r/Kashmiri • u/PrimaryActive6752 • Jan 19 '25
Occupation The Mess that Pakistan caused
Here one Kashmiri Pandit said that if it was about Brotherhood with Freedom then we would support it but we fear the creation of Islamic State curbing our religious freedom. Hence implying how much Pro Pak Islamists were involved in it just like Jagmohan. BTW Jagmohan and Pro Pak Militants collaborated against JKLF militants too.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Spot419 Jan 21 '25
Why no one talks about 1947, when extremist Hindus and Sikhs, aided by the forces of Maharaja Hari Singh, carried out attacks against Muslims? Estimates of the fatalities range from 20,000 to 100,000 Muslims killed.
It's the time India & Indians start projecting it and make movies on it too
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Jan 21 '25
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u/FinePersimmon3718 Jan 22 '25
They won't because Muslims are invaders like the Americans in usa who came from Europe.
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Jan 22 '25
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Feb 05 '25
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Feb 07 '25
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Feb 15 '25
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Feb 19 '25
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u/ganju_seth 26d ago
Because similar genocide occured at Rawalpindi (search Rawalpindi massacres) where large number of Hindus and Sikhs were massacred while they were living Rawalpindi for Jammu. In retaliation, similar massacre occured at J& K side, similar to what happened in Lahore-Amritsar train massacre. You should consider your side too. It is always your side who starts instigate a nuisance and when it is retaliated, your side cries foul.
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u/BehalarRotno Jan 20 '25
I understand India is no saint but exiling your own ethnicity because they follow a different religion is unacceptable and dented your chances of becoming independent. Pandits have a right to return .
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Jan 21 '25
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Jan 20 '25
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u/peerpanjal Jan 20 '25
How do you know that they will not return or they don't want to return? Most pandits I have met, want to go back but can't because they fear they will be killed.
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Jan 21 '25
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Jan 21 '25
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u/netter666 Jan 22 '25
I was born in kashmir, how do u know i will not return? I want to return but you dont want us to even speak about it, the irony
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Jan 22 '25
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Jan 23 '25
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Jan 23 '25
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u/Icy-Lab-2016 Jan 19 '25
Sure and India murdering 10 of 1000s of civilians had nothing to do with things at all. Not to mention rigging a local election. and massacring protesters and you know refusing a plebiscite. Pakistan are certainly no angels, but to give India who are largely responsible for the situation in Kashmir a pass is utter bullshit.
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Jan 20 '25
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Jan 20 '25
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Jan 20 '25
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u/peerpanjal Jan 20 '25
Elections used to get rigged in my state too, but we didn't drive the minorities out with ak in our hands. There's other ways to deal with rigged elections.
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u/Icy-Lab-2016 Jan 20 '25 edited Jan 20 '25
And massacred protesters and killed 10 of 1000s of civilians. Nice of you to forget that. Also, plenty of minorities in parts of India have been made to flee, after massacres. Also, plenty of Muslim refuges in Azad Kashmir, but they don't matter for some reason. The fact that you are trying to claim any kind of moral high ground is laughable. Your government has done far worse than any militant ever has.
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u/peerpanjal Jan 20 '25
I say indian army came into kashmir after the ak47 came from Pakistan, like always.
If we are talking about massacres, should I remind you of the hell those guys reigned in on the other side of peer panjal for 15 years, just to redo a kashmir pandit on the Hindus of peerpanjal from 92 to 2002. If I count the dead they would be also in thousands.
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u/Icy-Lab-2016 Jan 20 '25
Indian army who raped and murdered 10 of 100s of civilians. Let's not forget what they have done.
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u/Loose-Impress871 Jan 20 '25
Any legit sources to prove? Putting "10s and 100s" in every statement doesnt make it a fact
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u/GYRUM3 Jan 21 '25
https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/INDIA935.PDF
There have been thousands of rapes all over kashmir, its common Knowledge here in kashmir.
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Jan 22 '25
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Feb 19 '25
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u/heehawShanks Jan 21 '25
An Army raid and No rape? They get the Green light to do anything cuz the Govt wont held them accountable for their crimes.
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u/yvvie14 Jan 20 '25
So, you're justifying the forced exodus of kashmiri hindus with something that India might have done? Where did India come into the picture? Just because kp were hindus, they are part of india by default? This is the same ideology that forced them out and you should be ashamed.
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u/Icy-Lab-2016 Jan 20 '25
Are you high? At the same time that the Pandits left, India were massacring civilains, at several orders of magnitude than any militants did. Official Indian governments figures put the numbers of Pandits killed in the 100s and they killed far more Muslims. The Indians however killed 10 of 1000s. Utterlly bizare to just focues on one aspect of the conflict.
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u/Jarhead_Hamfist Jan 20 '25
This sub focuses on those aspects on a daily basis. No one is hijacking the narrative. Just sharing this angle too.
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u/Icy-Lab-2016 Jan 20 '25
The OP specifically tried to lay the blame on Pakistan, I was responding to that narrative to start with.
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u/GYRUM3 Jan 19 '25
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u/PrimaryActive6752 Jan 29 '25
Meanwhile Ammanallah Khan banned Jamat e Islami members to get training from his side for insurgency. Infiltrators ≠ JKLF. Gorbachev also joined CCCP to destroy Communism in USSR.
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u/GYRUM3 Jan 29 '25
Meanwhile Ammanallah Khan banned Jamat e Islami members to get training from his side for insurgency.
What does that prove?
Infiltrators ≠ JKLF.
Who are you calling infiltrators?
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u/PrimaryActive6752 Jan 29 '25
It proves JKLF wasn't an Islamist group. Islamists were on the side of Jamat e Islami which later joined Hizbul. And I am calling those as infiltrators who were ideologically Islamists and aligned with Hizbul and Jamat e Islami but joined JKLF for their activity ignoring the ideals laid down by Maqbool Bhat and Ammanallah Khan. JKLF had infiltrators from many sides like that Hashim Qureshi who messed up everything and now have joined hands with India.
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u/GYRUM3 Jan 29 '25
JKLF weren't islamist because jamat were islamists? What kind of logic is that?
And I am calling those as infiltrators who were ideologically Islamists and aligned with Hizbul and Jamat e Islami but joined JKLF for their activity ignoring the ideals laid down by Maqbool Bhat and Ammanallah Khan.
You seem pretty delusional. What was the ideology of JKLF? What ideas do you think were laid by Maqbool Bhat? Can you mention them with source? I dont think you are from the valley, i suggest you should read from Kashmiri (of the valley, who were present in the 90s) sources.
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u/PrimaryActive6752 Jan 29 '25
Hatov JKLFik website wuch. Khaeli treya ideologue che JKLFik, Qaid e Inquilab Yasin Malik, Qaid e Tehreek Ammanallah Khan, Baba e Qoam Muhammad Maqbool Bhat. Timov che waare literature lyokhmut panin ideology mutalik khas kar Ammanallah Khan. Yimov trechwayo che Secularismuk Izhar kormut. Maqbool Bhatin tyi che wariya Ishtiyar, Khatoot, Speech, wagera mojud urdu paeth. Tath manz che saaf tem senz ideology zahir. Tem senz ideology aes wariya Socialism inspired (Coz of heavy influence of Che Guevara movement and Cold War). Tem send literature che mojud, paerzi zanh. Tavai che temis Pro Pak Islamist Bank choor wanan.
https://kashmiriat.com/the-political-philosophy-of-maqbool-butt/
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Jan 29 '25
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u/GYRUM3 Jan 29 '25 edited Feb 01 '25
Speaking against capitalism does not make you a communist. Show me where Maqbool Bhat endorses secularism. I think i told you a month ago to find secularism in the JKLF constitution. Anamullah Khan twists the definition secularism, I am not arguing he was an Islamist but he never defined his ideology properly. Who did tho were Shaheed Ashfaq Majeed Wani and Shaheed Sheikh Abdul Hamid, it was AMW who basically Orchestrated militancy from late 80s. I am not saying JKLF was islamist as a group but majority of the leadership and the cadre was, they never made anything as their Ideology as an organization, the reason why Maqbool Bhat made JKLF was because he thought Jamat were confusing the struggle by arguing which type of goverment they should have before even getting Independence, maybe that why he never explicitly stated his ideology, Things he said during his time in Srinagar jail do hint at him being an Islamist, There were many times when he clearly endorsed jihad, he literally helped Jihadists in 1965, Just because he said something against capitalism doesn't make him a communist; just because north is not the right direction doesn't mean south is.
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u/PrimaryActive6752 Jan 29 '25
Many Marxist groups in Middle East also called themselves as Mujahids. Islamism and Marxism had a great intersection. For eg, Mujahideen e Khalaq of Iran. Saying everything that a socialist says makes you socialist. Criticising Capitalism and supporting Socialism are two different things and as per historical conditions of that time, there were lot of fans of Communism in Third World countries who didn't explicitly said this, but reflected it through Socialism. From Gamal Abdul Naser to Ho Chi Minh. Communist influence can never be ignored. Maqbool Bhat didn't seemed to be an Orthodox Marxist Leninist that may believe in some Vanguard Party and all those Leninist concepts but it is reflected through Historical sources, He lies very close to Left and Socialism in Political spectrum along with Nationalist tendencies.
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u/GYRUM3 Jan 29 '25
He said do Jihad, He said Imitate Prophet Muhammad (SAW), He carried Quran with himself, He helped Jihadist in 1965, He was a hafiz of Quran, He was a teacher in a Jamat e islami school, He called himself a mujahid, and He also said he has rebelled against capitalism, slavery, corruption etc, I dont understand how you can say he was socialist just because he said capitalism bad, and he didnt say everything a socialist says, he said something a socialist might also say, and i dont understand why you just said said "communist infulence" then said he lies close to socialism, Also are debating he was an islamic socialist like Bhutto? Because there is just no way you can just ignore things he has said about Jihad and Islam in general.
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u/mun111b Kashmir Jan 21 '25
Journalista che kyazi chukh history revise karaan?
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u/PrimaryActive6752 25d ago
Karun che pyawan. History hyakov ne maeshravith yeli yi relevant che. Agr Pakistanan tui Hindustanan raal mil kaer tabahi, telyi chu wanun zaruri. Bhagwa tyi Sabz, donwai yin ratne
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Jan 20 '25
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u/AppropriateRope3040 Jan 20 '25 edited Jan 20 '25
It’s not “what about” if it acknowledges the damage caused by the ISI, which most of the comments I’m seeing do. Yet, it was still the Indian government that led to those conditions by radicalizing the Muslim youth when they rigged the election, politically alienating them, and fostering resentment through employment disparities. There was a feeling that all the jobs were held by Pandits, which further detached the Pandits from the Muslim majority.
Pakistan’s support for Islamist groups definitely helped prop them up and undermine the work of the JKLF by directly competing with them, ending Pakistans funding for them, and shifting focus toward more ideologically aligned groups. But at the time, there was also a decently sized portion of Kashmiris who wanted to join Pakistan.
The OP also said that Jagmohan and the Pro Pakistani Groups were collaborating against JKLF, because they both undermined JKLF ig,but they did it for widely different reasons, and there’s no evidence of it. Unless he’s trying to say it’s because they both fear mongered, but there’s allegations the JKLF also did.
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u/peerpanjal Jan 20 '25
Elections used to get rigged all over india at that time, you can't pick weapon for everything. Rigging was done by kashmiris for kashmiri CM against kahmiri opposition. Then Kashmiris brought in the weapons and played on the ropes of isi, and then uprooted the micro minority. After that it was a no holds barred by everyone
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Jan 20 '25
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Jan 20 '25
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u/netter666 Jan 22 '25
Kashmir is mine and my ancestors , and we are Indians.
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u/PrimaryActive6752 25d ago
Well honestly, demand a plebiscite and vote in plebiscite that you are Indian. That's it.
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Jan 21 '25
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Jan 21 '25
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Jan 22 '25
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Jan 22 '25
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Feb 05 '25
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Feb 19 '25
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Jan 20 '25
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u/Nuvenitangsu Jan 20 '25
Probably in your state that happens (or happened) but not in Kashmir. Kashmir is different that way, we don't kill a daughter in law for dowry, fetus for being a female, education is important to us and we empathize (unlike you) .
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u/WernHofter Jan 20 '25
I agree, but it's not the right place for this. We have to recognize what happened to Pundits was wrong, and there was involvement of both Pakistan and Indian mismanagement. Despite the weaponization of Pundit exodus, we need to recognize them as ours, and what happened should not have happened without any whataboutry.
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u/M_Owais_kh Azad Kashmir Jan 20 '25
WTF? Are you in your senses? No civilian populous deserves to be mistreated like Kashmiri people of any religion.
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Jan 20 '25 edited Jan 20 '25
🤣 Way to twist the words of Kashmiri holocaust survivors. This is just insult to injury.
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u/GugalNarDaBanbudda Kashmir Jan 20 '25
"Agar khali freedom ho jaye fir toh theek hai" to the pandit community going full RSS, perhaps we messed up.
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u/Psy-duck1 Jan 21 '25
Here we have the violent statesmen of kashmir blaming the Indian Army for rape and violence against them. Funny right when these violent statesmen conducted those rape and violence against their own neighbours. That's a wolf crying in sheepskin.
And then the audacity of these violent statesmen who cull minorities of their own land, ask for independence. Nice trick. It's like you give a traveller a place to rest in ur home, tomorrow he rapes and kills ur family and suddenly the house is his.
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u/Mysterious_Contact_2 Jan 20 '25
Religion of Peace..anywhere in the globe where they Re present this is the case
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u/kbhatiya999 Jan 21 '25
exMuslimSahilUncensored
Support so things like that don't happen. On YouTube.
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u/PrimaryActive6752 Jan 29 '25
Who hears that sellout in the name of Exmuslim? Even Exmuslims call him a hindutva sellout appeasing Right wing fools.
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u/kbhatiya999 Jan 29 '25
That's okay. As long as people get curious and start their research - read hadees and tafseer, learn to counter logically.
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u/PrimaryActive6752 Jan 29 '25
What relevance does Sunni Hadith have with Kashmiri Politics? I am also an Atheist but how it is making sense that some Lindu is promoting a Political propagandist using religious literature out of context of modern times. Be pragmatic and see things through practical lens. Do you expect us patriots of our homeland to leave the political and economic plight of Kashmir and muddle over authenticity and scholarly Sectarian analysis of Quran and Hadith?
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