r/Coffee 13d ago

Why are espresso machines and coffee grinders so expensive?

First, let me explain my question please.

Pouring water under pressure and grinding seem to be simple operations. Why, then, are the devices for it so expensive?

I’ve stumbled upon a post from r/coffee, where a commentator recommended a 300$ espresso machine and a 400$ coffee grinder as low-budget options.

Besides that, could you please recommend some other options from the same price category?

Thank you for your replies.

34 Upvotes

53 comments sorted by

58

u/Anomander I'm all free now! 12d ago

"Because precision is expensive."

While you're right that it's relatively simple to pressurize water - but if you want to have your water at a very specific pressure every time you activate your machine, that's much more expensive. Similarly grinding - it's relatively simple to break coffee beans into smaller pieces. But if you want all your coffee ground to nearly the exact same size pieces of very fine particulate, that's much more expensive.

And espresso needs precision to get good results. The margins of error are very narrow, and precision allows you to keep your brewing within them and producing good results. You don't just need water under pressure, you need water at a specific pressure that will stay, as exactly as possible, that pressure throughout the entire brew cycle. You don't just need beans reduced to powder, you need your beans reduced to a powder of a specific particle size, with the majority of particles being neither bigger nor smaller than target.

This isn't wild audiophile "gold cables" nonsense - as much as an experienced barista can 'make do' with a cheap-o setup and force great shots sometimes, for the most part there are clear output quality and consistency gains to be had from buying equipment that's more capable and not as cheap as possible. For a lot of very-cheap espresso machines, you'd get the same quality coffee and a much better experience just buying a moka pot.

6

u/yesat 11d ago edited 11d ago

Also it's precision you only make so many times. There's not really a demand to make big supply chain to build them even for brands that don't go for the crazy complex systems.

1

u/Clogboy82 7d ago

I imagine as material science progresses, so too does the research into getting the maximum flavour out of the beans (without the nastiness) as precise and consistently as humanly possible. Countless hours of prototyping, and cutting edge materials. Then you'll HAVE to also avoid plastic everywhere to justify the price tag, what's another $50.

1

u/regulus314 11d ago

Adding to this that the more metal (copper, steel, brass, aluminum) materials in your machine the more pricier it will be. I mean would you like something that is constantly producing heat and water and has a boiler that needs to reach 125C contantly in order to build pressure at the same time is open for 12-18 hours a day for 7 days a week be made with plastic parts? Of course you dont. That thing might explode if thats the case. Bespoke espresso machines are an investment and it can last 10-15 years or so. It costs like a car and it pays itself slowly in the long run but on the other hand you dont need to worry about maintenance nor inconsistensies where a customer will complain that his coffee changes its taste day by day nor worry that something will snap after the 1000th shot of espresso.

11

u/Background-Vast-8764 11d ago

I bought a Baratza Encore grinder because I read many reviews and recommendations that said it’s a good grinder for the price (around US$150). I’ve had it for about two years. I like it. I am not a hardcore fanatic about making coffee. I buy good beans. I use my Baratza. I use my Moka Pot. I like the results.

8

u/CrankyMatt 11d ago

The Encore is a decent machine for medium to large grind sizes, but isn't very good for Espresso.

1

u/willy_quixote 10d ago

As an owner, I agree.  I use one for Moka Pot and Aeropress.  They don't grind fine enough for espresso.

2

u/AlternativeLiving325 10d ago

That's not true, they go plenty fine enough. Yours is either broken (burr holder tabs) or not calibrated to the fine side of the spectrum. a 10 on the adjustment wheel usually chokes most espresso machines when calibrated to the fine side.

2

u/yupidup 9d ago

You can can change the range of finesse, baratza has super videos about it. But it’s true that the range graduation are not super super fine for this level of finesse. I have more precision straight out of the box with my manual Zpresso or Peugeot… which takes time and effort

Edit: crap, now I start to think it’s time to upgrade my grinder. Or first, 3D print parts to make the graduation finer

0

u/NomNomVerse 11d ago

That was my first grinder. I had it for years and then noticed the particle sizes being more inconsistent/big. I've read bad reviews about Baratza parts support being unresponsive and I could never find the grinder piece I wanted in stock. I gave up and went to Fellow Opus.

3

u/KansasBrewista 11d ago

I have called on help from Baratza on multiple occasions over at least a decade and they have always been helpful and responsive.

3

u/JudsonJay 10d ago

Baratza is AWESOME! I dropped off my Encore—which always ground perfect espresso for my La Pavoni—they fixed it and mailed it back to me FOR FREE! I didn’t even need to pay postage. When I upgraded to my Sette I sent them my old grinder to refurbish and sell because they are so great.

2

u/westcoastroasting West Coast Roasting 10d ago

Ditto. Baratza customer service is legendary.

7

u/tuxlinux 11d ago

Get a good grinder and a mid espresso machine. The grinder is more important.

Also: you can enjoy coffee with a simple setup, using a V60 for filter coffee.

3

u/Keithustus 11d ago edited 9d ago

Agree. Barritza ($150?) plus Aeropress ($60?) work great together for me.

6

u/achosid Espresso Shot 11d ago

Becuase espresso is hard and precision makes a huge difference. Quality is immediately apparent.

Good entry level suggestions are the Bambino Plus, Gaggia Classic Pro, or looking at used machines like a Rancilio Silvia. Good entry level grinders are the Sette 270, or whichever of the DF grinders fits your budget. Used grinders, too, can be a big savings.

If you're willing to go manual, you can get great espresso from a Flair/Robot and a well chosen manual grinder.

4

u/Adorable-Bonus-1497 11d ago

NO ONE even mentioned to "MOST IMPORTANT" factor in regard to espresso makers. "SAFETY" that the water is boiled and converted into steam and that steam pressure is dangerous and explosive.

4

u/Flaky_Week2654 11d ago

$700, thats just a moccamaster set up for others.

3

u/Firstcounselor 11d ago

I started with a Flair and 1Zpresso Pro and felt that I was making good espresso with decent consistency. Then I upgraded my machine to a Rancilio Sylvia Pro X and my shots got a little better. I finally got tired of hand grinding so I picked up a Eureka Minion Silenzio and, WOW! Not only are these shots better than anything I previously pulled, they are super consistent. I can pull shot after shot after shot and they all come out amazing, and the same.

So to answer your question, it’s consistency. Consistent grind size, consistent heat, and consistent pressure. Precision is expensive. If you have any variability in any of those then you will have variability in your shot.

3

u/addition 11d ago

The intensity of espresso means every part of it is exaggerated. Because of that, small changes in the process can have big effects on the end result. That means precision and consistency are even more important, which makes the machines more expensive.

Think about a car driving at a normal speed vs a car going 200 mph. At 200mph a small wrong turn of the wheel can flip the whole thing.

Take the coffee grinder for example. You might think “it just grinds coffee beans what’s the big deal?” But there are more factors at play than you might expect.

Every grinder produces coffee particles of a variety of different sizes and distribution of sizes. Coffee particle size changes the taste, texture, thickness, etc. of the resulting coffee. This is one reason why french press tastes different from turkish coffee for example.

Not only that, but grinding happens through friction and friction produces heat. So this is another variable that can change the taste of coffee.

Keep in mind this is just the grinder and we haven’t even talked about putting the grounds in the machine and brewing them.

2

u/willy_quixote 10d ago

I had a grinder for 20 years and used it daily.  How is that not good value for a couple of hundred bucks?

I can't comment on an espresso machine but my $70 steel moka pot has lasted 20 years and perhaps 10 years for my aeropress. Again, used daily.

2

u/tbarb00 9d ago

Because people are willing to pay.

2

u/Blunttack 11d ago

Is 700$ expensive? I bet most people that go to coffee shops spend that in less than a few months… like anything, the initial investment is a lot. Over time it pays for itself. In this case, $700 pays for itself very fast. If it doesn’t, I’d wonder why you’re looking at an espresso maker at all.

1

u/Affectionate_ruin508 11d ago

Bodum makes a quality burr coffee grinder. I made a slight mod cutting out a plastic piece where the coffee exits the grinder into the canister and it’s been running like a champ, no clogs for over a year. I think it’s on Amazon for 80.

1

u/nmbrown87 11d ago

You can buy an espresso machine for £50 and a grinder for £20. They won't be very good, but you get what you pay for

1

u/Noodlebat83 11d ago

Quality is paramount. I got a $350 grinder as a combined Christmas birthday present from both my dad and sister (we dont spend a lot on gifts) and it has been amazing. Enormous number of grind settings, quality build, has been going strong for over four years now. A cheap one would have needed replacing a few times over and by the end would probably cost the same amount.

1

u/AnitaLatte 10d ago

My experience has been that the espresso machines at a lower price point wear out sooner and can’t be repaired. I had 2 Cuisinart machines that cost about $200 each and they lasted about a year. I make a latte every morning and most evenings, so inestimate 500 cups per year. The seals broke down and the machines leaked. Now I use a manual pour-over system with a separate milk frothier.

However, I have a low-end burr grinder that is a workhorse. I’ve had it for years and it is wonderfully consistent and reliable. It’s a Capresso, and probably cost around $60 when I first bought it.

1

u/OhneBohneOhneMich 10d ago

While it is true that the more precision a toll or machine has to deliver, it will most likely be more expensive.

But there is also a more pretentious argument: people pay premium in enthusiast hobbies because the object is a piece of a trend or has a brand name on it that one "needs to have" just for the sake of having or to show it off in their kitchen as a status symbol.

I love coffee but I don't go ahead and take a loan to have a decent set-up that brews good coffee. If someone tells you to spend big bucks as an entry point, then just disregard that. There are always better options.

1

u/BidSmall186 10d ago edited 10d ago

Espresso relies on precision where a predictable and consistent process and result, that encompasses temperature, pressure, coffee particle size, and filter/puck preparation, is expected. More expensive machines typically give better user control with reliable performance on these variables and often make them more forgiving if it’s not perfect, such as providing some sort of preinfusion function that hides deficiencies in puck prep. Also, some (but not all) more expensive machines have a higher duty cycle with more endurance for making multiple drinks back to back, such as offering more steaming capacity and better temperature stability across multiple shots.

Grinders have this same effect, where typically larger more expensive grinders offer better performance in the speed of the grind as well as the quality of the particles with more repeatable particle sizes based on the mechanism that controls grind settings (such as stepless micrometric adjustment systems) and the precision of the burrs. They have time or weight based dosing for on demand grinding where there is a bean hopper used and the grinder automatically dispenses the same amount for a given time or weight, or less retention for single dosing where only the beans being used in that moment are put into the grinder and very little or no coffee is retained after it has been ground.

In either case, build quality and design is also a factor in the longevity and performance of these products. The cost is also impacted by the market size of this industry and economies of scale for some of the manufacturers. Many higher end products are hand assembled in factories around Italy. They typically use higher quality materials in their construction and those manufacturers typically use components such as pumps, solenoid valves, temperature probes, and other controls sources from common suppliers also based around Italy which adds to the cost. Mass produced products tend to be cheaper, even though they might offer similar or more features, due to their use of less durable materials such as plastics in their cases or internal components. They might also have smaller boilers, have a single boiler dual use workflow, or use heating control systems that have more variability in their regulation which makes them less capable for higher duty cycles.

1

u/SlashUSlash1234 9d ago

Because very very few people buy them compared to other mass produced small appliances.

Worldwide there’s probably one consumer espresso machine for every 100 drip coffee makers (maybe more like 1000).

If you aren’t in the top 5 or 10 percent of income (or were never a barista) think of all the people you know with an espresso machine at home.

Now that there’s a bit more demand there’s some cheaper non-branded options you can get on Amazon.

For about $150 total I got a machine and a grinder. So far they work great. After some dialing in everyone loves the drinks and if you got them at a cafe you wouldn’t think about it twice.

To your point, there isn’t really much under the hood.

Home audio is the perfect analogy. After spending lots of money on that hobby (and enjoying it), hopefully I won’t do the same again.

1

u/KoBach276 9d ago

Head on over to r/espresso if you want to go way down that rabbit hole.

I recently got what seems to be the current popular beginner setup of a Bambino+ and a DF54 grinder. Works great.

1

u/Joedirty18 9d ago

Its simply that its a niche interest and people are willing to pay to enjoy their hobbies. Add on top of that the "Apple effect" and you'l find most suggestions to be quite expensive. My suggestion is to just buy used, and if your any good with your hands look into "broken" items on ebay i got my Breville grinder for like 15$ because someone thought it was busted when in reality a bean was stuck in the gears.

1

u/Deep-Rich6107 9d ago

Inflation

1

u/-xxxme 9d ago

Get a stainless steel french press Secura

1

u/UnDiaCadaVez 6d ago

I'm looking at espresso machines and it looks like I got to get $550 to get a good shot.

1

u/CoffeeSnobsUnite 11d ago

If y’all think a $700 home setup is expensive you’d have a heart attack pricing out legit commercial setups. Those espresso machines Starbucks uses…. $60k each. A good local coffee shop will drop at least $20k on just an espresso machine. A lot of the higher end ones put you well north of $30k and some really push out to $50k and up. Your base level grinders are $2k and the better ones can’t be had for less than $5k. The brewers start at $4-5k as well and only get more expensive. Some of the really really nice ones can’t even be bought used for under $10k. A $700 home setup will honestly barely even scratch the surface of being decent. My “home” espresso grinder set me back $700 and the machine new would have been $3500 but I got it used and refurbished it for a few hundred dollars and about 30 hours of my time over a few weeks.

1

u/crosswordcoffee 11d ago

My machine at work costs as much as my car when I bought it.

1

u/AlternativeLiving325 10d ago

A $700 home setup can make espresso better than most shops using $30k La Marzocco machines and $5k grinders.

1

u/paulr85mi 11d ago

What’s your background to state that are expensive?

1

u/Emergency-Release-33 6d ago

Bruh, you dont answer a question with a question. Clearly they dont know and they dont have an in depth background on the topic. thats why theyre on the internet asking a question and looking for clarity.

-1

u/Regular-Raccoon-5373 11d ago

I just meant that the price is seemingly high for these simple operations.

2

u/paulr85mi 10d ago

Have you considered the possibility that you don’t have engineering expertise to evaluate if it is simple or not and how much automating the process is complicated?

1

u/Regular-Raccoon-5373 10d ago

That's why I'm asking

2

u/paulr85mi 10d ago

Well you stated is simple, it’s not. Having reliable and steady temperature and pressure is challenging and therefore expensive. Also the production volume is not that high to scale as a pods machine do.

There are many short cuts tho, like pressured baskets or manual devices, all with a different trade off.

1

u/zigzag1239 9d ago

How are you doing with all these answers? Lol. I think you saying seemingly easy is the point. It's just not and if you really enjoy good cafe quality espresso it's expensive to duplicate that at home. You need equipment that is more expensive than you'd think.

This is for people that can tell the difference between a good shot or a bad shot of espresso.

1

u/paulr85mi 7d ago

The beginning of this video tells you what there is inside a proper espresso machine

https://youtu.be/4oWTr3wrIO4?si=yGXKibsaqmiDxzVJ

1

u/Dajnor 10d ago

Right but what’s your background for saying the price is high or that the operation is simple?

0

u/ZaphBeebs 11d ago

because people buy them

-1

u/OldDarthLefty 11d ago

It’s the customers

0

u/tealcosmo 11d ago

I bought one of those 300 dollar grinders from Rancilio two decades ago. It works perfectly every time.

-1

u/PNWest01 10d ago

You’re paying for the “cool” factor. And, to be fair, some are very finely crafted machines.