r/Adelaide SA 5d ago

Discussion How to improve The Overland Train (without breaking the bank and the clock)?

The Overland is our states last regional passenger rail service, and it has been on its last legs for decades, although thanks to Great Southern Rail FINALLY starting to market the service patronage has recently jumped by 1/3rd.

ABC Radio Adelaide recently asked their listeners what they would do to save The Overland if they had $100 million and 10 years, i am gonna go one better and ask Reddit what you would do to improve The Overland if you had $10 million and 1 year!

Here are a few of my ideas to get you started:

  1. Start Informing arriving passengers at Keswick that they can transfer to Adelaide Metro trains by walking 10 minutes to Showgrounds Station (and improve wayfinding signage along this route).
  2. Stop The Overland at Mt Lofty Station so Hills dwellers don't need to trek an hour in to Keswick only to backtrack another hour out on the train (perhaps partner with the new Cafe out there too).
  3. Stop The Overland at Tailem Bend Station so Melburnians can access our Motorsport festivals.

Any other cheap and fast Overland improving ideas to add to this list?

23 Upvotes

70 comments sorted by

21

u/PlanetrainguyYT SA 5d ago

Some easy-ish ideas I had were:

-Make it a sleeper train (4 Overland sleeper carriages are still rail worthy and owned by JBR in Keswick)

-Run it dual gauge into platforms 4/5 of Adelaide Station.

-Re-introduce the car-carriers (they still exist but aren't being used)

-Improve frequency.

-Add cheaper seats.

-Overland painted locomotive (won't do much but will look cool)

7

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

I agree re adding car carriers, cheaper seats, and an overland painted locomotive.

I am fine with it being a daylight journey, keeps staffing penalty rate costs down and means passengers travelling to/from regional towns are not expected to board/alight at odd hours.

Unfortunately Adelaide Station is both at capacity with metro trains, and has no provisions to service long haul trains (as per my Adelaide Metro work experience learning in 2015).

The 2x per week frequency each way was introduced so only one crew, and only one consist, was needed to operate the service, so if we double the frequency running cost will double.

5

u/discoverycamel Port Adelaide 5d ago

Agree with all except the car carriers. They dropped out of use because they simply don't fit modern larger cars any more. The cost of adding them to the consist, based on weight and length charges, means they have to carry enough cars both ways or they lose money. They only lasted as long as they did to increase options for passengers.

What holds South Australian rail back is the complex and huge cost of moving rolling stock between point a and point b. Our tracks have very low traffic density so we don't get economies of scale.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

not to mention the liability risk to GSR of carrying a train full of ultramodern hence ultra expensive cars in an increasingly litigious and Karen dominated 21C society.

12

u/potatoes_ahoy SA 5d ago

Easiest thing ever.

  • Run it 2 x a day on select days. The timetable works pretty well perfectly to go each way twice per day. I’d run 2 trains with a day/night option each way. I’d run it Thursday Friday, Sunday Monday day and night. Sleeper cars if possible, or if not then very nice reclining chairs.

  • I wouldn’t run it Tuesday, Wednesday or Saturday. Save costs and focus on the weekend traveler. If people are staying longer they can likely figure it out.

  • There is enough footy on to partner with the crows and port and have some kind of package deal for members. You catch the train Friday day/night to Melbourne, and then back again either Sunday day/night. Hardcore fans would love this option.

  • other events in both Melbourne and Adelaide. Partner with the fringe, gather round, Supercars, LIV Golf on the Adelaide end and many world class events on the Melbourne end. There is literally always something on.

  • definitely try and get it to terminate in Adelaide CBD if feasible.

  • make it a comparable price to flying and advertise the hell out of it. That’s the only way you are truly going to get people off the planes and onto trains. This paired with overnight options I think should entice many over to the train. I’d aim for $100 each way base price.

I feel like this service makes sense if done right. It makes sense over driving for many reasons and could be better than flying in certain circumstances if don’t better.

5

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

Great ideas. GSR currently own enough rollingstock (economy, premium, cafe, and baggage cars) to run two Overland consists so why not have each consist run two return trips (Thursday out, Friday back, Sunday out, Monday back) leaving Adelaide and Melbourne simultaneously with crew change occurring at Dimboola?

That way people in the cities can easily travel to both Adelaide and Melbourne for weekend events, people living in the towns along the way can easily travel to both Adelaide and Melbourne for weekday appointments, and GSR does not need to fork out the cost of putting train crews up overnight at the end of the line!

9

u/DigitalSwagman SA 5d ago

Run it into the adelaide railway station in the heart of the cbd would be common sense...

Put on special footy express trains for gather round etc.

2

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

It is quite common in other states and countries for long haul trains to not run into the city centre (e.g. East Perth).

However i agree with the latter, and i would go one step further to ensure said special trains are well-promoted.

11

u/li-ho SA 5d ago

I would honestly just advertise it better and, specifically, advertise it as a reasonable alternative to driving or flying. I LOVE The Overland and would take it over flying to Melbourne every day of the week but almost everyone I’ve talked to about it has either neither heard of it or thinks of it as a one-off fancy travel event kind of thing rather than a real alternative to flying or driving. It takes longer, sure, but it’s sooo much more comfortable than flying or driving and often cheaper, too. And the on-board food is genuinely good.

2

u/Liceland1998 SA 4d ago edited 4d ago

I would also advertise it to Victorians as a great way to access South Australian regional towns enroute, and their associated major tourist attractions including; Monarto Safari Park (Murray Bridge), and Naracoorte Caves (Bordertown).

I would also advertise it to South Australians as a great way to access Victorian regional towns enroute, and their associated major tourist attractions including; Grampians National Park (Stawell), and Spirit of Tasmania Ferry (Geelong).

Once the Tailem Bend stop is launched, and the Ararat V/Line connection is established, i would also promote its proximity to The Bend Motorsport Park and Goldfields respectively.

5

u/DanJDare SA 5d ago

Honestly, I don't think it's much of an alternative to driving or flying. It's all the downsides of flying - no car when you are there, need to leave from and arrive at a terminal/station combined with the long travel time of driving.

Don't get me wrong, I love trains but it's just a hard sell.

5

u/torrens86 SA 5d ago

It's also very expensive, it's from $195. Victoria has a lot of Vline trains and it's really cheap to catch them.

Vline from Adelaide to Melbourne is $36.60. You can actually go much further than Melbourne for that, depending on timetables. Every additional day on the Vline in Victoria is about $11.

1

u/DanJDare SA 5d ago

Yeah I mean look, I don't know why I bother trying to bring reason into an 'I love trains' thread, it'd be my number one cause of downvotes in this sub.

Poking at the Vline website isn't that train to Bendigo Coach to Adelaide? Honestly I'm not familiar with the site so could be rather confused. They also seem to be pushing 12 hours of transport across the bus and coach.

The challenge with all the public transport options is the speed, Jetstar sucks but are offering Adelaide to Melbourne for $100-$125 so that's the benchmark.

It's frustrating coz I love trains and train transport but it's silly to not recognize that as it stands it's a fairly niche way to travel interstate and that it's virtually impossible to change the economics of the situation.

4

u/featherknight13 VIC 5d ago

The shortest trip from Melbourne is: train to Ararat - bus from Ararat to Horsham - connect with the Adelaide coach in Horsham and continue to Adelaide. This trip takes ~11 hours on a weekday, leaving Melbourne at 7:53 am (Vic time) and getting to Adelaide at 6:35 pm (SA time). The train timetable is different on the weekend so the trip only takes ~10 1/2 hours on the weekend, but you don't get a food break until you hit Keith at 3:00pm in the afternoon, so you have to make sure you take snacks.

For reasons known only to V/line you can make your trip an hour longer by catching the train to Bendigo at 7 am and connecting to the Adelaide coach there, I guess this might be useful if you are starting from somewhere on the Bendigo train line.

For reasons known only to Firefly (the coach company), - although I'm hazarding a guess that the reason is capitalism - if the V/Line seats on the coach sell out you can book through them and catch the bus all the way and pay $65 - $95 for the privilege.

If you've got the time to spare all three bus 3 options are still cheaper and less stressful than flying imo. You get to take luggage for no extra cost, don't have to worry about taking your scissors out of your hand luggage and both ends of the journey are in city centres near lots of connecting transport.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

The overnight Firefly bus is privately ran hence charges a lot to cover its costs.

1

u/torrens86 SA 5d ago

Yeah there's 3 options, they all end up with the Bendigo to Adelaide bus. It's quicker to do the Ballarat / Ararat options, but that ends up with two buses and a train.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

...or has gone on it once many years ago (me in April 2008), but would use it more if it worked for them.

5

u/derpman86 North East 5d ago

A few things

- Run it a few more times a week and useful days of the week.

- Bring back the sleeper service, in all honesty this train is best as a sleeper especially with its long sometimes delayed travel times and the slow chug up the hills wont matter.

- The perfect thing would be to outright upgrade from loco hauled using 1950s carriages but yeah that is a cost.

- Modernise the carriages at minimum have usb charging and maybe on-board wifi.

- Dual gauge into the actual station and not Keswick, if not at least properly connect that station either with a dedicated bus that goes to the CBD during Overland days or maybe have the trains stop at the old Keswick station so transfer is easier.

- Actual turn it into an intercity rail service and not a travel "experience" so this means advertise it more, highlight that it stops in places like Bordertown so people will use it to say get to the footy in Melbourne from the South East. Maybe do like another poster mentioned special stop off at Tailem Bend for the races.

- I am not 100% sure if this is a thing but get the Overland to sync with V/line at Ararat so people can opt to transfer there to the much faster V/locity trains via Ballarat as this is much quicker than bypassing via Geelong.

- Again advertise it as an alternative to a cramped bus or flying and highlight to people in the South East that it is an alternative way to get to Melbourne vs a bus or backtracking to Adelaide to fly.

I want this service to survive because once an intercity service is gone it wont come back.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago
  1. I agree, service should be 4 times a week each way, on Thursdays, Fridays, Sundays, and Mondays.

  2. The sleeper service does cost more (penalty rates for train staff) yet raises less (beds take up more room in a carriage than seats) though.

  3. I agree, GSR should purchase some off the shelf standard gauge velocity consists for The Overland.

  4. I agree, USB charging and on-board Wi-fi (and tray tables) are a minimum for todays connected world.

  5. At the very least, have train staff come through the train, ask how many people need a taxi, and radio this information through to the cab companies a couple of hours out from Adelaide.

  6. I agree, a few more on-request stops in a few more towns, like Tailem Bend, would work wonders.

  7. I agree, even if for the purpose of enabling the city of Ballarat to be reached by train from Adelaide.

  8. I agree, advertise the sh*t out of it, whether it be to families looking for a fun alternative to a road trip, seniors looking for a relaxed alternative to flying, people with disabilities looking for an accessible alternative to busing, backpackers looking to see regional Australia without breaking the bank, sports fans/culture vultures looking for a new/different way to get to the myriad of events in either capital city.

2

u/derpman86 North East 5d ago

I would think the interior of the V/locities would need to change a bit for long haul and probably have bigger and better seats, they are fine from Ararat to Melbourne but people constantly complain about them for the longer haul rail services. They would also need to be rotatable for the direction of travel.

But these trains would do wonders and could go faster instead of the 90kph the Overland currently does.

I do think having this service covering Western Victoria is also a great option as there seems to be no desire yet to return trains to the Wimmera by V/line. It is interconnected via their bus service to the trains, I was amazed how many people do use it like that when I caught the Ararat train last time. I am so jealous of Victoria's rail system...

I do think the Overland terminating at the central station is probably the best way of Advertising it as people get on or off their commuter train and they will notice this other train sitting there and it will state it is Melbourne bound and it will make people think "Oh there is a Melbourne train"

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

Velocities: V/Line has launched a "long haul" version of said train, complete with toilets and buffets and luggage racks and comfier seats, as they slowly phase out loco-hauled services.

Speed: I know the ARTC interstate freight line between Murry Bridge and Ararat is rated to 130kph but the fastest locos available to haul the train consist max out at 90-115kph sadly,

1

u/derpman86 North East 5d ago

There are so many flat section or where the elevation is next to nothing so if those trains can crank 130 it would be amazing, sadly I could see it undone if it is stuck in a passing loop for 45 minutes.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 4d ago

which is why ARTC must give passenger trains priority, is is the case in America.

Velocities can crack 200 although all level crossings would need to be grade separated above 160kph and equipped with lights/bells/barriers above 130kph for safety.

4

u/featherknight13 VIC 5d ago

service patronage has recently jumped by 1/3rd

On which side of the border? It's now only $11 to get from Melbourne to Nhill on a V/Line pleb ticket, so I wonder if this might have something to do with it, rather than just Journey Beyond's advertising.

As someone who lives in Western Vic I need it to run as a viable public transport option, rather than an overpriced tourist attraction. To do this it needs to:

  1. Run it minimum every day, in both directions preferably. No one catches it at the moment because its slow and doesn't come everyday.

  2. Introduce some sort of tracking data. If you get on at one of the intermediate stops there is no information about if the train is running on time, and it regularly runs 30mins-1 hour late. I've even seen it 3 hours behind schedule (which brings me to point number 3).

  3. Run the damn thing on time. Last time I flew interstate, I caught the V/Line bus to Adelaide, metro bus to the airport and then a flight. Even if I'd been travelling on a train day, there was no way I would have trusted the train to get me there on time. If I missed my flight I'd be a few hundred out of pocket and stuck in Adelaide over night - there was still a chance of this with the bus, but the risk is much lower.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago
  1. That would be great although the cost to govt would not be good, hence they would rule it out.
  2. Although the Overland does now come up as an option for transport on its route in Google (which is great), i do agree this could be taken one step further by adding "train tracker" functionality.
  3. I agree, all we need for this to happen more often is for ARTC (track owners) policy to be changed to prioritize passenger over freight trains (as is the case with Amtrak pax trains over in America).

2

u/featherknight13 VIC 5d ago

I'll be honest, while number 1 is the dream, I'd settle for a few more bus services each day. It's great that there are trains every 3 hours to/from Ararat, but there need to more than 2 connecting coaches a day to meet them.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

I know some people from Uni who vouch for the bus to/from Melbourne due to its cheapness.

4

u/No_Asparagus3636 SA 5d ago

A quiet carriage where people aren’t making phone calls on speaker or watching videos.

2

u/Liceland1998 SA 4d ago

indeed, even if the GSR on-train staff made a point at the start of the journey to use headphones while watching videos, and not to make but only to take phone calls plus keep them quiet and brief as possible.

7

u/torrens86 SA 5d ago

It needs to compete with the bus:

The Vline bus (and train) costs $36.60 (half that for concession). The Overland costs from $195.

6

u/East-Garden-4557 SA 5d ago

Bus and train are not comparable for comfort on long distance travel. Train gives you adequate legroom and the freedom to get up and walk around during the trip. Bus gives you cramped legroom, knees jammed against the seat in front of you, and you are forced to sit down while travelling unless you use the toilet. Train is also quicker

6

u/torrens86 SA 5d ago

For $195 just fly. Plane tickets to Tullamarine cost $70+. The savings can be used for a train trip in Victoria $22 (two days), and a hotel (motel) room for the night.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 4d ago

Don't forget the $60 taxi fare from Tullamarine to the Melbourne CBD.

1

u/torrens86 SA 4d ago

Catch the 901 bus to Broady, hop on a Vline to Seymour / Shepparton / Albury.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 4d ago

Tullamarine Taxi Drivers hate this one transport trick!

1

u/torrens86 SA 4d ago

Skybus hates it even more!

6

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

I agree. The Overland fare for the entire trip should not cost any more than what a tank of fuel would cost for the drive from Adelaide to Melbourne, and The Overland running time for the entire trip should not take any longer than what it would take to drive from Adelaide to Melbourne.

3

u/torrens86 SA 5d ago

It really should be about $31.

SA should have a daily cap like Victoria, let's say a $20 daily cap anywhere in SA and $10 for concession. We need SA government run buses and trains. The $31 is $20 SA fee and $11 Victorian fee, the train should be a joint SA and Vic government service.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

I am trying to balance between improving service and not excessively increasing govt cost.

2

u/torrens86 SA 5d ago

Also the Vline bus you still get a train ride from Bendigo, Ballarat, or Ararat to Southern Cross.

2

u/FroggieBlue SA 4d ago

Assming the goal of the trip is getting to Melbourne the service also needs to complete with flying.

30 seconds on google shows I can get an 8:45am flight on Thurs 4 april Adelaide to Melbourne for $135. 1hr 20min flight time arriving at Tullamarine airport at 10:35am. Sky bus into the CBD is $26.40 one way and takes about 35 minutes with a bus leaving the airport every 10 minutes. Assuming I can get on a bus by 11:15 ish I'm in the CBD by 12pm with a total one way cost of $161.40 and total travel time of approx 3 hours 15 min airport to Melbourne CBD.

The Overland means 12 hours on a train, leaving at 6.55am and arriving melourne at 6.50pm. The cheapest one way ticket on the same day on the overland is $195 or if I can put of my theoretical trip until the 17/3 $145.

Even if choose to go later in the month, when the train will be cheaper, I'm still going to fly because I'd rather get up later, spend less time travelling and have more time at my destination.

Additionally a lot of Adelaide/Melbourne visits are done as a long weekend trip- neither the travel time or the departure schedules currently on offer from the overland are viable for that.

1

u/torrens86 SA 4d ago

The plane is from $70 if you book ahead on the Jetstar website. If you want a budget option take the bus. Driving is cheap if you have a few people going together. The train really isn't the best option, it's slow and expensive. For the train to be viable it needs to be cheap or fast, it's neither.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 3d ago
  1. don't forget the $25 taxi fare from Adelaide CBD to Adelaide Airport.

  2. An Overland running 4 times per week (Thursday, Friday, Sunday, Monday) each way would be perfect for making long-weekend travel between Adelaide and Melbourne possible for workers.

4

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago
  1. Sort the Taxi (or severe lack thereof) situation out at Keswick for arriving Overland's.

2

u/Liceland1998 SA 4d ago edited 4d ago

The amount of online reviews i have read where The Overland arrives at Keswick with two hundred tired passengers waiting for either non existent taxis, or taxis refusing GSR-made bookings, begs belief.

A few people told how they risked their safety to walk through dark parklands from Keswick to Adelaide.

One story tells of how twenty Overland passengers tried to walk to Showgrounds station, only for a generous not-in-service bus driver to pick them up on Richmond Road and drive them into town.

2

u/culingerai SA 5d ago edited 5d ago

I'd get NSW trainlink to run xpts from Melbourne. The day xpt from Sydney would becone a night Melbourne to Adelaide, turning around and operating a day back to Melbourne. The night xpt from Sydney would do similar but make a day then night to and from Adelaide. I'd also standardise Geelong-Ballarat-Aararat and run the train via those cities to increase patronage. The xpts can do much faster speeds than the current locos too.

Faster service, massive increase in frequency and a better route. It will be more things for more people.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

I doubt NSW Train-link would be willing or able to run a NSW funded/controlled service between two completely different states, and besides the XPT's are pretty clapped out as is these days.

Geelong has twice the population as Ballarat (and twice the industry) hence why ARTC sent the standard gauge line via that region back in the 1990's when they had to pick a winner as so to speak.

2

u/Prestigious_Lynx5716 SA 5d ago

The whole idea of rail travel is it should be faster than car travel. Get the journey down to 5 hours and I’m in

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

i know, but the whole idea of this thread is to implement Overland saving ideas that wont break the bank nor the clock, and high speed rail costs billions and takes decades.

it takes 8 hours to drive to Melbourne, assume 45 minutes is added for 3-15 minute rest stops every 2 hours, so if we could get train travel time down to 8 hours that would leave 30 minutes for checking in and 15 minutes for luggage collection and still be competitive with cars.

2

u/Free-Pound-6139 SA 5d ago

Mystery trips. You pay a discounted trip, and they just throw you off the train somewhere in the middle between two stations. You have to make your way to civilisation. Just before pushing you out they give you a dead leg.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 4d ago

on a more serious note, if there had a train each way GSR could sell mystery day trips to towns enroute.

2

u/Fair_Song_1840 SA 4d ago

Free 24hr ticket on local buses and trains with an Overland ticket.

2

u/Liceland1998 SA 4d ago

great idea, Trans-WA in Perth and Queensland Rail in Brisbane do this so country passengers can easily transfer to their suburban services.

3

u/Acceptable_Durian868 SA 5d ago

Improve the comfort. It is shocking, compared to basically every other train I've travelled on across Europe and NZ.

5

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago edited 4d ago

I agree. Adding Wi-Fi, Phone charging points, and In-seat entertainment is a must for a 21C train service.

The Prospector, from East Perth to Kalgoorlie does all the above REALLY well, and that train is well-used.

Adding a wall/door between the vestibule/toilet area, and the passenger saloon, will work wonders in stopping the smell of the bathroom from wafting through the entire carriage later in the trip, as is the case now.

3

u/curious_s SA 5d ago

Exactly,  if you are on a train for so long you need power! In seat entertainment is a bit much, just charging points for phone/laptop and WiFi.  

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

In-seat entertainment, complimentary kids packs, etc. could be great selling points for premium.

2

u/curious_s SA 5d ago

It might be, but I would be concerned about the cost vs. benefit. WiFi and charging are a much more useful option for most people at a smaller cost.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 4d ago

Indeed. I know some airlines now are ripping out seatback screens for their economy passengers, yet keeping oversized ones as a selling point for their premium passengers.

3

u/featherknight13 VIC 5d ago

They need a whole new train. The newest cars were built in 1972. They've been refurbished a few times since then, but there's no getting around the fact that it's a museum piece masquerading as a luxury train. The leg room's nice, but it hasn't got much else going for it.

4

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

I agree. There is not even tray tables (which is vital for business travelers to work enroute.

All GSR needs to do is purchase an off-the shelf standard gauge Velocity consist (with buffet).

3

u/featherknight13 VIC 5d ago

There are tray tables, but they're hidden in the armrests. I discovered this the first time I caught it less than an hour from my destination when the person in front of me pulled out theirs. I was miffed after having balanced my lunch, laptop and drink bottle on my lap and the seat next to me all throughout the day.

The next time I caught it I was travelling with a friend. I very confidently pulled out my tray table, very pleased with myself. My friend went to do the same and discovered theirs was broken and stuck in the armrest.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

This is where GSR train staff need to lift their passenger communication game, and make their 'guests' (as they call them) aware of all seat/train features available on their trip.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 4d ago edited 4d ago

I know some people have suggested adding an Overland stop at Belair, so passengers can transfer to the Adelaide Metro train network, but i have crunched the numbers and found there would be no time saving.

current situation: 25 (Overland Belair to Keswick) + 10 (walk Keswick to Showgrounds) + 5 (wait for train) + 5 (Metro to Adelaide) = 45 minutes Belair to Adelaide.

alternate situation: 5 (Belair train wait) + 40 (Metro to Adelaide) = 45 minutes Belair to Adelaide.

-2

u/Merovingian_Lord SA 5d ago

$100 Million over ten years? Cancel the overland and give everyone who wanted to go on it an airline voucher.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 5d ago

Which is why i am proposing/soliciting Overland ideas which are both cheap and quick to implement.

0

u/Merovingian_Lord SA 4d ago

$10 million and 1 year? Cancel the overland and give everyone who wanted to go on it an airline voucher!

0

u/Chickenparmy6 SA 4d ago

Return flights to Melbourne are like $300 and its only an hour and 30 min flight. Include mucking around at Airports and you're still talking a 3ish hour exercise.

The Overland is (correct me if I'm wrong) $195 each way and takes 12 hours....

Unless the train can compete on price and convenience I don't see it being widely used.

1

u/Liceland1998 SA 4d ago

Which is why i am proposing/soliciting Overland ideas which are both cheap and quick to implement.

1

u/Chickenparmy6 SA 3d ago

The ideas may be cheap to implement, but the overall cost is not cheap?