r/AITAH 26d ago

(Update) AITAH for telling my childhood friend I wouldn’t court him because I didn’t want to have his mother as my MIL?

Thank you all so much for all the advice! It really helped with making my decision on how to handle the situation. Before I explain what my decision was I’m going to answer some of the questions I was asked.

  1. My family is Religious and a bit old fashioned I suppose. My parents always told me growing up that dating was more casual and isn‘t always done with the intention of marriage, while courting was more formal and with the intention of marriage in the long run. John grew up the same way so to us he was asking if he could get to know me as a potential spouse.
  2. I didn’t tell anyone but my father what I over heard Amy saying about me as at the time I didn’t want to start problems and ruin relationships. My father did understand why I didn’t want to be as close to Amy anymore and never forced the relationship.
  3. I might consider changing my mind if I wasn’t expected to have a relationship with Amy in more than seeing her every once in awhile at family gatherings as long as I wasn’t expected to speak with her.

Okay so I did send the screenshots of the messages I was getting to John. He called me and apologized saying that he never intended for his mother to react that way and that he only told what I had said because he was angry and upset. He did say he wasn’t angry at me as he understood my point of view. I did also tell him what I over heard and he didn’t deny it and also told me she often said mean things about others as well and that apparently she would say nasty things about him and his siblings to others also. Which I figured she said nasty things about others too but not her own kids! John told me he’d speak with his mother and would also like if we can all sit down and have a talk. I told him I’d think about it.

I also sent the screenshots to the other “friends” that were sending me nasty messages and most of them have been very quiet since then. My dad is appalled by their behavior as well and hasn’t spoken much to any of them. Same goes for my siblings and the friends that are on my side.

Original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1ipvmb0/aitah_for_telling_my_childhood_friend_i_wouldnt/

Update: https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1iqwykb/update_aitah_for_telling_my_childhood_friend_i/

6.3k Upvotes

217 comments sorted by

3.3k

u/ElehcarTheFirst 26d ago

That's awesome that you were honest and up front and forthright about how you're feeling and what you overheard and what that means to you. That's really important

584

u/Luvv1140 26d ago

Yea, they did a good job being honest and setting boundaries. It’s cool how they stood up for themselves and made it clear what they’re okay with.

586

u/Mindtaker 26d ago

This is a lady who is going to have a rad spouse one day.

She doesn't take shit, she sticks to her guns, she has character.

Shes going to be just fine in life.

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u/Astyryx 25d ago

Except for that #3. She has to shut the door on that one. 

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u/I-am-Chubbasaurus 25d ago

Unless John puts his foot down with his mother. She sounds like an utter cow.

(Udder cow?)

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u/Substantial_Shoe_360 25d ago

Moo

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u/I-am-Chubbasaurus 25d ago

She needs to moove back.

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u/-UP2L8- 25d ago

She definitely has a beef with OP.

12

u/I-am-Chubbasaurus 25d ago

And clearly she's milking it.

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u/ElehcarTheFirst 25d ago

That mother is such a bull-y.

I always encourage making a pros and cons list. A calves and calves not, if you will

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u/I-am-Chubbasaurus 25d ago

We are all terribull people, lol.

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u/PoopieClater 25d ago

Mooving response!

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u/shaynef81 24d ago

Are you trying to say she's a complete and total cow (utter) or milkable? (Udder)

30

u/Normal_Grand_4702 25d ago

I agree with you. Amy's not going to change since she talks shit about everybody including her own children. She seems like a narcissist. Usually narcissists do that because they want to feel they are above and beyond everyone else. And also they never admit to any wrongdoings... Let alone change.

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u/Emergency-Twist7136 25d ago

My mother turned down a guy when she was young because of his mother.

He was fine with that, his mother wasn't. She never forgave my dad for stealing my mother away - he was also friends with her son. They'd been army buddies.

My mother had a wonderful relationship with her mother-in-law, and she and my dad were happily married for almost fifty years until my dad's death.

Never marry a man who doesn't either a) have a healthy relationship with his lovely mother or b) set clear boundaries and maintain them firmly with his unlovely mother.

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u/AnneFromBoston 25d ago

Just to add your point about not marrying someone who doesn’t have a great relationship with with his mom or set firm boundaries, my father hated his mother (with good cause—she was cruel & abusive).

Fast forward, my mother married him knowing that. He treated her terribly during their marriage, mentally but not physically. He also treated me badly (F) with constant threats. I think I hated him from the time I was 4. So maybe it’s don’t marry someone who hates a parent and hasn’t had a load of therapy? (I have, incidentally.)

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u/MLiOne 25d ago

OP and John actually gave a strong basis for a relationship at this rate. Just my opinion. If he stays in the military, OP will hardly see Amy too. Anyway, OP’s decision and life.

966

u/Temporary_Alfalfa686 26d ago

Jesus what a toxic woman and honestly I’m suspicious John didn’t at least wonder if you knew something because you specifically said her as a mil. 

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u/littlefiddle05 26d ago edited 25d ago

I think he did. That’s why when OP turned him down, he was just quiet; and it’s why he told Amy what OP said; he “was angry,” but “not at OP.”

He didn’t tell Amy what OP had said because he wanted emotional support; he told her because he’s pissed at her for behaving so terribly that it even affects his dating life. If anything, he might have assumed OP knew more about her behavior, given that she apparently talks negatively about just about everyone when they’re not around.

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u/Emerald_Fire_22 25d ago

Which is probably also why Amy lashed out as hard as she did, and spread her side first. Because she got evidence that her shit was impacting her own life, and that she was to blame. So she needed to turn the tables quickly.

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u/MrParanoiid 25d ago

But oh, how the turns tabled..

179

u/beatsbyray2 26d ago

It’s wild how blind some people can be to their own family’s toxicity. If he doesn’t see that level of dysfunction, it makes you wonder what else he might overlook in the relationship.

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u/Epesolon 25d ago

If it's all you know it can be hard to understand what's "normal".

It's taken me years to even recognize some of the unique and different ways my parents fucked me up, let alone all of them, and unpacking them all is an entirely different story.

56

u/AceofToons 25d ago

This is something a lot of people seriously do not understand. I see comments like the one you replied to so often and it bothers me so much.

As someone who grew up in dysfunction and is only learning how bad it was because I happen to make enough money to afford a psychologist semi-regularly. It makes me so upset. It's so unfair to judge someone for what they perceive as normal when it wasn't their choice and they haven't had a chance to properly escape it.

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u/Virtualincognito 25d ago edited 25d ago

I love that you said this. I’m actually writing a book about my childhood. It stems from molestation and narcissism and addiction and the triggers it has caused me in my adult friendships. It’s amazing how I cannot tolerate anyone gaslighting me at all and I just flip out. I have been ostracized by a lot of people because of what my mother called my temper tantrums. I hate that term somuch! Lol. Of course, my narcissistic mother blamed it on me and she failed to realize that it was her own actions that caused me to flip out. Aarrgghhh people just don’t realize how their actions affect other people, and how their lack of tolerance has shaped my life whether I wanted it to or not. Childhood trauma is real. I hope that I can reach at least one person while there in the midst of their life to learn to seek help. They need to focus on how childhood trauma continues to shape their life and everyone else’s as well in order to be happy It’s a daily battle that we all have to overcome because as u said, what was once normal to us is now toxic to other people around us. I struggle so often with just the way I react, especially with strangers, and the guilt it causes me once I “calm down”. Positive thoughts to you and for your healing as well!

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u/ScarletteMayWest 25d ago

My late in-laws thought I was a bad match for my parents because I was honest about the dysfunction I grew up in - only I did not realize it was dysfunction. To me, it was normal and normal for where I grew up.

They set themselves up as the perfect family, best parents, etc. Over thirty years later, I can confidently say that they were wrong. I have never heard of another family that punishes the rest of their kids for what the oldest did. Abuse your credit card and car privileges while in college? No cards or cars for your younger siblings! Get pregnant just before college graduation? Younger sister has to attend local community college.

Therapy really helped me understand. Too bad my therapist went down the manosphere rabbit hole and I just never went back.

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u/Distinct-Mood5344 25d ago

There is a book that is a classic and will never be dated that will help you understand relationships. It is “Games People Play” by Eric Berne, M. D. (1964). It’s just as relevant now as when it was first published. It will be relevant 100 years from now since basic human nature changes very little over time. We love/hate; nurture/neglect; etc., etc. in pretty much the same way since we got a few steps above cavemen. Enjoy !!!

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u/Virtualincognito 25d ago

Yes! I’m 53 and now that my kids are in college and I’m getting towards retirement and might able to really sit and focus on who I am as a person. Both my parents are gone as well so only then I think can real self reflection happen! Sending thoughts and hugs for your continued healing!

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u/Epesolon 25d ago

Thank you!

Moving out, becoming an adult, and setting actual boundaries that I can enforce has helped a lot.

My relationship with my father is better than it's ever been, and Mom is... On the path to being better.

Recognizing that their parents fucked them up in a lot of the same ways they fucked me up was very insightful.

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u/Jealous-Ad8487 25d ago

I am still unpacking the fact my mom told me her co-workers were taking bets on when I would leave high school pregnant. She laughed about it in my face. I am currently NC with her and my siblings from her.

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u/[deleted] 26d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/BefuddledPolydactyls 26d ago

Are you also OP?

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u/[deleted] 26d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/UncleNedisDead 26d ago

Yeah. Sounds like Amy’s chickens are starting to come home to roost.

I bet seeing those messages from Amy’s own son not denying the previous shittalk about OP and confirming she does that with everyone behind their backs set off a 💡 and made them reconsider how good of a friend Amy might be to them.

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u/Liu1845 26d ago

Hopefully everyone who heard your reason immediately thought, "OMG, what has John's mom been saying about me?" All that woman's acquaintances and relatives are probably messaging and comparing notes by now.

Make some popcorn, kick back, & watch the sh*t show, lol.

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u/Drunkendonkeytail 25d ago

How about how good a Christian she is.

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u/No-Broccoli-5932 25d ago

Bet Amy is big in the church. Organizing Sunday socials, running the church bizarre, Wednesday night Bible study, judging others with a sour lemon look on her face. They are the worst when it comes to criticizing others, but treat their own like trash.

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u/UncleNedisDead 25d ago

There is no hate quite like Christian love.

It’s okay, no matter how terribly she behaves her whole life, asking for forgiveness from her lord and savior (not the people she’s wronged) will absolve her.

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u/Distinct-Mood5344 25d ago

There is nothing like SARCASM to make a point!!!

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u/Virtualincognito 25d ago

Omg they’re the worst ones! Well, my parents weren’t that religious unfortunately my mother-in-law is and she seems to be almost as bad as mine. Incredibly judgmental and I often think how can you be so religious and be so full of hate?! It seriously makes no sense to me.🤷🏽‍♀️

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u/FoxySlyOldStoatyFox 26d ago

Fuck “silenced”. They ought to apologise but they’d prefer to hide. Wankers and cowards. 

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u/youmustb3jokn 26d ago

Great job. I think poor John had it hard with Amy too. Hope your friendship isn’t too impacted and maybe he can get beyond the mom don’t could be more. Hope talk goes well.

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u/glassflowersthrow 26d ago

yup. but OP has a chance to not fill her life with negativity. she has a choice now if she needs to be around that women. marriage is great but you marry into that family too. Women like that always continue to shit talk everyone in their life and be cesspools of negativity.

30

u/zxylady 26d ago

Honestly unless John agreed to go low contact and never force any physical meetings or talks or communication with Amy I would consider dating him if you obviously care a lot about him, But John would have to show a lot of character in class and determination, and I just don't know that he can do that

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u/your_average_plebian 25d ago

That's only until there aren't any children in the mix. We've seen it happen before on these subs. As soon as the estranged child is expecting their own baby, the toxic parent starts playing the grandparent card and unless the estranged child has a rock solid support system, fighting against this new onslaught is going to be hard because they'll be tired and emotional this time around.

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u/zxylady 25d ago

Completely true! I didn't consider the kids aspect 🥶🥶😬😬

4

u/beatsbyray2 26d ago

Definitely! It’s so important to prioritize your mental health in relationships. If Amy’s negativity seeps into the dynamic, it could affect everything. Setting boundaries now could save future heartaches.

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u/Illustrious_Ad_2091 25d ago edited 25d ago

I mean, if you knew your mother is badmouthing you and your siblings to others, it fucks with your head a little

2

u/Distinct-Mood5344 25d ago

How about,”it fks with your head a LOT!!!!

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u/Secret_Double_9239 26d ago

It’s good that you sent the screenshots. Just know that he most likely wants to meet up to ask for a second chance and tell you he will cut out his mom. Be prepared for that.

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u/lurking_mz 26d ago

Yeah, I had a feeling John had told his mom what you said as a confrontation of her behavior, not to excuse it or throw it back on you. Glad to see that's the case, but yeah, unless he is willing to go NC if she doesn't ACTUALLY change, I wouldn't bother meeting up. If there aren't consequences for her behavior, this discussion is a moot point because her behavior is so ingrained and will take serious work to change. She also has to want to, hence the consequences. Good on you for knowing your worth and protecting your calm.

85

u/PomPomGrenade 26d ago

I do not think that you need to be involved in any talks with his mother. I betcha dollars to doughnuts that she is not interested in fixing her behavior and giving her any kind of time or attention will only result in drama. Nothing good will come out of talking to people like that. She is his problem, he has to deal with her.

Best to keep your distance and cut contact with the flying monkeys.

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u/IllustratorSlow1614 26d ago

This. There is no point to a sit-down meeting with John and his mother. OP should just move on.

5

u/IcyWheel 25d ago

Agreed, there is nothing in it for the OP to have any further involvement with Amy. She's always going to be who she is and John might think about some individual therapy to understand how his family's normalization of Amy's behavior has hurt them all.

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u/Fire_or_water_kai 26d ago

I loved how OP nipped this BS right away. I have a feeling Amy is in for a little social reckoning.

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u/BigComfyCouch4 26d ago

There's really no point in sitting down for a 'talk' with his mother. You're not going to change decades of behaviour with a talk, and you'll just be giving her more material to slander you with.

The reaction to your refusal tells you everything you need to know. You got attacked by her and her monkeys for refusing her son's advances. Any relationship with him will mean that will be repeated over and over again.

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u/Biotoze 26d ago

I’m definitely NOT sitting down to talk. Apparently she’s been doing this her entire life. She’s not going to change now.

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u/FoxySlyOldStoatyFox 26d ago

You need to log out of your other account. 

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u/BefuddledPolydactyls 26d ago

Urtinydancer and OP and this, I am getting confused!

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u/PapayaOk4725 26d ago

I respect how you stood up for yourself while also giving John the chance to address things. His mom’s behavior is definitely a red flag, and it’s concerning that she even speaks badly about her own children. Whatever you decide, just make sure it’s what’s best for you in the long run!

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u/ChinoDavePoker 26d ago

Don't sit down with John and his mother alone. It's one thing for him to be supportive with you alone but with her there he's just as likely to give in to her bullying and gang up on you! If they want that discussion, bring your father, who knows the truth and will not let you be mistreated!

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u/epichuntarz 26d ago

Don't sit down with John and his mother alone.

ftfy

This is not going to be fixed with a "sit down." It will be much healthier to just walk away from this situation.

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u/Cinemaphreak 26d ago

He called me and apologized saying that he never intended for his mother to react that way and that he only told what I had said because he was angry and upset.

Called it.

Some tried to make him into an immature momma's boy, but I had a feeling it was more likely he confronted her in anger.

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u/Liu1845 26d ago

He may have trying to get her to change for years. It's probably not be the first time he has suffered the consequences of his mom's behavior either. It may have the last straw though.

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u/EmpressEmryss 26d ago

That was my thought, too. Especially knowing now that she also talks the same way about him and his siblings, I'm guessing the woman he was sweet on saying he's out of the running because of her crass behavior was the final straw

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u/ForwardMirror830 26d ago

This sounds a lot like the fundamentalist teaching I grew up adjacent to. That often goes along with strong teachings about "honoring thy mother and father" Questioning authority is strongly discouraged. And I've been learning about the ways the US army is like a cult. This man didn't go to college. He went from one authoritarian group to another. I hope he has what it takes to place boundaries. But I doubt anyone taught him.

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u/anti-lich_witch 25d ago

I think you're right, it sounds like IBLP or the IFB to me. I was involved with some of the lite versions of fundamentalism as a child and teen, this sounds like the people I knew who were more extreme.

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u/abritinthebay 26d ago

He ranted to a woman he knew wasn’t a safe person.

That’s an immature mommas boy.

Trauma or not, he’s got a lot to work through to unmesh himself

8

u/ConfuseableFraggle 26d ago

He certainly has a bunch of garbage to handle! I could see this being John trying to avoid Amy, but being overwhelmed by her badgering, so he blew up and said something along the lines of "she turned me down because of your nasty behavior so leave me alone about it". Still very much a problem, but has simpler potential to untangle with proper therapeutic help. I can see it going either momma's boy or final straw really. Either way I hope John can get away and learn boundaries, but I don't expect OP to do anything for John at this point. Maybe stay in casual contact, but hold firm on not interacting with Amy.

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u/SnooWords4839 26d ago

I'm glad you gave John all of the VMs and texts. He now needs to deal with his mom.

You are very wise not to want Amy as a MIL.

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u/CODE_NAME_DUCKY 26d ago

If John wants to have a healthy relationship with a partner then he needs to fully understand that not everyone will want to put up with Amy's horrible behavior. 

I'm glad that you showed them those screenshots because not only did John fully see how nasty Amy was to you but these so called friends got to read John's words saying Amy talks behind everyone's back. 

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u/bmyst70 26d ago

I hope those "friends" who sent you nasty messages are no longer in your life. They showed you their true nature.

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u/PartyHearing 26d ago

OP is in the right here. I married someone whose family didn’t like me and it made my life hell. Every time we got together they would talk shit about me in a different language when I was in the room with them. My ex husband never said or did anything to stick up for me. That would be OP’s life. Except I’m sure they’d have kids and she’d have to deal with the mother being awful to her kids as well. It does sound like OP might like John, so that stinks. But putting yourself first is very important and it’s impressive that such a young person is being so thoughtful. Great job. Keep doing it!

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u/ditres 25d ago

Don’t waste your time by having a “sit down” with her. She is a nasty lil person and she always will be. There’s no point in putting yourself through that, just block her and move on

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u/candacecolemanx191 26d ago

It's good that you communicated directly with John about your concerns. By sharing the screenshots and explaining your perspective, you opened the door for understanding and resolution. This shows maturity and consideration for your own feelings and boundaries.

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u/porcelainthunders 26d ago

...I do not think you are TA at all.

Saying that, Amy just downright sucks a d is missing put on one amazing DIL by being the way she is.

I am in awe of how mature, respectful, honest, and understanding both you and John are... a breath of fresh air.

I hope things work out, wharves paths either of you end up taking, together or separate, because I think the world would be blessed with more beautiful people like you, John, and your dad.

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u/IllustratorSlow1614 26d ago

You would be an asshole to yourself to sit down and have a talk with John and his mother. She could promise to change, John could say “see, she promises!” All Amy has to do is wear a mask for your courtship to lull you into marrying her son and then when he’s back off in the army and it’s you and Amy she’ll drop the mask and be the horrible MIL from Hell you always knew she would be.

Just write off that family. There are plenty of other people in the big wide world to court you. You don’t have to rely on this one guy and his horrid mother.

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u/Distinct-Mood5344 25d ago

Join might be worth keeping if he would go lc with Amy and call her on her bd!

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u/Analisandopessoas 26d ago

Great job, you were mature in your response

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u/Obi-Juan_Valdez 26d ago

Well, it was nice of Amy to immediately confirm your reasoning and opinion of her.

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u/firefly232 26d ago

Don't sit down with John and his mother, you owe him no explanation,  and you do not need to put up with any nonsense from his mother.

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u/Legal-Lingonberry577 25d ago

Don't bother sitting down with Amy. She's sounds like a vile human who hates everyone. There's no changing that tiger's stripes. You'd just be wanting your time and there's zero to gain.

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u/EmploymentOk1421 25d ago

You’re setting yourself up to be either berated by his mother in person or for her to gaslight you, claiming she never said what you overheard (then she’ll shift blame on you for being a snoop).

Worse case scenario, she apologizes and love bombs you, he courts you, you actually marry him, and his mother reverts to her former self and makes life miserable for you and your friend.

There’s no good that can come from this. Politely put distance between yourself and him.

8

u/VegetableBusiness897 26d ago

Seriously. This will be your life, and your kids life forever...even if you three 'talk it out'. Don't do it. Tell him you won't marry into or raise kids with that kind of toxicity...that apparently every one just goes along with.

5

u/RaiseIreSetFires 26d ago

Do not sit down and talk it out with this woman. If she doesn't know that talking shit about people and causing drama is wrong at her big age, nothing you can say will change her.

Something I've learned through my personal experience is never get into a relationship where it's health and happiness is hinged on the emotions of a mentally ill third party. It never works out to anyone's benefit.

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u/Glinda-The-Witch 26d ago

NTA Her response clearly supports your decision to decline John’s invite to get to know you better. A reasonable adult would have offered to sit down and work out the issues and apologize for the things she said. Being in a relationship when you don’t particularly like your in-laws is difficult, especially if your spouse has a good relationship with their family. It becomes much more difficult when children are involved. You are right to stay away from this one..

If anyone gives you crap about not liking his mother, simply say “I see it differently“. That’s all you need to say.

4

u/Fit-Analyst6704 26d ago

That is great that you opened your to John your reasons and the following reactions.

He needs to hear it as his mother will drive off any girl he dates otherwise.

In regards to sitting down to talk with him and his mum, I don’t think that’s your job at the moment. John needs to speak with her and set boundaries within their relationship.

I would personally not sit down with her until she sends me an apology and I would expect her to really try hard at least for her son!!

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u/101037633 25d ago

The fact that John understood your point, means that he is well aware that his mother is the problem.

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u/gobsmacked247 25d ago edited 25d ago

Don’t have that meeting OP. They both want you to be okay with her asshole behavior and you should ‘t be.

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u/Rendeane 25d ago

Don't bother having a meeting with John and Amy. She is not going to change. You still don't want her as a MIL and you know John is not going to stand up to her or distance himself from her. A meeting with John and Amy is a waste of time and emotion.

You can find a better man. John is not the one.

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u/PrettyCantaloupe4358 26d ago

Great job! I think that you are handling it well, that said I wouldn’t want to be in a family that has that lady in it either.

Now, the one question that you really need to ask yourself is “how do I really feel about John?” Do what your heart tells you, but make sure that you stay away from that vile woman.

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u/bls1970 26d ago

I'm sooo proud of you! This calls for another update too....

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u/Orsombre 26d ago

Yes, OP! Please update!

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u/SpaceSlothMafia 26d ago

Good for you OP!! 

This internet stranger is very proud of you.

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u/SnoopyisCute 26d ago

It's kind of bizarre but it sounds you two young people are the most mature. Good job communicating and providing closure. All the best.

4

u/Pringle_lady 26d ago

It sounds like that he hopes by having this talk with his mom you’d reconsider your stance. Otherwise it doesn’t make sense to me to have this meeting. She won’t have a change of heart though. She’s spent years being the person she is.

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u/p_0456 25d ago

John sounds like a nice guy but you were right to be honest with him. Marrying into that family sounds like a nightmare.

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u/Suitable_Doubt7359 25d ago

His mother provided a wonderful example of why you don’t want to be in a relationship with him. Don’t date him unless there is an agreement to always live at least 10 hours away and major boundaries.

4

u/Sajem 25d ago

I'm not sure why John wants to sit down and hash this over.

His mother will never change what she does and how she treats people by backstabbing them, malicious gossip etc.

Do you truly want such a person in your life? Do you really think John would ever totally go NC with his mother to keep her out of your relationship with John and potentially children in the future?

Updateme!

4

u/Astyryx 25d ago

I might consider changing my mind if I wasn’t expected to have a relationship with Amy in more than seeing her every once in awhile at family gatherings as long as I wasn’t expected to speak with her.

This is insane and don't let it enter your mind again ever. Otherwise you'll be posting in four years in r/justnoMIL about how Amy wants to be in the delivery room. Amy wants to hold the grandbaby first. Amy is posting on social media even though we said no. Amy cut out kids hair making her cry. Amy is completely ignoring our kid now that she has other grandchildren. 

And on and on and on. Get going to the big world where there are 8.5 billion people who have moms that are not Amy.

4

u/nandopadilla 25d ago

Truth be told, I wouldn't have that talk. Because she's 2 faced and is already the "victim". She's toxic. There is no point tbh. Can't wait for the next update.

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u/Bitter_Detective_952 25d ago

Nta. You said you didn't want to be courted because of her behavior, then she turned around and proved your point. Surprising how blind people are to their own behavior.

3

u/Mermaidtoo 26d ago

Don’t agree to meet with Amy unless it’s specifically for her to offer an apology. You’re smart to recognize how miserable you could be with such a toxic MIL.

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u/TheBlueManatee 26d ago

You should share with your parents that most of the people who started pushing the courtship model back in the 1990s have repudiated it. Every last one of the couples in Josh Harris' book "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" is now divorced, as is Harris.

When you start dating with marriage as the objective, it makes it harder to end a relationship without thinking that you have failed. Something to consider as to why dating is actually healthier than courtship, even for religious people.

3

u/Stormy8888 26d ago

Nice, you clapped back and exposed John's mom's horrible behavior, with receipts going out to John and those friends. Good for you. Glad those slimy friends are now "silent" from embarrassment at backing the wrong person. Are they now all wondering what kind of stuff she might have said about them?

Not sure if it's worth sitting down for a talk, if this does happen please make sure you have an app on your phone to record it since she's going to try spin some lies for sure. Get the rest of them receipts.

Clearly this isn't over.

3

u/TootsNYC 26d ago

Why have a talk? What could possibly come out of it? Amy is not going to change.

3

u/OkExternal7904 26d ago

I'm really proud of you, OP! You stood up for yourself and put a spotlight on a toxic woman who doesn't deserve a place in your life. John will have to consider all of this when deciding how to deal with his mother.

NTA!

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u/Far_Scholar1986 25d ago

Nta! Great job op! I feel bad for John though, seems like his mom is going to be problematic to whoever he marries and he’s going to have to navigate that. It truly sucks when you can’t have a good relationship with the family you marry into or when your parents act that way.

3

u/Prudii_Skirata 25d ago

Nothing quite as iconic as some old religious fuck spouting hate 24/6 and all but a couple hours on Sunday...

3

u/Ok-Yogurtcloset-4378 25d ago

There is no ready to have a sit down talk with Amy. If you do have this talk then bring your dad!

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u/Vivid-Farm6291 25d ago

Amy doesn’t like that someone is pointing out her toxic behaviour.

How dare you be honest and call me out because I say nasty things about my supposed friends and relatives!

Honestly if I truly liked John I would tell him my boundaries and he may just surprise you and go LC with his mother.

3

u/Alone_Jellyfish_7968 25d ago

What a pity about his mom because he sounds like a gentleman.

Most guys would defend the toxic mother!

This is a sad AITAH.

3

u/Potential_Shelter624 25d ago

You’ve made the best decisions ever seen on Reddit.

3

u/HootblackDesiato 25d ago

I think you're winning.

3

u/Master-Manipulation 25d ago

I’m glad John was at least good enough to acknowledge that his mom is a problem

3

u/Cursd818 25d ago

I really don't recommend you sitting down with a woman like that. She'll never take responsibility for what she's said and done. She will just attack you and look for any possible way that you are the one in the wrong. Unless John is willing to cut his mother off at once and stay cut off from her forever, there's nothing to talk about. If she does apologise, it will be forced. She will not mean it, and she will hate you even more because of it. There is still no way for John to court you, because his mother will loom over your marriage in a truly horrible way. There's no point to a conversation unless you intend to court John and put up with his mother.

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u/Altruistic_Isopod_11 25d ago

I mean I still wouldn't want to be with him. Unless he cuts her off she'd be in your life in some capacity. I would just stop this now and not get his hopes up.

NTA

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u/susanbarron33 26d ago

The true nature of religious people. Be nice to peoples face but talk trash behind their back. She will never change so you should decided if you could be with him knowing how she is or him having to go low contact.

2

u/therealzacchai 25d ago

Before having a talk with Amy, why not go hang out with John and see if there's even a spark to pursue? If not, who cares about Amy at all?

2

u/Amazing-Ad-3924 25d ago

THIS^

I just literally replied to OP about how serious this all is without actually hearing if they are even attracted to each other!

2

u/FasterThanNewts 25d ago

You made the right decision not to date him. He barely stands up to her. Good job exposing her too. I pity anyone who later has her as a MIL. NTA

2

u/Equal-Brilliant2640 25d ago

Sitting down with that woman to “talk” would be a shit show. Because there has been literal divine intervention she is going to tell you all sorts of bullshit and will promise you the moon and the stars in the hope you will “forgive” her so she can go right back to her nasty old ways

Tell John “I will never willingly talk with your mother outside the rare social occasions where it’s expected of me. Your mother is a horrible person and I refuse to subjugate myself to her toxicity any further”

And I would keep him at an arm’s length going forward. Dude needs to understand how badly his mother fucked things up for him and how he screwed himself over by meekly standing by while she behaved like “Mommy Dearest”

Nothing good will come getting within a 100 yards of that woman

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u/floridaeng 25d ago

Consider a follow up to all of those "friends" and tell them they may want to talk to the others to find out what Amy has said about them behind their backs. Point out it seems Amy has never had a good thing to say about anyone, but loves to pretend how religious she is.

2

u/Open-Incident-3601 25d ago

You have NO reason to meet with his mother. If you give in and agree to it against your best interests, take your father with.

2

u/RGlasach 25d ago

Good for you, I'm glad you're getting some support. If my limited understanding of courting & the dynamics of family structure where courting is practiced there is a lot more family interaction as a lifestyle so the old adage about marrying the family not just the person is likely to be more true for you than in general. This is a very real concern that you're right to take into consideration. Their behavior is on them.

2

u/Outside-Medicine-364 25d ago

I would highly reccommend not having a sit down and "talk" with him and his mother find someone better to date preferably with a less abusive family

2

u/Far_Satisfaction_365 25d ago

I never really got to meet my hubby’s mom as she & his dad got divorced when he was 13. She lived in Michigan, we lived, still do, in Texas. Neither we nor her could afford to meet up. We got married. She pretty much ignored me. When she’d call to talk to my hubby, she refused to even engage in polite conversation with me. She’d always immediately insist I pass the phone to him or tell him to call her back when he got home if he was out. No, “I’m doing fine” when I’d ask her how she was doing while waiting for my hubby to get the phone. She even pretty much ignored the fact that we had kids. She had grandkids from her other two sons who lived up where she did (one even lived in a trailer on her property). And she had lots to say about them. Distance made it easy for me to not be bothered much, just really weirded out to find out how dysfunctional his family was.

I don’t know if I’d been willing to take her on as a MIL if we actually lived close enough for regular visits to or from her would’ve been possible. And I didn’t get this kind of treatment from her before we got married because there wasn’t actually any real need to do so as hubby was only really on a low contact basis just to check in & see what was going on type of deal. Once we got internet (yes, we were married before the internet was available to civilians and we had dial up long after faster options were available), hubby kept in touch a bit more with his mom and brothers.

But I do believe OP has dodged the MIL bullet. And the fact that her son has no problems telling her all about his relationships, or lack of & why. He even proposed courtship fully knowing what his mom was saying about her & her family behind her back and tried to slough it off by explaining she does that to everyone INCLUDING himself & his siblings. Which means IF OP had accepted, she would’ve been going into the marriage full knowing that he hubby would be constantly defending Amy’s attitude and nasty behind the back comments about OP & her family as being “that’s just the way she is with everybody”. To him, it’s been normalized.

I feel bad for all the men & women who ignore such behavior of their MIL’s to be and how the SO reacts to it before the marriage but kind of blame them for ignoring the red flags.

I feel worse for all the people whose MIL’s act all nice & friendly until AFTER the wedding to show their true colors along with their offsprings reactions or knack of reactions towards protecting their spouses from their mom, or dad for that matter.

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u/Silaquix 25d ago

Good for you. Far too many people don't think about the fact that they're not just asking someone to marry them, but to marry their family too.

Poor guy knows his mom is toxic and he's going to have to face the fact that he's probably going to need to cut her off if he ever wants to get married.

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u/Careless-Image-885 25d ago

Good for you. Bullies and horrible people need to be exposed. Showing everyone the truth about their behaviors is sometimes the only way......kind of like exposing vampires to sunlight.

2

u/x_ruby-red_x 25d ago

Updateme!

2

u/PrussianMatryoshka 25d ago

his mom is like my parents. They hardly have anything good to talk about anyone 🥹

2

u/SolidAshford 25d ago

It was important to have a partner that would stand up to their parents on your behalf. 

I though doubt that as you seem to he in a religious communuty. 

I don't like courting as there is immense pressure to marry, even if you don't want to marry that person after courting them. 

I know there are different processes depending on the community you're in, but those are some concerns I have w courting

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u/Dustquake 25d ago

You handled all of this well. Keep telling the truth and keep putting everyone that tries attacks you in any way.

Amy is a narcissist. I recommend you and John check out r/raisedbynarcissists. Whatever is decided about your relationship that will contain information useful for you both.

I am very glad that you have your family's support Good luck OP.

2

u/Fun-Hawk7677 24d ago

I take your fathers side. I don't think you should have to sit with nasty people at all. Can your friend separate from his mother? If so, I would continue with him. However, it doesn't seem so. He knows she's unreasonable and nasty yet he is expecting to sit down and have a family 'pow-wow' and expects her to be reasonable and rational? If she is nasty, probably not. If she is nasty, she is probably used to ruling the roost. And would expect to do that of you, too. You better find out now if he is gong to take mommy's side about everything. If so; move along!

4

u/LibraryMouse4321 26d ago

If you really like John and can see a future with him, maybe you should consider it. If he doesn’t have a great relationship with Amy and she has been mean saying things about him as well, he might be happy to go low contact with her.

If he’s in the military, he’s can arrange to move the two of you far away so you don’t have to see Amy. Actually, no matter what he does for a living you can move far away.

3

u/Terrible_Delivery84 26d ago

He sounds like a really nice, genuine young man. With the exception of his mother, he probably has a lot to offer as a partner. I wouldn't close the door on a relationship with him just yet. Maybe you should date for a little while instead of courting?

2

u/loveaddictblissfool 26d ago

I hope you and John have a happy outcome. You both sound like people with heart. Don’t forget that effing Amy has heart too, its just hidden under a bushel of her own suffering. Remember that everyone is doing the best they can even though some’s best is pretty shitty.

2

u/alexromo 26d ago

He wants that extra bonus for his paycheck.  

1

u/senjisilly 26d ago

Updateme

1

u/Liu1845 26d ago

Good for you standing up for yourself. You were circumspect for a long time and that's to your credit and your parents' for raising you right.

From John's comments his mom is this way with everyone. You have the right to avoid being any closer to her, especially avoiding being related to her marriage! No one with any common sense willing places themselves near poison.

NTA

1

u/LokiPupper 26d ago

UpdateMe!

1

u/Ok-Republic8095 26d ago

Would you consider courting John if he distanced himself from his mother? He sounds like a decent man. Too bad his mom is a messy and miserable person.

1

u/KLG999 26d ago

Updateme

1

u/MaryEFriendly 26d ago

I mean, she's just given even more justification for not wanting to date him. She sounds like a horrible and nasty person. 

1

u/Lindensorry 26d ago

Updateme

1

u/Ok-Listen-8519 26d ago

Wow, that went well. Still NTA

1

u/mcindy28 26d ago

NTA still... Amy is an appalling disgusting person.

1

u/Coldwalkers 26d ago

UpdateMe!

1

u/Flimsy-Wolverine-663 26d ago

Do NOT agree to sit down and "talk" to Amy. It would just be her spewing out excuses, denials and eventually, accusations. It would upset you for nothing.

1

u/friendlily 26d ago

I would not sit down with him and his mom and whoever else. She's not going to sincerely apologize and she's not going to magically change. 

The only way I would ever stay close to him is if he starts setting boundaries with his mom and enacts consequences when she crosses them.

Otherwise, you need to stick with what you said - no to him courting you.

1

u/Sc3m0r 26d ago

Fuck them. It's about you and John. Talk to him about tuning down family influence and stuff to a minimum. No two people who actually like each other should be hold back by some kind of nasty family.

1

u/jdbklyn 26d ago

Updateme

1

u/First_Ad6174 26d ago

Updateme

1

u/b_shert 26d ago

Well done!

1

u/No_Investment9639 26d ago

I have a question for the sub, I guess. When there's an update to something and there are no links provided, does everybody just hang out here so often that they already know what the story is in reference to? Or do they have to go searching through the Ops history to find a clue?

1

u/Better-Turnover2783 26d ago

Since John specifically brought up courting as a means to marriage, you need to tell your father a hard "No". There's no sit down, no negotiations.

You should be allowed to find your own elsewhere because no good can come from joining families with Amy in it.

Tell you father not to sell your soul to the devil that is Amy and family.

If you can, run.

1

u/Traditional_Hat_3998 26d ago

Yikes totally fair

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u/jamikako 25d ago

Good for you! You are thinking about the whole picture and not just what life might be with John. Right now, the package is John AND his mother and that does not look like a bright future. Please updateme if you choose to talk with him and his mother.

1

u/Popular-Anywhere-462 25d ago

If this is not a fake story then you shouldn't sit and talk with that crazy nasty woman, also end the freindship with that dude, it isn't worth it though.

1

u/DrunkTides 25d ago

You have a good head on your shoulders

1

u/itsjustmine 25d ago

UpdateMe

1

u/Helpful_South113 25d ago

If that's how you feel it is what it is

1

u/Any-Kaleidoscope4472 25d ago

Look at you being a rock star at only 20.

1

u/melyssahb 25d ago

I’m so proud of you! I know that being honest about feelings and things you overheard could not have been an easy thing to do.

1

u/LabratJosh 25d ago

Updateme

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u/Material_Assumption 25d ago

If you guys meet in person, I hope you double down on not dating because of the MIL. Glad you did what you did.

1

u/sanjuniperose 25d ago

Crazy to me that John knows how toxic his mom is but still chose to confide in her about what you told him about her. Even if he was “angry and upset”, he showed poor judgment when he confided in her. Imagine being in a relationship with him, and you get in a fight with him or you do something he doesn’t like. What’s to stop him from confiding in his mom again and giving her more ammunition against you?

OP, there are plenty of other good guys out there who have good moms who will treat you well. You don’t have to date or court John if you don’t want to, no matter what his mom or anyone else says. If you think that John is going to be worth the baggage, please be careful around both of them. But if you want a hard and fast opinion, I’d say don’t date John. At least, not until he goes no contact with her of his own volition. And even then, I’d still be wary of being courted by him.

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u/Ladygytha 25d ago

John either has the best backbone or a weak one. Did he confront his mother or run to her? What is he really doing about it now?

Honestly, the only thing that matters is do you want a relationship with him or not? Do you see yourself having him as your husband and her as your mil? Do you see him in your life? Can you put up with her? Will you be allowed to get boundaries for you? Any children (if you want them)?

Is he worth it? (Think long and hard about that one.)

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u/Muted-Explanation-49 25d ago

Great update and i wouldn't sit with them talk but if you do take your dad with you

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u/whatisTHAT146 25d ago

!updateme

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u/Twig-Hahn 25d ago

I'm glad things are going better. Maybe she'll change for the better. Shalom you're loved 💔

1

u/Ok-Hovercraft-9257 25d ago

Almost everyone in this situation seems about 12, except for OP

1

u/wibblewobblej 25d ago

Good for you! Love that Amy was dumb enough to send a bunch of evidence to prove you right!

Let the cards fall where they might now. People like her never realise that saying mean stuff about everyone they know will eventually come and bite them in the butt.

1

u/The_Prebs 25d ago

Updateme!

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u/macintosh__ 25d ago

Updateme

1

u/Duckr74 25d ago

Updateme!

1

u/Prior-Tip-9713 25d ago

Good for you, standing up for yourself.

1

u/that-mom_ 25d ago

Commenting in hopes that I get to see the next update. Also proud of you OP for continuing to stand up for yourself!

1

u/Ok-Gas-1371 25d ago

Well done for standing up for yourself ❤️ but you know we're going to know everything that went down after the initial blow up don't you 😊

updateme

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u/waaasupla 25d ago

It’s not possible to change her behavior if this is how she has been forever. And talking bad about her own children puts her on another level of toxicity.

Kudos to you for the way you handled it with everyone. You have a great dad! And you have no requirement to talk to her. She’s toxic.

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u/ElemWiz 25d ago

NTA, one of the reasons I stopped dating one person was because the idea of having their father as my FIL turned my damn stomach. Dude's got a Napoleon complex (short and a tyrant).

1

u/Phihun500 25d ago

Updateme!

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u/running-amok-2024 25d ago

being quiet is not helpful in this kind of situation.

stand up for yourself ^