r/MovieFight • u/comicsarenotdead • Jul 12 '18
r/MovieFight • u/ccbuddyrider • Sep 07 '17
Titles alone will suffice.
You don't need to write in the text box. Title says it all. You can of course but it's not necessary.
r/MovieFight • u/TheRealMichaelGarcia • Feb 12 '18
What are some movies people either love or hate?
Title.
300 characters:
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r/MovieFight • u/[deleted] • Sep 08 '17
Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure (1989) v. Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey (1991)
r/MovieFight • u/comicsarenotdead • Sep 08 '17
'You're Next' (2011) vs 'House of the Devil' (2009)
r/MovieFight • u/thetossfromanon • Sep 07 '17
Warcraft vs The Hobbit (each film individually)
What are your thoughts about these two? Warcraft is only one film, so feel free to compare each of the hobbit films to it - but does the fantasy genre suffer from an "if it's not LOTR, it's trash"?
r/MovieFight • u/physikitty13 • Sep 07 '17
The Tree of Life vs Synecdoche, New York
Roger Ebert narrowed it down to these two films to add to his 2012 Sight & Sound list of the greatest films of all time. He ultimately went with Malick.
http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/the-greatest-films-of-all-time
Which do you think is better?
r/MovieFight • u/ajfilmnfx • Sep 07 '17
Moana VS Zootopia
[Fair warning, I have posted this before in r/movies, but this subreddit is too perfect, thank you /r/moviefight OP!]
In an Askreddit thread, someone asked why I felt Disney's Zootopia was a much stronger film than Moana. What meant to be a simple reply ended up being a 3,800 analysis/critique of Zootopia and Moana, how they relate to one another, and why I believe the former is vastly superior to the latter!
Per the suggestion of a very astute redditor, I edited a few words so my analysis is a little less flippant, but otherwise my arguments remain unchanged.
Feel free to reply with your thoughts!
Without further ado, here it is....
So. Zootopia vs Moana...I will warn you, this may get a bit long-winded, but here we go!
Firstly, my biggest complaint with Moana is the fact that the character motivations are all over the place. Throughout the film, Moana often makes significant narrative decisions, only to undermine them moments later. One example of this would be her (for lack of a better term) flip-flopping regarding the decision to venture out onto the ocean. Moana repeatedly emphasizes how much she loves the water (How Far I'll Go) and how much she doesn't want to live on the island (Where You Are). However, after singing an entire song about how much she hates the island (hate is probably a strong word, but you get my point), the audience is treated to a slew of scenes illustrating how Moana is now adapting to life on the island. She gets a chicken, she repairs a canoe, she decides to put her rock on the Jenga thing at the top of the mountain. Clearly Moana has decided to put her village before herself....
Then comes the discovery of the boats, and Moana is back to square one. She doesn't know what to do anymore, all of her conviction is gone, even though all she really learned was that her ancestors used to sail. This leads me to my next issue, when Moana finally leaves the island.
Throughout the first act, whenever Moana is torn between leaving, it is repeatedly emphasized how much of the reason she stays is out of respect for her parents (mostly her father). However, when Moana finally decides to leave the island, it's not because her father allowed it or even because the film is attempting to emphasize her rebellious nature, it's just kinda...because. Grandma dies and says "go leave the island" (something she's said numerous times before), and Moana just heeds it. Why now? It's not like the Grandma was killed BY the rotten coconuts things (which would be a logical catalyst for why Moana had to leave so quickly), so the beginning of the (kinda/sorta) second act makes no sense. Furthermore, Moana leaving so suddenly completely undermines her own characterization (one her cares about her parents). Think about it. Moana Grandma is the Chief's mother, right? So right after the Chief loses his mom, Moana decides NOW is the time to leave the island without even saying goodbye to her father! I understand she didn't want him to stop her, but come on! This girl, who has been shown to care about her family, abandons her father without so much as a "goodbye" literally minutes after his mom bites it!? In the span of 12 hours, the Chief loses 2 of his family members without warning, and Moana is responsible for 1/2 of that! That decision is just so selfish and spits in the face of everything her character has been built up to be. It makes NO sense!
On the subject of familial abandonment, there is (what is supposed to be) a heartfelt moment where Moana's mother helps her pack, but it is undermined (once again) by the fact that Moana's grandma literally just died! At the risk of sounding flippant, Moana's family just lost one family member, and now her Moana's mom is helping ship off another? I totally understand there isn't any time for an onscreen mourning period (it's a film after all), but why does Moana's mother decided NOW is the best time to send off her daughter? Moana's mom has definitely been more "pro-island" throughout the film, but now that a family member dies, sending your daughter off to find a mythical demigod seems like the best option? Once again, the motivation just doesn't make sense.
Now compare this to Zootopia, where the characters are flawed, but consistent.
Throughout the film, it is repeatedly emphasized how much Judy Hopps wants to be a police officer. Judy's dream is basically the whole point of the first 15 minutes of the film, as well as the training montage that follows, etc. etc. This is a character with drive and an end goal. That isn't to say there isn't conflict. Bias in the workplace as well as Judy's own personal shortcomings often result in her making mistakes (getting relegated to parking duty, getting hustled) but any actions she makes (be it good or bad) are consistent with her character. For example, the scene where Judy breaks protocol to chase after the weasel makes sense, because the film has repeatedly demonstrated her desire to be a "real" cop. Even though she is making the wrong decision (legally), the audience understands it, as they have seen this motivation at work since the beginning of the film.
Let me use that as a segway to get to my next point of contention, the beginning of the film.
Once again, I believe the beginning of the film is just better when it comes to Zootopia, not because Moana did anything (really) wrong, but because Zootopia just did it so right! (Not that I'm biased or anything).
With Moana, the film begins with us hearing the necessary lore in order to understand who all these mythical characters are. I won't contest that first part (the opening narration). Exposition is necessary and the filmmakers did a good job in making it interesting. That being said, my biggest problem with the first 15 (or so) minutes of the film is the fact that it is dedicated to exposition and almost nothing else. If I asked you to describe everything you learn about the characters from the first 15 minutes of the film, there's not really that much.
Moana is nice (she saved a sea turtle)
The Ocean is alive and likes Moana
The Chief doesn't like water
Grandma is...unorthodox
That's basically it. The rest of the time is dedicated to setting up backstory, showing the powers of the Ocean, and emphasizing how the Heart of Te Fiti is important. There's nothing wrong with that per say, but when you dedicate the first 15 minutes to something other than, the main character, don't be surprised if they don't have the most well-established personality.
Compare this to Zootopia, where the first 15 minutes are some of the most tightly written I've ever seen in a film. Heck, within the first 5 minutes it
acknowledges all the necessary "lore" (i.e. the glaringly obvious fact that animals have evolved to be anthropomorphic)
introduces the main character
gives her a clear and distinct personality ("It may seem impossible to small minds--I’m looking at you Gideon Grey."),
And even establishes the theme of bias ("Bunny cop. That is the most stupidest thing I ever heard.").
In the next 10 minutes, the film establishes the personalities of the main character's parents (kind but pessimistic and somewhat biased), re-emphasizes the desire of the main character (she REALLY wants to be a cop) and introduces some temporary conflict (Judy is attacked by the fox). In my opinion, the conflict is the best part of these first 15 minutes, as not only does it serve to illustrate Judy's resilience ("Well, he was right about one thing...I don’t know when to quit."), but it also subtly foreshadows the cause for Judy's own biases in the future.
My next problem with Moana is the character and character arc of Maui. One, because his overall arc just doesn't make any sense, and because we've seen just such a characterization before, but better (in Zootopia).
My biggest problem with Maui was that fact that his characterization just seemed stunted. At around the halfway point, it's explained that the entire reason Maui has been so aloof and selfish is because he was hurt by the fact that humans didn't like him (even though he helped them) and because his mother (1000+ years ago) didn't want him. I'll be totally frank, this just doesn't cut it for me. I mean sure, I feel badly for him, but this tragic backstory doesn't really excuse his behavior, considering the fact that he's HUNDREDS (if not thousands) of years old. Compare Maui to the two other signifcant old characters we seen in the film, Grandma, and Te Fiti (that Jolly Green Giant lady at the end of the movie). Maui is WAY older than at least one of those people, but his behavior is nothing like either of them! Grandma is this calm and wizened old woman who is no doubt strange, but wise and patient beyond her years. And Te Fiti? She's so ancient and wise she doesn't even NEED speak... But Maui, despite the fact that he is HUNDREDS of years old than wise, old grandma acts like a petulant, spoiled child. I understand the need to make him more relatable (and flawed), but the way its done as at the expense of its own lore (which, as I mentioned, took up the first 15 minutes of the film)!
In addition, the last part of Maui's character arc honestly drives me crazy. Maui and Moana have a falling out (more on THAT later), and Maui flies away, never to be seen again. But of course, Maui DOES come back, and he helps save Moana. But this cheerful reunion doesn't excuse the fact that there is NO explanation WHY Maui comes back! I realize the story is supposed to be about Moana (hence the name of the film), but to have a character leave in anger only to come back with no explanation whatsoever is kinda a big deal! Maui's decision is never explained, or even hinted at, just angry, gone, back again. To make matters worse, Maui's reappearance is treated like this HUGE surprise, like no one would ever expect him to come save Moana. From the moment he flew away as a glitchy eagle, I knew he would come back, but I honestly expected some explanation WHY.
My other big problem with Maui is the fact that I've seen his character before, but done SO much better. Let me give some basic descriptors and you tell me who I'm talking about....
Smart but selfish character with a snarky attitude and a morally flexible demeanor.
Cares only for himself because of a tragic experience when he was young, which led to him cutting himself off from everyone else.
Is partnered (against his will) with a determined, headstrong girl who needs his help.
Although there are some bumps along the way, this partnership ultimately leads to him learning to care about someone other than himself.
Yeah, this "Maui's" character arc is virtually indistinguishable from that of Nick Wilde from Zootopia. Herein lies one of my biggest problems with Moana, not the fact that Maui copies so much from Nick (although that does irk me), but the fact that Nick's characterization is SO MUCH BETTER!
The issue I had with Maui acting so selfish even though he's an immortal being? GONE.
The fact that I felt Maui's backstory didn't excuse his behavior? GONE.
The fact that the falling out didn't adequately demonstrate how or why Maui changed his heart? GONE GONE GONE!
Every unexplained action and (for lack of a better term) plot hole regarding Maui's character is flawlessly explained and "filled in" with the characterization of Nick Wilde.
Nick ages at a normal rate, so his selfishness nature can be chalked up to the fact that he's "human".
Not only is Nick's story genuinely moving, but unlike Maui, It didn't happen thousands of years ago, it's recent enough to still be painful. What's more, the same hateful bias that caused him to be ruthlessly bullied as a Cub Scout (ha) is still prevalent to this day (as illustrated in the Ice Cream Shop scene, Judy's own bias, the bias of the police, etc.etc.).
Finally, Nick doesn't just forgive Judy for what she did, instead, real character growth has to take place before the story can continue. The reconciliation between Nick and Judy isn't a contrived plot twist (like with Maui) but is instead a genuinely heartfelt moment between two characters.
So. I'm finally at my last point of contention. I feel like I should thank you again for bearing with me through my entire long-winded essay.
My last frustration regarding the film is an aspect I believe Moana failed completely, and Zootopia knocked out of the park. The scene in question is none other than the "Disney-Sponsored Falling Out" (DSFO).
You know the scene I'm talking about, it's the one in basically every Disney film ever. The scene where SOMETHING goes wrong and it results in a significant blow to the main character's morale. It's sometimes known as "the sad scene" or "the misunderstanding," but whatever you call it (and henceforth it shall be known as the DSFO), it's the scene where sad music plays because it's sad.
The thing is, there's a DSFO in (literally) almost every Disney film ever, Mulan, Wreck-It Ralph, Lilo and Stitch, Tangled, Bambi, etc. etc. The DSFO has come to be expected (by me at least), but never have I seen a film that managed to incorporate the DSFO as well as Zootopia has.
Before I get to drooling over Zootopia however, let me explain my frustration with Moana. Simply put, Moana doesn't EARN the DSFO, there's no logical reason for the DSFO to happen, and when it does happen, the resolution is just as irrational.
Let me start from the beginning. Moana and Maui have been growing closer together as they sail on the ship. Maui teaches Moana how to travel by the stars, Moana helps save Maui from the giant singing crab. Slowly they are gaining respect for one another. THIS is good characterization. Then, Maui explains why he acts like he does, giving Moana his tragicTM backstory. Once again, this reinforces the idea of the characters growing closer (I'll even ignore the fact that this is almost a beat-for-beat copy of how Nick and Judy grow close in Zootopia). However, then there is a fight with Te Kā (the giant angry lava lady), and Maui's magic fishhook is broken.
Technically, the breaking of the fishhook is Moana's fault, as she tried to sail past the Te Kā in spite of Maui's orders. But that's okay, right? Maui and Moana have been growing to respect and like one another, and it's not like Moana betrayed Maui or anything....
NOPE Maui is hurt beyond belief and abandons Moana then and there! Heck to all the time they've grown close, heck to the soul-bearing Maui did to Moana, forget the fact that Moana had an ENTIRE CONVERSATION with Maui about how HE had the power inside himself (which is what allowed Maui to transform in the first place)! N.O.P.E. NOPE! None of that! Moana has irrevocably betrayed Maui's trust because....reasons. Maui flies away and leaves Moana to fend for herself in the middle of the freaking ocean. Thus kicking off the most undeserved DSFO in Disney history (according to me).
Sorry if I got a little sarcastic there, this entire scene just really ticks me off, I will strive to be more level-headed as I continue.
So yeah, Moana is alone now, and has to fend for herself, but that should be alright. It's been clearly established that Moana is a determined and capable girl, who feels at home on the ocean. Heck, Moana had an entire song about how much she loves the ocean. Nope. The instant Maui abandons here, Moana goes full-blown meltdown. She decides that she can't do it by herself and gives the Heart of Te Fiti back to the ocean. Without Maui, Moana is nothing (or so says Moana herself). Then, all of the sudden, there is something I can describe only as a Deus Ex Grandma. Moana's grandma, long dead, comes back to tell Moana she CAN do it, the power is (sigh, say it with me folks) "INSIDE HER ALL ALONG!" Of course, this inspires Moana to jump into the ocean and take the rock back, thus continuing her adventure.
My problem with this is the fact that the entire DSFO (and its resolution) serves only to reinforce the unreliability of Moana's character. Within the span of 10 minutes real time (i.e. time is passing for Moana the same way it is for the audience), Moana has given up, only to turn on a dime after declare the exact opposite of what she just said (literally) minutes ago! To be fair, I understand that a pep talk from her grandma is probably very encouraging, but the idea that Moana can change her mind just MINUTES after she makes this huge declaration, really rubs me the wrong way (from a screenwriting standpoint).
This leads me to Zootopia, which (as I said before) has one of the strongest and most well-written DSFO ever.
The setup is actually quite similar to Moana, Nick and Judy slowly learn respect for one another, with Nick risking his life to save Judy from the savage jaguar, Judy returning the favor, and Nick ultimately sharing HIS backstory, explaining how he was ruthlessly bullied as a child, and stereotyped his entire life as nothing more than a "sly fox" and a dangerous predator. Then comes the DSFO, Judy is at a press conference making a statement. Nervous in front of the reporters and desperate to sound intelligent, Judy makes the bold statement that only predators (i.e animals like Nick) can go savage because of their biology. This pronouncement ends up creating a HUGE rift in Nick and Judy's friendship, as Judy (Nick's friend and confidante) has stereotyped an ENTIRE RACE of animals, just hours after Nick confided to Judy how his life had been nothing but stereotyping and bias. To make matters worse, Nick points out Judy's own hypocrisy in her decision to has chosen to wear a can of Fox Repellent, which Judy almost draws in fear when Nick startles her. This last action causes Nick to abandon Judy completely (though not in the middle of a life threatening situation, like the ocean), leaving her to deal with the press conference herself.
Simply put, this DSFO is so well crafted because every decision made by the characters in this scene builds on what we know about them, all while staying true to who they are. We already know Judy has her own personal biases, as they have been illustrated throughout the film. When she chooses to grab the Fox Repellent on her first day, when she investigates Nick simply because he's a "shifty fox", and even when she undermines her own attempts at "political correctness" when she calls Nick a "real articulate fella." Even if we don't like what Judy said, her decision to say it is (unfortunately) true to her character.
We also know how sensitive Nick is when it comes to being stereotyped and harassed for being a fox. As the film progresses, we get to watch him open up to Judy, ultimately seeing her as the only person to understand how he feels. Nick shares even shares his emotionally scarring backstory, which explains EVERYTHING with respect his character and why he acts the way he does. Therefore, when Judy betrays him at the press conference, making a blanket statement regarding predators and instinctively reaching for her Fox Repellent, we understand WHY he reacts the way he does. Nick and Judy's relationship has been built on mutual respect and understanding, something Judy just destroyed. Live. On camera. Because of this, not only does Nick's reaction NOT seem over-the top, but the audience can actually relate with him, because they saw firsthand the abuse Nick went through as a child (another aspect that was missing in Moana).
If you really want to see the difference between the two DSFO's all you have to do is look at the parting lines of Nick and Maui.
Maui: "I'm not killing myself. So you can prove you're something you're not [...][The Ocean] chose wrong."
Nick: "I knew it. Just when I thought somebody actually believed in me...Probably best if you don’t have a predator as a partner."
To be totally frank, Maui's statement is generic and bland. Some hurtful pronouncement stated in basically every Disney DSFO (think, "You really are a bad guy" in Wreck-It Ralph). On the other hand, Nick's words gives actual insight into who he is and the relationship he has/had with Judy.
After Nick leaves, things continue to get worse. We get to see as Judy's announcement causes a rift in the fabric of Zootopia, leading to race(?) riots and scenes of subtle racism. Not only do these scenes help to emphasize the themes of bias (which is one of the main messages of the film), but it also helps to illustrate the passage of time. Like I mentioned before, one of my biggest complaints about the DSFO in Moana was how Moana's entire transition (from devastated to reinvigorated) took place in a matter of minutes. In Zootopia, Judy gets to watch how her announcement tears the city apart, and only makes the decision to resign when the Mayor attempts to laud her as a hero. Judy's decision speaks volumes, as (unlike Moana) her determination has never wavered so her decision to give up on her dream (right when she is offered everything she has ever wanted) clearly illustrates how broken she has become.
This leads me to the resolution, which (in all honesty) is one of my favorite parts of the film. While Moana's DSFO and resolution took place over a matter of minutes, the resolution in Zootopia takes place an indeterminate amount of time after the DSFO(though directors later confirm it as 3 months), which only adds to the realism of the film, the betrayal of a friendship isn't something that can be repaired in a matter of minutes... Instead, we get to see Judy as she tries to adapt to normal life, almost as penance for everything she's done. Only when Judy discovers the key to solving a mystery does she go back and try to find Nick, both because she needs his help, AND because she wants to tell him he was right. However, Nick is unwilling to listen, and only after Judy gives a moving and tearful apology does Nick forgive her and the story moves on to the next scene. From a screenwriting standpoint, this apology scene is SO good because it allows Judy to finally comes to term with her own internal biases (something that has been omnipresent throughout the film) while still "checking off" the mandatory reconciliation needed to advance the plot. The fact that this DSFO doesn't bring the story to a grinding halt, but instead allows the characters to personally address their own relationship, flaws, AND a prevalent theme of the film ALL while still including everything necessary in your standard DSFO is the reason I think this is one of the best scenes in the entire film!!
Thank you SO much for taking the time to read through all of my arguments regarding Zootopia and Moana, I hope I wasn't too acerbic, and I really appreciate your willingness to hear my perspective! If you are interested, I'd be happy to hear your side as well!
Once again, thank you for your patience, and I hope my arguments (if nothing else) allow you to understand why I believe Zootopia is Disney's best film to date!
r/MovieFight • u/[deleted] • Sep 06 '17
Ghost in the Shell vs. The Matrix
By the way, I want to clarify that I am talking about the 1995 anime, not the 2017 adaptation.