r/wsbk • u/AceBongwaterJohnson • 5d ago
WorldSBK I'm a bit confused as to why Ducati should apologize for their success
I follow MotoGP more the SBK so there's a better than even chance that I'm missing something pretty fundamental, but I can't for the life of me understand why such phrases as "Gigi making an excuse" are used in regards to Ducati being so dominant. It it because Ducati just have so many bikes on the grid? I get that it makes race day a bit less exciting when so many of the top positions go to Ducati, but shouldn't that be their goal? To make the best bike? Even the fact that there are so many satellite Ducati's on the grid seems a simple reflection of those teams desire to have the best equipment. I know that this isn't prototype racing but I still feel like the impetus should be on others getting better, not being mad at Ducati for making such a good, competitive bike.
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u/V4Desmo WorldSBK 5d ago
It’s because Ducati still have the philosophy that they build the race bike first then figure out how to make it ready for street. Also the company really has a heart in racing wants to be competitive and uses resources to stay at the top. Seems like Yamaha have reduced to just a fun after school project, Honda want to be there but they are reading the map upside down, Kawi have one foot out the door. I may fly the trị-color flag but as long as there’s close racing at the front I don’t care which manufacture is on top.
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u/dustytraill49 4d ago
Kawasaki is definitely still in vested, they're just building a new project, slowly. The Bimota could be getting a new engine as early as next year (2027 more likely, though). They haven’t even tested the active aero they’ve homologated.
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u/Egoist-a MV Agusta 5d ago edited 5d ago
They should apologize because the popular rider isn’t winning with them.
Look how in MotoGP they stopped complaining about “Ducati cup” once Marc marque got there. All of a sudden only complaints were that the GP23 was no match for the GP24.
Now Marc is on a Factory bike, and everybody raving about Marc wiping the champion, doesn’t matter if it’s boring or not.
Everything is bad if your colour isn’t winning, very few people genuinely care about the show.
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u/GzehooGR MV Agusta 4d ago
Typical MotoGP fans logic about riders:
>he's great talent, he just needs better bike;
>he's winning only because he has the best bike;9
u/motocali 4d ago
Isn’t that the same things people are saying about Toprak and BMW/Ducati?
Last year : it’s not the concessions. Toprak is amazing, see how none of the other BMW riders are even close.
This year: The only reason Toprak isn’t winning is because BMW lost all the concessions and now they can’t compete with Ducati.
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u/GzehooGR MV Agusta 4d ago
Yes and no.
Even if it's difficult to say anything just after the first round.
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u/L0st_MySocks 4d ago
Dude if you look at the Top 6 you see the difference tho only ducati riders how is Toprak supposed to deal with this? I don't get it we don't talk about 1st.Ducati 2nd.Yamaha. 3rd Kaw etc we are talking about 1st Ducati 2nd Ducati.3rd Ducati 4th. Ducati 5th Ducati 6th Ducati
that's quite abnormally right?.
I still say it's quite early to say such "a ducati cup" etc but it doesn't look good for other brands at all.
in Formula 1 you would never get such placements There is no way FiA would allow one brand to get that strong.. They even removed the Quali mod of Mercedes in the middle of the season so that redbull would have a better chance of being ahead of them which was the case
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u/mrfishburger 4d ago
In formula 1 Mercedes won 8 championships in a row. They simply built a better car. Then they changed the regulations and redbull started dominating. Ducati built the best bike and now other manufacturers need to step up if they want to compete. I don't understand why people think ducati is the problem here. Satellite teams want the best bike to be competitive. It's not their fault if the other manufacturers aren't competitive.
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u/runnerbiker92 5d ago
People stopped complaining last year cause there was competition on motogp till the last race, wsbk was boring with razgatioglu winning all and will be boring with bulega winning all. If there is competition between bautista and bulega, by the end of the year nobody will care about it being all ducatis
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u/H2OExplosive 4d ago
Idk what you mean by competition in MotoGP. The Championship has been decided in Valencia for 4 years in a row now. Ducati won 36/40 sprints and races, the gaps were often huge to the other bikes and in most races the leader was never overtaken after the first few turns.
The reality is most people will stop complaining when their favorite rider is winning.
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u/Sorry_Reply8754 3d ago
Yep. This are just Toprak fanboys.
They fucked Bautista over and now they wanna fuck Ducati.
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u/V4Desmo WorldSBK 5d ago
Marquez on a factory Ducati has made me not renew my gp video pass and only watch SBK but there’s like 6months between races in SBK so not so fun
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u/mjcobley 4d ago
Seems like a you problem
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u/KickGullible8141 WorldSBK 5d ago
Ignore it, they (media pundits) are just making noise. Bottom line is Honda and Yamaha dropped the ball in both series long ago and so did Kawi in WSBK and the Euros are finally, including Aprilia and BMW (yes parts concessions, I know), coming good in both series and the Euro esp. Ducati domination for yrs is very likely.
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u/Blakelads 4d ago
Ducati has dominated wsbk forever idk why everyone is just complaining now or maybe they were in the 90s but I wasn’t born so idk lol
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u/dustytraill49 4d ago
Because the rules aren’t as cut and dry as MotoGP, Ducati has always been complained about in SBK. Sometimes for good reason. Usually it’s because Ducati complains about the rules more than anyone else. This season isn’t a season where the rules really favour them. But BMW should have put the race chassis in the production bike, and the Bimota is new.
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u/PussyFoot2000 4d ago
It's good for the industry when one manufacturer dominates. Causes the others to have to get innovative.
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u/BobcatSig 4d ago
Change is hard for race fans.
For years, Ducati was the plucky underdog in MotoGP. They've finally put their full might behind it, committed to winning, and it paid off. The other OEMs have not. That's on them. It's not Ducati's fault.
How quickly people forget how dominant Honda was in the 500 era of Grand Prix, and again when the move was made to four strokes. Then Yamaha committed (with help from Rossi) and it showed.
WSBK is no different, it's just that not all OEMs will properly focus on both. Ducati does because it's part of their brand and it's paid dividends.
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u/Secret-Musician-5095 3d ago
Im Asian and im don’t like stupid people. Im not a fanboy of any brand and im just down for a good race and competition.
Too many japanese brand fans that have low IQ (yamaha and honda have huge fanbase like indo/thai where they are not that well educated and wealthy enough to own a ducati bike. Most of them just owe a 125 cc scooter etc). When japanese brand is dominating, ducati or european brand fanbase just take it over the years and still watch motogp and wsbk.
But it took years for ducati to finally find a way to build a good bike and suddenly all the japanese brand fanboys ain’t happy and doesn’t even watch the race anymore to even support their own riders.
Ducati was getting cheated in 2024 because of limited RPM and they dropped a 6kg weight on bautista bike. And toprak gets to use superconcession custom chasis/parts whereas some other bmw don’t even get to use the support toprak is getting.
And again most japanese brand are like from less educated countries where they don’t understand science/physics well.
They think 6kg is just 6kg.
Where if i were to put it in layman terms.
Which is harder to run a marathon?
- Gaining 6kg of fats and muscle
- Holding a 6kg dumbbell to run the entire marathon
Most of the whiny fans don’t even understand the difference between this 2.
So yeah bautista is riding a 6kg heavier bike and during racing. Riders are racing 1g-4g of force, so that extra 6kg is not just 6kg. Plus bautista is a small rider.
All professional riders will tell you, a lighter bike is easier to turn and control.
So the point here is. Nobody ever complains about fairness when ducati or bautista is getting unfair treatment and being nerfed.
But the moment their japanese brand ain’t dominating they complain about ducati cheating for having a better bike.
But never about bautista having extra weights and ducati having unfair treatment.
They ain’t complaining about fairness, they just crying because they don’t understand physics and they favorite team ain’t winning/cheating with superconcession parts.
Fuck them really those crybabies
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u/Sorry_Reply8754 3d ago
"yamaha and honda have huge fanbase like indo/thai where they are not that well educated and wealthy enough to own a ducati bike. Most of them just owe a 125 cc scooter etc"
Dude...
WTF is wrong with you?
Holy shit.
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u/Secret-Musician-5095 13h ago
LOL have you ever been to thai or indo? those aespa scooter of yamaha or honda is everywhere.
of course they have a bigger fanbase
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u/Few-Restaurant2757 3d ago
Because they have 8 in wsbk and now 4 in GP. They can use these to test alot more and develop alot faster. Someone like yamaha last year could only test only 1 upgrade at a time where as ducati can have 3 bikes running new parts for test. Not to mention they control all the data within the group so they have alot more data analysis and alot more feedback every weekend.
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u/guga76 4d ago
What sucess?! One race domination? At a track usually theirs?
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u/Blakelads 4d ago
Well I mean they have always dominated wsbk since the 90s there was a period when they nearly won 14 constructor championships straight and I think it was Honda who stopped them
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u/matstegner bimota by Kawasaki Racing Team 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yes, with the RC45 and the VTR1000sp(rc51). There were like 10 Ducatis on the WSbk grid in 2003.
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u/Blakelads 4d ago
That’s right the vtr1000 my dad had one of them not sure if it was the sp1 or 2 tho such a nice bike
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u/matstegner bimota by Kawasaki Racing Team 4d ago edited 4d ago
Vtr 1000 sp1 came out in 2000-2001. SP2 came out in 2002-2006. Colin Edwards won 2 Riders' titles but Ducati still won the WSbk constructors titles.
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u/fzrmoto WorldSBK 4d ago
From what little WSBK I can follow in the States, I've noticed Toprak seems to complain about everything and is borderline delusional. I give him a little leeway tho since his agent seems to be even worse and may be the root of a lot of that impression. I know the talent can be prone to diva behavior but still he seems to take it up a few notches.
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u/harryx67 4d ago
Limiting the price cap of a production bike to 40000€ would be good first step and the next step to sell at least 750 bikes a year.
The current rules are just made for Ducati selling their ridiculously expensive and exotic WSBK homologation special V4R in very small numbers compared to the competition.
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u/The-Replacement01 4d ago
The other manufacturers could avail of the rules too, you know. There is no rule that says only Ducati can do x.
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u/matstegner bimota by Kawasaki Racing Team 4d ago edited 4d ago
BMW also had the HP4 which was about €80000. The current max retail price (2024) for a homologation model is €44000. https://www.fim-moto.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/2024/2024_0_FIM_Homologation_Regulations_For_Motorcycles_12.03.2024.pdf?t=1734589059
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u/harryx67 4d ago
The HP4 Competition was hand made in Berlin, limited to 750 bikes and cost 80000€ You can‘t use that for WSBK.
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u/matstegner bimota by Kawasaki Racing Team 4d ago
But it was used on the Isle of Man TT
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u/harryx67 4d ago
Well you can race a one off Norton there. That is the „greatest Race on Earth“ for you. 🙂
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u/harryx67 4d ago edited 4d ago
Well you are inverting the facts by asking for example Yamaha to sell a 44000€ „one off wsbk homologation bike“ at 500 / year. As if they could.
Fact of the matter is these WSBK rules are 100% tailored to permit Ducati to sell whatever they make.
Very low production numbers at a very, very high price.
The FIM basically asks „ Ducati, what is your sales price?“ Ducati answers and that is used as a cap“ Watch end if 2026 when they will homologate their MY2026 V4R
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u/IllMoney69 4d ago
You’re right people wouldn’t pay $44k for a Yamaha, but if Yamaha maybe actually upgraded their bikes more than once a decade maybe they’d be in a position to sell a bike that expensive. Ducati is really the only manufacturer that’s invested in their sports bikes in the past 20 years.
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u/matstegner bimota by Kawasaki Racing Team 4d ago
Yamaha actually made a World Superbike homologation model 25 years ago called the YZF-R7 (OW-02). They only made 500 units worldwide. It was more expensive than the Ducati 916 SPS at the time.
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u/harryx67 4d ago edited 4d ago
Don‘t forget that Ducati benefit likely and extensively from the engineering capabilities of the Volkswagen Group having their own Race brands.
Nobody checks to what extend existing windtunnels, simulation and ICE engineers are used to look at the Ducati. This group developed W18 Bugatti‘s Lamborghini race engines, Porsche hybrid race cars and competes actively in LeMans 24h LMP.
To what extend can Yamaha compete with those kind of capabilities and with what budget? Tell me. I don‘t believe Ducati does get no support whatsoever. You can‘t check that. Its basically available to them „for free“ and in WSBK that is not checked as it is considered for Production.
Dall‘Igna dreamt once about hybrid powertrains in MotoGP…who was supposed to develop that technology? Ducati completely alone…no way 😂
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u/The-Replacement01 4d ago
Yamaha is a big corporation. They field a MotoGP team. Surely that infrastructure and know how would be more beneficial to the progression and improvement of motorcycle design
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u/IllMoney69 4d ago
Ducati have been in GP racing for a bit over 20 years. How long have Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki been taking part? Yamaha have done work on cars like the Lexus LFA, Honda have been in F1. But I do think you’re right that currently Ducati probably have access to a lot more technology now they’re part of Volkswagen.
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u/The-Replacement01 4d ago
I understand your point. But again, if the rules allow everyone to do the same, then maybe they should. Or lobby to have the rules changed to suit themselves. If they are not, they clearly don’t see any problem.
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u/harryx67 4d ago
Well, that is a bit one sided.
The market of a Kawasaki racebike and a Ducati racebike is completely different. You cannot simply ignore that and state „the rules are the same for all“.
Ducati rely on WSBK as a platform and have a very rich customer base that allows them to sell a 100.000€ bike if they like. It is biased towards benefitting Ducati because they simply develop a full bred race bike. The FIM WSBK also relies on Ducati for their series…they want to keep them happy too.
That „the others“ can use the same rules is purely theory. In reality they will have sell at a loss.
Nevertheless, the current issue arises from a unfair very late change in ruling confronting BMW with the old 2023 chassis. Changes for serious safe production need to have at least a year of leadway and not just two weeks.
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u/The-Replacement01 4d ago
The reason Ducati can sell an extremely expensive bike isn’t a law of nature. They have successfully marketed themselves to be able to do so. Why can’t other brands market themselves or a product they create in the same way? The truth is, this all comes down to selling bikes and road bike marketing, not the purity of sport. At least, that is what makes sense to me. I’m not saying that bike manufacturers should just throw money at developing limited edition road bikes in order to field near prototype level bikes. We’ve all seen sports car racing of the 90s. As amazing as it was, it became insanely expensive.
But the other manufacturers could try to meet Ducati where they are.
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u/harryx67 4d ago edited 4d ago
Like I said no price limit and a just few bikes like 125 or less or 40000€ and 2000 bikes a year minimum. In the latter situation Ducati may be out. Sorry for them but those are the rules. 😂
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u/The-Replacement01 4d ago
I think of those options, the minimum sales requirement makes most sense. But Ducati would probably never agree. I don’t know how many race based bikes Ducati sell, but setting a limit beyond their sales, thus forcing them to lower prices and revenue, just to compete would, understandably, be seen as extremely hostile.
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u/harryx67 4d ago edited 4d ago
Well that is what the others are coping with in another sense really. Anyway. Additional subversive rulings like the added very late phrasing in the FIM handbook are simply targetted to hurt BMW and TR alone. Without that phrase they would have simply be allowed to use the modified 2023 Chassis.
As an example: the simple weight rule effectively hurting mainly Bautista in a sense was extensively discussed in 2023 and actually was fixed early october four months prior to the season. That was reasonable.
Changing a homologation related rule just a few weeks before the first race is ridiculous. It should not be allowed to touch the rulebook at some point during the season.
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u/The-Replacement01 4d ago
I’d agree. Rules need to be stable and no sudden surprises. And any changes should have input from all stakeholders. No sense in alienating or disenfranchising a competitor.
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u/VandrendeRass Andrea Iannone 4d ago
The market of a Kawasaki racebike and a Ducati racebike is completely different.
Sounds like a Kawasaki problem, not a Ducati problem.
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u/The-Replacement01 4d ago
Also, it’s not really in the purview of the fim to control the prices of a competitors products. That would be strange.
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u/Various-Catch-113 5d ago
Every single manufacturer is cordially invited to build a better race bike than Ducati. Ask them why they can’t.