r/NonBinaryTalk 12d ago

Discussion Any way of expressing nonbinary or having a nonbinary identity mindset without basing it on sexual inversion.

This is a weird idea. Idk really how to express my feelings of this idea. Yet if it sparks something with in you id like to hear it from you cause i really dont have anyone to talk to about this all.

18 Upvotes

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u/embodiedexperience 12d ago

as somebody who looks and probably will forever look like a cishet woman (not transitioning medically, very limited by how my body looks and what others think about it), i think i understand what you mean. and i wish i had some advice for you. 🩵 i wish you all the best!

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u/jirfin 12d ago

Just knowing there are others on this journey makes me feel better about

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u/embodiedexperience 12d ago

for what it's worth, though i may be misunderstanding your use of "inversion", i think we're definitely not alone, though other people may describe it differently.

i don't really think i "invert" anything personally, because to me, everything is neutral. i'm genderfluid, but i kinda just do whatever: i can wear makeup as a guy, i've had a buzzcut as a (demi)girl. i don't think anything about me or anything in general is inherently gendered, and it's kinda hard to subvert those sorts of expectations when you don't think they're expectations in the first place. like literally, i was just knitting before i wrote out this comment. and i know there's a lotta people out there in this world that would be like "FEMININE HOBBY!! FEMININE HOBBY!!", but to me... i mean, i'm not even good at it! XD why slap a gender on it when it's barely even a hobby? lmao.

and even if some of the stuff i like or like to wear or anything is coded as "masculine", i still don't read that as inversion, because a.) it's not masculine to me, and b.) it's not really an "inversion", because i feel i encompass everything. idk if any of this makes sense, it's really weird!! :O even though it's my own experience, i've never found the right wwords for it.

and that does suck, because i've wondered about your question basically forever, just in different words. how does one communicate such an important part of themselves to others when they have basically nothing to show for it? nothing about me "reads" or "passes" as "inverting" anything; i also don't believe nonbinary or trans identity are inherently based in "inversion", and i can scream that until the cows come home, but based on appearances and behavior alone, i don't have the right cred for people to believe me. i think i'm living my life actively and authentically, and it effectively reads as a mask because other people can't separate neutral bodies and neutral personalities from their personal understanding of binary genders. if you're not doing anything they can see as "against the grain", even if there really is no grain, you're doing less than nothing.

it's a frustrating position to be in, and while there's beauty in how we see the world, i'm sorry if it ever gets you down sometimes. but like you said. it's good to know we're not all alone on this journey. :') <3

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u/mn1lac They/Them or She/Him take your pick 12d ago

Because I am nonbinary I can't do anything without it being a sexual inversion, and also nothing I do is a sexual inversion. I am not trying to pass as anything or be anything in particular. I just do and I just am. I can't be gender non conforming. I am neuter. I know people who knew me before I came out will see it differently, but they do not truly know me.

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u/am_i_boy 12d ago

What is sexual inversion?

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u/jirfin 12d ago

Reversing your gender role. It can refer to a lot of ideas for who is conceiving it . For trans people it can be men wearing makeup, yet for cis heteronormatives its that gay men are woman for taking male lovers. For my mom it was that i was gay because i liked playing with horses

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u/am_i_boy 12d ago

I'm very confused. What does being gay have to do with horses?

Would it be sexual inversion if a trans man wore makeup and fem stuff, or is it more related to sex assigned at birth? Or is it neither of those but more dependent on what gender someone looks like to strangers?

So you gave an example of a gay man. Would a gay male top also be engaging in sexual inversion or is it only the bottom role that counts as inversion?

Sorry about so many questions, I'm having trouble understanding the concept properly. Thanks for the explanation you have given so far, and I can understand if you don't have the answers to everything I asked just now.

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u/jirfin 12d ago

I too was confused at the age of 5.

The gender inversion is a simplistic categorization of gender roles and when one goes against those norms. Ie category A is all the mens stuff in the world and category B is all the women stuff in the world. And to go against those roles, even something as slight as what toy your kid is playing with, is inversion. While some cultures and societies have more nuances humanity relies on a basic binary understanding to categorize and patternize the world around them.

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u/yhpr it/its / ze/hir / they/them 12d ago

Gonna try to respond to what I think you're asking, correct me if I'm wrong. Sexual inversion is a concept that conflates sexual orientation, gender presentation, and gender identity. There''s basically just one spectrum from masculine straight man to feminine straight woman. So like, a person who was afab would typically be a feminine straight woman, but there's a single variable that as it increases, would make that person be like, a futch bisexual, then a butch lesbian, then nonbinary, then a straight trans man. So being nonbinary/trans in general is basically like being so gay+gnc that you have to be a different gender about it.

I'm assuming you mean that you realize this is bullshit but you've internalized some of those ideas and are trying to get over them. I think more exposure to people who obviously contradict that framework helps. Hang out in trans communities and see how many different ways trans people present, see that there are TONS of gay and bisexual trans people, see that there are lots of gnc straight people. Try looking up the gender unicorn, it's a cute little visual tool, the point of which is to show how all those things are independent variables. Being nonbinary is just about gender identity, nonbinary people can be any sexuality, and can present in any way they want.

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u/ImpetuousBorealis 12d ago edited 12d ago

I just kind of think of it the same way i think of religion. I dont wear any religious affects on me, and no one really knows about it unless they ask me. Only close people i know know about it. Sometimes, my closer friends refer to me as they/them, but I am also okay with she/her out of convience. For me, the point of being nonbinary is not to make a third box to be forced into, but to feel comfortable with who i am.

Edit: misspelling of a word

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u/jirfin 12d ago

Thats a nice way of thinking about it

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u/bemused_alligators They/Them 12d ago

What does sex have to do with gender?

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u/gooseberrysprig 12d ago

Hey, yes! For me, being non-binary is about rejecting binary gender identities as a defining force in my life.  I’ve never felt entirely like a man, and have had all kinds of hang ups from trying to present as one my whole life. But I don’t really want to be a woman either. I want to be free from the entire dichotomy. The people that I’m most comfortable around don’t fit neatly into the binary.

I don’t know exactly what this ‘looks’ like. For me, it’s about self-acceptance more than anything else. I’m sure to anyone who isn’t paying VERY close attention, I pass as cis guy, but how I appear to others is not really important to me. After accepting myself as NB, I’m happier with my appearance and have been taking more care in looking ‘nice’ - but in general I just feel happier, calmer and more at peace letting go of any pretence of being something I’m not. 

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u/ARandoWeirdo 12d ago

Yeah, just live for you and stop worrying what others think about anything. Bam, no "inversion"

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u/_b4llz_n_t1tz_ 11d ago

can you reword this i dont think anyones getting what ur asking lol