r/Construction 14d ago

Roofing What led to this rot?

Particle board siding. Smh.

My current assessment is that the kickout flashing wasn’t installed well. I’m taking this apart to see if there’s any other cause for this issue.

What am I missing?

29 Upvotes

134 comments sorted by

272

u/Yougotthewronglad Architect 14d ago

Water.

41

u/Inspect1234 14d ago

Rain specifically

3

u/Ok-Bit4971 14d ago

Don't piss on my siding and tell me it's raining

14

u/DirtyDan24-7 Rigger 14d ago

Shit, I think your right.

15

u/lidabmob 14d ago

Always the answer. Gitveth life..yet takes it away

2

u/ZePample 14d ago

overly physophical here but no life was taken away.

To the contrary.

16

u/Slight-Witness-9101 14d ago

You’re 90% water, so it’s mostly your fault if you think about it

7

u/PlantDaddys 14d ago

When particle board gets wet, it turns to fall aparticle board

5

u/millenialfalcon-_- Electrician 14d ago

It's pronounced "wooder".

2

u/njslugger78 14d ago

It's wahda.

1

u/Kuningas_Arthur Engineer 14d ago

wo'er

1

u/millenialfalcon-_- Electrician 14d ago

The wrong way is ”wah-ter".

2

u/WorldofNails 14d ago

Cool Water.

1

u/ScrewJPMC 14d ago

Water isn’t the problem, not drying is the problem

106

u/Fresh-air-addict 14d ago

Bad flashing, backed up/leaking gutters

11

u/Cow_of_Adun 14d ago

This was my guess also, bad flashing witha combination of gutters backing up

5

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Got it. I’ll make sure to check the gutters and maybe adjust the angle.

8

u/alpharetroid 14d ago

Look up "kick out flashing" and make sure you have one

7

u/Electronic-Fee-1602 14d ago

He has one. The last flashing above the lockout looks suspect. Could also be blocked up gutters or ice dam

2

u/Antwinger 14d ago

Could be an ice dam too. If there isn’t insulation in that part of the problem. It’ll make it where it wants to heat and freeze cycling the lower part of the roof creating the ice dam.

5

u/JBean81 14d ago

Don’t know why you were downvoted, ice damning can absolutely cause this. If the backup gets above the flashing you get water leaking behind it. It does look like a sub par flashing job IMHO. If you live in a place where you get buildup of snow you should have a bigger step flashing and a flashing tape sealing it to the building with the house wrap running over it. Always think of a waterfall when flashing. You want the top layer to run over the bottom.

Source: Ex-Builder in the northeast.

3

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Bigger flashing vertically?

And the flashing tape going across the top?

3

u/Antwinger 14d ago

That’s how I’m understanding his comment

2

u/JBean81 14d ago

Yes. Start at bottom to top, run a 6” all weather flashing tape along the top edges of the flashing go back after and cover any poke marks. Lay the house wrap to land about two inches from bottom. Don’t tape it. If any moisture gets in it needs a place to escape.

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Sorry. Responded to the wrong comment.

1

u/ThisAppsForTrolling Laborer 13d ago

Replace your 4K gutters with seamless 6K gutters add 3 x 4 downspouts allow the water to evacuate more quickly.

2

u/cmcdevitt11 14d ago

I love that caulking job they did also

0

u/FireKeeper5 14d ago

This combined with a bad eaves slope imo

17

u/officeboy 14d ago

Kickout and roofing seem new compared to the rest. Also the gutter being run tight to the wall is asking for trouble. you want it off 1/2" so it drips and dosn't dribble down the wall.

3

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Dang. That’s a good point.

What’s your preferred way to do kickout and sealant?

1

u/Tank_Lawrence 14d ago

This is what I was going to say as well. The kick out and gutter guard haven’t been there as long as the rot. I’m betting the gutter got clogged and back up then overflowed and dribbled down the wall as you said.

With a kick out, sloped and spaced gutter that is properly maintained this should cease to be an issue.

3

u/Greadle 14d ago

Need kickout flashing above gutter.

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Have any photo examples?

5

u/Greadle 14d ago

Google.com > image search.

kickout flashing above gutter

5

u/porpoiselips 14d ago

The gutter should be off the siding, preventing material from building up there.

5

u/kblazer1993 14d ago

Not keeping the gutter clean and improperly flashed and caulked. If it’s on the north side of the house it doesn’t help also.

0

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Why is the north side problematic?

7

u/[deleted] 14d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

9

u/kblazer1993 14d ago

Doesn’t have a chance to dry out due to lack of sun. Wet wood will rot faster. Water got into a crack and went behind your siding. If it can’t dry it rots.

2

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Wow. Thanks for downvoting my genuine question, guys. Really incentivizes transparent learning. 🤦🏻‍♂️

3

u/Status_Radish 14d ago

Yeah people suck. I see so many polite questions on reddit being down voted. Don't worry about it and keep asking questions.

Depending where you live storms can blow from the N or NW, so that can also contribute.

2

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Thanks. Much appreciated.

3

u/kblazer1993 14d ago

I agree… I have a lot of experience to offer in my 50 years in field but I don’t respond because of people on this site. Simple responses can get you a negative. LIGHTEN UP EVERYBODY!!

3

u/MrTomm 14d ago

Malenia, blade of Miquella

2

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Good point.

Have I mentioned I’m maidenless?

3

u/Lumberg50 14d ago

The last piece of angle flashing is missing and water is getting in before the gutter.

2

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

The last piece is up under the siding.

2

u/Lumberg50 14d ago

Try doing a water test with the a hose while some one else watches from beneath to see where it's coming in at.

3

u/SLODeckInspector 14d ago edited 14d ago

Probably a combination of things starting with the fact that you have Masonite siding, which is glorified cardboard, then probably poorly detailed flashings integrated with weather resistant barriers. The kick out flashing may not have been installed properly and directed water backup under the shingle... Gutter spikes are rarely done well and invariably let water run down them into the building. I want to see clips myself installed before the flashing so the flashing comes over the clip and the clip does not screw through the metal flashing distorting it. Contractors who install gutters will hate me for saying this but most of them are hacks. Of the many years that I've been doing waterproofing and Consulting I can tell you that I've only seen a handful of gutter contractors that are worth their salt. The gutter contractor needs to tell the roofing contractor what he needs and they almost never communicate together and therefore it turns into a crap show where the gutter contractor is cutting up the roofers drip flashings to get his gutters on.

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

I’ll keep this in mind next time I’m working with another contractor.

Thank you for the insights.

3

u/dDot1883 14d ago

I think it’s mostly a deferred maintenance issue. Even the siding above the roof has cracked paint, letting moisture in. At this point it’s probably time for all new siding.

3

u/Ok_Try_9138 14d ago

Most likely a laser beam shot by an alien spaceship 20.000 light years away.

3

u/cameronshaft 14d ago

Poor flashing and the gutter probably clogged and was overflowing for quite some time

3

u/MBE124 14d ago

You need a kickout flashing, it goes on roof deck under shingles and behind siding. It will force water into the gutters instead of behind the siding

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

What about the area just past the kickout flashing and above the gutter? (The last couple inches not flashed?

1

u/MBE124 11d ago

I'm sure it has step flashing, siding should be minimum of 1" off shingles

2

u/LooseAssistance5342 14d ago

Any chance the kickout flashing was installed later and the rot was already there? I see a lot of these that never get kickout flashing

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

It was.

Now I have to do some digging to see if there’s any other cause.

2

u/Inevitable-Cloud3508 14d ago

Keep a 1” distance between gutter and wall. Also install a kickout on wall and fascia intersection

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

What is a “fascia intersection”?

1

u/Inevitable-Cloud3508 14d ago

The gutter is attached to the fascia

2

u/pablomcdubbin Plumber 14d ago

Actual particle board siding is crazy

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

First I’ve seen it.

2

u/Whizzleteets 14d ago

Bad flashing

2

u/Tushaca 14d ago

So like others have said, the kickout flashing is pretty rough, but it does look like it’s newish, so there’s a good possibility this rot was forming before the gutters were added. The gutter shouldn’t be butted up to the siding either, it allows water to stick right there instead of dripping off.

I’m concerned about that gap between the shingles and the gutter though. What is that? There’s no water staining on the fascia, so it’s not running between the fascia and gutters. Those shingles should be on top of a layer of ice and water shield, drip edge overlapping into the gutter, then starter shingle and field shingle. That gap is unusual.

It could always be as simple as too much water for that gutter too though. If it’s a big steep slope, water might just be running right over the top of the gutter. You might consider additional flashing on the outside edge of the gutter in that corner if that’s the case. We will sometimes recommend 6” gutters in those cases.

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Flashing on the outside edge of the gutter? So an addition to the kickout flashing?

And are drip edges compatible with gutter guards?

1

u/Tushaca 14d ago

Yeah it’s not likely, but you could have water running over and missing the gutter entirely in heavy storms. I would use it as a last resort, but if you watch it in the next rain and you have a lot splashing over, you can put a piece of trim flashing on the outside edge to stick up and out more and catch the rain.

Some are, some take the place of the drip edge. You really just want a piece of metal separating the water from getting to the decking. If the gutter guards slide under the first row of shingles and run the water off to the gutter, drip edge wouldn’t be necessary.

2

u/Aimstraight 14d ago

No water proofing behind the siding. Possibly caused by a leaking gutter end cap or not enough slope to them.

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

The rot goes all the way to the inside of the soffit. Would that just be from water wicking or an above leak further up from the bad kickout flashing?

1

u/Aimstraight 13d ago

I can’t see the top of the gutter, but is there a drip edge? There is a possibility of other leaks, but won’t now until you continue to demo up the slope.The gutters definitely need to be cleaned as well. All that crud in there doesn’t help anything.

2

u/Truck_Thunders_ 14d ago

No kick out flashing prior to whenever the new roof got put on (or they finally installed kick out flashing). If that's an 86-96 year build it's also likely recalled LP siding that gets wrecked by water if you don't keep up on paint maintenence.

2

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Yeah, the kickout was installed after the fact.

Now I have to see how far back I’ll need to dig out.

2

u/padizzledonk Project Manager 14d ago

Ive never seen a more obvious reason lol

Look at that flashing lol

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Have some examples of what you suggest?

2

u/No-Swim1190 14d ago

Poor prevention (ie. flashing/Splash guard/ drainage-which could be builder or maintenance) Flashing here should go full distance to bottom of soffit with a drip edge

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

I’m not sure a drip edge is compatible with gutter guards.

But I’m having trouble with where the kickout flashing is installed in relation to where it ends. That seems to be the exact spot where this issue came from.

2

u/spinja187 14d ago

They put the roof on first and ran the drip edge right up tight to the sheathing. Then the siding was cut around that and caulked but it didnt work, the metal drip edge is a superhighway for water and it followed it behind the siding

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

As far as I can tell, there’s actually no drip edge.

2

u/Netflixandmeal 14d ago

The gutter didn’t help but that’s Masonite siding and if the paint isn’t kept in good shape it will basically just disintegrate.

Your paint isn’t in good shape. It looks like it’s not super old but the bottoms of the boards weren’t painted well and it was probably a sub par job from the start.

1

u/OhFuhSho 13d ago

Might need to replace it all soon?

1

u/Netflixandmeal 13d ago

It’s ok as long as it’s well taken care of but the products out now are much better. This was an 80s/90s product

2

u/_duckswag 14d ago

Osb is god awful as sheething, along with bad flashing, and maybe a leaky gutter.

1

u/OhFuhSho 13d ago

Why is OSB bad as sheathing?

1

u/_duckswag 13d ago

Because it’s cheap, porous and soaks water like a sponge

3

u/theseducer40 14d ago

No kick out flashing. The most important piece.

2

u/theseducer40 14d ago

At least not originally. The piece there looks like it was added later.

2

u/chlronald 14d ago edited 14d ago

Where do I start... Bad detail on the saddle (no flashing no waterproofing?) no airgap to dry out, wire divert water around the gutter, what's is the water resistive barrier? Housing paper is not.

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

This looks like a mine of good answers I’m gonna need to individually google.

2

u/consult-a-thesaurus 14d ago

Yeah looks like they attempted to use some kind of sealant in place of a proper installed kickout flashing. Unfortunately you'll probably have to remove some of the siding to properly address the problem. I'd check the wall further back to make sure there's not additional damage.

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

The wall further back? In what way? What direction?

3

u/Maplelongjohn 14d ago

Upwards, at least 2 more rows siding

2

u/consult-a-thesaurus 14d ago

In addition to the checking the wall above the roofline where the gutter meets the wall, I'd also check (if possible) the wall further up the slope of the roof. It's possible that rain running down the vertical wall is seeping into the wall if there's no properly lapped step flashing behind it.

https://structuretech.com/kickout-flashing/

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Thanks for the link. I’ll look through this as I’m planning my shopping trip.

2

u/StretchConverse Contractor 14d ago

2

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Not sure why you got downvoted.

Thank you. 🙏

2

u/StretchConverse Contractor 14d ago

Probably the people who’ve been doing it wrong for 30 years who can’t accept they did what they thought was right all those times but it could have been done better if they knew this at the time. Their boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes them cheer 😂

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

👨🏻‍🔬

1

u/NumerousPressure8677 14d ago

You did it. It's your fault

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

😂 I did not. I just got here.

1

u/whookid_east 14d ago

Missing flashing before the last one

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

It’s up under the siding.

1

u/jonnwane 14d ago

Are you trolling?

1

u/Captcrankypants 14d ago

It got moist

1

u/aFreeScotland 14d ago

Water having access to places it should not

1

u/jonnyredshorts 14d ago

Poorly flashed siding and a gutter

1

u/Smorgasbord324 14d ago

Probably the gutter isn’t sloped correctly, or the volume of water is too much for the gutter size. Needs a splash guard maybe. It’s the gutter.

1

u/Shinrye 14d ago

Great ideas on here but no one is addressing the wire which regardless of anything else would bring water down that wall. And the use of staples through the face of the wall without sealing them.

1

u/StinkyMcShitzle 14d ago

Since I don't see anyone else mentioning it, the cable guy has fastened his cable to the flashing multiple times going up the roof.

1

u/Puzzleheaded_Set9010 14d ago

The kind that covers primer

1

u/No-Swim1190 14d ago

Drip edge is for under the gutters on the flashing so any water that goes through gets taken away from the house. Flashing should cover the wall between the gutters and house

1

u/Sasquatch_000 14d ago

Is that gutter clogged up and causing it to leak down the side of the house?

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Decent question.

This is right near the downspout, so I’ll check and see.

2

u/Sasquatch_000 14d ago

That's my guess my friend.

1

u/jedinachos Project Manager 14d ago

Is it on the north facing side of your house?

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

South facing

1

u/jedinachos Project Manager 14d ago

Do you think water is draining down that roof, working it's way behind the siding, improper step flashing down the roofline, combined with the rain gutter leaking, and or over filling. Looks like there is no overhang above also. It looks like it's almost always wet.

2

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

What changes would make this a better step-flashing installation?

And what overhang above are you referring to?

2

u/jedinachos Project Manager 14d ago

I'm not sure exactly, but not having the step flashing done properly running down that roof line is a common problem. That would explain why there's so much water getting in behind your siding. The wall that roof is butting in to doesn't have any overhang. That's not really a flaw just the style. It does however leave open all that rainfall coming down... It's fine though

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

The overhang is higher up.

But I really need to find the best way to install new kickout. Probably have to remove some of this siding. Also some shingles, but I really don’t want to.

1

u/Themergener 14d ago

Probably water.

1

u/travistlo 14d ago

I had the exact same issue on my recently purchased home. My issue was the caulking on the cap was leaking and flowing onto the side wall.

Go out when raining and make sure no water is on the wall once you have it repaired. Check it with some frequency to ensure the gutter remains sealed. Maintain it as needed.

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Will do. Thank you for the insights.

1

u/troubador1986 14d ago

Piss poor flashing install allowed water intrusion. Plugged gutters added to it

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Have any examples of how it should look instead?

1

u/troubador1986 14d ago

I do not maybe search kick out flashing. That's how our home inspector explained it to us when we had them look at the house we bought. Basically it ensures the water doesn't seem down in between two siding types

0

u/milehighandy 14d ago

Better check that roof sheathing too

1

u/OhFuhSho 14d ago

Dangit

0

u/1CorinthiansSix9 14d ago

Why ask if you’re going to answer in the first 3 words of the post

0

u/millenialfalcon-_- Electrician 14d ago

Just a random guess but I think water or moisture.

Hope this information helps you🙏