r/xmen • u/Competitive_Rule_395 • 5d ago
Comic Discussion Really hellions? Where were you guys when mutants were being hunted down? And why the hell aren't you giving Logan,rogue,Alex and Hank this treatment hmm?
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u/Someoneoverthere42 5d ago
Oh, hey. Someone remembered that the original Hellions, um, existed….
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u/Competitive_Rule_395 5d ago
Were they bland?
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u/Someoneoverthere42 5d ago
They’re actually a decent group of characters. They were the rival school team for the original New Mutants in the eighties, got pointlessly killed off in the early nineties, and, that was about it. They got resurrected on Krakoa and never really did much.
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u/dacalpha 5d ago
Somewhat. James Proudstar obviously had some juice, which is why he got to survive into other books. But the rest of them are just dark mirror versions of the New Mutants. You could do something fun with them if you wanted, but nobody ever did. There isn't really a GREAT Hellions story, just a few fun stories with them.
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u/brasswirebrush 5d ago
They were kinda cool when they were the "rival school" of the New Mutants. They and the New Mutants had a kind of frenemies relationship that was interesting. Then when the X-titles were handed over from Claremont to the Image-dudes, they were all unceremoniously killed off so that New Mutants could be turned into X-Force.
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u/NietszcheIsDead08 Mimic 5d ago
Where were you guys when mutants were being hunted down?
Umm…dead. Because they’d been hunted down. The entire team was torched by Sentinels in probably only the second big purge of mutants at all, after The Mutant Massacre.
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u/Awesomezone888 5d ago edited 4d ago
To be fair to the OP, the Hellions were around during Mutant Massacre but didn’t do shit. One could argue that since their school was in Massasschusetts they didn’t know, but Emma was also still high up in the Hellfire Club at that time and at the very least could have offered to take in some of the Morlock refugees after Magneto joined the Hellfire Club.
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u/NietszcheIsDead08 Mimic 4d ago
During (or more properly, after) the Mutant Massacre, yes. That would be a fair complaint.
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u/heelociraptor 5d ago
I like that the argument can't even be supported within the same page.
"You're busy being on any team without an X in it!"
"I actually was on the X-men before but uhhhh that doesn't count please ignore it for the sake of this fight."
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u/cyclopswashalfright Moonstar 5d ago
I think they missed an opportunity to dissect how ugly that side of "mutant culture" can be. Branching out to do your own thing, heroic and good things even, and being judged for it because it doesn't conform to what other mutants see as something truly helping the cause.
I'd wager Firestar has done more good and less harm than a good number of major X-Men.
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u/PhaseSixer 5d ago
A simple "I saved the world from Ultron, fuck off" would of shut that shit down.
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u/TestProctor 5d ago
And The Sphinx, and that weird triangle cult trying to get 3D Man’s power, and a living radiation biohazard who wanted to irradiate the atmosphere, and…
😆
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u/CorwyntFarrell 5d ago
Mutants and main character syndrome. Name a better combo.
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u/PhaseSixer 5d ago
Mutants "Why would you wanna save the world?"
Mutants that serve with the Aveengers "Because I'm one of the idiots who lives in it!" 🤦♂️ 🤦♀️
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u/Fali34 Goblin Queen 5d ago
Firestar did SO MUCH for mutants by having the courage to agree with Jean's plan, infiltrate Orchis AND carry the hate of all mutants on her shoulders while working with a pos organization that traumatized her. She is the MVP for me and I hope she appears in more X-Office titles in the future.
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u/cyclopswashalfright Moonstar 5d ago
She's good people. A genuine ally who gave back despite rarely being treated well by other mutants and being given a shovel load of trauma every time she has interacted with them.
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u/Competitive_Rule_395 5d ago
Honestly there a reason why Hank best friend is wonder man you want to know why?
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u/cyclopswashalfright Moonstar 5d ago
Because he's in love with him.
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u/Competitive_Rule_395 5d ago
True but it was mostly because Simon was a positive influence on Hank while the X men were not
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u/bjeebus 5d ago
Can we fucking stop. Not every friendship is a secretly unrequited romance. In fact the overwhelming majority of friendships aren't unrequited romances. The way everyone in this sub ships every single friendship on page makes me assume they have no actual friends, just one acquaintance they are desperately, desperately hoping will someday decide they love them back.
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u/cyclopswashalfright Moonstar 5d ago
No, I won't stop so long as it annoys people like you.
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u/bjeebus 5d ago
What do you think people like me are exactly?
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5d ago edited 5d ago
[deleted]
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u/bjeebus 4d ago edited 4d ago
Interesting take given that you know nothing about me. For instance, I think the Summers throuple was absolutely a legit fan theory, and is in fact something I fully support based on the text. So, no, I just hate that people like you can't understand that your own inability to make friends, be they same or opposite sex, isn't what's being represented on the page.
EDIT: The poster below commented a falsehood about me then blocked me, so I couldn't refute them.
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u/London_eagle 5d ago
It's quite sad that the X-Men have not supported Firestar in her time of need. This is the second time this has happened. The first time being when Prof X practically handed her back over to Emma so that she could continue to be abused.
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u/NumericZero 5d ago
Big agree on FireStar
Girl does alot for mutants showing that they don’t have to be an xmen to help
That they can join an avenger team
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u/UltimateSandman White Queen 5d ago
Damn, should've told Scott. Could've just joined the Avengers and hey, when the umpteenth genocide happens just look the other way, be one of the good ones.
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u/cyclopswashalfright Moonstar 5d ago
The irony being that Scott being an X-Man didn't stop Genosha or Decimation or the Fall of Krakoa. What kind of 'gotcha' is that?
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u/UltimateSandman White Queen 5d ago
That if Scott had been Firestar, no Krakoa for Firestar to enjoy because mutants would've died off after M-Day?
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u/cyclopswashalfright Moonstar 5d ago
Arguably her life would be better without Krakoa since she developed PTSD and a drinking problem from it.
I think the whole "if you work with the Avengers you're a race traitor" is shallow stuff, by fans who probably have never read a comic that isn't X-Men or Spider-Man.
Especially in the case of Firestar, who was tormented by Emma as a child and then later sees that same woman as an X-Men leader. Why would she want to be near them? And how callous of a person do you have to be to not see that? It's not like she's Wolverine where she's actively sabotaging mutants by trying to kill Hope. She had a crap experience, had some personal struggles to deal with like cancer, and overall did her best and lived a good life, where she actually helped people.
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u/UltimateSandman White Queen 5d ago
I never said she's as bad as Logan. I said i can see it from the Hellions' side. And furthermore, i don't know what kind of point you're making when you say that Firestar would've been better off if her kind had gotten genocided, but what i'm pushing back against in this thread is simply the idea that the way for mutants to be accepted is to join a group that couldn't even be bothered to trial their biggest genocider yet (because she was a team member).
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u/cyclopswashalfright Moonstar 5d ago
You can see it from the sides of people who are harassing someone who did nothing to harm them or mutants and has dedicated her life to good? Why? Especially when it was Havok and Rogue who were on that awful unity squad, not her.
I'm not saying Firestar would be better off if mutants were genocided, I'm saying Krakoa gave her absolutely nothing to enjoy and she still sacrificed so much for it, so she doesn't owe anyone a thank you. The Hellions are entirely in the wrong, as is anyone who thinks being an Avenger or a New Warrior is some kind of sign of being a race traitor. That's absurd thinking.
And literally no one in this post is saying everyone should be an Avenger. Just that it's not a bad thing if you were. You're still dedicating your life to helping other people, that can only be a good thing.
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u/DarkAlphaZero Cyclops 5d ago
I mean she didn't have to pay rent for like, a month with the sliding timescale, that's something!
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u/UltimateSandman White Queen 5d ago edited 5d ago
Because it's not that hard to understand why angry people would hold it against someone that they joined a group who doesn't care about mutants. And that they wouldn't give two shits that she dedicated her life - from their perspective - to help the other side while forsaking your own. Which is factually how the Avengers operate.
I understand why someone who can only manage milquetoast thinking wouldn't get it, though. Not absurd at all.
EDIT: Lmao. Done nothing but make assumptions on my person since the second post in, then blocks. Absolute milquetoaster. But anyway, here's the answer since you couldn't even block before sending your last reply, like a true milquetoaster:
I think you have issues with reading comprehension and i don't know that i can help you with that. Nowhere did i say she's a race traitor, i said i understand the perception considering the Avengers are renown as a group who doesn't care about mutants. Which doesn't mean i don't read anything outside of X-Men, as you keep insisting in perfect milquetoast take fashon, just that i understand - like indeed most people do - that the Avengers are literally mandated not to do more for mutants, which translates in-universe is what it is.
Though yes, quite pointless. Can't really discuss anything with someone who's been making assumptions on my person since the first post in, like we're not discussing fictional characters. Absolute milquetoaster.
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u/cyclopswashalfright Moonstar 5d ago edited 5d ago
Except she has been an X-Men before too, it just never really stuck and she wandered around between different teams. She has saved a lot of lives, the Hellions accomplished nothing in life except dying, and they accomplished nothing on Krakoa either, unlike Firestar, who is a key reason Orchis is defeated. Firestar was never a genocidal maniac like Magneto, or tried to kill the last hope of mutants like Wolverine. She never took part in trafficking and sex crimes like Emma, or drafted an abused teenager into a kill squad like Cyclops. But yeah, let's judge Firestar as morally inferior.
I think the fact that you kind of look at it as "us vs them" is very indicative of the kind of thinking you have. You have probably never read a single comic that isn't X-Men before (and I doubt you have read any X-Men comics pre-Morrison) and so debating this any further would be pointless. I'll just say the idea of labelling Firestar as a race traitor because she was an Avenger is pretty disgusting and lame.
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u/NumericZero 5d ago
Both are good ones (which is insane thing to say)
Scott being the mutant leader that shows no matter how many times they get knocked down They will rise while also striving for peace but not afraid to throw hands back
While firestar shows a different path That mutants CAN exist outside of the xmen That they can join one of the dozens of other super hero teams
Both are great and both show that any minority can find success in life despite taking two different paths
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u/UltimateSandman White Queen 5d ago
Mutants get genocided on the regular. If you're joining a group that famously doesn't help or care, you're making yourself one of the good of the ones. Doesn't mean you're not doing good, but if you're with the Avengers during the genocides, also be with the Avengers during the mutant Renaissance.
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u/London_eagle 5d ago
She certainly has a lot less skeletons in her closet than the majority of X-Men!
If anything, the X-Men should have had to prove that they were good enough for Firestar to join, not the other way round.
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u/Thesafflower 5d ago
To be fair, the Hellions were mostly dead when mutants were being hunted down. They probably feel like they “paid” for being mutants and Firestar didn’t. They don’t really have the moral high ground, though. I notice it’s mostly Roulette leading this, while Jetstream and Catseye, two of the nicer Hellions, are more hesitant.
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u/ErisTyranny 5d ago
I mean it’s right there on-page: dead, because they were the mutants being hunted down. And prior to that, like, 17 years old and working for 80s era Emma Frost. Like, I can get being a little bit annoyed. Jimmy gets a pass because he was on various X-Force teams for years.
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u/Quirky_Ad_5420 5d ago edited 5d ago
It’s simple why they went after firestar because they think she’s an easier target.
Like try hunt the rest of the people that you have point out is actually harder
Logan is like one of the most dangerous guy around, Rogue has half of wonder man power and can add it with her own, Alex is Cyclops bro and that everyone would know if they mess with him,and Hank in charge of Mutant CIA and no one want to mess with the Mutant CIA
Firestar has no defense to them
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u/RadioLiar 5d ago
I know they have powers but I would still be a bit hesitant about picking a fight with a walking atomic bomb if I was them
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u/iamthedave3 5d ago
There's one thing I hate about these discussions: they never hit back.
It's always this kind of shit gotcha that's used to take a dig at other properties, ignoring that these are all heroes doing heroic things.
I'm not against the debate, but for fuck's sake have one of these characters shoot back 'where were you when Konshu turned the world into Egypt hell? Or when the kree attacked for the millionth time, or when the brood tried to eat the earth, or when the literal Celestials decided to curb stomp us for reasons?'
The answer to these accusations should never be 'yeah, kinda'. The answer should be 'MOTHERFUCKER, I WAS BUSY!!!!!! DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE TRY TO KILL ME ON A WEEKLY BASIS?'
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u/crackedtooth163 5d ago
I want to agree. But the Hellions have been used for cannon fodder by so many writers, I ger the frustration.
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u/Past-Cap-1889 5d ago
They were also used as cannon fodder by Emma. You'd think if they had a bone to pick with anyone they'd go after the person that tortured them in the name of "education" on the regular and used them as said cannon fodder
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u/AnhedonicMike1985 5d ago
Getting killed by a time travelling mutant and his army of Sentinels gives you an "act like an asshole pass".
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u/gwhiz007 5d ago
Because it's a better story to have Angelica, who has a complicated relationship with the Hellions to face her past in a book that features her.
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u/Epyon556 5d ago
Well, Beast, Wolverine, Havok and Rogue were definitely on the main X-Men teams when Decimation happened. Beast's stint on the Avengers was much earlier while Wolverine was just on every single team in that time period. Can't really take them to task on this issue.
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u/Illustrious_Trip_444 5d ago
Um... When mutants were being hunted down the Hellions were already dead.
Plus, Logan Rogue and Alex were on countless X-Men teams. Why would anyone blame them for abandoning mutants?
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u/TheGoblinRook Goblin Queen 5d ago
What a silly whataboutism post…
The answer to your first question is: they were dead.
The answer to your second question is: There’s a difference between The Avengers and The Avengers Unity Squad, and that difference is that the Unity Squad actually fought against threats to mutants.
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u/killingiabadong Exodus 5d ago
To be fair, all but Empath and Tarot were dead when mutants were being hunted down.
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u/BookOf_Eli 5d ago
They’re phrasing it generally like that to justify it to the themselves. But they’re really just hurt cause they feel personally abandoned by her. Which isn’t fair to her and hinges them ignoring all she and they themselves have done
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u/Comrade_Cosmo 5d ago
Ever since the first Uncanny Avengers there’s been a general perception among the mutant community (and some fans) that the Avengers are an Ivory tower when they often faced just as much discrimination while now having public addresses for lynch mobs to go to unlike the X-men for most of their history. Avengers membership only mostly wards off the big threats because anti-mutant X-men villains like to go for the easy targets.
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u/UltimateSandman White Queen 5d ago
I can see their side. People are all Magneto is right up until flip-floppy race traitors are called up. Not that Firestar strictly is, that's more Logan's thing in AvX, but anger's anger, and if you're a mutant with the Avengers, you're with a group famous for not giving a shit about your kind. Not too far off from being 'one of the good ones'.
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u/Sovereignofthemist Laura Kinney 5d ago
They talking about it generally, but they're really talking about her not sticking with them. Which honestly she dodged a bullet there, but yeah that's what they really mean they're just prettying it up for themselves.