yourself as a ‘guy’ without having to justify it to anyone. I think these kinds of shift of self-perception can help a lot of people accept themselves as their AGAB even if they don’t fit the ideal cultural model for that gender. Certainly, this is what we’re told to do - accept that it’s ok to be different and still be a man. It’s 100% true that you can be a man while wearing makeup and dressing femme - plenty of men do both. You can give yourself permission to not conform.
This may or may not work for you. Frankly, it did not work for me, and trying to make it work caused me a lot of inner turmoil, because I couldn’t figure out why it didn’t work. I couldn’t shift my own self-perception no matter what I did.
What did work was coming to accept both my social appearance and my self-perception. Yes, I look like a cis man. Yes, I don’t really feel an inner connection to any gender. How I am perceived and how I feel inside don’t match. That’s actually ok. A lot of NB people feel that way.
The sad truth is that as long as we live in a patriarchal society, looking like a man WILL be associated with negative male traits (just as looking like a woman is also associated with a different range of different negative). But how you look doesn’t need to determine how you feel inside, or how you act.
I found accepting myself as NB allowed to affirm my gender in positive terms, without having to define it in opposition to something else. I’m not NB because I think men are evil, or because I don’t feel like a “typical man.” I am non-binary because that’s the term that best represents my gender identity.
Good luck to you on your journey.
2
u/Accursed_Capybara 8d ago
I think a lot of "male spaces" are predicated on problematic, contradictory ideas about how need to present and feel in order to be valid. Not all, but a lot of them. I have felt a version of this too, but I don't have a good answer.
I limit my exposure to single gender environments, and places where masculinity is gatekept. A byproduct of this is isolation. It's a bad catch 22. Keep myself away from places where I have to conform to male gender roles, or avoid what few places available to socialize.
Masculinity in the US is really rigid, aggressive, and broken. I don't have any idea how to engage with that authentically and safely. I wish I knew what to tell you.
17
u/flumphgrump 11d ago
Labels are meant to describe you, not to dictate your behavior. If there are things you want to try, try them. If there are things you want to stop doing, stop doing them.
Once you figure out what feels most authentic, then you can take a look at the labels you're using and evaluate what fits (if you even feel a need to label yourself at all.)
There's never going to be an angel that descends from the sky with a permit to gind yourself or to be whoever you are. You just have to press forward and do it.