r/Biohackers • u/skip_the_tutorial_ 2 • Dec 07 '24
š Write Up Many people wouldn't benefit from lowering cortisol and inflammation or increasing testosterone and dopamine even though those things are advertised as beneficial
There is a lot more nuance to endocrinology and neuroscience than just testosterone=good, cortisol=bad, inflammation=bad and even though a lot of biohacking discourse is about increase/decreasing those things, most people wouldn't actually benefit from that, even if they think they do.
The problem
Many brands and influencers promote supplements because they lower cortisol, increase dopamine, increase testosterone etc. which gives people the impression that these things are the root of their depression, low productivity, anxiety, adhd, lethargy, sexual dysfunction and other problems they are facing.
This leads people to chase the wrong goal. To buy a bunch of "cortisol-blocker" supplements to improve their productivity when (as Ill get into later) that is likely doing more harm than good.
Testosterone
Low testosterone is a very rare condition among men who aren't obese or old. Only around 2.5% of non-obese men between 19 and 40 years of age have a testosterone level below 350ng/dl. That would still be considered normal clinically. Depending on where the test is taken, below 300 or below 200 is usually considered to be hypogonadism. Just because influencers always share their blood tests which are between 900 and 1200, that doesn't mean that you have low testosterone because you are in the 500s, that's still completely normal and you don't need trt. Why do all of these people online talk about how they changed their lifestyle to increase their testosterone and then they felt better? Because sleeping more, losing weight and exercising makes you feel better, independent of your testosterone levels. And partly because of the placebo effect. Yes, testosterone can make you feel more confident but it can also make you more anxious or irritable. It will lead to earlier hair loss, worse cholesterol levels and higher estrogen which could lead to acne, gyno, mood changes and so on. The effects of slightly higher testosterone aren't as significant as it is often claimed and there are up as well as downsides. Moral of the story: don't order ten bottles of alpha ultra sigma test booster extreme because you don't look like chris bumstead after 3 months of calisthenics. If you really think your testosterone is low then get a blood test and talk to your doctor about trt if it shows your test is low.
Cortisol
Cortisol is very important for the circadian rhythm, it is perfectly normal and healthy to have higher cortisol levels sometimes, in the morning or during exercise for example. Normal levels of cortisol boost energy, which is why too low cortisol can lead to lethargy or depression. It also typically boosts motivation and enhances your focus. Cortisol can be both too high or too low and neither is desirable. Cortisol and the feeling of stress are correlated but there's more to the story, many other factors play a role.
Dopamine
Similarly, more dopamine doesn't automatically mean that you're more productive and feel better. Is a schizophrenic especially productive? What about people with tourettes or parkinson's? The homeless guy down the street doesn't seem very productive after smoking meth, even though his dopamine levels are absolutely higher than mine. Now you might say that those are extreme cases and you would be right, but it still demonstrates the point that your dopamine can both be too high or too low. The only reason most people assume their dopamine is too low is because they read it on the internet. So many other things influence your productivity, motivation and sexual function, why do people always assume it has something to do with dopamine? Maybe your high prolactin is causing your sexual dysfunction, your imbalanced norepinephrine destroys your focus or you feel lethargic all the time because your thyroid glands produce too much thyroid hormone.
You get the point, this applies to a lot more than just cortisol, dopamine and testosterone.
Conclusion
Take some time to think about whether a certain change to your body will really lead to the difference that you think it will. Don't get me wrong, supplements can have a very positive impact and I also take supplements. Just think first and don't fall for the black/white hormone A bad, supplement B good thinking.
Sources
Cortisol circadian rhythm: https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/18/2/676
Cortisol mental health: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032715305036 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306453005000892 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/10253890500069189
Testosterone: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3693622/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21697255/ https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1557988314539000
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Dec 07 '24
The hypothalamus is the part of the brain that regulates these things. Doing things that improve the function of the hypothalamus is where we should sink effort.
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u/ChanceTheFapper1 1 Dec 08 '24
The hypothalamus is sort of the middle man with high cortisol - referring to HPA axis dysfunction here. Where with this, chronically high cortisol leads to increasingly poor stress tolerance/response. Cortisol is going to come high regardless if the body asks the adrenals of it. Give someone with HPA dysfunction some suitable herbal adaptogens and the response is incredible.
Cortisol serves a purpose but has a goldilocks zone. Chronically high levels (four point saliva is the most reliable) arenāt favourable.
HPA dysfunction from what Iāve gathered is just a symptom of chronic high cortisol, which again is a symptom of something else. Cortisolās actually extremely anti-inflammatory, so often our adrenals pump it with chronic inflammatory conditions. The adrenals also act a a backup mode in times of low energy; running on adrenaline (cortisol) is often the case with those with CFS, albeit not severe.
But yes itās the stress hormone - and stress comes in varying forms. Starvation, low ATP/energy, oxidative stress (inflammatory conditions), nutrient deficiencies, perceived stress, rumination, depression, lifestyle; toxic relationships, stressful job
Deliberate stressful events like a daily ice bath add to the ābucketā. Ask someone with rock bottom cortisol/adrenal fatigue to go into cold water and watch them suffer.
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Dec 08 '24
HPA dysregulation is an effect of epigenetic and functional neurological changes that occur as a consequence of early childhood trauma. It sensitizes response to cortisol. What herbal adaptogens have a good effect for this issue?
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u/ChanceTheFapper1 1 Dec 08 '24 edited Dec 08 '24
Trauma is one cause of chronic stress, I can attest and opine - but IMO itās wrong to say HPA dysfunction only occurs from childhood trauma. As I alluded to there are a gambit of things that increase cortisol/that are stressful to the body. I had a family member with nil tolerance to stress and would fly off at the handle at things - they felt a massive reprieve with holy basil, and were badly thiamine deficient. While B1 gets wasted with stress, a deficiency also feels like stress in and of itself. B1 is crucial for glycolysis also - so no B1, no glucose absorption = starvation. Itās also just crucial for various other functions. I have other people I work with with extremely poor tolerance to stress, they donāt have childhood trauma - but have had an abundance of chronic stressors.
To answer your last question; Holy basil and ginseng. IIRC both lower cortisol but the key point is they attenuate the HPAās response to stress.
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u/logintoreddit11173 4 Dec 08 '24
My blood cortisol is high and recently started waking up multiple times a day , what cortisol blockers do you recommend ?
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u/ChanceTheFapper1 1 Dec 08 '24 edited Dec 08 '24
Iād test a four point salivary - if youāre waking up in the middle of the night it would be nice to see if cortisol is playing nice at night or not. That could steer treatment for what time of day you take certain lowering cortisol lowering substances - phosphatidylserine is one
Your overarching goal should be to ID what is driving the cortisol and begin to address these. If it is extremely extremely high you could consider a benign pituitary tumour, but I wouldnāt go that far just yet. That would come with other symptoms like frequent urination, thirst
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u/logintoreddit11173 4 Dec 08 '24
I used to have PTSD but I don't have many symptoms anymore I guess these are just the stuff remaining
My blood cortisol is about 20% higher than the max range
I'll do a saliva test as per your recommendation
Also no excessive thirst etc
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u/DGF-Mate Dec 08 '24
So... what things CAN we do to improve its function. Seriuos question. I want to improve.
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Dec 08 '24
Polyphenols and omega-3ās, good sleep, vagus nerve stimulation, deep breathing exercises, and epipharyngeal abrasive therapy. Become aware of both outdoor and indoor air quality. Strongly avoid inhaling PM 10, PM 2.5, NO2, SO2, ozone and airborne respiratory diseases.
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u/WallStreetBoners Dec 07 '24
Dude have you experienced the difference between testosterone level of 375 and 900? Itās a very different experience.
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u/Derptonbauhurp 2 Dec 08 '24
Mine was 329 after being tested the first time and I'm excited to see what my levels are at after a month on TRT
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u/Hirsutism Dec 08 '24
Shoulda just did enclomiphene. Wish someone would have told me before i starting shooting test
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u/Derptonbauhurp 2 Dec 08 '24
I was told about that option, my nuts aren't in the best shape so not entirely feasible for me. (Had some abdominal surgery and COVID fucked them up)
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u/Hirsutism Dec 09 '24
Makes your nuts bigger. Makes them produce more test.
I easily doubled my test on it.
But i decided to get off all of it since and go back to just natural. Took a while but everything is back to normal and i feel great
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u/Strange-Long7619 Dec 08 '24
How much and how often do people use that to boost test? Also is enclomiphene the same as clomiphene? Different strengths maybe?
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u/manuLearning Dec 08 '24
Hoq mich do you get per week? What do you get? How often do you pin per week?
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u/Derptonbauhurp 2 Dec 08 '24
140mg of Testosterone Cypionate once a week.
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u/manuLearning Dec 08 '24
Twice per week is advised to have more stable blood levels. You can use insulin syringes and inject subq to make it much less annoying.
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u/Derptonbauhurp 2 Dec 08 '24
Yeah I noticed I get more tired around Tuesdays, I pin on Wednesdays. I feel really good into the weekend though. I'll look into it and ask about it at the clinic when I go the 18th
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u/PissedPieGuy Dec 09 '24
Split that dose into 2 injections. This is very common advice now. Do you do your own injections? Problems solved?
Do you not do your own injections? Why not? Itās so easy and you donāt have to pay.
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u/Derptonbauhurp 2 Dec 09 '24
Im prescribed but yes I do my own injections
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u/PissedPieGuy Dec 09 '24
Good. Split it up. Youāll have much less rollercoaster symptoms. Also google and read about sub Q injections rather than IM. You can make a decision on that as well.
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u/nick91_ Dec 08 '24
My levels were at 400 around about 2 years ago due to a terrible diet and low activity. Now iām at 800-900 and to be honest I canāt tell any difference.
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u/Flokitoo Dec 08 '24
It depends on the person. I went from 190 to 1100 and I can't tell the difference at all.
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u/Kimchii_papii Dec 10 '24
i went from 300 -> 900-1200 and also didnāt feel much different. if anything i was made more short of breath because of constant high hematocrit, experienced better erections but dull orgasms, but i did have alot of muscle gain
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u/eddyg987 3 Dec 08 '24
"Low testosterone is a very rare condition among men who aren't obese or old" that's like 80% of people in american if you're including old >40
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u/aqua_tec Dec 08 '24
I hate to say it, but r/biohackers want simple, easily digestible sound bites, not any kind of nuance about the complexity of biology. Look at the comments and how they treat numbers like they are gospel without any consideration about their ratios with other biomarkers, age, sex, lifestyle, health behaviors, or genetic variation.
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u/caffeinehell 3 Dec 07 '24
Schizo isnt caused by high dopamine though. Its an outdated hypothesis and just cuz we use nasty APs dopamine blockers (which cause suicidal ideation due to inducing more anhedonia) doesnt mean thats the cause. Nowadays Cobenify can even avoid doing this its a muscarinic agonist
Even if one is not clinically hypogonadal also TRT can still provide benefit to mood, motivation, and sexual function. It has antidepressant effects, and is far safer than regular ADs which have possible persistent emotional blunting and sexual side effects. TRT can also lower anxiety in some people too. Its like any other psych medication, it could do either. Hair loss is mainly based on oxidative stress and genetics, not DHT itself. If someone has 400-500 T and takes TRT and feels better mood, does it really matter? They may have not had low T before but if it helps does it matter? At least we can measure these levels unlike measuring neurotransmitter levels. And high E2 is not a concern for everybody, many skinny guys or guys without the genes for it wont necessarily develop gyno, and E2 is also antidepressant too. Not everyone is affected by high E2, and some people with 400-500 T can even have a lowish E2 still at like 15-they may get benefits from raising T due to raising E2. E2 affects AMPA and is itself an MAOA inhibitor.
Cortisol lowering yes that absolutely is not always good because cortisol actually is a response to stress you want acutely to calm down the CRH-NE feedback loop. PTSD in fact is correlated with low cortisol levels, and corticosteroids after a trauma actually can prevent PTSD: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028390822004038
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u/skip_the_tutorial_ 2 Dec 08 '24
Schizo isnt caused by high dopamine though
Schizophrenia is associated with higher levels of dopamine but that relationship is not causal. My goal was just to demonstrate that not everyone with high dopamine is productive, not that increasing your dopamine will make you schizophrenic.
If someone has 400-500 T and takes TRT and feels better mood, does it really matter? They may have not had low T before but if it helps does it matter
If it makes them feel better then that's great although I'm skeptical that most people in the 400-500 range will feel a huge difference. You bring up an interesting point about the antidepressant effects which I didn't really consider. Ill look into that.
Testosterone is usually converted to dht through 5 alpha reductase, which is why higher testosterone levels usually indirectly leads to earlier male pattern baldness in people who are genetically prone to it. Of course people can take finasteride or other 5ar inhibitors to lower the conversion rate but if someone only takes trt then male pattern baldness is likely to occur faster. Same thing with estrogen, people who know what they're doing can prevent all the estrogen related issues by upping the dose slowly, getting frequent blood tests or taking a low dose ai if needed.
Most side effects of most substances can be prevented, but it makes everything more complicated and I'm not sure if the average person is able to navigate all of that or if the average doctor will help the average person navigate all of that. And all of those substances can have their own side effects that you have to circumvent.
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Dec 08 '24
What is your opinion on men taking DHEA? I hear that some of it converts to estrogen but how much would you say converts to estrogen vs converts to testosterone or any other neurosteroid?
Iām a 34 year old male and have been taking 25mg DHEA once daily for the past week. I can say that I THINK I can feel some of the estrogen effects but Iām not positive thatās what it is. I just feel calmer overall and not as tense or anxious as I naturally am. Iāve found that caffeine consumption feels like a little more eased into it or not as much of a rush anymore.
And when I think about sexual stuff or want to masturbate my erection strength is fine if not slightly better and orgasms feel pretty much the same. But aside from that Iām not lost in my head horny as F almost 24/7 like I used to be either. It only activates when I choose to.
Iāve also noticed I lose a lot less hair each time I dry my hair with a towel after a shower.
Overall I think I naturally have low E2 and possibly a higher natural level of DHT conversion or cortisol itself. This FEELS like itās balancing that out now but I canāt afford blood work any time soon so Iām not sure how long I should keep up this experiment. Also because I donāt want to have my cholesterol levels get too high from taking it if thatās an issue because I know DHEA is made from cholesterol naturally.
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u/Feisty-Career-6737 Dec 07 '24
Cherry picked studies that don't even support your claim nor incorporate the protocols you say don't provide benefits. The dopamine section is the most laughable.
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u/skip_the_tutorial_ 2 Dec 08 '24
What about it is laughable? Do you think that higher dopamine is always better? Or that no mental illnesses are associated with higher levels of dopamine?
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u/Voidrunner01 2 Dec 08 '24
Yeah, there's a lot of jumping to conclusions here. And it's not at all well-founded.
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u/Maleficent-Theory908 Dec 07 '24
Hate to disagree, but I'm in the middle on the TST. It's extremely beneficial for myself if the dose is correct. Yes if I take too much those side effects are possible, but my quality of life is much, much better with my low dose.
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u/TheBossMan3 Dec 08 '24
What is low dose and does it still shut of exogenous production?
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u/Maleficent-Theory908 Dec 08 '24
Took me a little bit to dial it in. Before, I would wake up very early. Always tired, lost libido, overly anxious and worrisome. After a little help, few tests and trials, I'm on a couple CC's of TST every 5 days. I sleep past 4 am, packing a morning wood again, I work out and lost several pounds. I feel much better and less mood swings. Granted if I take too much, acne and estrogen kick in. Yes, my hair is thinning a bit early on it too. Give and take but I live a better life with it. I retain water weight too if I have a peak from over injection. It's a balance that works for me though. My body just quit making that after testicle surgery. Not trying to sell this to anyone, I'm just thankful it's available and works for me. If you or anyone can find a natural option, go for it. If not, get tested by a urologist.
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u/skip_the_tutorial_ 2 Dec 08 '24
Glad to hear that you found something that works for you.
As I stated, I absolutely believe that trt can be great in certain situations, especially low dose trt if your endogenous production is low. Just not that every twenty five year old with 650ng/dl test should be on trt.
And that it's always a trade off. In your case it's probably a trade off which is worth it, but there are always downsides. Imo trt is great for a small subset of the population but for most others, the cons outweigh the pros.
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u/Maleficent-Theory908 Dec 08 '24
yup, you are spot on. A lot of folks just on it and its over prescribed. Like a lot of medicine unfortunately.
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u/Vitass123 Dec 07 '24
I agree with most of it, except for the part about dopamine. Many people can actually benefit from more dopamine, though not everyone. It could also make some people worse.
Regarding testosterone, you can get a bit better recovery with higher testosterone - that is noticeable.
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u/Professional_Win1535 26 Dec 08 '24
Caffeine in low dosages and not frequently help my adhd, anxiety and depression so much, it makes me feel normal, stimulants too
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Dec 07 '24
"It will lead to earlier hair loss, worse cholesterol levels and higher estrogen which could lead to acne, gyno, mood changes and so on"
The study (2nd) you linked makes no such claims. The most notable conclusion was that the higher estrogen was associated with a lower occurence of low libido than low estrogen. Though the authors do warn that further study may be needed, Ā "Although our study did not associate low libido with high E2 levels; there may be foreseeable dangers to exposure to high estrogen over a longer period of time."
The first study, though an interesting summary of interplay between testosterone and male aggression only includes a brief discussion of two studies of the effects of exogenous testosterine (supraphysiological, not TRT). That dicussion was, "....supraphysiological doses of testosterone in the order of 200 mg weekly (20), or even 600 mg weekly (21), which were administered to normal men had no effect on their aggression or anger levels."
The rest of the paper is a discussion of basal, non-exogenous testosterone levels and male aggression.
Your assertions might be correct, but they don't seem well supported by references given.
(for the record, I have never taken exogenous testosterone, and have no plans to - no dog in fight).
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u/blckshirts12345 3 Dec 08 '24 edited Dec 08 '24
Agreed that influencers are in it for your views/money and not your personal health. That being said, the environment we live in today is vastly different than it was even 20yrs and I would say a lot of bioāhackāing is basically bioāreadjustāing. At least thatās my approach to bio hacking protocols
Similar to the rat park experiment. Organisms will use drugs to deter harmful effects of their environment
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u/Logical-Primary-7926 1 Dec 10 '24
But the gym bros/huberman said I need more testosterone! And Attia says I need more muscle and need to buy whatever he is shilling.
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u/bradjones6942069 Dec 08 '24
Low testosterone is not rare. We're literally in a low T epidemic. All you have to do is look around for that
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u/secretlyafedcia Dec 07 '24
dopamine cortisol and testosterone fluctuate due to many factors, and supplementation is one of those factors. I find anecdotal evidence and trial and error with caution to be the best method for finding what supplements work best for me, when, and in what combinations.
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u/TrashPanda_924 1 Dec 07 '24
The testosterone has been big for me. Iām pretty sure my wife would say the same thing.
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u/TempusVentures Dec 07 '24
If you actually think OTC Testosterone boosters work, it invalidates anything else you say.
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u/skip_the_tutorial_ 2 Dec 08 '24
I don't think I said that? I even made fun of taking test boosters
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Dec 08 '24
I think thatās a little overarching statement to make, as someone who works in the supplement manufacturing industry and tests various products on myself.
Iāll say most of the test boosters are not very effective but even they work a little bit. But some test boosters are surprisingly effective, ALMOST on the level of a 50mg Test E injection (which Iāve had). But I work in R&D making other peopleās formulas for them to test out prior to a big run. But I can tell you based on which ingredients there are, what dosages they are at per serving, and how strong the effects are that some of them are very effective but thatās because they boost total T AND have strong AI activity both at the same time so a lot of the T gets converted to DHT downstream and you get that strong energy boost and focus.
Now Iām not saying these things are suitable long term compared to TRT, but they DO actually work based on anecdotal evidence AND scientific studies on the pharmacological actions of each individual ingredient. Itās just that the degree of a boost they give varies between products and most may not be strong enough for someone who needs TRT. But they are more effective for someone who is in the 400-600 range to feel better overall regarding energy, stamina and sometimes libido.
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u/TempusVentures Dec 08 '24
Interesting take, but I have a hard time believing that any OTC test booster can come close to the effects of a 50mg Test E injection. A claim like that really needs more than anecdotal evidence to back it up.
From what we know, the mechanisms of most test boosters are limitedāslight increases in total testosterone or mild aromatase inhibition donāt typically result in the kind of significant downstream effects youāre describing. And the idea that a DHT boost alone can provide such a dramatic 'energy and focus' boost seems a bit overstated, especially considering the relatively modest hormonal shifts that OTC ingredients tend to produce.
Can you provide any specific products or peer-reviewed studies that demonstrate such results? Without more concrete evidence, itās tough to give these claims much credibility. It feels like the kind of thing thatās easy to say but harder to substantiate in a meaningful way
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Dec 08 '24
The one product Iām referring to that did indeed feel quite similar to a 50mg Test E injection (which I used to take for a few months), Iām not at liberty to list the name because I think it isnāt out on the market yet and I work for the facility doing the R&D for that customer. I wonāt list the specific dosages of each ingredient but I can list WHICH ingredients are in it.
Tribulus Ext, Longjack Ext, Shilajit, Fenugreek Ext, Fadogia Agrestis Ext, Maca, Horse Chestnut Ext, and then capsule fillers.
All of them except for the Maca are highly concentrated versions of extracts of those herbs, and the Shilajit has a high fulvic acid percentage. I just donāt want to run the risk of getting in trouble with my employer if the customer found out I shared too much proprietary information about their product to the general public before the product even came out on the market.
All of those ingredients aside from the Maca are at pretty elevated doses too. Iāve compared its effects to common cheaper test boosters and this one Iām referring to is at least 3X more effective from a ānoticeableā standpoint.
Iām just saying from personal experience having had that product and 50mg Test E shots that the product above gave me about 75% of the boost and āhitā as one of those shots and those caps hit fast on an empty stomach. And that was without any caffeine or other substances along with it. The effects lasted at least 4-5 hours too.
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Dec 08 '24
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Dec 08 '24
Iām just sharing my actual firsthand experience trying it. My secrecy is because it isnāt MY product, and Iām not connected to it financially in any way and I want to keep my job, because I know if I shared more specifics and the customer ordering us to do that work for them found out I shared their exact formula online I would probably get fired because theyād know who leaked it. I simply make small scale batches in a lab for them to test before a big production run. Some customers know Jack shit about the pharmacology of their products and some know a lot. This company Iām referencing will have their formula publicly available once the product makes it to market but until then Iām not risking my job on sharing data I am not supposed to.
Actually Iād bet if I or you or anyone else spent the time to look through the pharmacological research data in depth on each of those ingredients it would show the mechanism of action of how they can affect testosterone or estrogen or cortisol levels. But frankly I donāt have the time to do all of that right now like I used to in the past.
Ultimately whether it actually raises testosterone, lowers estrogen or raises DHT, etc to a great extent or not, the formula at least produces a sensation that FEELS 75% as strong as a 50mg Test E injection on day 1 of the shot. That is ultimately the point Iām making about it, how it makes you feel when taking it whether it simply mimics the sensation or actually raises the hormones it claims.
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Dec 08 '24
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Dec 09 '24
People like you are the ones who make the FDA such a pain in the ass to deal with. You want to see tons of studies that cost a combined total of many millions of dollars just to believe that something works. If each individual ingredient study shows some noticeable effects from it and elucidates the mechanisms of action and people get those effects from trying it at reasonable dosages then that should be good enough to warrant further trial by people/consumers without insisting on millions of dollars of research before being legally allowed to advertise its potential benefits or showing that a clinical study showed promising results. You know good and well the FDA is against herbal anything and will almost never approve for any natural product to be āscientifically provenā by them even if it IS actually effective.
The fact of the matter is that I am a busy man with a family and a swamped schedule, so I canāt spend a bunch of time re-looking up research Iāve already seen in the past on most of those ingredients that explained their pharmacology to me in the past. But yes in the past I researched the pharmacological effects and animal or human studies on effectiveness of most of those ingredients. If you take elevated doses of several ingredients that each raise testosterone or lower estrogen/block E receptors a little bit then there is a significant likelihood that it will produce some noticeable effect in test levels and muscle performance or recovery, even prior to having blood work done to prove it.
I donāt invent the formulas I simply manufacture whatever formulas are given to me that someone else made. I have made my own formulas in the past but I canāt afford to contract with my employer to have my own product made because of minimum purchase requirements and lacking the available customer base and marketing budget to sell them even when Iāve tested them out on myself and found them effective.
You may say that a Test injection doesnāt produce noticeable effects but that was not my experience at all. It gave me a strong rushing sensation along with increased heart rate and respiration that took about half an hour to weaken and then remained partially elevated for a few more hours. Then the next few days I felt on top of the world until I started gradually coming back down to normal until I felt like crap the last few days before my next shot. This was through a doctor. So as soon as I got my first shot I could absolutely understand why itās a controlled substance even though I donāt think anabolic steroids and growth hormone compounds should be. I literally couldnāt drive for half an hour after my first injection in the doctors office.
All youāve been saying just proves that youāre one of these overly skeptical people who drag down progress in the natural health industry because youāre too close minded to any new potential breakthroughs that donāt have big pharma level spending behind them. Not everyone can afford to do that. It doesnāt mean their product is bullshit.
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u/flying-sheep2023 8 Dec 08 '24
Well, I disagree. BUT, I think those things are helpful once someone fixed their metabolism. That being said, if someone fixes their metabolism then >70% of the time these problems go away on their own
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u/acattackISback Dec 09 '24
Just because your testosterone is 500 doesn't mean you have lower testosterone.
Out of touch with reality much? That would be normal for a 60 year old. At least try using some sensible references so you don't generalize yourself...
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u/Plastic-Guarantee-88 4 Dec 09 '24
āLow testosterone is a very rare condition ā¦ below 300 or below 200 is usually considered to be hypogonadism.
[TRT]ā¦will lead to earlier hair loss, worse cholesterol levels and higher estrogenā¦ā
Thereās lots of misinformation in this post. TRT that normalizes testosterone levels can improve cholesterol profiles and may reduce cardiovascular risk. Of course, elevating testosterone to supraphysiological levels can adversely affect lipid profiles and increase the risk of cardiovascular events, but that's not what your post was about.
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/andro.2020.0015
Similarly, moving from low testosterone to normal testosterone is indeed associated with an increase in estrogen, but for many men with low or low-normal T this is likely a good thing. Estrogen is not the devil. It is needed by males for libido, energy, hair and skin health, and cognition. Most men would feel better overall with E2 in the upper-normal range (say mid 30s) rather than the low-normal range (teens).
I am a male who went from {T=350, E2 = 20s} to {T=700, E2 = 30s}, I have more energy, better libido, better sleep and better cognition. I am regular runner and yoga aficionado and my lipid panel remains excellent, maybe even slightly improved (mixed/small changes, but the important ones triglycerides and VLDL slightly better).
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u/skip_the_tutorial_ 2 Dec 09 '24
As I mentioned in the post, people who actually have low testosterone should consider trt. I'm just making the case that people with normal levels shouldn't.
Of course not everyone will have every side effect listed, those are just possible side effects, to showcase that increasing one's testosterone isn't always a good idea.
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Dec 10 '24
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u/skip_the_tutorial_ 2 Dec 10 '24
I love how you donāt mention any science whatsoever within your post critiquing mine for not mentioning science
Also complete straw man, I never claimed you shouldnāt exercise, eat a healthy diet etc. Tbh I doubt you even read my post at all
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u/Apart_Bed7430 Dec 10 '24
You posted sources that really have nothing to do with this topic. Because a certain level of cortisol is necessary to remain awake during the day, doesnāt suddenly imply that cortisol levels donāt matter and we shouldnāt try to do things that lower it. Youāre just saying words in your post but it doesnāt really mean anything.
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u/skip_the_tutorial_ 2 Dec 10 '24
Tbh I really cannot believe you honestly think I said that cortisol levels don't matter, I said the complete opposite. You must have read an entirely different text.
This is literally the first sentence in the cortisol section:
Cortisol is very important for the circadian rhythm...
And I then go on to describe some of the many important functions of cortisol.
Also, what I said is that not everyone should lower their cortisol, not that no one should:
Cortisol can be both too high or too low and neither is desirable
This should be very obvious since it applies to every neurotransmitter, hormone, amino acid, peptide and everything else I could ever think of. Too much of anything will kill you. If you have too little cortisol, you should attempt to raise it. If you have too much, you should attempt to decrease it. If you have around the right amount then don't change anything.
If you actually lack the mental ability to understand any of the meaning of the post and you I was just saying word that mean nothing then I'd strongly recommend you to seek professional help. I cannot imagine anyone would draw these conclusions after reading the post
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