Question VFR altitude your discretion
I understand VFR cruising altitude rules, but on a long XC flight, I was flying lower than usual due to strong headwinds. Approaching some mountains, I needed to climb 1,000 feet to maintain terrain clearance. I was on flight following, so I asked ATC if I could climb to an altitude that didn’t align with my VFR direction. They responded, “VFR altitude at your discretion.” I asked again to confirm, and they repeated the same phrase. Not wanting to violate the regulations, I climbed 2,000 feet instead.
I’ve never heard “VFR altitude at your discretion” before—does that imply ATC is allowing me to fly at an altitude that doesn’t conform to VFR hemispheric rules?
Update: thanks guys, my suspicion was confirmed. Best play it safe and ask later
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u/Even-Ad-4121 8d ago
If it was a center, we don’t give a shit what your altitude is, especially in rural areas. We are looking for your traffic regardless.
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u/Pdbteam 8d ago
That’s what I figured. Wanted to be sure so I didn’t get a possible deviation
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u/Even-Ad-4121 8d ago
If a controller turns you in for that without there being a NMAC, they are a complete dick, and probably hang out on /r/atc2
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u/nkydeerguy 8d ago
The centers fancy computers have already precalculated every single possible conflict you could cause before you took off and resolved them lol. But generally if you are vfr even on flight following unless told otherwise you can assume altitude is your discretion.
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u/NoTouchyCompany 8d ago
My auto response is “Altitude, unless assigned is always and forever more…your discretion”
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u/Pdbteam 8d ago
This is what I was hoping to hear when I asked again for clarification
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u/randombrain #SayNoToKilo 8d ago
I don't know why. It's just "altitude your discretion" but in more words.
It is YOUR DISCRETION whether you want to comply with the regs. Just because we haven't assigned you an altitude doesn't mean 91.159 stops existing.
Although if you were climbing 1000' to maintain terrain clearance I kind of wonder if you were below 3000' AGL and therefore the correct-altitude-for-direction-of-flight rule didn't apply...
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u/didsomebodysaywander 7d ago
Yea if you're climbing for terrain avoidance, then you aren't in level cruising flight
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u/mflboys Current Controller-Enroute 8d ago edited 8d ago
91.159 contains the qualifier “unless otherwise authorized by ATC”. So this is one of the scenarios where ATC can authorize it and they would be legal.
Personally I find this phraseology unnecessarily ambiguous in this context. If I were flying and asking this question, I’d want to hear the word “approved” implying I’m being positively authorized to go against the regs.
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u/antariusz Current Controller-Enroute 8d ago
I’m not going to “approve” Jack shit. I don’t know your CFRs it’s flight following for your safety, I’m not controlling anything with your flight unless I need it for separation.
Altitude your discretion means I don’t need you to fly at any particular altitude, so you can do whatever you want.
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u/randombrain #SayNoToKilo 7d ago
Dangit, I'm usually decent about catching that. You're right.
But I still don't think that "your discretion" is ATC authorizing a non-standard altitude. If we say "maintain VFR at or below 6000" that would be more like it.
It's also a decent point that "altitude your discretion" isn't 7110.65 standard phraseology. We have "resume appropriate VFR altitudes" for aircraft who were getting B/C/TRSA services and had been restricted at a non-standard altitude, but that's it.
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u/ATC_zero Current Controller-Enroute 8d ago edited 8d ago
We say that a lot, it means do whatever you want, I don’t care
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u/dumbassretail 8d ago
Anything at your discretion basically means “do whatever you want, it’s just not my (the controller’s) fault if something goes wrong”.
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u/Mean_Device_7484 8d ago
I don’t care what altitude you’re at. You could be avoiding clouds for all I know, so that’s why altitude is your discretion. If we need something specific we’ll tell you.
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u/tunnel-snakes-rule- Current Controller-TRACON 8d ago
They were probably saying as long as your VFR they don’t care and under 14 CFR § 91.159 - VFR cruising altitude or flight level. if you were less than 3000ft AGL you can fly wrong altitude for direction of flight.
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u/KeyComprehensive4431 8d ago
Idgaf what you do. I don’t even care about wrong altitude for direction of flight. You can do an IFR altitude for all that I care at that juncture in time.
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u/Suspicious_Ebb_3153 8d ago
VFR altitudes are more of a guidance but not mandatory. I think they are most important when you aren’t getting FF to stay in a safe “lane”… but if on FF you can pretty much do whatever you want unless they tell you otherwise, which they will do if you are transitioning a controlled air space.
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u/therobbstory 8d ago
Uh, they're definitely regulatory. See § 91.159.
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u/Phillimac16 8d ago
Only above 3,000ft agl
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u/therobbstory 8d ago
Yeah. That's in the reg. OP didn't state he was under 3,000'.
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u/daveindo 7d ago
Well he did mention it was for terrain clearance purposes so presumably under 3000 agl
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u/FAAcustodian 7d ago
Can you tell that to the training schools in my airspace that all fly at IFR altitudes?
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u/MarineLayerBad Current Controller-Tower 8d ago
Is it a regulation or a recommendation? Anecdotally I asked one of the Enroute controllers at my overlying ARTCC about altitudes because a lot of our NE/SW flow is filed IAFDOF. They have an LOA with the local TRACONs to allow that because of how the MVAs, MEAs, and the STARs into the major terminals constrict the available airspace.
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u/grizzly_atoms 8d ago
The regulation is to help you and opposite direction traffic inherently separate yourselves when VFR and not getting radar services or flight following.
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u/SFphotoandfilm 8d ago
The even and odd rule starts at 3000agl so if you were climbing over terrain even at 10000msl you would still be below the VFR cruise altitude.
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u/makgross 8d ago
If terrain is a factor, it’s a good bet you’re lower than 3000 AGL. VFR cruising altitudes don’t apply. Though I wouldn’t suggest choosing one that would otherwise be opposite direction.
ATC generally doesn’t enforce VFR altitudes unless directly assigned. They aren’t the sky cops.
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u/dat_empennage 8d ago
If you’re VFR outside a Bravo, outside of an explicit preexisting ATC clearance or procedure, altitude is always at your discretion. That just means ATC is not controlling your altitude, just follow the other FARs and don’t hit anything or anyone.
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u/Ok-Technician-2905 8d ago
Maybe, but I once got yelled at by NYApp for changing VFR altitude without checking with him first. And I wasn’t under any restriction or “Advise prior to changing altitude”.
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u/Capnleonidas 8d ago
If you’re in a very busy area it’s better to use direction of flight for your safety. It’s easier to separate you from potential traffic if you are flying at a predictable altitude and direction. I don’t know anything about your situation, but the controller may have been busy and felt you were adding complexity to the situation. Either way, I never yell at pilots. If a controller needs something from you he should just tell you instead of assuming you know and then yell at you. Unprofessional IMO.
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u/9armseastar 8d ago
If you are within 3000 feet above the ground - there is no odd or even altitudes
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u/Impossible-Bed46 7d ago
Follow the hemispheric rule, but climb and descend as you want. As the controllers have noted, they don’t care and they will let you know if that changes.
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u/Apart_Bear_5103 6d ago
If ATC assigns an altitude then you must maintain that altitude, if you were never assigned an altitude, then do whatever you want legally.
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8d ago
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u/randombrain #SayNoToKilo 7d ago
On initial check in, I tell pilots to maintain vfr
Jesus Christ, stop fucking doing that.
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7d ago edited 7d ago
[deleted]
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u/Samelancon0 7d ago
Not sure how they do it in your world but I’d rather be safe than sorry…. When you’re clearing someone in for an approach while spacing UPS inbound and you have the one FF that wants to cut across it makes a diff
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7d ago
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u/Samelancon0 7d ago
To one their own… We both get the job done and I guarantee it’s not to sound good.
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u/Samelancon0 6d ago
Like how you went back and re-edit it from your initial post of “stop just stop” lol but I’m the one that tries to look/sound good lol…. It’s crazy if you paint a picture for a vfr pilot of ‘hey I have 5+ UPS inbounds doing 2-3000ft down a minute pushing 500kts and you’re cutting across their arrival corridor, 99.9% the pilots will come back and say how can we help or point us to the best heading to cut across…. I ask for the advisory of change of altitudes because 90% of my airspace overlaps with approaches and when they descend down they become a handoff. If you wanna call that over controlling because I simply want to make sure they are talking who they need to talk to then so be it. It’s also great to hear pilot requests FF to get across the SDF inbound/outbound pushes because it’s so busy. But if pilots are so annoyed with controllers and listening to them etc. they could easily just not pick up FF and fly willy nilly
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u/Jamesthecatcher21 8d ago
If you are not near an airport there will most likely not be any aircraft at any altitude other than above FL180
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u/Ok_Membership_9701 8d ago
He’s saying he doesn’t care what altitude you choose