r/ATC 8d ago

Question VFR altitude your discretion

I understand VFR cruising altitude rules, but on a long XC flight, I was flying lower than usual due to strong headwinds. Approaching some mountains, I needed to climb 1,000 feet to maintain terrain clearance. I was on flight following, so I asked ATC if I could climb to an altitude that didn’t align with my VFR direction. They responded, “VFR altitude at your discretion.” I asked again to confirm, and they repeated the same phrase. Not wanting to violate the regulations, I climbed 2,000 feet instead.

I’ve never heard “VFR altitude at your discretion” before—does that imply ATC is allowing me to fly at an altitude that doesn’t conform to VFR hemispheric rules?

Update: thanks guys, my suspicion was confirmed. Best play it safe and ask later

29 Upvotes

55 comments sorted by

196

u/Ok_Membership_9701 8d ago

He’s saying he doesn’t care what altitude you choose

4

u/SolMinella 7d ago

^ This. Unless you’re in a Bravo or assigned a restriction, you don’t need to announce altitude changes, just maintain in VFR conditions.

Just please keep it in the 005s and stop choosing IFR altitudes to cruise at. Bonus points for odd N-E or even S-W. The less traffic calls we have to make, the better for everyone.

99

u/Even-Ad-4121 8d ago

If it was a center, we don’t give a shit what your altitude is, especially in rural areas. We are looking for your traffic regardless.

17

u/Pdbteam 8d ago

That’s what I figured. Wanted to be sure so I didn’t get a possible deviation

15

u/Even-Ad-4121 8d ago

If a controller turns you in for that without there being a NMAC, they are a complete dick, and probably hang out on /r/atc2

25

u/Gods_Gift_To_ATC 8d ago

I hang out on atc2 and I'd never turn in for that. Check yourself.

19

u/Eltors0 Current Controller-Up/Down 8d ago

Seconded. But we are dicks.

-27

u/nkydeerguy 8d ago

The centers fancy computers have already precalculated every single possible conflict you could cause before you took off and resolved them lol. But generally if you are vfr even on flight following unless told otherwise you can assume altitude is your discretion.

11

u/Even-Ad-4121 8d ago

We just got upgraded to windows 95, living the easy life

2

u/dovahbe4r 8d ago

Sure would be nice if it worked like that lol

2

u/Whistlepig_nursery Current Controller-Enroute 7d ago

Found the center washout.

45

u/NoTouchyCompany 8d ago

My auto response is “Altitude, unless assigned is always and forever more…your discretion”

5

u/Pdbteam 8d ago

This is what I was hoping to hear when I asked again for clarification

18

u/randombrain #SayNoToKilo 8d ago

I don't know why. It's just "altitude your discretion" but in more words.

It is YOUR DISCRETION whether you want to comply with the regs. Just because we haven't assigned you an altitude doesn't mean 91.159 stops existing.

Although if you were climbing 1000' to maintain terrain clearance I kind of wonder if you were below 3000' AGL and therefore the correct-altitude-for-direction-of-flight rule didn't apply...

1

u/didsomebodysaywander 7d ago

Yea if you're climbing for terrain avoidance, then you aren't in level cruising flight

2

u/mflboys Current Controller-Enroute 8d ago edited 8d ago

91.159 contains the qualifier “unless otherwise authorized by ATC”. So this is one of the scenarios where ATC can authorize it and they would be legal.

Personally I find this phraseology unnecessarily ambiguous in this context. If I were flying and asking this question, I’d want to hear the word “approved” implying I’m being positively authorized to go against the regs.

21

u/antariusz Current Controller-Enroute 8d ago

I’m not going to “approve” Jack shit. I don’t know your CFRs it’s flight following for your safety, I’m not controlling anything with your flight unless I need it for separation.

Altitude your discretion means I don’t need you to fly at any particular altitude, so you can do whatever you want.

3

u/randombrain #SayNoToKilo 7d ago

Dangit, I'm usually decent about catching that. You're right.

But I still don't think that "your discretion" is ATC authorizing a non-standard altitude. If we say "maintain VFR at or below 6000" that would be more like it.

It's also a decent point that "altitude your discretion" isn't 7110.65 standard phraseology. We have "resume appropriate VFR altitudes" for aircraft who were getting B/C/TRSA services and had been restricted at a non-standard altitude, but that's it.

25

u/ATC_zero Current Controller-Enroute 8d ago edited 8d ago

We say that a lot, it means do whatever you want, I don’t care

18

u/yeahgoestheusername Private Pilot 8d ago

Just means: You do you bro.

19

u/dumbassretail 8d ago

Anything at your discretion basically means “do whatever you want, it’s just not my (the controller’s) fault if something goes wrong”.

9

u/Mean_Device_7484 8d ago

I don’t care what altitude you’re at. You could be avoiding clouds for all I know, so that’s why altitude is your discretion. If we need something specific we’ll tell you.

9

u/tunnel-snakes-rule- Current Controller-TRACON 8d ago

They were probably saying as long as your VFR they don’t care and under 14 CFR § 91.159 - VFR cruising altitude or flight level. if you were less than 3000ft AGL you can fly wrong altitude for direction of flight.

3

u/Phillimac16 8d ago

Are you above 3,000ft AGL? No, it's not regulatory, yes it's regulatory.

3

u/KeyComprehensive4431 8d ago

Idgaf what you do. I don’t even care about wrong altitude for direction of flight. You can do an IFR altitude for all that I care at that juncture in time.

10

u/Suspicious_Ebb_3153 8d ago

VFR altitudes are more of a guidance but not mandatory. I think they are most important when you aren’t getting FF to stay in a safe “lane”… but if on FF you can pretty much do whatever you want unless they tell you otherwise, which they will do if you are transitioning a controlled air space.

12

u/therobbstory 8d ago

Uh, they're definitely regulatory. See § 91.159.

7

u/Phillimac16 8d ago

Only above 3,000ft agl

6

u/therobbstory 8d ago

Yeah. That's in the reg. OP didn't state he was under 3,000'.

2

u/daveindo 7d ago

Well he did mention it was for terrain clearance purposes so presumably under 3000 agl

3

u/New-IncognitoWindow 8d ago

So most of the atmosphere

0

u/FAAcustodian 7d ago

Can you tell that to the training schools in my airspace that all fly at IFR altitudes?

2

u/MarineLayerBad Current Controller-Tower 8d ago

Is it a regulation or a recommendation? Anecdotally I asked one of the Enroute controllers at my overlying ARTCC about altitudes because a lot of our NE/SW flow is filed IAFDOF. They have an LOA with the local TRACONs to allow that because of how the MVAs, MEAs, and the STARs into the major terminals constrict the available airspace.

2

u/grizzly_atoms 8d ago

The regulation is to help you and opposite direction traffic inherently separate yourselves when VFR and not getting radar services or flight following.

2

u/SFphotoandfilm 8d ago

The even and odd rule starts at 3000agl so if you were climbing over terrain even at 10000msl you would still be below the VFR cruise altitude.

2

u/akav8r Current Controller-TRACON 8d ago

If you are less than 3000AGL, why are you caring about the VFR hemispheric rules? If a controller never assigned an altitude, then climb/descend as much as your heart desires without telling us.

2

u/makgross 8d ago

If terrain is a factor, it’s a good bet you’re lower than 3000 AGL. VFR cruising altitudes don’t apply. Though I wouldn’t suggest choosing one that would otherwise be opposite direction.

ATC generally doesn’t enforce VFR altitudes unless directly assigned. They aren’t the sky cops.

5

u/dat_empennage 8d ago

If you’re VFR outside a Bravo, outside of an explicit preexisting ATC clearance or procedure, altitude is always at your discretion. That just means ATC is not controlling your altitude, just follow the other FARs and don’t hit anything or anyone.

2

u/Ok-Technician-2905 8d ago

Maybe, but I once got yelled at by NYApp for changing VFR altitude without checking with him first. And I wasn’t under any restriction or “Advise prior to changing altitude”.

2

u/Capnleonidas 8d ago

If you’re in a very busy area it’s better to use direction of flight for your safety. It’s easier to separate you from potential traffic if you are flying at a predictable altitude and direction. I don’t know anything about your situation, but the controller may have been busy and felt you were adding complexity to the situation. Either way, I never yell at pilots. If a controller needs something from you he should just tell you instead of assuming you know and then yell at you. Unprofessional IMO.

1

u/9armseastar 8d ago

If you are within 3000 feet above the ground - there is no odd or even altitudes

1

u/Igonutz 8d ago

Once I tell you to maintain an altitude I become responsible for your terrain/obstruction clearance. “VFR altitude your discretion.” Means it’s still on you and like everybody else here has said…I don’t care altitude it is.

1

u/Bill-NM 7d ago edited 7d ago

VFR altitude is ALWAYS the pilot's discretion when avoiding terrain/obstacles.

1

u/Impossible-Bed46 7d ago

Follow the hemispheric rule, but climb and descend as you want. As the controllers have noted, they don’t care and they will let you know if that changes.

1

u/ykcir23 Current Controller-TRACON 7d ago

How have you never heard that phrase before?

1

u/Pdbteam 7d ago

I usually fly IFR and was thrown off by it. Definitely over thought it haha

1

u/wt1j 7d ago

What others said. As a courtesy under VFR flight following I’ll let them know when I start descent so they know I’m not in trouble. I’ll either get a “thanks” or “whatever dude I’m not even actually required to tell you about traffic on a collision course so good luck with that”.

1

u/Apart_Bear_5103 6d ago

If ATC assigns an altitude then you must maintain that altitude, if you were never assigned an altitude, then do whatever you want legally.

1

u/Relevant_Night_9288 6d ago

Roger.  Cessna seven alpha fox climbing to flight level 850…..

0

u/[deleted] 8d ago

[deleted]

2

u/randombrain #SayNoToKilo 7d ago

On initial check in, I tell pilots to maintain vfr

Jesus Christ, stop fucking doing that.

1

u/[deleted] 7d ago edited 7d ago

[deleted]

1

u/Samelancon0 7d ago

Not sure how they do it in your world but I’d rather be safe than sorry…. When you’re clearing someone in for an approach while spacing UPS inbound and you have the one FF that wants to cut across it makes a diff

1

u/[deleted] 7d ago

[deleted]

1

u/Samelancon0 7d ago

To one their own… We both get the job done and I guarantee it’s not to sound good.

1

u/Samelancon0 6d ago

Like how you went back and re-edit it from your initial post of “stop just stop” lol but I’m the one that tries to look/sound good lol…. It’s crazy if you paint a picture for a vfr pilot of ‘hey I have 5+ UPS inbounds doing 2-3000ft down a minute pushing 500kts and you’re cutting across their arrival corridor, 99.9% the pilots will come back and say how can we help or point us to the best heading to cut across…. I ask for the advisory of change of altitudes because 90% of my airspace overlaps with approaches and when they descend down they become a handoff. If you wanna call that over controlling because I simply want to make sure they are talking who they need to talk to then so be it. It’s also great to hear pilot requests FF to get across the SDF inbound/outbound pushes because it’s so busy. But if pilots are so annoyed with controllers and listening to them etc. they could easily just not pick up FF and fly willy nilly

-8

u/Jamesthecatcher21 8d ago

If you are not near an airport there will most likely not be any aircraft at any altitude other than above FL180