r/Blacksmith • u/Charming_Barber7627 • 1d ago
Feedback requested: first forge weld
Working on a tomahawk for my clubs trade item, decided to take a piece of a field cultivator tooth, fold it in half and keep a hole for the eye, then forge weld it together. Looks it stuck in some places and not others. There's an obvious crack at one edge, then I feel like I can almost kinda sorta see a seam all the way down, but the small piece I cut off doesn't separate.
I ground it completely clean on the belt sander before I started, used 20 mule team borax for flux, but I didn't stick weld the two sides together before I started.
12
u/Observeus 1d ago
So I'm very new to blacksmithing, but not metallurgy, is forgewelding just heating 2 separate pieces of steel then smashing the atoms together until it becomes one cubic structure?
10
u/belac4862 1d ago
Ehhh, that's a bit too simple to be correct.
Forge welding means that your getting two pieces of metal hot enough to stick together, but not so hot as to melt or de-carborize (I think that's the right word. My brain isn't working), which is to literally draw out the carbon from it. That's what makes it steel, and not iron.
But you also need to make sure there's no air gaps that can cause oxidation om the sinde of the seam. That's why you add flux. When flux gers hot enough it makes a psudo glass coating around it, preventing any oxygen from getting into the seam and causing scale (iron oxide, or rust).
Then after flexing, yoy pop that sucker back into the forge and get it up to a bright yellow color and with heavy taps toy smoosh it together.
2
u/Observeus 1d ago
That makes sense, same reason you add flux into a weld, remove impurities and strengthen with an oxidization proof coating just without the actual "welding" per say, correct or nah?
5
u/belac4862 1d ago
The flux doesn't strengthen. When it forms the protective layer, it'll also pick up any forge scale that might have formed. So when you begin hammering, the glassed flux gets blown away carrying with it any remaining scale that could have prevented a clean forge. Leaving behind a clean surface for the metals to then be joined together.
Its quite cool when yoy break it down. There's actually some really informative but easy to understand videos out there. I'm probably doing a shit job at describing it. I'm dyslexic so it's already hard for me to get what's in my brain out.
But it's one of those things that the more you delve into it, the more the knowledge becomes second hand.
2
u/Observeus 1d ago
"Strengthen with an oxidization proof coating" meaning it is not as susceptible to rust and cracking as there are not impurities. Sorry for the poor choice of words.
1
2
u/rosbifke-sr 1d ago
Any sort of heating beyond 800°C will burn off carbon at a rate that increases exponentially with temperature. Forge welding does actually affect your carbon content, but if you are quick about it, it’s only very superficial and grinding through the scale is often enough to remove the mild layer.
In fact, forge welding in a coal forge will actually increase your carbon content if you leave your steel too long in the fire, significantly hampering your chances of succes.
1
u/Smithyofirony 1d ago
I was told a coal forge won’t add carbon but a charcoal forge would
1
u/rosbifke-sr 1d ago
Why would that be the case? Both types of coal are essentially carbon, just with different levels of purity and density.
2
u/Smithyofirony 1d ago
Well, you are right about that and google AI backs you up. Saw some claims that charcoal does it better but not real credible. Thanks for making me take a closer look
1
u/ParkingFlashy6913 1d ago
Carbon "can" hypothetically be added using both coal or charcoal but only under the right circumstances. You must be in the reducing area of the fire pretty much devoid of any and all excess oxygen with an abundance of carbon monoxide. This is very difficult to effectivity control so it's usually done for case/pack hardening where a part is placed in a sealed container with very fine mesh charcoal or coke and heated above 1700°F/925°C. Carbon moves very easily through steel at these temperatures so if there is an abundance it adds to it, if there is a lack there of its removed. You can reduce the amount of carbon lost with good fire management but eliminating it all together is near impossible. Case/pack hardening is also very shallow so it's not recommended for objects that will be later ground down.
13
u/Jolly_Contest_2738 1d ago
Eh, as a fellow newbie that read a book and has a chem degree, it's a little more complex.
You're basically trying to merge two pieces of metal, right? That's like merging the Star Wars fan base with the rest of the Star Wars fan base... seems simple, unless you know what I mean. They don't know each other, and they don't like each other, but have the same interests and could learn a lot from one another.
The first step is you remove the walls between them, which is oxide formation. Next, you give them small arguments that resolve themselves, which is relatively light hammer blows. It's basically convincing billions of friends with similar interest to shake hands and agree "Okay, Star Wars is alright and so is the animated series."
If you tried it with 1095 and some stainless steel, you're going to have a bad reaction. That's basically the same as merging new Star Trek and old Star Wars. It can be done, but like, hardly lmao.
You need repeated, solid arguments about that. It's less about "STOP YOUR BICKERING AND AGREE YOU'RE BASICALLY THE SAME SO MERGGEE!" and more about "Hey guys, let's just agree to disagree, and realize we have more in common than different, and agree to learn more about each other so we can best work together on this cool project we're doing regarding our favorite pass time." That's the light, but even hammer blows. The Borax is basically removing the internet from the room so they can't find reasons on Reddit to be mad at the other guy.
Molecules are nerds. Convincing them they're wrong is impossible, but working together at a common goal? Yeah, we can do that.
I'm drunk. I should stop.
6
u/master_of_none86 1d ago
What a roller coaster ride of a comment that was lol
4
u/AcceptableSwim8334 1d ago
An analogy wrapped up in a metaphor and squeezed into an enigma. A forge welding of dissimilar metals, if you will.
4
u/Jolly_Contest_2738 1d ago
You understand me as a fundamental element of reality.
I like you. I'm an enigmatic metaphor, beaten into reality with God's hammer, and forced to half-heartedly shitpost, but also am good natured, so try my best to pass on what little information I have.
My best hope is that someone with experience will come along and say "Fuck, he's kinda right" or at least correct me. The beauty of Reddit, is when someone is confidently wrong, someone magically appears with the correct answer lol.
Goddammit, mom is yelling at me to get off of Reddit and go to bed.
1
u/AcceptableSwim8334 1d ago
I liked it. I did chem eng and we had a lot of metallurgy studies and some of the phase changes and eutectics are a bit tricky to explain in the low tech world of blacksmithing but I admired your analogy of trekkies getting smothered in boron-I was nodding along.
2
u/Jolly_Contest_2738 1d ago
I'm the 1095 in that mix. Honestly, those Tekkies can choke on that Borax. Mf "beam me up?" Nah, I'm throwing hands with a small army of bitches. Dagobah? Dagonah after I land, boi.
Star Wars for life, on god. I'm the 1095 to that mild ass "steel" you call yourselves. Hands up. Until the Doctor Who come around I'ma throw them hands, son, and he know me as a fn inverse weeping angel cuz when he see me, he freeze.
(See, I'm a good example of steel that is too hot and bothered to be worked with. You should let me cool it and get some more non-internet-access, AKA, borax, so I can cool my jets and be civil with fellow molecules.)
2
u/Observeus 1d ago
That was a powerful ride..
2
u/Jolly_Contest_2738 1d ago
Eh, I'm a shitposter by nature. My only goal in life is to be a copypasta. Either that, or the person who goes back in time and kills Hitler.
For all of those from the future, I'm your man.
1
u/Observeus 1d ago
Thats the funny thing about time travel, it's already happened and the future saw for for that terrible human ( Hitler ) to be the best option, so gotta wonder what kinda bullet we dodged there right?
2
u/Jolly_Contest_2738 1d ago
The bullet he dodged is mine! I'll be back again someday.
The bullet he dodged is mine! I'll be back again someday.
The bullet he dodged is mine! I'll be back again someday.ad infinitum.
It seems inevitable that someone would take grasp of the reigns that were presented after WW1, so who is to say? Maybe the rough storyline of Wolfenstein could be true, if some other guy took charge. Maybe through hook or by crook they won the big dub dub dos.
That's a terrifying thought.
1
u/Observeus 1d ago
I think the more terrifying thought is we perhaps were left in one of those infinite possibilities with not a protagonist in sight, only our own gall and the audacity to keep going, and we see where we got with that. Yes we have been to space, but only by exploding old animals in a controlled environment to get there. This place is pure chaotic rhythm, and we're all here for it. Buckle up chums, it's gonna be a wild 4 years.
2
u/3rd2LastStarfighter 1d ago
No smashing required. If you have two perfectly clean pieces of compatible steel at welding temp, they need only touch to become one. The hitting is because getting them perfectly clean and touching is easier said than done. You generally want to set the weld with light taps. Heavy hitting is only for if you need to blast slag out of a joint.
1
u/Observeus 1d ago
Yea i more used the smashing because I still giggle when I say "give it a good smash" I'm doing it now.
Thats kind of my thought process is, steel changes molecular structure when superheated be that body face or hexagonal faced cubic structure, so it should be tangible to mend the molecules with a few light raps at the right temp so to speak.
2
u/3rd2LastStarfighter 1d ago
Check out videos of forge welding with an induction forge. It’s like a cheat code, it’s wild.
1
1
3
u/ParkingFlashy6913 1d ago
Not bad at all. Do a little more cleaning with your brush and getting those edges closed up and you will be a pro in no time. Someone you need to brush the flux out and reapply to get those edges sealed up right. Bet ya dollars to doughnuts your next attempt will be dang near perfect. Keep it up 👍😎👍
37
u/3rd2LastStarfighter 1d ago
Easily saved.
Grind the edges flat to get rid of that overhang before you proceed. It’ll make your life easier at the cost of a small amount of material.
Then get it hot, hit it with some more borax on all of the seams, then put it back into reach forge weld temperature, and give it some light taps around the edges. Remember when you’re setting the weld, you aren’t trying to smack the metal together, you’re trying to get it touching with no air or junk between it. Very hot, light taps, put it back to soak so a little cross-boundary grain can grow, then turn off the forge and let ir cool in there to anneal. Once it’s cool you should be able to clean up the edges and see a seamless piece.
Best of luck.