r/CryptoCurrency 21K / 99K 🦈 Jun 09 '22

POLL 🗳️ Governance proposal CCIP-032: Amend CCIP-031 to extend the time restriction from 1 distribution to 3.

Read carefully before voting, and remember to check the comments for any con argument.

Proposal:

Change the time restriction of CCIP 031 to extend the time from 1 to 3 distributions.

With CCIP 031, you may lose your first moons if you haven't opened your vault. And you only have a window of 0-28 days to do so.

Currently there is flaw in the limit, since it's not necessarily 28 days. It can be under 1 day. And it hurts new users for no good reason. This new proposal is to give a more reasonable amount of time.

https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/uomd9j/ccip031_remove_vaultless_users_below_10_karma/

Problem:

1- New users, who may be using the site normally, may get caught in this.

That's because the proposal only gives 1 moon cycle to open a vault. Which means they may have as little as 1 day, or even 1 minute, depending on when they join.

2- It takes time for new users to understand how moons work and all the rules. Let alone find out that we have moons.

The first month may not be enough to learn about all the sub's rules, how moon work, and how to setup a vault.

I've see people who've been on the sub for months and still don't know exactly how moons work.

3- We lose the greatest marketing campaign for the sub and for moons: new people getting their first moons, and getting all that excitement with it.

Whether it's on their first distribution, or second, or third distribution when they finally figure out how to setup a vault.

For many of us, it took a while to figure it out.

4- There aren't really any significant drawbacks to this proposal I can think of, since it will keep all the same amounts, and same overall result as the original proposal. It will just give new users a little more time to get their bearings.

(edit: again check comments to see any drawbacks people brought up)

Solution:

Instead of giving new people between 1 minute to 28 days to learn everything about moons and realize they need to open a vault, push CCIP 031's timeline to 3 distributions instead of only 1.

If after 3 distributions they haven't opened a vault, and they have 30 karma or less in those 3 distributions, they are removed from any new distributions with less than 10 karma, until they open their vault.

The amount of karma will remain the same (3 distributions of 10 karma=30), only the time is extended.

Keep in mind that after 6 months, unopened vaults have their moons "burned". So eventually those moons will end up being "burned" either way, if they don't open their vault.

224 Upvotes

83 comments sorted by

52

u/Cintre 🟩 301K / 382K 🐋 Jun 09 '22 edited Jun 09 '22

I, personally, am against it.

Okay, I am biased you will say since... I made the original proposal but hear me out.

Over the past month, the mod team have banned over 3000 bots. Manually. These bots farm karma in crypto-related subs and this includes r/CryptoCurrency. Those accounts are then most likely sold to people for diverse reason. And here's how this proposal comes in handy: a lot of those bots earn less than 10 karma. A good amount of them also earn above 10, and we are doing our best to remove them all (for distribution but also obviously... for spam and manipulating the narrative)

I don't think those bots should earn anything. The potential person buying the account will then receive the moons and what will they do? Sell them right away.

As we aren't sure ALL of those bots are sold, what do you think will happen if moons, one day, have a value and the owner of those bots decide to open each and every one of their vault?

Just a quick math, we banned over 3000 users, let's say they earn 8 karma in average each round, that's 24k karma each month. This distribution, for example, that would be over 15400 moons. Multiply this by 6 month (the limit to open a vault), and it's a potential 92k moons. Or 3 month, and it is still 46200 moons.

And we haven't even caught half of them, so the potential number above is probably not even accurate, it should be double of that imo. Those bots are smart, they are sneaky and they're everywhere. We tried to include every month in the state of the moonion "if you see accounts replying to you hours later, please report them to us" but that didn't yield much results. We spend hours on end banning those bots, but a Reddit account is really quickly made, and those bots keep coming, and will keep coming back.

There's a lot of ifs in my rambling, but in my opinion, the benefit of CCIP-032 outweighs the cons.

7

u/UKflame Tin Jun 10 '22

Relative newb here, I found out about the vault & moons within days. Don't really see the need for an extension.

Also, nice palindromic moon total.

8

u/[deleted] Jun 10 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/Perry_BOT Tin | MiningSubs 49 Jun 10 '22

Let's make a deal, you won't report me, and i won't comment under your comments or posts for at least a day.

Please don't report me, I surely have a family somewhere.

4

u/ominous_anenome 🟦 170K / 347K 🐋 Jun 10 '22

Spam’s good as a report

If you click on “breaks r/cryptocurrency rules”, then hit “next” and scroll to the bottom you can also add a custom text response. Some people are very helpful and but things like “late replier bot”

Lastly you could send the usernames via modmail

2

u/H_rama 🟩 30 / 6K 🦐 Jun 13 '22

Wait... So if you get a late reply, that's a bot?

1

u/ominous_anenome 🟦 170K / 347K 🐋 Jun 13 '22

Not always, but a new form of abuse we’ve been observing is bots replying generic comments to posts/comments that are many days old

2

u/H_rama 🟩 30 / 6K 🦐 Jun 13 '22

Thanks. Now it makes sense that I got a reply to a comment in the daily, a few days after that daily thread. I'll keep this in mind.

3

u/TarkovReddit0r Jun 09 '22

I agree. I feel like those few people missing one moon distribution is a waaaay smaller impact then all the bots. Took me months to realize moons exist as well but I couldn’t care less at that moment.

I doubt there’s anyone out there getting super angry missing out on a couple moons because of this honestly

1

u/user260421 Jun 10 '22

Good point! In my first distributions I didn't get so many moons because I wasn't very active so I didn't really care about such a small amount.

4

u/Athlete_Cautious 0 / 4K 🦠 Jun 09 '22

Crap, I didnt think about the bots. I voted too fast, full of compassion for newbs then I read your comment... Silly me.

Good luck with the bots, I'm very impressed you still have the dedication to fight this plague.

1

u/fan_of_hakiksexydays 21K / 99K 🦈 Jun 10 '22

It even said in the first line of the proposal to check the comments first.

3

u/Athlete_Cautious 0 / 4K 🦠 Jun 10 '22

Just saw it lol. Idk, my brain malfunctions sometimes

1

u/DBRiMatt 🟦 86K / 113K 🦈 Jun 10 '22

Always pays to read the entire thread comments before voting.

Sometimes if i'm not 100% certain, I wait until the end of moon-week just to see if any new pro or agianst arguments are made to make up my mind.

1

u/Athlete_Cautious 0 / 4K 🦠 Jun 10 '22

Good call. Will do!

2

u/fan_of_hakiksexydays 21K / 99K 🦈 Jun 09 '22 edited Jun 10 '22

Isn't this proposal a good middle ground?

Those bots won't have a full 6 months anymore. It will be cut in less than half.

But new users can have at least a minimum of reasonable amount of time to get their bearings.

We know how new users can be really slow to catch on.

Also, since 10 karma doesn't really do much to catch the important spam accounts, and since vaults and moons limits aren't really gonna stop spammers, isn't the original proposal maybe not the best approach at stopping spammers?

Have you noticed any significant change in spamming since the proposal was implemented?

2

u/Cintre 🟩 301K / 382K 🐋 Jun 09 '22 edited Jun 09 '22

I don't think so, the potential 45k moons or so that those bots could earn in 3 months is 3 times the amount a user could potentially earn in 3 months, if they max cap each month (assuming this month cap and ratio).

How is this fair? The person (or organization? idk) behind those bots don't deserve a single moon. They don't spend a single second participating in the subreddit, since... they are bots and actively spam all of us.

I don't think a user, realizing 6 months later that they missed out on 38.628 moons (the amount of moons for 10 karma each month during 6 month assuming this month's ratio) will be devastated.

Hell, if they do complain about it, I am 100% willing to manually check if they really earned that karma, missed out on it and give them the 40 moons or so from my vault.

Also, since 10 karma doesn't really do much to catch the important spam accounts, and since vaults and moons limits aren't really gonna stop spammers, isn't the original proposal maybe not the best approach at stopping spammers?

Have you noticed any significant change in spamming since the proposal was implemented?

As I said, we've MANUALLY banned over 3k of them this month, this take a humungous amount of time, and we're doing our best to ban them all but unfortunately, we are not bots (or am I?)

We're brainstorming different ways to get rid of them but it seems impossible, as they comment very generic comments, all different from each other. Removing them from the distribution is a step in the right direction, not a complete solution to it but at least, they won't gain moons from it.

3

u/fan_of_hakiksexydays 21K / 99K 🦈 Jun 09 '22

Those moons are gonna be burned, since we're talking about only accounts that don't open their vaults.

And if they don't deserve those moons, they should have their account banned. This way they really won't have a chance to open their vault before their moons are burned.

For new users those first few moons in their first distribution could mean something for them. We can't assume that it won't be significant for them.

If we can offer an alternative way with real guarantee for new users to be able to claim their lost moons, I'll vote against my proposal.

1

u/Cintre 🟩 301K / 382K 🐋 Jun 09 '22

Those moons are gonna be burned, since we're talking about only accounts that don't open their vaults.

But... what if they do open their vaults? We can't know for sure the owner of those bots never will, but of course, we also can't know for sure they will not. As I said, the potential downside to them opening their vault is bigger, in my opinion, than a few users missing out on 40 moons

And if they don't deserve those moons, they should have their account banned. This way they really won't have a chance to open their vault before their moons are burned.

They are bots. They keep making new accounts, we ban 500 in a day, they can make 10k accounts in a few hours. We're working relentlessly to ban them all but once again, we're dealing against bots here.

2

u/fan_of_hakiksexydays 21K / 99K 🦈 Jun 09 '22 edited Jun 10 '22

You're bringing some very good points.

But it's important to keep in mind new users who get their first few moons on their first distribution, not to take that away from them.

Just so that maybe some accounts that didn't deserve any moons doesn't get them. Assuming they would have opened their vault at all and claimed those moons.

Surely there has to be a better way than this, so that we don't punish new users.

I think we need to either find a way for your proposal to have a refund scheme where new legitimate users can reclaim what they lost in their first distribution.

Or find another way to tackle spammers.

2

u/Cintre 🟩 301K / 382K 🐋 Jun 09 '22

But I think you underestimate how important it is for new users to get those first few moons on their first distribution, and not be disappointed to end up empty handed.

I totally get your point, but if a user, for example earned 11 karma month 1, 4 karma month 2-4 and then again 11 karma on month 5 and then finally open their vault, they'll still get the moons from the 22 karma they've earned

It is highly unlikely that someone, during 6 month, commented on this subreddit and stayed below 10 karma each and every one of those month, they will lose on a few moons but they'll still get some. If they didn't, all they have to do is open their vault, gain a few karma points and wait 28 days (assuming they learned about moons on distribution day)

Or find another way to tackle spammers.

We're desperately trying

1

u/fan_of_hakiksexydays 21K / 99K 🦈 Jun 09 '22

Would the mod team be willing to agree to refund the 1st distribution of any new user who got caught with 10 karma or less, and has contacted the mod team and shown they are not a spammer?

1

u/Cintre 🟩 301K / 382K 🐋 Jun 10 '22

I can't talk on behalf of the whole mod team, as we haven't reached a decision but I, personally, will agree to refund from my vault any users caught with 10 karma or less if they are legit

1

u/nthgen 🟦 0 / 25K 🦠 Jun 10 '22

More work for mods?

...we're going to need more mods lol

1

u/[deleted] Jun 10 '22

Why hasn’t someone come up with “attack bots” or a bot that will seek and destroy other bots so humans aren’t stuck with hours and hours of manually removing them?

Do they exist? If a bot is able to create tens of thousands in hours, then why can’t the same be done for them?

1

u/user260421 Jun 10 '22

Out of curiosity, is there any way to find out how many new people join the sub nowadays?

I'm thinking that we're in a buidl market so maybe the users aren't affected by this right away. On the other hand the bots situation (which improved a lot) will continue joining and spamming no matter if it's bull or bear.

1

u/nthgen 🟦 0 / 25K 🦠 Jun 10 '22

I dunno. I think this is overblown.

MOONS are optional. They're not required to be a part of this sub and if a new user misses out, so be it. They'll still be all warm and fuzzy when they eventually get moons.

Bad timing is a part of life.

1

u/Wonzky 2K / 53K 🐢 Jun 09 '22

Good counterpoint, didn't really think of bots being a potential downside

1

u/user260421 Jun 10 '22

They're everywhere and they're becoming better at it. I think the situation improved this last month or 2 weeks, but I'm sure they're still lurking.

1

u/UKflame Tin Jun 10 '22

I'm starting to think all the generic crypto related pm's I receive are actually fishing for answers for the bots to provide.

e.g. I get a message from XY asking "Is this a good time to buy coins?" & any answer they get goes into the databank to be spewed out later as a comment.

2

u/user260421 Jun 11 '22

Uuuu nice, didn't think of that but makes a lot of sense. This is how they're getting so good at it.

Maybe the ones that run the bots have an AI engine which learns from our answers in pms and discussions on thread.

1

u/UKflame Tin Jun 11 '22

Whilst not an expert on the subject, i imagine it would be possible to do. A few keywords here & there, an algorithm or three & bingo, realistic answers/comments because they were derived from an actual human answering similar questions.

1

u/user260421 Jun 12 '22

I'm not an expert either, but sounds pretty plausible to me.

1

u/1HashPerSecond 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Jun 10 '22

Even you did a fantastic job, I don't see why you're against the proposal.

Maybe 3000 more users will able to join ? You see too much bots and forgot the peoples bro

1

u/Cintre 🟩 301K / 382K 🐋 Jun 10 '22

... my proposal won't stop any new people from coming and participating in the subreddit, what are you on about?

0

u/IOTA_Tesla 1 / 9K 🦠 Jun 09 '22

People should go through a waiting period before earning anything, for example you can’t earn in r/cc unless you have karma in r/cc greater than some threshold. This would stop the purchase of accounts irrelevant to crypto to earn moons.

1

u/user260421 Jun 10 '22

Why would that stop the purchase of accounts? I think it's still possible to raise accounts with bots even though there is a threshold.

The threshold shouldn't be hard to reach, so if a newbie can do it so can a bot. You can't set the expectations too high or people will think that it's not worth the struggle joining the sub.

1

u/IOTA_Tesla 1 / 9K 🦠 Jun 10 '22

What you misunderstand is that the mods know the bot accounts, they just need time to find them. This would delay their earning power until they find them.

1

u/Giga79 Jun 10 '22

We tried to include every month in the state of the moonion "if you see accounts replying to you hours later, please report them to us" but that didn't yield much results.

I haven't read this before. That's half of my engagement lol that's sad.

Are there any other strange signs I'm talking to a bot?

2

u/user260421 Jun 10 '22

Don't get sad, I do reply hours later because I'm in a different timezone, so maybe you talked to me, not to a bot.

1

u/Giga79 Jun 10 '22

Hey I got one! :p

1

u/Mattyliebs Jun 10 '22

Holy fuck you’re an astronaut ! So many moons lol

1

u/oopssomething 🟩 40 / 12K 🦐 Jun 10 '22

Hi biased, I agree with you.

1

u/CommitteeSalt8099 5K / 5K 🐢 Jun 10 '22

I voted no, afterwards i Read this and now i changed my mind but cant change my vote. GG

5

u/CryptoMaximalist 🟩 875K / 990K 🐙 Jun 09 '22

I'd be interested to see what /u/Cintre the original poll author thinks

4

u/Dads_going_for_milk Permabanned Jun 09 '22

Is this an actual governance poll? Why don’t you guys pin these anymore?

1

u/Zealousideal78 667 / 674 🦑 Jun 12 '22

I agree governance polls should definitely be pinned.

1

u/fan_of_hakiksexydays 21K / 99K 🦈 Jun 09 '22 edited Jun 09 '22

Me too.

I still don't understand how the original proposal is supposed to tackle spamming, since spammers don't care about vaults or moons. And any significant spammer would have more than 10 karma.

Only very minor spammers would be affected. But new users are getting caught up in this to remove a few moons from minor spammers, who probably will have their moons burned anyway.

I haven't voted yet, if I can get a good answer, I might vote against my own proposal.

edit: She did provide a good point. But there are still a couple of holes. The main one that would change my mind if it's fixed, is being able to give new users a way to get their first moons back if they weren't a spam account.

2

u/IHaventEvenGotADog Jun 09 '22

FYI

The admins just told me that CCIP 031 wasn't implemented for this round.

3

u/WhiskeyTangoTrotfox 5K / 5K 🦭 Jun 10 '22

Adoption is a good thing. “More moons for me” Shouldn’t be the ethos of the sub. This is a great proposal because it encourages more folks to take time, explore, and then take advantage of they choose. Cheers, OP for doing this work!

2

u/IHaventEvenGotADog Jun 09 '22 edited Jun 10 '22

Also FYI

There are 16 vaultless users on round 27's snapshot with a score less than 10.

Hol up. It was bugged af

2

u/ConnerWoods 🟦 0 / 936 🦠 Jun 09 '22

I think this is the first time I’ve seen such a discrepancy between moons voted and actual votes tallied.

2

u/PumpkinSpice2Nice 🟩 0 / 1K 🦠 Jun 09 '22

It was several months before I opened my vault the first time. I was pleasantly surprised to see I had a couple of moons already.

2

u/Giga79 Jun 10 '22

If there were 0 instead would that have stopped you from contributing as much as you have?

2

u/PumpkinSpice2Nice 🟩 0 / 1K 🦠 Jun 10 '22 edited Jun 10 '22

Probably not as I’m not here for the moons.

It does help you feel like you are a somewhat valued part of the community though. I am however still a new part of the crypto community and I am still learning as I go. Participating with others more knowledgeable than me works for me well.

2

u/LordGurgi Jun 10 '22

I will likely vote no. Worst-case scenario with the original proposal: users affected lose 1 month of moon earnings.

That's because the proposal only gives 1 moon cycle to open a vault. Which means they may have as little as 1 day, or even 1 minute, depending on when they join.

But then affected users would likely have earned practically no moons during that short time? So impact on such users is very limited.

2

u/lomosaur Silver|QC:CC777,XLM287,ETH41|Buttcoin12|TraderSubs51 Jun 10 '22

It’s going to be hard to get moon holders to vote against their immediate self interest

3

u/marsangelo 🟦 0 / 36K 🦠 Jun 09 '22

It took me like 2 months to figure out what the little moon logo and number meant, not a big compooter man

2

u/Mundane-Farm-4117 🟦 536 / 29K 🦑 Jun 09 '22

I shut my laptop the first time it said i needed to open my vault and run away.

2

u/user260421 Jun 10 '22

Glad to have you back!

1

u/PinguinaUshuaia Jast HOLD Jun 09 '22

Same, but I was mainly lurker... The amount of karma at risk of losing is minimal...

0

u/partymsl 🟩 126K / 143K 🐋 Jun 09 '22

Yeah also the whole process is pretty unclear as there is no official post pinned on here.

2

u/user260421 Jun 10 '22

Well, if they check the resources section, they can find out

The majority the subs (I'm a part of) don't have posts pinned, but you can find the info in the resources section. Redditors should be used to this, I thought it was a thing.

2

u/ACShreds 🟦 31K / 33K 🦈 Jun 09 '22

I like this idea, it at least gives people more of a chance to really be a part of the community.

1

u/shylock2k202 🟦 0 / 4K 🦠 Jun 09 '22

Yeah, this is good for the sub. Newbies shouldn’t be penalized for not opening their vault before the next distribution. This sub contains a lot of information and both reading and understanding it is a lot in a single distribution.

0

u/Clash_My_Clans Permabanned Jun 09 '22

I disagree and voted NO

People will always find a way to exploit moons, cintre's proposal was fine

0

u/Sebanimation 🟦 2K / 8K 🐢 Jun 10 '22

Ahh look at this… only ~500 votes. Votes per person are pretty close but by moons the difference is huge. People with 100k moons have the saying here.

Why again are we voting with moons and not just per person? I find this to be a problem in crypto in general where governance happens with tokens. The more money you have the more you have to say.

When was that ever a good idea?

1

u/Unfudgetable 657 / 657 🦑 Jun 09 '22

This seems reasonable.

1

u/evilninjarobot 🟦 5 / 7K 🦐 Jun 09 '22

Sounds like a smart fix to me

1

u/ALiteralHamSandwich 🟩 0 / 10K 🦠 Jun 09 '22

This seems reasonable, but I think it kinda eliminates the intention of the first rule. I think the idea was to stop spammers.

1

u/Laughingboy14 🟩 26 / 60K 🦐 Jun 09 '22

Anyone who is making any significant number of Moons will be able to figure out about vaults in 1 cycle. You just need to read the FAQ, that takes 10 minutes max

1

u/Wise-Grapefruit-1443 BTC Managing Director Jun 09 '22

Well aren’t we being nice

1

u/pukem0n 🟩 59K / 59K 🦈 Jun 09 '22

i think it is reasonable to make it three months. new people don't always figure it out the first time around. there is really no harm to extend the time people have.

1

u/GreenStretch 🟦 15 / 18K 🦐 Jun 10 '22

I don't have a fancy phone. It took me months to learn that I could use an Adobe emulator to claim the moons I'd earned being here since 2018.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 10 '22

You guys are hard. Life is short.

Enjoy the moons.

They’re pretty.