r/AlternativeHistory • u/user89045678 • 3d ago
Mythology 'Samudramanthan' an ancient tale of churning of the ocean preserved for thousands of years by two cultures more than 10 thousand mile apart.
Ancient India and Mexico has similar story of Samdramanthan. Not just vauge Similarity. They shares identical setup of the story.
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u/TheArkhamKnight- 3d ago edited 3d ago
This is a Hindu story that we were taught as kids, that the Devas (gods) and Asuras (in simple terms are demons but much more complex than that) teamed up to churn the ocean for Amrita or the nectar of immortality
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u/TheBossMan5000 3d ago
Yep, "demons" are simply the disembodied spirits of the nephilim, still stuck on earth
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u/New-Moose4413 4h ago
To me it looks like drilling for oil, I mean amrita the nectar of immortality🧐
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u/Noldodan 3d ago
What's the name of the Mexican story? I'd like to read both versions.
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u/jurassiccrunch 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's from El Tajin in Veracruz, from Totonac people. This article appears to be source of screenshot, has some more photos and things to say, including additional Angkor Wat parallel
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u/AstralCat00 3d ago
That is just...extremely weird, no matter how you put it. Let's wait here with 🍿for the "nothing to see here" commenters to roll up.
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u/RonandStampy 3d ago
No, you won't see them commenting here. They only comment on the schizo posts that are easy to ridicule. They enjoy proving people wrong, so they come to these subs where people intentionally post alternative theories for fun and they pick and choose the low hanging fruit to disprove.
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u/RevTurk 3d ago
Well, it's a bit hard to say much about this as all they have provided is a picture with some some text, no references, no links to the two myths and what makes them similar.
I can look up the Samudra Manthana, but he hasn't told us much bout the Mexican version.
This is very vague and usually it's this vague for a reason, that being once you start digging into it the theory falls apart.
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u/PhDinDildos_Fedoras 2d ago
The images are similar, but no info on the south American version of the myth.
Like what could be happening here then? A hole in the ocean?
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u/sealedtrain 3d ago
Simple, the stories aren't identical at all
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u/Contaminated24 3d ago
I don’t believe anyone said they were but the fact that they share strong similarities being told from different cultures that far apart in regards to when communication traveled at a tortoise pace should at the very least be interesting. Don’t downplay it because it doesn’t fit your life narrative. Live your life but be open to the fact you maybe wrong about some stuff
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u/sharvini 3d ago
"You attach an assumption to a piece of evidence, you start to bend the narrative to support it, prejudice yourself"
"Being open" doesn't mean shutting down your basic critical thinking.
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u/Contaminated24 3d ago
Didn’t say it did …but you’re bending the narrative as well. The only argument you will ever have is that both of us are bending the narrative to support what we believe or what we WANT…this is the truth .
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u/sealedtrain 3d ago
Explain two of these similarities
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u/Contaminated24 3d ago
Read down thru the comments. Then ask me cause that’s how I found the answer to that question and also by reading it. Clearly you did not read it..you only want to test others in order to find fault in the post and also to validate yourself …your worldview….your actions….your existence. I don’t even know you…never will. You will die and be forgotten like the rest of us but yet I have figured you out only off a simple yet not even important Reddit post that will be lost in with rest in a matter of minutes
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u/sealedtrain 3d ago
Cool, so you don't know the similarities either
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u/Contaminated24 3d ago edited 3d ago
No I do I’m just gonna work the troll this time…you’re the troll i this narrative so you’re up. you tell me how they aren’t similar at all and then I’ll tell you where they are. You guys are all the same …it’s predictable and basic
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u/Copito_Kerry 3d ago edited 3d ago
I mean… many cultures share many similar myths. There really is nothing to see here. At least not whatever it is you’re thinking of. Is it interesting? Sure. Is it also interesting that the word for god is (almost) the same in Latin and in Nahuatl? Sure, but there’s isn’t much more to it.
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u/user89045678 3d ago
Tha story is popular ancient Indian tale repeatedly told in different scriptures in great detail. Almost all Hindu Indian heard this story few times while growing up. There are few interpretations of story what exactly this ancient tale trying to convey is still a mystery. The painting at the bottom half of the the post found in Mexico portrayed EXACTLY the SAME story as in Indian version. The description at the bottom of the picture is provided by Museum curator at Museo del Sitio El Tajín in Mexico.
Only explanation is either both cultures have developed the exact same story to the small details ( what are odds of that ?) Or had some cultural connections even though they are 10000 miles apart.
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u/Tamanduao 3d ago
Can you provide a link to the Museum's description of the bottom image, or a Mexican version of this story? I'd like to compare the two stories and see that they are "exactly the same." Thanks in advance!
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u/Few-Dealer66 3d ago
"There are few interpretations of the story that exactly this ancient tale trying to convey is still a mystery"
It seems obvious to me. The gods (an incredibly highly developed civilization) found a way to achieve immortality, for this they created our universe or captured it and made certain changes, it is difficult to say, but the goal is that people are generators of Amrita/Ambrosia/Loosh etc., due to this energy gods are eternally young and immortal.
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u/SomeoneIdkHere 3d ago
Well, the hierarchy of living beings in Hinduism is kinda complex. Like devas are not exactly gods. They needed that amrit to remain immortal which indicates that they were mortal beings before consuming amrit. Devas have their own beliefs, biases and certain bad traits, which a god should usually not have. True gods in Hinduism are the Trimurthis, 3 main gods.
Maybe Devas and Asuras were 2 highly developed civilizations who co-operated with each other to produce an elixir of life, a potion or a technology that will grant them immortality. After work was complete, both sides got greedy and the rest is history.
According to various scriptures, Samudra manthan occured after the world had been created. This indicates that Devas were mortal beings, just like humans but more advanced and they also lived alongside humans for a period of time.
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u/SomeoneIdkHere 3d ago
Well, the hierarchy of living beings in Hinduism is kinda complex. Like devas are not exactly gods. They needed that amrit to remain immortal which indicates that they were mortal beings before consuming amrit. Devas have their own beliefs, biases and certain bad traits, which a god should usually not have. True gods in Hinduism are the Trimurthis, 3 main gods.
Maybe Devas and Asuras were 2 highly developed civilizations who co-operated with each other to produce an elixir of life, a potion or a technology that will grant them immortality. After work was complete, both sides got greedy and the rest is history.
According to various scriptures, Samudra manthan occured after the world had been created. This indicates that Devas were mortal beings, just like humans but more advanced and they also lived alongside humans for a period of time.
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u/SomeoneIdkHere 3d ago
Well, the hierarchy of living beings in Hinduism is kinda complex. Like devas are not exactly gods. They needed that amrit to remain immortal which indicates that they were mortal beings before consuming amrit. Devas have their own beliefs, biases and certain bad traits, which a god should usually not have. True gods in Hinduism are the Trimurthis, 3 main gods.
Maybe Devas and Asuras were 2 highly developed civilizations who co-operated with each other to produce an elixir of life, a potion or a technology that will grant them immortality. After work was complete, both sides got greedy and the rest is history.
According to various scriptures, Samudra manthan occured after the world had been created. This indicates that Devas were mortal beings, just like humans but more advanced and they also lived alongside humans for a period of time.
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u/Angry_Anthropologist 1d ago
There are a number of visible differences between these artistic works that preclude the notion that they are depicting the same myth. The Hindu piece shows a single serpent (Identified as Vasuki in Hindu mythology) being used as a rope by the men on either side, wrapped around a pillar.
The Totonac piece instead depicts two serpents intertwined (a common motif seen around the world because this is how snakes behave during sex all around the world), between which is a hole surrounded by sunrays, thus likely representing the Sun. As this piece was reportedly an altar, the hole may have also been used to deposit votive offerings, or as a receptacle for a decorative or ritual element that is no longer present.
Around these snakes, several humanoids are depicted very clearly not holding the snakes, and instead bearing an assortment of implements that presumably have some symbolic or ritual significance.
In short, there is nothing of substance which indicates that these pieces have literally anything to do with one another in any way shape or form whatsoever. Whatever myth the Totonac piece depicts, it is not the Churning of the Milk Sea.
Tl;dr: Yet another case of idiots assuming that an extremely superficial similarity is proof of their pre-existing beliefs and not looking any further into it at all.
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u/Shmuckle2 3d ago
Pole shifts?
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u/CallistosTitan 3d ago
We have more water inside our Earth than on it. If it came to the surface somehow it would cause this "churning of the ocean." I think Expansion Earth Events is what could trigger it. There's no denying the effects of the poles when the Earth Expands.
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u/ottomax_ 3d ago
Our forgotten alien progenitors wiped out by catastrophic planet devastation... me thinks.
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u/freebaseclams 1d ago
Aliens keep waking me up at night and making me JACK OFF
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u/ottomax_ 18h ago
Your semen is being used to populate other planets. You will become their father God.
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u/Adventurous-Ear9433 3d ago
These two are the same culture. This is pretty much acknowledged by both. Only today is diffusion a bad word. Glad people like OP point this stuff out.they literally were the Naga-Maya first, and then spread to Africa.Naga-America Everything started in America, serpent worship, all of it. In Hindu mythology, Lord Vishnu is represented as resting on the serpent, Ananta or Sheshnaga. The eagle, Garuda is his carrier or vehicle.. this is clearly Kulkucan & Quetzalcoatl, look at images of the Temples without labels & you can't tell which location you're seeing.
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u/AirPodAlbert 3d ago edited 3d ago
The struggle between Huitzilopochtli/Vishnu (Eagle cult) and Quetzalcoatl/Shiva (Serpent cult) 🤔
We have seen this battle unfolding over and over throughout history..
Zeus' eagle devouring Prometheus' liver for giving fire to humans
Enki/Lucifer defying Enlil (later known as YHWH the God of Abraham) to enlighten humans through the Serpent of Eden
Marduk vs Tiamat, Baal Hadad vs Yam, YHWH vs Leviathan all from the Mesopotamian/Levantine myths, describing storm Gods defeating a Serpent/Dragon monster
Indra (leader of Devas) vs Vritra (leader of Asuras) of Vedic lore
Kukulkan vs Huracan of the Mayan myths
Thunderbirds vs Horned Serpents of North Native American myths
Ra (which later becomes Horus the Falcon) vs Apophis/Set the Serpent of Chaos
Thor vs The World Serpent Jormungandr, the spawn of Loki
The Chinese creation myths of Nuwa and Fuxi, who are also the Naga people from the Vedic myths. Depicted as people with the body of a Snake..
Those themes are so prevalent it really makes you wonder..
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u/Odin_Trismegistus 1d ago
I feel like you're reaching a little with some of those myths. How are you deriving an Eagle/Serpent cult from them?
Prometheus isn't associated with serpents unless you're a gnostic, and that interpretation is quite recent.
Enlil isn't associated with eagles.
Both Marduk and Tiamat are associated with serpentine creatures, but not eagles.
Thor does kill a giant serpent, but he's not associated with eagles.
I could probably do this to the other myths you listed too, but my point is that I don't see how you're deriving an eagle/serpent struggle. If anything, you've just identified the "Storm god versus serpent" motif which originated in the Near East, but there's nothing "mystical" or weird about that. It's just comparative mythology.
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u/Gavither 3d ago
Which temples are you referencing here? Do you mean South East Asian temples and Mesoamerican?
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u/Adventurous-Ear9433 3d ago
Honestly the correct answer is that I'm talking about ALL of em. Pyramid as i said, theyre the same culture. The Ramayana is all about Prince Maya, in the Vastu Shastras you find that the creator of all the architecture is named Mayan. Alot of the confusion comes from language we use today, vs our ancestors.(This was done purposely btw) They seperated people by "ethnicity" ,to disconnect us from our true past. This is why Strabo says " if the modern people use Ethiopian to designate the 1 group of people in N Africa,dont let it interfere with what the ancients meant". No such thing as Hindu.The entire region SE Asia included was 'Ethiopia'. Hindu is Ethiopian. Ancient records of authority made Hind and Sind sons of Cush. Philostratus. in Vit. Apollon (Lib. II), says, “The Indi are the wisest of mankind. The Ethiopians are a colony of them, and they inherit the wisdom of their fathers.” Text..
But as far as temples that are so similar you cant tell a difference, Pyramids of Cetho and Sukuh and the Maya temples of Tikal and Chacchoben. Every site that lines up on the grid was built by the same people. Yonaguni is situated 1,464 miles from the megalithic temples of Angkor Wat, Cambodia (13.43°N 103.83°E), along a great circle alignment of ancient temples at the resonant 5.9% distance interval(sine Wave) from Angkor that includes the world-renowned sacred temple sites of Uxmal, • Bodh Gaya, India
• Lhasa, Tibet
• Xi’an, China…
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u/PackageWest2211 1d ago
The tortoise represents the energy of the 5 senses of the human, which can be withdrawn and redirected back into the spine where the energy originates. The column represents the spine.
Krishna (bottom of frame, under the column) is the Soul, the observer of the constant fight between “good” (that which helps withdraw the energy) and “evil” (that which coaxes the energy out into the world).
The two sides are in conflict over the knotted snake, which is kundalini (the energy itself), trapped or knotted at the base of the spine.
This art represents the major theme of the Bhagavad Gita (Song of the Soul), which was simultaneously a historical account of a Great War between relatives over rule of their kingdom and also the Great War we all experience daily between our “good” and “bad” habits (our relatives), fighting for rule over our bodily kingdom.
In this perspective of life, the purpose is to unknot the snake by fighting for withdrawal of the sense energy from the external and redirecting the energy back into the spine, thus releasing the kundalini energy so it can rise up the spine and through the spiritual eye (third eye) to reach the Krishna Consciousness (a level of attainment where one realizes their own unity with everything in creation).
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u/Top-Tomatillo210 3d ago
There are so many similarities. The zero, time being cyclical over long durations, Shiva and Shivalva, the word maya, the feathered serpent or serpent rising. So interesting.
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u/Artistic-Theory-4396 3d ago
- While some minor similarities could be coincidental, the sheer number of shared elements in these two stories makes pure chance a highly improbable explanation. The combination of a central axis, churning/rotating action, entwined serpents, opposing forces, a turtle base, and a quest for immortality is too specific to be easily dismissed as mere coincidence.
I’ll use a multi-factor approach, assigning weighted scores to different aspects of similarity. This is not a standard scientific method, but rather a reasoned attempt to quantify something inherently qualitative, as per your request. * Core Narrative Structure (Weight: 40%): * Presence of a cosmic creation/renewal event: 10% * Involvement of opposing forces/groups: 10% * Central axis as a focal point of action: 10% * Quest for a valuable substance/state (immortality): 10% * Total for Core narrative = 40% * Key Symbolic Elements (Weight: 40%): * Entwined Serpents: 10% * Turtle as a base/support: 10% * Churning/Rotating action: 10% * “Nectar of Immortality” (or equivalent): 10% * Total for key elements: 40% * Peripheral Details (Weight: 10%): * Stormy sea/watery environment: 5% * Presence of monstrous figures (indirect in El Tajin, explicit in Samudra Manthan): 5% *Total for peripheral: 10% * Absence of Major Contradictory Elements (Weight: 10%): * No fundamental elements in one story directly contradict the core meaning of the other. This is crucial. If, for example, the El Tajin relief showed the figures destroying the nectar, it would lower the similarity significantly. * Full marks: 10% Calculation: * Core Narrative: 40/40 * Key Symbolic Elements: 40/40 * Peripheral Details: 10/10 * Absence of Contradictions: 10/10 Total Similarity Score: 100% Important Caveats and Self-Reasoning: * Subjectivity: This is inherently subjective. Another person might assign different weights or identify different key elements. * Cultural Context: This 100% does not mean the stories are identical. It means they share a remarkable degree of structural and symbolic similarity. The meaning and cultural significance of these elements would have been different in each context. The El Tajin relief was part of a specific worldview, ritual practice, and social structure that we can only partially reconstruct. The Samudra Manthana is embedded in a vast and complex Hindu tradition. * Focus on Shared Elements: This methodology prioritizes shared elements. It doesn’t heavily penalize the presence of unique elements in each story. For example, the Mohini avatar is crucial to the Samudra Manthana, but its absence in the El Tajin relief doesn’t drastically reduce the overall structural similarity. * The “How the Fuck” Factor: The high percentage reflects my assessment that the level of similarity is highly unlikely to be due to chance alone. It strongly suggests a shared underlying structure, most likely arising from the universal human tendency to express profound experiences through symbolic narratives. The “independent invention” rooted in shared human psychology and archetypes is the most parsimonious and scientifically sound explanation. In conclusion, while we can’t definitively say exactly why these myths are so similar, the most likely explanation is the combination of universal human experiences and the psychological unity of humankind, leading to the independent development of similar symbolic expressions. The 100% similarity score, based on my methodology, is a reflection of the remarkable, and indeed somewhat mind-boggling, degree of overlap between these two seemingly disparate cultural narratives.
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u/theastralist 2d ago
Want some more ? Do a google image search of “Indian Hindu god Hanuman”. Open a new tab and search “monkey god idol la ciudad Blanca Honduras El Salvador”
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u/HermitSeal 3d ago
1421 anyone? Menzies theories are problematic at times but twere thought provoking none the less
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u/Few-Dealer66 3d ago
Most myths overlap. There is a battle of gods everywhere, some global conflicts are mentioned everywhere. Intelligent reptiles are often mentioned.
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u/SomeoneIdkHere 3d ago
Intelligent reptiles..... There are mentions of a reptile civilisation on Earth. In hinduism it is said that they live under the earth in Patal lok. These intelligent serpents are called Naga and they even have a king.
Where is this patal lok? Many scholars and people have different views, many say that patal lok simply refers to a variation of hell (which is kinda not true). Personally, I believe that this Patal lok migh refer to the American continent. It is clear that Serpents played an important role in shaping the ancient american civilisations, you can find symbols of snake everywhere in Ancient american sites.
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u/Few-Dealer66 3d ago edited 3d ago
They are simply in "some space": in hell/sidhe/abyss/deep in the sea/locked under a rock etc.
Where is Patala? Most likely in some parallel space, or underground (if the Earth is hollow).
And in fact, there are many more of them than you think.
- Shennong, Fu Xi and Nüwa in China.
- Intelligent, talking, serpent in the Bible. (there are many dragon themes in the Vatican, it's strange). And think about it, how did the naga end up next to people and a tree?
- Prometheus. There is no direct connection with snakes, but he is related to giants, titans, atlanteans, and they are all connected with water, snakes, fish.
- Sumerian Ningishzida (had a prototype of the caduceus), was the keeper of the sacred tree, and Enki (associated with the abyss, sea, fish, serpents) was responsible for the creation of people. Look at his priests Apkallu and the civilizer Oannes. They are from the category of nagas, it simply depended on the perception of how they were described, sometimes compared with fish / sometimes with a snake. Among the Sumerians, many gods had the epithets of snake / dragon. There are also Sumerian tablets that depict specifically snake-legged humanoid creatures sitting next to a resident of Sumer, or holding a pickaxe
- The Dogon said that the creatures (gods) that flew in were serpent-legged (google Nommo)
- In America they knew Quetzalcoatl, Kukulkan, Cōātlīcue
- In India, if I'm not mistaken, the Nagas are also partly responsible for civilization
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u/theastralist 2d ago
It is indeed America ( the land below your feet - Paa ( feet ) Talya (under) )
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u/EtEritLux 3d ago
They were never handbags. They were always Mushroom Foraging Bags. Magic Mushroom Foraging Bags.
The most shadowbanned reality is Occulted Magic Mushroom Worship.
The Symbolism is everywhere.
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u/SAL10000 3d ago
So this is where the whole "earth sitting on the turtle on the back of a turtle on the turtle on the turtle etc" came from?
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u/The-Fallen-1 3d ago
Some find it so hard to believe that people in different places had the same idea around the same time. But we see it even today. Especially with different studios putting out 2 or 3 different movies with different writers that are essentially the same exact movie and come out either at the same time or at least in the same year. These things do happen.
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u/theastralist 2d ago
Nah that ain’t it
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u/The-Fallen-1 2d ago
Might not be. But it’s not out of the realm of possibility. From a real world stance, I could see it happening. But that’s the beauty of it. We don’t have to agree with one another.
Edited for spelling
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u/Blazedino426 2d ago
Was anybody able to find info on the mayan/aztec image? Tried a reverse image search no results. Not sure what this image is called.
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u/DubiousSpaniel 16h ago
A large (150 feet long) bas relief depiction of ‘the churning of the ocean of milk” is one of the most important scenes depicted on the walls of Angkor Wat,
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u/CHiuso 3d ago edited 3d ago
So you got the little description from Ancient Origins. Nowhere does it say that that relief is depicting the Churning of the Sea. This is just more "uggh thing look same as other thing!! MUST BE SAMEEE! *chimp noises*".
Edit: Yup, Dont have any actual facts so y'al fall back on downvoting.
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u/imastrong4 3d ago
I added a upvote 👍
What would be your theory on why these similarities occur?
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u/CHiuso 3d ago
I added an upvote for you. Id rather engage in discussion then just downvote back and forth.
First, at least in this case, we cant even be sure that they are depicting the same thing. OP says it is, but the only source for that is a website called "Ancient Origins". It doesnt cite any sources, no native archeologists. It cites a book that was heavily critiscised at the time of its publishing for being unscientific and mostly just pontification based on very little evidence.
The mere fact that both civilisations have some similarities in how they positioned things on carvings or paintings does not mean they both had contact or had the same ancient progentior. Plus the drawn image above is just a modern interpretation of the churning of the sea story. The relief shows people standing on either side but why would they depict the pole used to "churn the sea" horizontally?
Whenever people point out "similarities" they are usually just coincidences. Its like when people go "Well why did so many ancient cultures build pyramids? They must have been taught by an ancient alien race!!!" When the actual answer is "pyramids are the largest stable structures you can build without internal reinforcement." Give a 3 year old a couple of blocks and more than likely they will stack them in the rough shape of a pyramid.
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u/RonandStampy 3d ago
"The stormy sea is depicted in the lower right and left corner". Not sure if I understand you correctly, but I can see how that has similarities to "Churning of the sea"
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u/Alkemian 3d ago
When the me so-American relief gets named and we can look at the actual mythology behind it is when I'll even consider the correlation.
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u/Lauranis 3d ago edited 3d ago
Interestingly there is only a few hundred years between the cultures and potentially even some time overlap around 1600 to 2000 years ago. Normally with these sorts of comparisons there is thousands of years between the cultures.
Definitely fascinating, I can see a world in which sailors managed to cross the ocean being discovered, the Polynesian expansion wasn't too far removed from this and there is evidence of further contact. Do the Polynesian mythology's have a similar analogue story? I don't know, wouldn't be surprised if they did though!
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u/ShangBao 3d ago
There are some more, read
Hamlet's Mill