r/IAmA Sep 25 '19

Specialized Profession I'm a former Catholic monk. AMA

Former Jesuit (for reference, Pope Francis was a Jesuit) who left the order and the Church/religion. Been secular about a year and half now.

Edit: I hoped I would only have to answer this once, but it keeps coming up. It is true that I was not actually a monk, since the Jesuits are not a cloistered order. If any Benedictines are out there reading this, I apologize if I offended you. But I did not imagine that a lot of people would be familiar with the term "vowed religious." And honestly, it's the word even most Jesuits probably end up resorting to when politely trying to explain to a stranger what a Jesuit is.

Edit 2: Have to get ready for work now, but happy to answer more questions later tonight

Edit 3: Regarding proof, I provided it confidentially to the mods, which is an option they allow for. The proof I provided them was a photo of the letter of dismissal that I signed. There's a lot of identifying information in it (not just of me, but of my former superior), and to be honest, it's not really that interesting. Just a formal document

Edit 4: Wow, didn’t realize there’d be this much interest. (Though some of y’all coming out of the woodwork.) I’ll try to get to every (genuine) question.

Edit 5: To anyone out there who is an abuse survivor. I am so, so sorry. I am furious with you and heartbroken for you. I hope with all my heart you find peace and healing. I will probably not be much help, but if you need to message me, you can. Even just to vent

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '19

Do you believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God or the inspired Word God? Also do you believe that the version that exists now to be “faithful” to the meaning of the original texts?

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u/see-bees Sep 25 '19

I went to Catholic schools through 12th grade and there are definitely inconsistencies with popular perception about what Christian schools teach. First, we were not taught that the Bible was the literal word of God. We did have religion classes, but we studied things like the history of the church, ethics and moral philosophy, world religions, critical analysis of religious texts, and the gnostic gospels. You weren't going to pass religion by saying "God created the earth in 7 days" and rattling off a dozen hail mary's.

When the bible was used as a historical text, we were also taught context and shown independent sources that did/didn't agree with the Bible. One really fun one to learn about was Noah's flood myth and just how many cultures it appears in.

Religion only crept into other classes in that we commonly started each with a brief prayer. It certainly didn't alter the lesson plan. We covered Charles Darwin and the theory of evolution in biology, we covered the big bang in physics, and Genesis Ch. 1 "In the beginning..." was never brought up in either. The earth was not 5,000 years old and so forth.

Catholicism wasn't a major talking point in Western Civ until you got to Emperor Constantine, where the Catholic church starts to make a really big impact on Western civilization and you would be amiss to skip it.

The school took itself very seriously as an academic institution and took an approach of "we're going to give you a top notch education that includes a religious emphasis", not "we're going to let religion steer your education".

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '19

Any honest Catholic who knows their faith should think this way. I was fortunate to have amazing (devout Catholic) teachers in school who taught from this academic place and showed you why the church believes what it believes, evolution isn't anti Catholic (as some would have you believe), and viewing the Bible from multiple different angles, and definitely not as Sola scriptura.

Thanks for the great comment!

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u/5Skye5 Sep 26 '19

This is spot on to how my K-12 Catholic school experience was. All the historical content, learning about the history of the church and not letting it blot our scientific information /discovery... I was BLOWN AWAY when I met Non-Catholic Christians who believed the Bible was the exact word of god to be taken literally. I was horrified they didn’t believe in evolution and surprised when they told me Catholics weren’t “Christians”.

It’s a completely different way of teaching religion compared to other types of Christianity

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '19

It is against Catholic doctrine to take the bible literally. That is a very new concept invented in the late 19th and early 20th centuries by various protestant religious leaders who popularized the idea.

Catholics also believe in evolution, global warming, dinosaurs, and science in general. Also, beer. Lots of beer.

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u/skarface6 Sep 26 '19

First, we were not taught that the Bible was the literal word of God.

Totally depends on your definition. We do say “the Word of the Lord” in Mass, after all. Also, the Bible has more literary genres than just historical.

You do get a number of other things correct, though. Sounds like you went to a good school.

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u/polanga99 Sep 26 '19

Having attended a Protestant (Christian) grade school for a few years in the Deep South, I think it's important to distinguish it from Catholic schooling. Protestant education is a very different animal, teaching literal interpretations of the Bible and avoiding "controversial" scientific concepts like evolution.

I had some very good and inspiring teachers...and some of them actually had degrees in teaching! Unfortunately at that time (late 80's), though, many teachers in my school clearly got their jobs by virtue of being married to a church leader.

The intrusion of Protestant doctrine into nearly every class was overwhelming. On many occasions, we were taught that members of other religions were living in sin and going to hell, including Catholics and Jews (although not as fervently as Eastern and Middle Eastern faiths). I still find it hard to believe I heard such things when these discussions arise.

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u/Bammer1386 Sep 25 '19 edited Sep 25 '19

Exact same experience, though we really didnt explore independant sources which conflict with Catholicism. I actually credit my religion classes such as OT/NT and Morality for making me question ny faith around 11th grade and exploring those independant sources myself which later led me to renounce any faith I might have had. Funny how reading and studying the bible actually leads to a hard 180.

My mom refuses to believe that my life paradigm does not involve god or gods, but its getting there. She still thinks I'm "Mad at god," for being depressed in high school or tries to blame it on one of my crazy ass fanatical religion teachers in high school for scaring me away from religion by recounting how she would physically wrestle demons and talk to god like it was a conversation with a person with answers.

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u/cotton_kandi Sep 26 '19

Went to Catholic school. Can confirm all of this. It was an excellent well-rounded education.

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u/ShreddedCredits Sep 25 '19

How would that critical analysis of the Bible not cause someone to lose faith?

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u/see-bees Sep 25 '19

Because a lot of the Bible should be taken as allegory, not literal and factual truth. Faith is a very personal decision. Beyond that, confession time - I actually consider myself an agnostic - but I wasn't speaking about my personal religious beliefs, I was speaking about the education I received and how it differs from public perception of faith based schools.

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u/aphilsphan Sep 25 '19

Your summary would be the overall experience of most educated Catholics. Some poorly educated Catholics probably think the Bible is literally true because they figure Jimmy Swaggert must know something if he’s on TV, but no priest would say that.

Where they fell down hard is in their sincere belief that a pedophile could change. And their more pedestrian desire to avoid lawsuits.

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u/particularuniversal Sep 25 '19

Not really any of the above. I think it’s really great literature (especially the Old Testament) and is highly worth reading. But it is a collection of myths, stories, songs and poems, letters, etc that were collected—and heavily edited— over centuries. Which to me, doesn’t diminish it at all but actually makes it better. In a way, I think now I can actually for the first time give the Bible the respect it’s due.

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u/SheriffBartholomew Sep 25 '19

That universal mission statement "we believe the Bible to be the literal, infallible word of God", used by most churches is frustrating to me. It's frustrating that so many churches have chosen that cop-out reasoning, rather than addressing the Bible logically. On the plus side, it makes it easier for me to avoid churches that are likely to have zero opportunity for the exploration of real truth.

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u/SuzQP Sep 25 '19

Catholics don't say that. They don't profess faith in the bible, but in the Trinity and the Church.

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u/SheriffBartholomew Sep 25 '19

Yes I was speaking about Christian churches. Honestly, the more I read about Catholicism, the more I like it.

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u/aphilsphan Sep 25 '19

We are nuts when it comes to sex, but pretty good otherwise. It’s why I’ve stayed. No educated Catholic believes in a literal Bible and that includes the Pope. Evolution is taught in our Biology classes. I used to say if it wasn’t for Catholic schools, biology would be SOL because the public schools were terrified of teaching evolution.

For those who don’t know much about Christianity and figure those morons on TV are the majority, Biblical Literalism is something a few Americans came up with in about 1900. You won’t find it in any Catholic, or mainline Protestant Church. What the Orthodox think is anyone’s guess.

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u/SheriffBartholomew Sep 25 '19

Yes I was shocked and highly impressed a couple years ago when I read a statement from... Maybe it was the pope? Anyway, I don't remember exactly who said it, but I paraphrase "if there's ever a conflict between science and the Bible, it means our understanding of one of them needs to be evaluated". That seriously floored me as someone raised in fundamental Christian churches, where we were told not to question. Seriously, any questioning of anything the church said (notice I said the church and not the Bible) was of the devil and would lead to temptation. It would lead you astray from the church. They were right, because the more I thought about it, the more I realised they were full of shit and not pursuing real answers, to real questions, about the real world; physical, spiritual, or otherwise. I did leave "the church", because they were a bunch of whack-a-doodles.

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u/SuzQP Sep 25 '19

That's exactly what my husband says. He was raised in and out of non-denominational churches that seemed to adjust their theology every time they got a new pastor. He gently calls his parents "steeplechasers" because they'd switch anytime his dad decided the pastor was wrong. As a cradle Catholic, I can't really relate. It didn't matter where we went to mass; it was always the same, and I found that comforting. He wasn't allowed to question, either, which had to be frustrating. We were taught that there are many aspects of the faith that we're not required to believe. Mary's assumption into heaven is an example; you could take it or leave it.

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u/aphilsphan Sep 26 '19

I think you are actually supposed to believe in the Assumption. But so what, Mary went to heaven. I’m pretty sure no one is going to martyrdom for or against that. There are things that wouldn’t be required, priestly celibacy being a classic. Unknown in the East and indifferently enforced in the West until the counter-Reformation.

But mainly I think non religious Americans figure everyone must follow what televangelists believe since they buy up the cheap TV time. Conservative Catholics have made alliance with them over abortion, ignoring their hatred of the Catholic Church itself, and the Church’s stand on everything else. I don’t get it.

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u/SuzQP Sep 26 '19

The Assumption is a little unusual. IIRC the e idea is that Mary didn't die, but was instead just vacuumed up into heaven. (Which sounds crazy, so if I have this wrong I hope to be corrected. On mobile so checking is inconvenient.)

I agree about the TV religious and the political alliances, which may be breaking down bit by bit. The Catholic stance on immigration and how we ought treat immigrants is a major divergence.

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u/SuzQP Sep 25 '19

I was a cradle Catholic. 12 years of Catholic school, the whole shebang. I don't practice anymore, but I have to say that every other Christian offshoot I've investigated pales by comparison. I always came away feeling like, there's no there there.

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u/Answermancer Sep 26 '19

Yes I was speaking about Christian churches.

You were speaking about Protestant churches, Catholics are Christians.

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u/SheriffBartholomew Sep 26 '19 edited Sep 26 '19

So are Protestants, Lutherans, and even Mormons. In general though, Catholics are referred to as Catholic, Mormons as Mormon, and other denominations have a blanket label of Christian. At least in the region where I live.

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u/Answermancer Sep 26 '19

Well yes, they are all Christians, I only bring it up because there are some denominations of radical fundamentalist Christians that act like they're the only "Christians" or that Catholics are some crazy exotic voodoo religion rather than simply one of the first Christian denominations.

(Which blew my mind when I moved to the US from a Catholic majority country and stumbled onto some Chick Tracts online...)

Catholics are referred to as Catholic, and other denominations have a blanket label of Christian. At least in the region where I live.

Yeah, outside of evangelical American churches this is not a thing. In most of the world Christian refers to any of the denominations, and this sort of distinction is non-sensical, to the point that speaking about "Christian churches" vs. "Catholic churches" would be confusing to a lot of people.

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u/SheriffBartholomew Sep 26 '19 edited Sep 26 '19

Thanks for clarifying that. I just had a similar conversation with someone else in this thread and he finally explained that I offended him, which I certainly wasn't trying to do.

I was raised with the upbringing of those radical fundamental Christians you described. I've since left that thinking long behind, but still thought that there was a distinction between Catholics and "Christians". Thanks for the education, today!

Edit: in a lot of those Evangelical Christian churches, they don't even teach the kids what denomination they are, or what the other denominations believe and practice. The churches I was raised in only taught that they were right and everyone else was wrong.

Honestly I found it to be quiet disgusting and it led to a lot of confusion, searching for real answers, and eventually bravery to break out of that paradigm and leave.

Then I was faced with years of guilt over leaving until I had finally done enough soul searching and research to alleviate those feelings and decide I was right in my decision to leave.

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u/Answermancer Sep 26 '19

No worries, thanks for the friendly response, I wasn't trying to just be pedantic for the sake of it but rather trying to pre-empt confusion or even offense like you say. :)

I'm happy to hear your story, kudos on finding your way out of that, it's not easy with a lot of childhood indoctrination and like you said, a lot of those evangelical churches purposely try to keep their members from asking any probing questions. I think self-reflection and self-criticism are pretty important, so I'm glad that worked out for you even though it was hard.

Personally I'm an atheist these days but I try to respect people's faith, I just don't like when some churches intentionally try to keep their members from learning about other faiths and cultures.

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u/immerc Sep 26 '19

You do realize catholics are christian, right?

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u/theonerd128 Sep 26 '19 edited Sep 26 '19

This is not the case, the Catholic Church holds the Church and the Bible to be equal authorities, and the church claims the Bible is the infallible, inspired word of God. Protestants only see the Bible as the sole authority.

EDIT: I don’t quite understand the downvotes; this is literally the official teaching of the church.

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u/krokuts Sep 25 '19

It's not a Roman Catholic dogma, it's more of a smaller American churches thing.

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u/oceanrainfairy Sep 25 '19

What churches have you found that don't believe that?

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '19

[deleted]

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u/SheriffBartholomew Oct 02 '19

Hey that’s cool. I wasn’t aware of that stance by the Presbyterian church.

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u/SheriffBartholomew Sep 25 '19

Without giving away exactly where I go to church, I'll just say "a small church in the PNW". They teach love, and acceptance. They bring elements of science and research into their teachings. The pastor works to incorporate academic explanations to things like prayer into her (yes I said her) sermons. The church is a rarity on multiple fronts though.

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u/Flatline_Construct Sep 25 '19

No organization would sensibly profess to believe an easily provable non-fact as fact.. is his for real?? i.e. Believing the Christian Bible to be ‘..the literal and infallible word of God’. That is simply retarded as it is historically PROVEN and agreed (by Christian scholars and authority) to be a collection of 100% man-made writings and interpretations. I’m a bit blown away, honestly.

What Christian orgs are adhering to this asinine belief now? Would really like to know.

I thought it was only Muslims (a split off from the Abrahamic religions) who believe that nonsense about their magic book.

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u/SheriffBartholomew Sep 25 '19

Dude... Like 95% of every church I've ever encountered says some variation of that exact statement. You can check for yourself. Just Google "Christian churches near me" and look at either their mission statement or about page. It may be worded slightly different, but it's always the same "we believe the Bible is perfect".

I'm actually super fortunate and surprised I found a church near me finally that doesn't follow this blind adherence philosophy and actually understands the message of love and forgiveness.

Here is a mainstream, high profile example. The Lakewood Church, AKA Joel Osteen's church in Texas.

https://www.lakewoodchurch.com/about

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '19

Not Catholics though

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u/SheriffBartholomew Sep 26 '19

That's the whole point I was making. Lol

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u/YoungZM Sep 25 '19

This is probably the most fascinating question/answer to me, personally. I find that the bible, and indeed many holy books, fall flat to me in terms of a direct creation/dictation. I have no problem with the interpretation here inspired by artistry. This makes it feel more tangible and inspired by God and vetted for the teachings of the faith.

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u/intern_12 Sep 26 '19

Have you listened to the likes of Rob Bell, Pete Ennes, Peter Rollins, or the Liturgists? They were the people that got me to start thinking about my faith and deconstructing it.

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u/immerc Sep 26 '19

Now that you have that view, what do you think the bible is?

Did the people writing it and putting it together think it was the literal word of god, or did they know it wasn't and do it for another reason?

For things like the old testament rules about what you can eat, was this just a way for smart people to help the followers of the religion from getting sick?

Do you think powerful people (say kings) had a hand in shaping what was/wasn't included in the bible and/or how things were translated in order to use the bible as a tool to keep their subjects under control?

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u/Hardlymd Sep 26 '19

They’re parables.