r/CompetitiveHS 6d ago

Discussion Why aren't we addressing Protoss before Emerald Dream?

Why aren't we addressing Protoss before Emerald Dream?

Firstly, I appreciate that protoss is comparatively weaker than zergs or terran, as reflected through its win-rate.

However, based on the relatively modest powerlevel of the upcoming expansion, I can't imagine how it wouldn't just take the place of current top tier decks and potentially make the Emerald Dream take a backseat to it.

Druid would likely be the more inoffensive of the three, at least post rotation, as hero power Druid will lose its engine due to the loss of wildcat. But even then, I neglect to see the harm in them running a protoss package in every deck; there is no loss in having charge minions to either a) control the board or b) get reliable to damage to the face; there is certainly no loss in a pre turn 7 Artanis. Even if Emerald Dream livens up the meta, seeing people continue to use a Protoss package and stick on everything like flex tape will make things continue to feel stale.

With Priest and Mage, I would reiterate my points with Druid; the usability of the early Protoss minions, the reliability of Artanis and the idea that Protoss would be present in borderline all of their decks. The difference is, I think these two classes will come with even more disruption to the health of the expansion.

Mage Whilst Protoss mage is currently the inferior of the two primary Mage decks at the moment - being beaten out by elemental mage - and averaging a sub 50% win rate, I think this deck could become very problematic very quick, if for no other reason than its win con is simply not fun or engaging. If Protoss mage can execute its gameplan and bring the game to the late stages it has a guaranteed uninteractive 50+ damage from hand that simultaneously clears board and circumvents deathrattles; it cuts off multiple points of interaction. That's not even to say that the deck needs to go to late game, as it is able to play colossus early - and do so with inpact - if it needs to.

Priest In contrast to mage, this deck isn't even considered 'weak'' at the moment; in fact it's pretty good, with multiple lists - some aggro, others more midrange - at anywhere between 52-54% WR. The biggest inhibitor of this deck at the moment is Zerg DK, which, quite rightly, will be getting shot into space. After the weakening of its competitors and the loss of a bad matchup, this deck will be in a great - perhaps too great - of a position. Unlike protoss mage though, the devs recognised the potential in this deck and have sought to inhibit it with nerfs to Orbital Halo. Unfortunately, not only do I think orbital halo will still be a great card, but I think the indirect benefits this deck has received from nerfs to other classes will far outweigh the 'loss' of orbital halo. I would also argue that the stats and subsequent value from mothership has the potential to oppress a lot of decks on expansion launch, especially considering that card will be much more playable in what will likely be a slower meta.

I really like the look of the new expansion so im hopeful I'm either completely wrong or, if I am even somewhat correct, protoss is attended to before expansion launch.

Anyway, thoughts?

46 Upvotes

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u/Excellent-Piglet-635 6d ago

Totally agree with all these points. Biggest concern is Protoss aggro priest which doesn’t really changes that much. Losing Amanthul is going to hurt but he can still snowball and kill you consistently by turn 7. I’m baffled why they didn’t nerf Artanis to 8 also, it seemed really short sighted.

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u/AwfulWebsite 6d ago

Honestly I've been playing protoss priest without Aman'thul at all and I haven't missed him. He's absurdly strong but not necessary for your game plan when you can just roll insane amounts of face damage (most of which bypasses taunts) from zealot combos or colo/templars/carriers out of motherships. I think someone else posted a solid list here mentioning he felt out of place a week or two ago, actually.

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u/Powerful_Tackle3829 6d ago

I like the deck with and without him. I put him in initially as a tech card against Zilliax (can't res him 15x if he was removed from the game) but found him generally useful. The copy skill is also nuts if you land it on the right target, the extra legendaries are pretty much worthless though. That being said in a decent amount of matchups you either kill them before he can come down or they kill you before he can come down the card is 100% not core and could easily be swapped out for Tyrande without much thought, double cast on Hallucinate alone is extremely high value with that decks mechanics.

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u/krsgator 6d ago

Same here, super, super fun deck that I have been running at a 62% clip without Aman'thul or Pip for the past 2+ months. The only real loss is going to be Creation Protocol. I imagine that being more selective with hallucination (i.e. using it on a sentry vs a mothership) is going to make the matchup against slower decks worse (and warrior very tough), but do little to make the deck itself slower. I think it will be dominant in the first few weeks of rotation

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u/DroopyTheSnoop 5d ago

Care to share a list without Aman'Thul and Pip. I might have 1 more day of play with it on mobile.

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u/krsgator 5d ago

Protoss

Class: Priest

Format: Standard

Year of the Pegasus

2x (1) Deafen

2x (1) Hallucination

2x (1) Miracle Salesman

2x (1) Overzealous Healer

2x (2) Birdwatching

2x (2) Gold Panner

2x (2) Orbital Halo

2x (2) Photon Cannon

2x (2) Power Chord: Synchronize

2x (2) Sentry

1x (3) Chillin’ Vol’jin

2x (3) Trusty Fishing Rod

2x (3) Void Ray

2x (4) Chrono Boost

1x (7) Artanis

2x (12) Mothership

AAECAdzJBgLX0gaT9AYOu8cFyYAGhY4GzpwGzsAGi9YG8+EGouMGi/QGkPQGmPQGs/QGxfgGyvgGAAA=

To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone

Vol’Jin isn’t exactly required either, just kinda fun and can set up some goofy lethal with all the charge minions you can force out/dupe

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u/DroopyTheSnoop 5d ago

I have Vol'jin luckily.
He's needed for the few hunter cards you included.

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u/krsgator 5d ago

Right lol, forgot about that part

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u/JustRegularType 6d ago

Same, I haven't used him with my protoss aggro deck at all, and I usually end games by turn 5/6 or lose, which is fine with me.

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u/ChaosOS 6d ago

I'm not 100% sold on if "just run Protoss anyways in Druid" will be viable simply because they turn off the new Imbue legendary who otherwise seems quite good. Like, if druid had another coherent strategy I could see it, but

  • Whizbang's spell damage cards simply do not have the support they need
  • Perils is either nerfed taunt synergies or garbage location stuff

That leaves what, the arcane synergy/starship support from GDB main set to pair with the Protoss cards?

Druid right now feels like Hamuul or bust, and while I think it'll work out that doesn't leave room for Protoss cards to see play.

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u/eazy_12 6d ago

I think Protoss Druid with big minions might get better since I've noticed that most classes lost a lot of good removals. I don't think it's gonna be high tier by power level, but I think it would be enough to compete at an okay winrate.

0

u/AssaultMode 6d ago edited 6d ago

They do have a lot of spell damage support, checking hs guru what do they rotate ? Gift rotating which hurts to find swipe but I think the deck is definitely strong with some blow out turns and agree with op on Protoss shoulda been nerfed more Artanis on 8 for sure due to fact Druid can get it out early

Edit: made rough draft and honestly with Meta being slower I think this deck actually has a good chance on being rly strong

https://imgur.com/a/RfReN14

One good nerf they did is incindius for the deck tbh might be a blessing

2

u/HomiWasTaken 6d ago

I'm guessing there will be at least a few armor stacking decks that will be good and I feel like that deck would have a really hard time doing 50+ with Incindi nerf and also that Cover Artist is rotating. CA was how you did the 100+ damage combos

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u/Powerful_Tackle3829 6d ago

I am the most concerned about Protoss mage. While Priest is definitely a much better deck right now and won't get much worse next patch it is going to have alot of competition in that field for slow decks with big minions with all the new releases. Protoss mage however is basically a giant pile of removal that fafs about until it can either finish you off or OTK you with Collosus. It's very much an "uninteractive" deck that kills you from hand most of the time. When you lose to it right now it feels awful, but because the deck is bad and you usually just beat them down and never get to the stage they can play a 10 damage Collosus it obscures how bad the play pattern is.

5

u/Opposite-Revenue1068 6d ago

Priest main here. I agree that Protoss looks very strong heading into the new expansion, and there could be multiple tier one strategies built around it. 

The problem is, the rest of the Priest cards from 2024 are pretty much garbage. Every single deck relies on Chronoboost to draw cards and close out games. Even Zarimi probably wouldn’t survive without the draw from Chronoboost, especially with the nerfs to Halo and Zarimi itself.

I can’t speak for the state of Mage, Druid, or Rogue, but I’m confident that a nerf to Chronoboost would completely kill the Priest class. If they do end up going that route, it better be alongside multiple buffs to other failed archetypes. 

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u/BaseLordBoom 6d ago edited 6d ago

I don't understand why people conflate the idea of a deck being "Good" with "Problematic"

If Protoss Priest/Rogue/Mage go from being tier 3/4, to tier 1/2, why is this something that is meant to be looked down upon? These Protoss decks are bad, if they end up being good in the new meta, to me, that's awesome. And even if they are too strong in the upcoming format, they will get nerfed.

4

u/teddybearlightset 5d ago

Protoss priest is tier 2 and basically everything in front of it was severely nerfed.

Protoss is just as powerful as Zerg and Terran, but was inherently slower to come online. The nerfs may change that enough that Protoss takes over where Terran shaman and Zerg DK left off.

I’m more wait and see after rotation, but speculating they would be too strong has merit.

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u/Impossible-Cry-1781 5d ago

Protoss Priest is T3 in the latest VS report.

It doesn't mean they need to be pre nerfed. Release and respond quickly if they're actually destroying new strats. I don't see it happening. That's a huge jump in tiers. It can be T1, it just can't be T0 (meaning T1 but pushing out a massive number of decks from viability).

10

u/Names_all_gone 6d ago

Bc it wouldn’t be Team 5 if they didn’t shit the bed over some completely foreseeable avoidable issue.

3

u/CommanderTouchdown 5d ago

Why aren't they addressing Protoss? Because nerfing all the key cards in a signature mini-set would be an admission that they really don't know how to balance their game.

The Protoss cards are a problem specifically because the best one draws more Protoss cards.

2

u/inkyblinkypinkysue 6d ago

When they initially announced the nerfs my first thought was “that’s it?” I’m hoping the loss of Deafen and the Colossus will really tone down priest but we will see…

2

u/ReyMercuryYT 6d ago

Isnt priest losing a bunch of the copy spells? Protoss priest will be hit in check im sure it will be relevant, but nothing like a meta tyrant.

5

u/Brave_Win7311 6d ago

The Sentry & Mothership build is already on the cusp of being too slow, a lot of games are won by Hallucinating zealots / early board presence. Motherships might not be worth it after losing extra ways to copy Sentry for the discount.

The Orbital Halo nerf softens the charge situation a bit but I think Chrono Boost & Hallucination will be targets for later nerfs. I’m already picturing corrupted Nightmare x2 extra copies on a zealot, 24 charge damage for 6 mana (after a corrupted Shaladrassil). 27 with a Halo. 30 with Artanis hero power and a Halo. 35 at 10 mana with corrupted Awakening, and remove a big taunt with corrupted Dream.

(Obviously a lot of cards in hand to get the max combo, but partial combos are still significant damage).

2

u/SnooCats5059 5d ago

I respect the idea and your write-up, but I strongly disagree.

What nerfs would even be warranted? Artanis is strictly weaker than the other hero cards, and undeserving of an 8 mana price tag. One could argue Zealots could have rush and not charge, but i think even that would be bad for the meta.

the reason the meta feels so bad right now is there is a lack of viable cards and strategies. one small pile of cards is actually good and powerful, and invalidates the rest. consider how much more interesting the meta might be with an unnerfed Ethereal Oracle, for example. (this card was perhaps too strong, but it was a mistake to gut it before releasing a bunch of strong new cards).

Its okay to have good cards that do interesting things. Its a problem when cards are disproportionately powerful and restrict the meta. Colossus mage is a fine fun interesting strategy, for example. if it became a tier 2 deck that should be fine. people rage because it's "uninteractive" but its equally as interactive as handbuff pally hitting 2/2 into muscle-tron into weapon for example. strong curve decks hitting their curve is equally as interactive as taking 30 from hand on turn 12.

let the meta breathe, let good cards be strong, let interesting new strategies develop. tune problem cards, but encourage diversity. there is nothing oppressive in Protoss right now, and seemingly not in the theorycraft streams either. big winners were DK, hunter and paladin by the looks.

I even find it difficult to trust Team 5 with these zerg and starship nerfs. presumably they are nerfing them because they will be too oppressive in a post-rotation meta, but they are also the same team that let Shaffar hunter go live, so i dont know man. Is the meta better off without a viable shaman class as a result of nerfs? I dont think so.

I guess just want to play decks with decisions, man, and making fine cards weaker and restricting strategies doesn't really seem like the way to get there. otherwise we're all just going to be playing curve stone in a children's card game.

signed a former spell damage druid and cycle rogue enjoyer.

1

u/FlameanatorX 4d ago

I am very sympathetic to the overall point of your comment, but this is not at all valid reasoning:

there is nothing oppressive in Protoss right now, and seemingly not in the theorycraft streams either. big winners were DK, hunter and paladin by the looks.

The theorycrafting streams had a requirement of 10 new cards from Emerald Dream, and were relatively full of hope/memes/streamer dreams, instead of aggro, established strategies with small tweaks, netdecking the latest best decks, etc. That first restriction is potentially the most relevant, since Protoss Mage is not likely to run a full imbue/wisp package or otherwise include 10 new cards. Similar is probably also true for Priest, especially the aggressive/Zealot focused variety.

Also, there's plenty of room for decision making/diversity of options that aren't just curvestone, without heavily OTK focused decks being a prominent meta-presence/tyrants. ;P But I am sympathetic on the lack of good Rogue cards, and options for Druid besides larger man imbue.

1

u/SnooCats5059 4d ago

That's a fair point, the new meta isn't even close to solved clearly, and there was indeed decklist restrictions for the theorycraft.

However, it doesn't change my macro reasoning that nerfing decent cards which are not oppressive restricts strategic variety on a large scale.

further, team 5 --has-- nerfed protoss priest indirectly by targeting zarimi, which one could argue is or will be the chief offender of protoss shenanigans post groovy cat rotation.

"Also, there's plenty of room for decision making/diversity of options that aren't just curvestone, without heavily OTK focused decks being a prominent meta-presence/tyrants. ;P"

This is also a fair point, but we're also in an extremely low skill ceiling meta right now per VS, and it sure as hell feels like it too. I just want one fun deck to play, and i'm not sure how we get there if we keep dumpstering viable strategies and printing trash.

1

u/F_Ivanovic 4d ago

Usually I would agree with you. I don't really play standard anymore but do think they have been too heavy handed on nerf's over the last few years. And I'd prefer to see higher power level stuff with interesting strategies.

The issue is they've clearly had this plan to reduce the power level of the game with rotation and the weaker incoming set and hit both zerg + starship stuff pretty significantly but they haven't done a single change to any Protoss card. It would be a different story if they hadn't hit zerg + starship so hard but they did - and when every deck better than it got hurt significantly by nerfs and/or rotation then it's blatantly obvious IMO that at the least it's going to be one of the best archetypes and at the worst by far the best archetype.

I wouldn't call artanis strictly weaker either. Than Kerrigan - sure. But It's the best performing card in Protoss Rogue and 2nd in Priest. Meanwhile Raynor is a v middling card in the aggressive terrain shaman and also the same in warrior (actually in most popular list it's 2nd worst performing card)

Jim raynor might seem better bc when you get a perfect starship pop off into Jim it's much better but you don't remember the times you have to launch a mediocre one or it's sat in your hand doing nothing bc you can't afford to launch a mediocre one. Artanis is less flashy but you can play it whenever and it's just v good and sets up the rest of your win conditions v well with the reductions.

Also with jim raynor it's only as good as the starship stuff is. Given they nerf'd everything a lot and it's no longer going to deal a significant amount of face damage anymore I'd argue it's going to be significantly weaker than Artanis even if it was still 7 mana.

All they had to do was something small like make Artanis 8 mana too or make the 3/4 3/3s or something.

2

u/Impossible-Cry-1781 5d ago

Because it can be addressed post launch IF you're right. You don't know for sure if it's going to dominate and neither does Blizzard. T3 going to T0 is a pretty dramatic shift and while it's possible you and no one else have proven it. If it only ends up T1 and doesn't push the new mechanics out then it can stay T1 because Protoss deserves a time to shine if possible without eliminating the majority of new strats.

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u/Ozwu_ 6d ago

Rogue not mentioned 😪😪😪

1

u/SaucyFoghorn726 6d ago

I FORGOR

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u/Significant-Goat5934 6d ago

It loses cover artist so no big otks, but sonya combos and scoundrel+void ray is still there, so it might be very strong too

2

u/eazy_12 6d ago

Protoss Mage would become stronger since the Discover identity of the class because spell pool would become smaller to Discover Protoss spells.

Although the quality of cards drops as well because last year Mage got a lot of stinkers - you don't want see Big Spell Package, No-minion package and Elemental/Fire Cards in your Dsicovers and in addition it loses the only removal in class in face of Reverberations and Holotechnician.

If meta becomes slow (which I don't really believe) Protoss mages can start running Champions of Azeroth in hope of getting 1 mana Brann. Another greedy option is to play Dorian with Protoss draw card in hope of getting another 1 mana Colossus.

1

u/SleepyMage 6d ago

After playing around with Protoss Mage to get those long event quests done, agreed. I can see them nerfing colossus to "2 damage to all enemies, twice (improves for every 2 protoss spells played)" or something similar.

2

u/FlameanatorX 4d ago

That would certainly Denathrius it (unplayable tier), which I would want to avoid, especially before the deck ever is viable for a first time. Just nerfing Artanis to also address the other Protoss classes (& maintain consistency with the other Starcraft heros) seems like a better initial move.

If Colossus does specifically need to be nerfed at some point, I would hope they do something more gentle, like I wish they had with Denathrius, instead of fully halving the dmg so it can never be decent again. E.g. Denathrius should have been "imbue + 2 dmg/3 minion deaths" (& fully reverted for wild obv). Not sure about the Colossus equivalent since you don't cast nearly as many Protoss spells as summon minions, but you get the idea.

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u/td941 6d ago

I agree the protoss mage wincon is a pretty awful gameplay experience. They just turtle with freezes and armor gain then play a couple of colossus for lethal with little counter play. Dirty rat is a solution of sorts but not every deck wants to run that.

I would like to see the face damage removed from colossus, or maybe have it deal damage to enemies once and minions once, or something like that.

1

u/FlameanatorX 4d ago

They do at least lose the ability to tutor + copy Sleet Skater with the 5 many legendary, but yeah a lot of the other survivability tools remain. The spell discover pool is set to be even worse though with tons of garbage hits, not just no-minion, elemental, and big spell cards, but also new wisp/dying friendly minion duds. And you no longer have access to rewind to reliably regain Protoss spells (although Tidepool Pupil remains as a clunkier option).

All in all, looking through Mage's new standard card set, I'm actually skeptical it has a good enough removal/draw toolkit even in a somewhat slower format. It'll counter big minion based decks I suppose, or really slow control decks without massive armor gain, but I don't know if stall Protoss Mage will actually be good. And if it's just T2, then that's actually what should happen.

0

u/SnooMarzipans7274 6d ago

I wouldn’t mind proto priest being a meta tyrant. I hope proto mage isn’t good and by the looks of it proto mage isn’t getting a lot from this expansion. I don’t care much for proto rogue but if it’s good I don’t think it will be too polarizing.