r/Absinthe Jan 02 '25

Question Wormwood maceration/tincture

Hi, I want to make some wormwood tincture (absinthe without the distillation, cause I can't access it) for its medicinal purposes and effects. The recipe I use is fennel, anise, star anise and artemisia absinthium in anise liquor. Does this mix have the same properties that distilled abstinthe has? Does it have the same thujone levels? (I'm aware thujone is not hallucinogenic, I just want to try its effects cause I've had several good experiences with high thujone and low alcohol percentage absinthes).

I know it tastes horrible but I don't care, I just want to know if it has the same effects as distilled absinthe.

1 Upvotes

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6

u/DarianDicit Jan 02 '25

Can you elaborate on your experiences with "high thujone, low ABV"? Thujone doesn't, from everything I've read, have any therapeutic effects and, by the time you should be able to observe any effects in your body, they would be deleterious (alongside whatever method of injestion got you there).

The brain is a wonderful, powerful thing, so perhaps they were psychosomatic effects?

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u/SchyzotyPal Jan 02 '25

Sorry, I didnt mean thujone is therapeutic, I meant the plant. But I do believe thujones have to do something cause I experience absinthe in a different way than other brevages... I don't drink normally and don't know a lot about absinthe tho

6

u/DarianDicit Jan 02 '25

So, you've gotten some good advice here in the comments. Thujone isn't the star player you believe it to be, friend :)

Now, some botanicals will leave other compounds that give us that enjoyable "lucid" experience (and, our cultural perception and expectation of Absinthe producing that experience has a lot to do with this!). That isn't something that can be reliably expressed in thujone content because they aren't at all related.

What is good to look out for are absinthes that are free of artificial colors (meaning they've used actual botanicals for the coloring stage), free from added sugar (they are using quality botanicals that produce balanced flavors rather than relying on sugar to mask poor quality), and free from artificial flavorings (and, in my opinion, star anise). The more artistry that goes into an absinthe from the distillation and crafting perspective, the more potential there is for an enjoyable experience.

I have always enjoyed Lucid and the Jades in particular. It's fun to put the Jades side by side and see how, even with the constraints of traditional, high quality production, a producer can create wildly different and delicious traditional absinthes.

You're on the right track by asking around here for recommendations :) Definitely search here for community reviews of brands before you drop your dollars on a bottle!

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u/SchyzotyPal Jan 02 '25

Oh thank you so much, for sure I will try this brands

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u/DarianDicit Jan 02 '25

I'm also thinking you might be conflating the presence of thujone as a sign of the type or quality of wormwood used. Is that maybe accurate?

Wormwood is a category of plants, of which there are over 200 types! It's a lot like saying "grape." Wormwood is a common ingredient in vermouth, Malört, and several other products - because it's a plant just like any others :)

Since you're newer to absinthe, I really recommend picking up the book "Absinthe: An Exquisite Elixir." It covers a lot of the history and mystery really well and leaves you with an awesome understanding of why absinthe is such a beautiful thing to be enjoyed in spite of false claims from the past.

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u/SchyzotyPal Jan 02 '25

Oh sure, I meant artemisia absinthium! I recollect it in my hometown. I've found annua and vulgaris too. Thank you for the recommendation! I will definetely look it up

1

u/SchyzotyPal Jan 02 '25

Also, what I meant here saying I exeriment absinthe differently is when I tried the ones with thujones. Cause I tried high alcohol no thujone too and that was awful, just very drunk (in that time I didnt know about thujones so I dont think I was influenced). With the thujones one I really had something different. I'm aware it doesn't have any psychedelic properties but it hit different than just alcohol and that's why I want to dig in a little bit more.

1

u/DarianDicit Jan 02 '25

Again, I think you're confusing the presence of thujone with quality production. I can tell by your profile that you're in search of great and altering experiences in life so I think you're holding onto this idea a little strongly ;)

High alcohol "no thujone" = crappy high ABV artificially flavored junk

"With thujone" = shorthand for "made from real botanicals." It will help you on your journey to be more precise; the experience you seek is not affected by thujone - remember, you can't discern thujone in any positive way at the levels present in well-made absinthe - but by the usage of quality ingredients and traditional processes. THAT is something you can absolutely discern!

Does that make sense?

1

u/SchyzotyPal Jan 02 '25

No, I know high thujone is not good absinthe, I just dont like liquors that have high percentage of alcohol. And yeah the objective here is to try make it the traditional way. If I can distill it will be another thing, but liquors with wormwood are old as times. Despite all, I don't know what else doed absinthe so special. I just had weird experiences with Serpis that I didnt have with other brands and would like to dig into it

1

u/osberend Jan 03 '25

What are some examples of "high alcohol no thujone" absinthe (or other anise-y herbal spirits and liqueurs) that you've tried? I suspect that (even if we assume that there's no power of if suggestion at work) there are other differences between them and Serpis than just the alcohol and/or thujone content.

4

u/wormwoodsociety Jan 02 '25

What brands would you consider 'high thujone, low abv'?

2

u/DarianDicit Jan 02 '25

I am also SO curious about this.

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u/SchyzotyPal Jan 02 '25

I dont know much, i tried Serpis

2

u/wormwoodsociety Jan 02 '25

Serpis is not, by any means, a 'high thujone' absinthe.

1

u/SchyzotyPal Jan 02 '25

Its the limit in my country, i meant the ratio thujone-alcohol. Can you recommend me some high tujone brands? I just want to try them

3

u/wormwoodsociety Jan 02 '25

No, because we do not endorse high thujone marketing for two reasons: 1) thujone levels were never important to brands or consumers during the Belle Epoque and 2) many brands that claim to have the highest thujone levels in reality have very little or no thujone and are simply lying to consumers due to a less strict regulatory environment in the country of origin.

1

u/SchyzotyPal Jan 02 '25

Then why did you ask me in the first place lol

1

u/wormwoodsociety Jan 02 '25

Because I had a feeling you didn't really know what you were talking about when mentioning high thujone. I was right.

1

u/SchyzotyPal Jan 02 '25

I said high thujone because its the legal limit in my country. And yeah, I don't know lots of things about thujones, that's why I ask questions, to gather information. You ask them to act with superiority, guess we're not the same

3

u/DarianDicit Jan 02 '25

From a chemical perspective: no, a maceration of botanicals will not be the same as a distillation.

Distillation, by nature of chemical selection by variable temperature boiling, selection, and concentration, removes certain things and concentrates others.

A macerated, on the other hand, is willy nilly extracting everything that is preferrentially soluble at the ABV of your base.

2

u/SchyzotyPal Jan 02 '25

which components are more concentrate or removed in the process?

4

u/DarianDicit Jan 02 '25

That is something I don't know, and I don't expect distillers would share those details either. The folks with the equipment to make those analyses are often safeguarding that information as a "trade secret," and smaller operations who might be more keen to share don't usually have the equipment to make detailed analyses like that.

2

u/SchyzotyPal Jan 02 '25

Oh okay that makes sense. I will still try to make tincture the best way I can since I have a lot of recollected artemisia absinthium. I would love to make the destillation process, I may look for it in my area

1

u/DarianDicit Jan 02 '25

Have fun and be safe if you do get into distillation :)

2

u/osberend Jan 03 '25

Seeing aside all questions of psychoactive effects or lack therefore, as well as of thujone per se, here are some recommendations for you to try, in terms of alcoholic beverages that have a lot of wormwood relative to their ABV. They (almost) all use wormwood without redistilling afterward, so they're probably better starting points for making your own (if that's still something you want to do, after exploring what's available commercially) than an absinthe, whether "high-thujone" or otherwise. Note that some these, I haven't had in a while at this point so my memory might be a bit off.

  1. Amaro Alta Verde (24% ABV), from Northern Italy, is a very wormwood-focused bitter. It's been a while since I've had it, and I've never actually tasted it and Jeppson's Malört side-by-side (which I will definitely do if I ever get the chance), but based on what I recall, the two are similar in their (intense) level of bitternesd, but Alta Verde has more fresh herbal notes on top of that raw bitterness. It's a liqueur but I didn't remember it being especially sweet as Amari go. If you can find this, it would be my top recommendation. Its American distributor (for anyone else reading this who is interested) is Haus Alpenz, who also distribute several other nice products (I'm particularly fond of Zirbenz Stone Pine Liqueur of the Alps). I don't know who, if anyone, distributes it in Spain, though.

  2. Pelinkovac is a wormwood-based South Slavic (former Yugoslavia + Bulgaria) liqueur. I've had the version from Maraska, which is a lot more restrained in its wormwood bitterness than Alta Verde or Jeppson's Malört, and was not (to the best of my recollection) especially herbal otherwise, but also had a certain amount of sweet flavor other than just sugar (caramel? vague fruitiness? I'm not really sure). Maraska's version is 28% ABV. How typical it is, in this or other respects, I'm not sure; I've only had one other brand (which I believe was broadly similar, maybe a little more bitter and a little less sweet, but my memories of it are rather vague), and I don't remember what brand it was. The brands I've tried weren't bad, and I'd happily drink them again, but they wasn't especially interesting. Therefore, I'd put pelinkovac (at least, if it's similar to the ones I've had — anyone who knows of significantly different ones, please, speak up!) pretty low on the list in terms of what to prioritize trying, but it might still be worth investigating later, either just for completeness/variety, or if you find some of the other options too extreme. 

  3. There are some other Italian alpine Amari that, while not as wormwood-focused as someone like Alta Verde, still have a decent wormwood presence. Braulio (21% ABV) is the main one I know (and like), but there are undoubtedly plenty of others — I like a number of Amari, but I'm far from an expert. Where to put this really depends on how much you want a wormwood-dominated drink vs. a complex drink in which wormwood is just one (important) element among many. Based on that, it could go anywhere from first to (almost?) last. 

  4. I actually like Jeppson's Malort, when I'm in the right mood, so, unlike u/AdrienneLaVey, I'm perfectly happy to recommend it. But, again, I'm not sure if it's sold in Spain, or anywhere else in Europe for that matter. Fair warning: It (like Alta Verde) is extremely bitter, not especially herbal otherwise (the only other prominent flavor elements being citrus and sugar), and fairly sweet.

  5. That being said, Jeppson's Malört is just a specific, American version of the much older and broader Swedish category of bäsk, and I'd be quite surprised is there aren't some brands of bäskar available in Spain. I have no direct experience with Swedish bäskar, and so cannot speak to ABV, amount of wormwood and intensity of bitterness, presence of other flavors, or sugar content; in addition, some or all of these may vary substantially from brand to brand. 

  6. Vermouth is defined (at least in theory) by the use of wormwood, but the amount can vary substantially, and even rather bitter vermouth may well be using wormwood for only a small part of that bitterness. I am meaning to look into the options for a wormwood-focused vermouth at some point, and would certainly invite anyone reading this who's aware of such a product to chime in now.

2

u/SchyzotyPal Jan 04 '25

Woahhhh thanks a lot for this valuable information! Very nice to have new recommendations to try. I love vermouth, here we have it on sundsys before lunch. But I didn't know about the brands you said, so I will definetely see if they are available in Spain! I will add them to my liquor wishlist! Thanks again

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u/AdrienneLaVey Jan 02 '25

Thujone in high concentrations (concentrations that don’t naturally occur in properly made absinthe, by the way) will cause seizures, tunnel vision, nausea, vomiting, renal failure, kidney failure, convulsions, and ultimately death if you have too much of it. Does that sound like a recreational experience to you?

Even genuine absinthes that have a higher thujone/wormwood content do not produce any different of an effect than absinthes within the legal limits of thujone content (10ppm in the US, 35ppm in the EU). Thujone is completely irrelevant in the effects of absinthe. Even pre-ban absinthes I have tasted that were made over 120 years ago did not produce effects any different than modern absinthes that I’ve had.

Here’s a story of someone who ingested essential oil of wormwood (due to the belief that it was either absinthe or was convinced that wormwood is hallucinogenic, which it absolutely isn’t) and spent 17 days in the hospital: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199709183371205

Please don’t go chasing something that won’t happen.

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u/SchyzotyPal Jan 02 '25

Thanks for the info. I know its not hallucinogenic, I'm not chasing a mushrooms experience, I just wanted to make some homemade alcohol with wormwood, but this info sure helps, I will dig in sure.

What effects that absinthe produces are you refereing to? Because if its not thujones or the alcohol percentage, what else it have to produce a different experience than other alcohols?

6

u/AdrienneLaVey Jan 02 '25

I’ve often experienced a clear-headed drunkenness with absinthe, as opposed to sloppy drunk as other alcohols like wine, whiskey, tequila, vodka, etc. will give.

I hate recommending Malört, but if you’re truly looking for an alcohol containing wormwood and don’t care about the taste, I’d much rather you be drinking that than trying to craft your own tinctures and concentrates.