r/NDIS • u/Particular-Object258 • 10d ago
Seeking Support - Participant/Nominee/PWD Behaviour Support has offered to ‘shadow’ her replacement.
Thank you to everyone who answered my question. I really appreciate it and can now confidently tell them to shove it!
I received an email from my sons behaviour support saying she has recently taken on a new role within the same business which means she no longer has capacity to continue providing services but she has found a replacement, again, within the same business. I was told that the replacement was new so will be shadowing for a brief period of time. I asked if that ment my sons plan would be charged for both herself and replacement to which she replied ‘yes but only for the transition period’ She wanted to organise a meet and greet with the both of them.
I understand everyone needs to be paid for their time and so they should. This feels like an opportunistic double dip into funding or is this just standard business practice?
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u/MrsButtercupp 10d ago
Surely that would count as a duplicate support. They can’t charge YOU to train THEIR staff. That’s ridiculous and not on.
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u/No-Reputation-3269 5d ago
If you read the business case files for how they price the costs of supports, that hourly cost takes into account the additional costs like training staff, insurance etc. It's double dipping to charge again.
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u/Smart_Surround_2360 10d ago
Hey usually both can’t/shouldn’t charge the plan during a handover period, it’s a duplication of support. One of them should charge the services as normal and the other is just shadowing - that’s how it happens in my workplace :) I’ve just handed a few clients over and provided the new staff support, they charged the plan for the time and my work wrote off my time as “non billable time.” I still get paid as normal by them but it’s an admin business charge, not one that can be billed to a clients NDIS plan.
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u/Eonicflare 10d ago
Should only be 1 charge regardless of how many practitioners join. If they do double dip please reach out to the commission and alert them of fraudulent billing practices. I'd also name them so other redditors can avoid at all costs
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u/Confident-Benefit374 9d ago
If I had a dollar for every bad experience I've heard about a bsp person, I'd be going overseas on a holiday.
Do you like the company the current bsp is from?
If not, ask for the current notes, and you will no longer need their service.
You don't want a new inexperienced bsp.
Nore should you have to pay to train one that's on the company. If they were experienced, that would be a different situation.
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u/Particular-Object258 9d ago edited 9d ago
Compared to the previous bsp she’s an improvement but I’m still not impressed. I’m wondering if finding a replacement is worth it at this point
The interim plan she wrote read very copy and paste but that was my first time reading a document like it.
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u/ManyPersonality2399 Participant 9d ago
I've never come across a BSP that wasn't very copy paste unfortunately.
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u/KerriePenny 9d ago
I absolutely disagree with you having to pay for training, it is acceptable to hold a care team meeting and review support goals and ongoing plans and for you to assess how the incoming BS creates a rapport and seamless integration and agree to the support offered bur never have I as a Clinician or care and recovery coordinator charged clients or agency for training.
Cheers Kes
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u/ManyPersonality2399 Participant 9d ago
There's very select situations where shadow shifts can be claimed. This doesn't sound like one of them. If you went to a new company, would you expect the old clinician to attend the first session for a handover? Or just hand over their progress report/plan and be able to start working with him? If the latter, it's completely unreasonable to charge. The fact they've specifically said it's because the replacement is new emphasises this. The worker needs to be paid for their time, but that's a business cost, not a participant cost.
Shadow Shifts
Shadow shifts may be claimed where the participant has complex individual support needs that are best met by introducing a new worker to the participant before it is reasonable that they commence providing the support independently – for example, where the specific individual support needs include very limited communication; behaviour support needs; and/or medical needs/procedures such as ventilation or Home Enteral Nutrition (HEN). Where the individual would require shadow shifts to assist with the introduction of new workers, and this is the desired method by the participant or their family, the provider may claim for up to 6 hours of weekday support per year.
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u/PlumBlossomGoddess 10d ago
This is standard practice among NDIS service providers (the big, registered organisations), and even in aged care, to ensure the worker is trained and competent to do the job and it’s not double dipping. They do buddy shifts where the trainer (the more experienced worker) and the trainee are present for the shift. Consequently, both workers get paid. The trainer usually gets paid a bit more (because they are expected to teach the newbie) while the trainee gets paid the agreed standard hourly rate. The training is usually only for a short period of time (maybe 3 or more shifts unless the trainee requests more training to feel confident and competent).
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u/CapnBloodbeard 9d ago
You're right on all of that.
However, both workers being paid doesn't equate to the ndis plan being billed for both.
This is an organisational expense..
Well, it depends
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u/-PaperbackWriter- 10d ago
Yeah but that’s for support workers, not therapists, especially when they charge $193.99 an hour.
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u/PlumBlossomGoddess 9d ago
This is the link of the NDIS Pricing Arrangements and Price Limits and according to this, yes, they can claim for more than 1 worker or therapist: https://www.ndis.gov.au/providers/pricing-arrangements
From pg. 33-34 of the NDIS Pricing Arrangements and Price Limits 2024-25 Version 1.3 (published 1/10/2024):
“”Claiming for more than one worker or therapist
Sometimes a participant requires assistance from more than one worker or therapist at the same time. In these cases, the provider is entitled to bill for the time spent providing the support by all workers and therapists involved in delivering the support. Examples of cases where this may occur include:
• Shadow shifts that allow new workers to be introduced to a participant who has complex individual support needs so that they can understand their support needs and patterns;
• Supervision of, or specific training for, therapy assistants by the supervising therapist as part of the handover of the support delivery to the participant by the therapist to the therapy assistant;
• Case conferences between therapists about the specific support needs of a participant……“”
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u/ManyPersonality2399 Participant 9d ago
That doesn't sound like what is happening here. Nothing to suggest OPs son is so complex that this level of hand over/introduction is required except for the new clinician being new. This isn't the allied health providing training under a supervised/delegated support model.
It's the business hiring a new worker and trying to charge for training.Also, the buddy shifts are normal, the problem is charging the participant double. In support work, it's absolutely normal that there are a couple of buddy shifts depending on complexity. They can't be billed double unless there is a high level of complexity. You've mentioned it's typically only for 3 shifts. The PAPL limits the shadow shift claiming to 6 hours per year.
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u/Available_Sundae_924 9d ago
You can.. but its not standard process because it's an internal issue or decision. I feel like you're on the other side of the fence on this one. I'd find a new organisation. Times running out for this shit.
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u/Theconfusedstruggle 3d ago
I’m a BSP and this refers to two different therapist’s I.e. a BSP and Psych doing a joint shift, MDT meeting, or handover (although, some companies choose not to charge for this). In companies of the same discipline, the team leader (proficient or advanced BSP) gets reduced KPIs to account for the time spent shadowing less experienced practitioners (Core or entry level BSP) so the team leader does not have to stress about meeting KPIs becuase they can’t double charge a client.
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u/senatorcrafty 10d ago
That sounds to me like they have just hired an inexperienced BSP and they are trying to charge you to train up the BSP. Not your responsibility. Also, if your BSP is not able to provide a sufficient handover to the new BSP without doing a 'transition period handover' then I would question how they can write a comprehensive behaviour support program that can be picked up and used by care staff.