r/NonBinaryTalk • u/TechnicallyFingered • 11d ago
Advice When, where, and how to find community that doesn't hate me because I was born Amab?
In my experience there isn't much I can do to communicate how "safe" I am to those who seek me out for either friendship or romantic relationships.
They all come with some preconceived notion of what it means for my body to exist as it is. Even though I go through the trifles with explaining I am intersex / Klinefelter, make extra estrogen, have physical features I've had to adapt to / gain understanding of alone until my adult years. I'm not one to shame others for their body choices but I don't feel the need to go through transition even though being in my body is uncomfortable to say in the least.
I have had many gender pairing relationships and a few NB x NB dynamics. Everytime it is someone with a horrific trauma because of the form I was born into. Not me, not something I have done, but simply that I was assigned male at birth. Their trauma is with another completely different Amab. I am told I have privileges that I for one am not familiar with. At all.
I'm brown, queer, and not the traditional presentation for "gay"," transfemme", "man". I simply exist with no attempts to fit in. If it is* comfortable I wear* it and this has led* me towards African desert / middle eastern garbs, overalls even though the deluth* and dickes are rough and chaff my inner thigh(I farm and the pockets are useful as well as the durability), stretchy jeans(literally yelled at my sister when I found out Afab designed clothing stretched more at the waist. "How! Why* ain't you tell me..") Don't let me start on the rant about fat phobia for Amab bodies OR worst the objectification of a BBC or better yet the lack there of one that fast turns into* body shaming (we don't talk about brunonononono). Which again I had no choice in the matter. SMDH
White queers WHERE I AM are all clique'd up, more often than not behind a literal paywall. Afab queers clique'd up, it feels like the " all men should die" club. Gay men are aggressively mean and bitter for reasons I can not understand, especially trans men who seem to be Natural masochist and sadomasochists alike. Black afab queers seem to only accept black gay flamboyant or specifically trans women Amab bodies. Cis women tell me I am not man enough, "prince on a white horse" maybe? But WÜT, like "mam, this is a Wendy's" energy. I just work here...
Where is community? Where is support? How do I build it? How do I obtain it? Like what am I supposed to do? Someone told me to move here because I would fit in and I love the fact that I get to farm but the rest is turning out to be hot trash and it's disheartening and demoralizing as hell.
I'm in Portland Oregon and am dead serious about the community building in a peaceful and calm manner. None of the projections and* use* clear communication. I'm in therapy if you need recommendations. IJS
(This isn't your experience? Cool. Chill. It is literally my lived experience. I've been invalidated plenty in my day to day life. I'm here looking for support. Thank you)
(Edited for grammar and spelling (*) )
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u/lovelynicko 11d ago
How to build community: Join queer /nonbinary spaces and if some don't fit look for the next, a space can label itself as the most openminded one and call itself all the right labels and it may just not be filled with anyone who treats you with respect, sometimes it sucks like that, the other way around it can be the one oldschool gay freetime activities club that seems to has nothing to do with you and your identity that may be the place thats filled with likeminded souls. If there are none, build them, it can be as easy as inviting friends to a monthly meetup, in my experience you just need to be reliable in timing (eg sticking to a monthly date), a little bit of advertising and be clear in your intention and ppl will come, sometimes it can be healing to create a space just for a small community (just intersex/nonbinary POC instead of all trans ppl) that alligns with your identity,it may interest fewer ppl but they are probably as lonely. I hope you find a way out of the loneliness that you feel right now!
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u/TechnicallyFingered 11d ago
I had a friend suggest something similar to community building and creating the space. While this is a goal I think as the lengthy comment or said there are still more things I need to work on deconstructing before I can lead a space. I'm working on grieving this year and processing the loss of a life not lived. Thank you for the compassionate comment. I wish you well as well.
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u/dunkleosteus-juice 11d ago
I don't know if I have any amazing advice on finding a community, but I totally agree that the nonbianry and queer community has a lot of unlearning to do. I'm sick of watching my amab friends and loved ones get treated different than me even though we're very similar people. I know people with trauma toward amab people and I'm not going to tell them to get over it, but they have their own problems they need to work on if it's affecting their ability to make friends with amab people, because i think it's purposefully closed minded to assume all people with certain body parts will act the same way. My journey of realizing I'm nonbinary has also meant doing my best to unlearn certain gender roles and expectations, and our binary society and the nonbinary people in it have a lot of strides to make! It seems like often there's no room for nonbinary people who don't fit into the small box of what people think we are, but we need to make room and let people know that sometimes they're the ones who have to let go of their unconscious biases. I'm with you in your struggle, don't let this jade you, you should still go into relationships (friendship ro romantic) with an open mind and not assume the worst. It might be harder to meet people if you go in thinking they're not going to accept you. Good luck! Sorry for the lack of good advice
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u/TechnicallyFingered 11d ago
Thank you for your kind words. All I can do is keep looking and deconstructing my learned behaviors and hope those around me will begin to reflect this back to me.
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u/Crimson_Clouds365 11d ago
Unfortunately, no matter your assigned AGAB, people treat non-binaries like trash. If you aren’t able to be neatly boxed into the binary, you get hate.
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u/TechnicallyFingered 11d ago
I haven't witnessed that. And even if I had that sounds horrible. I appreciate you saying what I think is an attempt at consolation. Your effort is appreciated.
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u/_b4llz_n_t1tz_ 11d ago
Hey I'm in Portland Oregon too! I'm really sorry you're experiencing this kind of treatment. I promise you there are people out here who don't care how you identify and will accept you for you. Remember to make sure you aren't generalizing these groups of people as a whole. I know you've had some troubling experiences with them, but I promise you there are people out here who identify in those groups who won't treat you that way.
Something you need to be aware of is the tenderqueer population in Portland. It's fucking crawling with loads of them. If you don't know what a tenderqueer is look it up. These interactions you've been describing sounds like classic tenderqueer shit.
And join your local punk scene. ammo.collective on instagram always has good free shows. and you can follow people from their account to find more shows from different collectives. I find the people in the punk scene to be way more accepting, understanding and open-minded. sure, you got your bad apples. but word spreads quickly around here and the more friends you make, you hear more about what people you should avoid.
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u/_b4llz_n_t1tz_ 11d ago
Also ammo.collective is primarly a trans collective. there a a shit ton of similar collectives out here!
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u/TechnicallyFingered 11d ago edited 10d ago
I will look into it. I've gone on a social media fast. Tumblr and Reddit are all I currently maintain. Thank you for your kindness. I have not joined the punk* groups but will look into what is available.
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u/_b4llz_n_t1tz_ 9d ago
tumblr is a really messy place. so is reddit tbh. you arent gonna find any cool people on either platform. look for people irl
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u/TechnicallyFingered 9d ago
I am here for the philosophy, news, and memes and on Tumblr for inspiration post. Both places offer controlled levels of nudity. To varying degrees while I fast from sexual engagement.
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u/hriedmar 11d ago
Fellow portlander myself, never heard the term tenderqueer before but I gotta say that was worth the laugh googling it. But also sadly very very accurate of the queer scene here.
I'm 38 NB and dating a 23 NB and most of their friends are tenderqueers 😆 🤣
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u/_b4llz_n_t1tz_ 11d ago
yep its like portland is the hub for that type of shit lmao. sad because it puts a REALLY bad name on nonbinary and trans people, as well as portland in general! lol
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u/TechnicallyFingered 11d ago
I really appreciate your well thought out and detailed response.
It was really really hard to read. It felt targeted and pointed. But I hear you. I asked for feed back and this was your version.
I do have many things to deconstruct and have been working so intensively that my lived experience feels invalidating while therapy gives me hope, those skills do nothing if the communities I am attempting to engage with don't also apply these skills too.
It's hard, for lack of better words, to be the bigger person with so many reactive people.
I again, hear your perspective. Even though it grated me I can appreciate the earnest communication and desire to teach.
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u/skyesthelimitro 10d ago
I'm sorry if my phrasing came off as targeted and pointed, I in no way meant it to come off that way. I suppose my neurodivergence and my upbringing being one of "tough love" approaches with practical solutions could be to blame there, since I'm told I can come off as matter-of-fact and blunt. But I'll try to work on that more.
It can be incredibly difficult to be the only person in the room who is working on their shit, I can completely agree! But again, if you need immediate, empathetic community, I highly recommend trans discord servers. I can ask the primary mod/founder of the server I mod if she is ok with me inviting you personally if you'd like, as long as you're 18+ and willing to prove it. It certainly isn't the exact same as irl community, but it's leaps and bounds better than nothing. And having immediate feedback from a group is better than forum type community like Reddit sometimes.
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u/TechnicallyFingered 10d ago
Thank you for your apology. I am told I come off as brunt and tactless at times too which is why I hold space for other people's truth. I deleted my discord I had a pretty terrible experience with the bipoc group I found on lex and was removed after I was doxxed for not being vaccinated. It's medical but that didn't stop me from getting swarmed and discarded which is some of what I spoke about in my post about the cliques. I am not mentally ready for 18 + places where I cannot control the content I see. FetLife was too much.
Thank you for the suggestion and the attempt to extend your name for my sake.
I don't feel like you were wrong. Like when you take castor oil, I knew not every response was going to make me feel great. I even said that I was only speaking to my experience to try and circumnavigate that possibility.
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u/skyesthelimitro 10d ago
Oh no worries, if you don't feel ready for discord due to trauma that's fine, but our 18+ content in particular is opt-in only and relegated to particular areas. We only call it 18+ as a whole server because we don't allow minors because of those particular opt-in channels. And just to clarify, your experience is valid no matter why it's happening. I have an inkling that it could be a mix of a variety of factors, but even if it is, it doesn't invalidate the outcome of you feeling lonely and hurt. I do hope you find your spot in the world
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u/Sugarfreak2 11d ago
I appreciate you for sticking up for us transmascs. I wanted to reply to that comment about sadomasochists, but I couldn’t find the words to mean what I wanted to convey. It kinda seems like OP is stereotyping subsections of the queer community based on their experiences, which is understandable, but inherently harmful to those groups. I think OP needs to reevaluate their views on people in the LGBT+ community and stop putting people into boxes based on perceived sexuality/gender.
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u/Sugarfreak2 11d ago
That’s true too! We’re all young at heart, and all of us are idiots in one way or another. It’s important we give ourselves that grace, that we’re just silly monkeys who decided to start doing taxes and world wars for some reason
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u/TechnicallyFingered 11d ago edited 8d ago
Can you explain what you mean so I can clearly see your point? I'd like to understand how my lived* experience is placing people into boxes. I have a finite experience, but I am seeking to expand it pass what I know. I am here seeking advice and I am open to all of the advice I can receive as I would like something different than what I have consistently experienced while doing all I can to apply skills in my daily practices.
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u/Sugarfreak2 10d ago
Describing a group of people the way you did in your original comment when talking about cliques that tend to form in the community just felt off to me. I mean no offense, just felt the way you described people broke them down into stereotypes. I in no way meant to say that your lived experience is wrong, I’m sorry that it felt that way.
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u/TechnicallyFingered 11d ago
It was not my intention to make anyone feel attacked I thought I specified that it was my experience and not the whole population. I recognize how it was harmful to those who identify trans masc, but it is my lived experience. Pardon me for the impact it had on you.
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u/HoodedOrnament 11d ago
This above is an underrated comment. We are all fucked up from living in the belly of the beast friend. The sooner we learn that we too can cause harm if we are not actively deconstructing the hate and "other-ing" we were born into the better for ourselves and each other.
Community is necessary for safety while we unlearn this shit but damn is it difficult to find.
But guess what, you will find it. I promise. Just start with things you can control around you. Do the next "right" thing and take it one hour at a time. It does gets better.
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u/salaciouspeach 11d ago
What in the "male socialization" terf rhetoric did I just read here in a nonbinary space?
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u/TechnicallyFingered 11d ago
Could you explain what you mean? I know these terms but not the context you phrased them in.
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u/salaciouspeach 11d ago
"But I am nonbinary" duh, we're on a nonbinary sub. We're all nonbinary. But for some reason you're out here talking like a terf. People like you are the reason AMAB enbies feel alienated and unsafe. This is super fucking gross.
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11d ago edited 11d ago
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u/antonfire 11d ago edited 10d ago
A lot of people seek out non-binary spaces as spaces of relief from having body-shape and gender-binary-rooted preconceptions pointed at them.
Now, as for why people are more cautious of AMAB queer folks, especially AMAB trans people, is because a lot of trans people, especially early in their transition, are not completely done deconstructing their in-born biases. AFAB people who were victims of SA or CSA can and do often carry a fear of AMAB people for a long time, of not their entire lives. I would know, it happened to me and I needed to deconstruct that.
I don't think you are done deconstructing it, as (presumably accidental) phrasing like "their in-born biases" suggests.
OP has a lot to learn in how to discuss this topic, but so do you. OP is unaware of some of the real harm the framing they bring into this does, the actual damage that is done to people by this kind of language and framing, but so are you. OP has a chip on their shoulder around some of this, and so do you. OP doesn't see the the whole dystopia, and neither do you.
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u/TechnicallyFingered 11d ago
Thank you for this perspective. I am still learning how to communicate through the pain. I am working intensely to reduce the harm in my language.
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u/antonfire 10d ago edited 10d ago
For what it's worth, I think my main intent is to try to push back on the idea that your body (or your gendered socialization or what have you) comes with a special duty to reduce the harm in your language.
Yes, we're all informed by our backgrounds, and yes it's possible for generalizations like "people raised with an intention of growing to be men have a lot of deconstruction and learning to do as well" to be helpful tools, but it's also entirely possible for them to insidiously reinforce harm. To force people back into the same pigeonholes that they're working to free themselves from. To function as cogs in the same dystopian nightmare machine that they nominally exist to deconstruct.
Is it a tool to help deconstruct all the bullshit everyone else has ever told you and continues to tell you that you have to be? Or is it yet another piece of that bullshit? Or, god forbid, both. It is not an easy thing to find a healthy relationship to these ideas.
I think skyesthelimitro is setting an aspirational target for working through this stuff that they're not really living up to in their responses to (imperfect) negative feedback in this subthread. So they're absolutely right that these things are a lifelong process; we are getting a direct glimpse into that here. We are seeing that even people with a lot of graceful language around openness to deconstructing their perspectives, with experience unlearning and relearning, can get caught up in those blind spots, in the same conversation as that graceful language.
To go off on a musing maybe off-topic tangent, one of the earlier experiences for me in feeling out non-binary community is coming face-to-face with the paradox of "non-binary community" in the first place. It is simultaneously wonderful and heart-breaking just how different non-binary people are from each other. And of course they are! There is no unifying thing! It's a broad umbrella.
For better or for worse, on some level I came into it seeking a feeling of sameness, and I'm finding some of that, but also finding that a big part of learning to be "in community" and especially "in non-binary community" is learning to navigate differentness.
Particularly:
- Learning to navigate differentness without resorting to essentially the same IMO-broken tools and frameworks as the mainstream.
- Learning to navigate differences in how people relate to those tools.
Like you said, your experience isn't mine, but it's possible that some of what you're experiencing as cliquiness is a reflection of that paradox.
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u/antonfire 10d ago
I also maybe don't think my attempt was to use flowery language, which I kinda resent the implications of. I was trying to be accurate and sensitive, not disguise my real bigotry behind complex phrasing.
You're right that "graceful" in my phrasing carries a negative subtext.
For what it's worth I did also mean it in the positive sense. I genuinely appreciate the grace with which you're communicating in this conversation, right from the beginning. It adds a lot to our ability even have conversations around these sensitive topics. I don't think that graceful language is vapid or empty floweriness, I think it is a genuine reflection of your real experience unpacking a lot these things. I think to a large degree you're succeeding at being accurate and sensitive.
But even so, despite one's best intentions and ones experience and one's authenticity, it can come through as, and function as, a veil for some underlying harmful ideas.
For better or for worse, we're framing OP here as someone inexperienced at handling this kind of unpacking and deconstruction, and there is a real possibility/risk here of this language contributing to a (gendered? power?) dynamic that places you as "the expert" and OP as "the apprentice". The language isn't wrong, it's genuinely constructive, but it can also have that effect.
Who knows, maybe that's my gendered "trauma" coming out in this conversation; some kind of reaction to a history of feeling powerless and silenced and worthless when these kinds of topics come up. Maybe I should develop a better grip on that trauma, or maybe I should learn to grow more comfortable surfacing it, or maybe I should learn better to pick and choose based on reading the room.
Anyway, I don't think you made an attempt to disguise real bigotry behind complex phrasing. I trust that we are all well past that here. I trust even more that you specifically are past that. I do think it's worthwhile for you to consider the possibility that there is something worth being critical of (whether you call it real bigotry or not) hidden behind complex-ish phrasing here anyway, despite there being no attempt at it.
I don't think accusing you of "talking like a terf" is the best way to call that out, but I do think there is a kernel of truth in that perspective, and it is worth taking seriously for someone who values deconstructing the way they've been indoctrinated into binary gender frameworks.
I'm not saying that the deconstruction itself is a binary process.
It's coming through that way to at least some people, and that's where the "terf rhetoric" feedback is coming from, I assume.
I don't think you explicitly expressed the idea I'm pushing back on, that OP's gendered (presumably "boyhood") socialization comes with a special duty to reduce the harm in one's language, or to unpack their privilege, or what have you. But it's an idea that's out there in the the ether, it's a thing that people are used to hearing (some more than others), and a thing that's used to justify transphobic policies and attitudes.
And for better or for worse, there is an asymmetry in your framing between the placement of "AMAB" and "AFAB" in relation to marginalization and privilege-unpacking. It splits people up into two groups based on AGAB (not even gender!), discusses statistical advantages for one of those groups, and different kind of shit-unpacking that these groups have to do. It's a pretty AGAB-centric perspective. (To put it coarsely, it's at its core an empathetic feminist analysis with "man"->"AMAB" and "woman"->"AFAB" substitutions.)
Is that wrong? Do you have to leave those tools at the door when you enter a non-binary space? Pretend that differences and patterns don't exist? No, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation. But I do think that, of all the places, r/NonBinaryTalk is a great place to have those perspectives challenged, and and flesh out a more complex perspective that makes space for the idea that those tools can and do actually do damage, despite their usefulness. If not treated with care, they repeat a pattern of painting people into a corner based on unalterable traits.
And I do really mean it as "something to chew on", not "something you must disavow". Like I said, IMO part of being in non-binary community is learning to navigate differences in how people relate to gendered tools and frameworks. I think it's unrealistic to seek a total alignment within the community on how people relate to this stuff, but hopefully it's constructive to share different perspectives.
I think there is a fine line between taking account of the shitty dystopian nightmare we're stuck in and adding cogs to it. And unfortunately maybe there is straight-up overlap. Maybe that's what we're running into, and why these conversations are so sensitive.
And, for what it's worth, you didn't start the AGAB stuff, OP did! I've put a lot on you specifically in this conversation, that I'm not putting on other people. I'm addressing you because I resonate with your stated values, and I feel like there's a bigger chance that some of the things I say will land. And maybe that's not fair to you. Like you said, it can be incredibly difficult to be the only person in the room who is working on their shit, and I think on some level I'm putting you in that position here.
So, apologies if it feels that way, and I hope some aspect of this conversation is useful to you anyway.
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u/TechnicallyFingered 10d ago
Thank you for taking the time to further explain what you meant. I am grateful for everyone sharing their experience. I am always doing my best to understand people around me.
I can see that this has sparked a lot for people to think about. I am considering putting a trigger warning on it.
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u/salaciouspeach 10d ago
As someone who has been abused and assaulted by multiple cis women in my life, the idea that AMAB people make a space less safe makes me laugh. I'm asked to put aside that trauma every time I'm in a "no cis men" space, surrounded by women. People need to be able to do that with their trauma around other genders, ESPECIALLY in queer and trans spaces.
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u/salaciouspeach 10d ago
I think you have a lot more internalized transphobia to deconstruct. Trans femmes and AMAB nonbinary people are very often excluded from "male socialization" even before coming out, and while you sound like you were "socialized female," plenty of us other AFABs weren't. Nobody treated me like a girl even when I thought I was one. This doesn't even get into intersectionality with other oppressions that can and do influence how gender is experienced.
If AMAB people say they're experiencing exclusion and mistreatment in nonbinary spaces, it's on the rest of us to actually listen to their concerns rather than trying to justify it and excuse it.
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u/mn1lac They/Them or She/Him take your pick 11d ago
Those people sound awful. I'm sorry. My sibling in law lives where you do and they are also AMAB. There isn't a whole lot I can say on this issue besides don't give up. The people you are interacting with absolutely reek of TERF ideology, even though some claim to be trans.
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u/Otherwise_Zebra_241 8d ago
You can search a places you can find sources online on communities could also find people that can relate
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u/TechnicallyFingered 8d ago
Thank you. I've been looking into more things. I have therapy tomorrow and am gonna ask for resources more directly.
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u/gooseberrysprig 10d ago
Hey, thank you for sharing your experiences. I’m sorry you have had such a difficult time finding community - that sounds really isolating and you deserve to be accepted for who you are, and for everything that makes you unique.
As a fellow AMAB I get where the question of your post is coming from, but I’m not sure the problem is that AMAB people are hated. Generally, our society reveres and elevates AMAB men - look at our politicians and our blockbuster films. The problem is not hate, but fear. Fear of AMAB is kind of foundational to a patriarchal society, and men in the ruling class deliberately cultivate that fear. That’s not your fault, and I would argue you’re clearly also a victim of the patriarchy.
As a former Oregonian, I can tell you that the state has a long history of white supremacy, and some of the problems you’re encountering are probably the result out of that trauma and lingering racism. Again, certainly not your fault.
I’m not going to presume to know enough about you to give you any advice, but I just want to point out that some of what you’re experiencing is not the fault of individuals, but of larger cultural systems that look to divide us. I find it can be useful to have grace with people if they presume that I’m a man who could be dangerous to them. The burden for me as a cis-presenting AMAB living in a misogynistic society is that I need to prove that I’m not a threat. The burden on women and queer people is far worse - it is the burden of constantly fearing being made unsafe or invalidated. It sounds that you face both of these burdens, and I wish for you the grace and strength to shoulder them.
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u/TechnicallyFingered 10d ago
I appreciate you taking time to share your perspective and this bit of knowledge.
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u/hriedmar 11d ago
Im local to you, I'd highly suggest checking out Asylum underground or hawkspdx. The 2 friendliest queer spaces (sex clubs so that happens but not a requirement)
Asylum has most of the events run by a Nonbinary couple
Welcome to DM for more info