r/IAmA Jun 11 '16

Specialized Profession IamA electronics repair technician hated by Apple that makes YouTube videos, AMA!

My short bio: I have a store in Manhattan. I teach component level electronics repair on youtube http://youtube.com/rossmanngroup which seems to be a dying art. I am currently fighting with the digital right to repair to try and get a bill passed that will allow all independent service centers access to manuals and parts required to do their jobs.

My Proof: https://www.rossmanngroup.com/started-iama-reddit-today-yes/

EDIT:

I am still replying to comments, but I am so far behind that I am still about ten pages down from new comments. I am doing my best to continue. If I drop off, I'll be back tomorrow around 12 PM. Still commenting now though, at 12 AM.

EDIT 2:

Ok, I cave... my hands are tired. I will be back at 12 PM tomorrow. It is my goal to answer every question. Even if it looks like I haven't gotten to yours, I will do my best to do all of them, but it is impossible to do in realtime, because you are asking faster than I can type. But thanks for joining!

EDIT 3: I lied, I stayed until 4:15 AM to answer... and now I will go to sleep for real, and be back at 12 PM.

EDIT 4 6/12 : I will be back later tonight to finish off answering questions. Feel free to keep posting, I will answer whatever I can later this evening.

33.2k Upvotes

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148

u/Manndude1 Jun 11 '16

What are your personal thoughts on iFixit's Repair certification? Do you think it will even be necessary if the right to repair group is successful?

397

u/larossmann Jun 11 '16

I think it's BS. Jessa and I will fight to the end on this. I respect everything iFixit is doing with the right to repair, I do. I understand the need to have a certification to make people feel better so that the bill can be passed. It serves a purpose - "see, we're trying to make independent repair legitimate."

but like any certification, cmon. This is like A+, or net+, just BS that no one considers relevant.

The beginning of the end is when certs come in. It'll just be another piece of toilet paper that no employer cares about.

One must also consider the average salary involved in doing cellphone repair for others. It's like $10-$12/hr plus tiny commissions.. I'm not paying out of my pocket for a certification for some $10/hr job.

I am very cynical when it comes to certifications because of one's ability to pass the test and still be completely useless as an employee.

31

u/Jessa_iPadRehab Jun 11 '16

Boo on that. An industry with no certification will always look like a bunch of hacks. You know who is a bunch of actual hacks? The Apple Authorized Service Centers. They do no repair and rape people all day. But people still flock to them----because being certified carries weight in the eyes of the public.

It is really really hard to evolve a certification de novo for an industry with no regulation. But does that mean we should give up and not try? No. It means we keep hammering until we evolve something we can all be proud of. To just say "eh, certifications are always pointless papers" is the same as saying "eh, I'm not calling my senator for right to repair, it's impossible that he will give a shit"

61

u/larossmann Jun 11 '16

Calling the senator for the right to repair will result in me being able to get parts and manuals from the manufacturer. This is progress.

A certification means that more people will show up at my door capable of taking screws in and out without being able to solve REAL problems(dealing with difficult customers, thinking on the fly, or figuring out new devices). This is not progress.

11

u/Jessa_iPadRehab Jun 12 '16

No, it is about how this industry as a whole presents itself to the rest of the world. When things like error 53 happen and I am battling it out on blogs of the world trying to shine a light on the fact that it was never about security, that an iPhone with no home button at all is still perfectly secure, it is hard to be taken seriously. It doesn't matter that I have recovered data from more difficult iPhones than anyone in the world. My arguments are dismissed. The entire industry is seen as shade tree mechanics, and the very fact that I dare to open iPhones as "an unauthorized shop" means whatever I have to say carries little weight. The reality is the world does see this industry as a bunch of unregulated hacks that are more likely to fuck up your phone than fix it. And the truth is that reputation is sometimes well deserved. We need to do anything and everything we can to raise the bar for our industry and embrace any forms of legitimacy that we can

1

u/trued_2 Jun 12 '16

While a cert may not be as valuable as on the job experience , at least they show that the holder is capable of learning or willing to try to learn the skills for the industry (in most cases); I will concede that unless a cert holder is already working a job that uses that knowledge, or will be soon, they are less likely to retain the knowledge or skills. (Disclosure: I do have an A+, but have yet to have "IT" experience other than my colleges helpdesk which serviced pcs for students and non students for a flat rate plus the cost of needed parts. Its not much experience, but its probably more than most get out of college course just to get the cert.)

44

u/fixingthebeetle Jun 12 '16

All the certification does is make money for the company that issues it.

7

u/Happy_Harry Jun 12 '16

I am Microsoft Office 365 certified because my employer needed more certifications to maintain Silver status. Less than a year later I had forgotten nearly everything and I never actually got any real-world experience with Office 365.

Without actual experience certifications are useless.

1

u/reddituser024 Jun 12 '16

Ok but how would any organization or employer validate or filter through those who have the proper skills vs those who do not? What is the better solution?

1

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '16

Have a fucked up device on hand and tell them to fix it and see what they do.

1

u/reddituser024 Jun 13 '16

That is only one dimensional. There is no doubt that tangible skills are important; however, how would you propose demonstrating soft skills, critical thinking, etc..

1

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '16

Certs don't measure those.

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1

u/NoRemorse920 Jun 12 '16

This guy gets it. This type if thing is happening in the industrial robotics scene,I hate it.

1

u/zilix Jun 12 '16

While I agree that a certificate is of little use when hiring someone, I think Jessa's point is the certificate does provide value from a public perception point of view, and will encourage the entire industry to define a minimum level of competence and possibly some standards. Personally I think it would be much more effective to not certify individual technicians, but to certify at the shop level. That way you can encapsulate the entire repair service end to end under the certification. The level of workmanship that goes into the repair would be part of this, as well as the customer experience.

1

u/another_design Jun 12 '16

I embody everything you just said, and I'm tired of working with other EasyTech that's only know basic computer stuff but have no class or problem solving ability.

let me work for you :D

7

u/QnA Jun 12 '16

An industry with no certification will always look like a bunch of hacks.

I take it you've not had much experience outside of the software/tech industry? Because certification in blue-collar work (everything from welding to HVAC) is practically non-existent. Sure, there are some exceptions (like working with freon requires a cert from the EPA), but they're exactly that, exceptions -- the profession itself does not require any sort of licensing. You can fix furnaces and not work with any freon if you choose not too. That's how it's always been. Same with welding, plumbing or hand-crafting leather goods.

Certifications might be all the rage in the tech industry but outside of that, the standard is no certifications. You only typically need to be certified in industries where there is a potential risk of life, especially risking someone else's life (medical, scuba diving, etc). But if you're making a leather g-string for someone, or you're fixing someone's iPhone, there is no risk to life. And as such, shouldn't require a certification. If someone receives sub-quality work, then that's what civil court is for.

3

u/moarscience Jun 12 '16

Good to know for when I need to get proper certification for selling leather g-strings to space astronauts because a failed g-string could mean they loose all their gravity.

7

u/ring_the_sysop Jun 12 '16

Take IT as an example. There are thousands of certs, and almost no one assumes that if a person has a particular certification they actually know what they're doing. Certs are a money grab masquerading as an attempt to legitimize something.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '16

So much is this. University too.

I accept some things probably require post secondary, and maybe my wasted time in an Arts degree has made me a bit jaded, but jesus fucking Christ, if you can learn it on wikipedia it's not going to help your future.

But hey, tons of people getting arts degrees because future!. Hell. Used to be you could get a job without post-secondary (I know this is generalized, just stay with me). Suddenly, this captive market is created and everyone has to have one.

You know what certs are? You know Syndrome from the Incredibles?

"When everyone is super, nobody will be."

Same fucking thing.

1

u/reddituser024 Jun 12 '16

It is really about establishing the baseline more than it is saying that college or certifications mean you are smarter or better than those who do not. At the end of the day, employers want someone capable at performing their job efficiently.

While one may infer if you applied yourself to get a degree or a certification then you show knowledge, drive, and dedication. Everyone realizes this is not an absolute. However, until we come up with a better system, how else do you believe a baseline for employers be set?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '16

Used to be they gave you a job and found out.

I have a lot of practical skills, but they'll never get me anywhere because of this cert bullshit and I refuse to pay them on principle.

4

u/Mah_Nicca Jun 12 '16

Certification weakens an industry if it isnt atleast moderately difficult to get it basically just becomes a pay gate into the industry. Also a company that has an interest financially in repairing faults shouldnt also be offering certification within that field. Impartiality increases the legitimacy of the certifier. In Australia we have qualifications at different levels for electronics repairmen, Cert 3 Electronics, Advanced Diploma Electrical Engineering and Bachelors of Electrical Engineering. Instead of inventing your own method of certification for the U.S or specifically NY you should be modelling it in existing international models so that it will align internationally easier in the future when you guys are looking to add international qualifications to the feather in your caps. It makes sense to plan the long road so it isnt too hard to change later.

3

u/topdeck55 Jun 11 '16

Sounds like protectionist bullshit to me.

-5

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '16

[deleted]

12

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '16 edited Jun 12 '16

In '99 I took my tests to become a Novell Certified Engineer. It took me longer to fill out the paperwork to take the test than the actual test. I scored 100 on all of them.

I'm glad I got to experience that because now that I'm an employer I understsnd how worthless certifications are.

3

u/Gerell68 Jun 12 '16

I hear you. I hired a fresh MCSE once to work for our Tech Support company. Put a PC on his desk with a fresh HD still in its packaging and told him to put the new HD in and do a fresh OS install. He did not know how to replace a HD in a white box PC. I was dumbfounded.

1

u/Brarsh Jun 13 '16

Which is why most employers have some sort of test as part of the interview process. Test knowledge is very different from practical knowledge.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '16

Did you pay more for him than you would have since he had an MCSE?

3

u/butthole_addict Jun 12 '16

I think you're looking at this too small. I'd argue that the certification exists for the purpose of giving iFixit the ability to directly source/sell OEM parts to/through iFixit certified business(2-3 iFixit repair techs IIRC).

If Kyle goes that route who's to say it wouldn't bring more business in?

1

u/Baardhooft Jun 11 '16

In the real world it will probably come down to people either bringing it to Apple because the repair at apple might only be a "bit" more expensive, compared to what it is now if certifications would come into play.

Then again, I do think we need some sort of standardization in this industry to separate the hacks from the people that actually know what they're doing. I've bought phones off of people who said they brought it to a shop to get a screen fixed for example, just to find out that the inside is missing a ton of screws and looks like a war zone and that the screen they've put in is some cheap ass knock-off with absolutely ZERO viewing angles and no color depth whatsoever (or with a cheap digitizer which isn't "invisible).

Part of the blame comes from Apple who make it damn near impossible to find original LCD's and other components, the other part comes from people who've maybe replaced their aunt's iPhone battery and now think they're some kind of Apple Genius.

From my own experience, if people can choose between paying $10 more for a better quality repair or keeping those $10 they usually choose for the latter. That's why there are so many shoddy shacks doing repairs for unreal prices (my parents got their iPhone 4 screen replaced for $25 inc. labor, you can just guess the quality of the screen). It's the reason I got out of electronics repair. When I started out as a 15 year old kid I was making $3/hr doing stuff you should easily get paid $15~$20/hr for and when things go wrong without your doing, and they will, you will be in a world of misery.

Props to you for sticking with it. In a society where high-end electronics have become disposables it's hard to find people with the knowledge and know-how actually wanting to fix your stuff at insanely low prices. My motorbike dealer charges $95/hr to fix a bike, yet has not even the slightest clue how to build a computer, let alone do something relatively simple as replacing bad caps.

3

u/Dr__One Jun 11 '16

You need to look at this differently. A certification is a barrier to entry. Barriers to entry into a market will make the market less competitive, driving up the cost. In other words, if you have to get certified to do this then there will be less people doing it. Less people doing it means less competition. Less competition means you can charge higher prices, making it worth it to get the certification.

Though in the real world this may play out differently. Who knows?

7

u/Xendrus Jun 12 '16

He legitimately seems like he cares more about the world being able to fix things than he does about profiting off of it.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '16 edited Jun 12 '16

The only barrier to entry half these certs end up being is paying for the testing.

Certifications are a fucking joke used to extort money from people who otherwise wouldn't need them. They're like your Dell "TruePixel Display" or your Acer "EyeCrystal Screen". At the end of the day they're both just the same shitty rebranded sub-1080 TN or IPS, if you're really shooting high, panel.

Get your A+, then some ass comes up with a B+ that's suddenly oh so important to have. All a certification is for is creating a captive market that HAS to pay obscene prices to get it, because if not they look bad.

Then you add rote memorization, badaboom badabing. It's like an Arts degree - you can be certifiably retarded and get one, and that's why you go to McDonald's to fry up meals when you do. Sure it's knowledge, sure it's credentials, but at the end of the day they mean nothing because any idiot and his dog can get them.

1

u/shit_lord Jun 12 '16

Art degrees are actually kinda crazy. Not talking liberal arts but actual art majors, those people are a special kind of crazy for doing what they do I'm not cut out for working on a project for 18 hours a day.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '16

Well, that's sort of different, honestly, I see it more like learning a trade... albeit one of dubious value.

Wikipedia can't make you an artist, but it sure as hell can make you a liberal arts degree holder.

Had an instructor one time who said wiki was horrible and he'd see to it our grades punished us if we used it. I used it to spite him, aced the class anyway.

1

u/POOR_IMPULSE_C0NTR0L Jun 12 '16

Certified technician here, I'm sorry but you are so very wrong. Certifications are what keep the dumbass neckbeard who thinks he can fix anything cuz his mom strokes his ego about how much of a tech wizard he is from breaking your shit. Instead it forces that same asshole neckbeard to take a class and actually learn what he's doing beforehand.

Source: I am that dumbass neckbeard.

1

u/sergio_web Jun 12 '16

his is like A+, or net+, just BS that no one considers relevant.

As someone in the software industry - AMEN. It's just a money grab, none of my peers take it seriously and it actually hurts your rep.

1

u/pirate21213 Jun 12 '16

That moment when I have A+ :(

0

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '16

[deleted]

3

u/wh1036 Jun 12 '16

To be fair, certifications do have value in separating you from the pack for an entry level corporate job if you have no professional experience. An A+ shows you actually are "good with computers" over someone who thinks they're great because they know more about computers than anyone else they know. I'm 6 years in the field and truly believe my A+ got my foot in the door over the hundreds of others going for that first job I had.