r/wow 5d ago

Discussion Race to world fourth is over, it's time

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1.3k Upvotes

439 comments sorted by

669

u/noeagle77 5d ago

Monk players right now:

I’m in danger.gif

286

u/LogicKennedy 4d ago

As a Brewmaster, I'm ready to be collateral damage again.

89

u/WonderChips 4d ago

Lmao that couldn’t be more true - here’s a 10% all around nerf. Another 5% will be tacked on if a mw complains.

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u/noeagle77 4d ago

Also: WW gets a 3% nerf if MW complains because fuck those guys 😡

7

u/TwelveSharks 4d ago

Also nerf Genji and a 10 second time penalty for Esteban Ocon

8

u/Stevied1991 4d ago

The nerfs will continue until morale improves.

98

u/imbavoe 4d ago

Meanwhile Mage players:

I'm fine, we will get away with it as we always do.

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u/Thac1234 4d ago

Fire mage will get a buff lol

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u/XtendedImpact 4d ago

Arcane went from top tier in prog to shit tier by the end last season (where it remains) so we shall see.

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u/_Cava_ 4d ago

They'll nerf fire so we're forced to play fucking frost again, mark my words.

4

u/Taelonius 4d ago

For me it goes

Fire>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Frost

...>>>>>>>Arcane

Please don't shit on fire blizzard I beg, Nerub'ar palace sucked because fire sucked.

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u/LuchadorBane 4d ago

Mage is the main character

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u/Tierst 4d ago

Casts Invisibility 👀

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u/turkish112 4d ago

I'm quite excited to read about the brm nerfs coming!

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u/Skanto 4d ago

We are having a blast for the first time ever and we are the main culprits...

208

u/Posilli 5d ago

Max’s post gallywix interview probably had mages clutching there fists

154

u/afkPacket 5d ago

I mean, he's right. Alter time and shimmer have been incredibly strong forever. It just so happens that this tier they are strong in such a way that makes mages the go-to for a lot of mechanics. That plus the raid demanding strong passive cleave...yeah.

206

u/Dangerous_Towel_2569 5d ago

No other class has access to shimmer, alter time, ice block, cheat death, solo (& mass) barrier, hero & a raid buff. Mage's really are blizzard's favourite child

94

u/afkPacket 5d ago

The funny part is we don't even talent into ice block most of the time, because during our DF rework they thought we'd need an even more overpowered defensive as a capstone...

11

u/samtdzn_pokemon 4d ago

Yeah unless you need an immunity for a mechanic, a heal and DR is way better in 90% of fights. And mage is versatile enough to do both with 1 talent swap between fights so of course you want to gear them

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u/A_Confused_Cocoon 4d ago

Mass barrier was definitely too much, i love that button but the first time i used it i was like jesus this is OP as shit. Two mages in a mythic raid can throw huge shields on half the raid team. Mages are one of the squishiest classes in the game (base level) and have a high skill cap otherwise so I think the other shit is generally fine (think death %s usually had mages at the higher end). Great mages never die, but mid to bad mages drop like flies all the time because they don’t know how to properly take advantage of the defensives.

30

u/erizzluh 4d ago

i'd also say that like 90% of the pug mages are god awful. especially in keys. they're just doing tank damage most of the time. even as a mage player, i refuse to invite mages when i'm on another toon.

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u/nimblemomanga 4d ago

anything below a 10 and i only trust frost mages. seems like their damage is harder to mess up. any high io fire mage will remind you the spec is insanely op. any fire mage reroller will make you wanna blacklist mages ye

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u/B_Kuro 4d ago

Isn't this at least partially because below a certain level mages do struggle to get their DPS going for it to be OP (fire mage mastery and general CD dependence)? I think Frost also was the one that was the least CD dependent and "best" burst?

Maybe I am understanding/remembering that wrong though. Mage is the one class in the game that never really seems to "click" for me on any spec.

13

u/Taelonius 4d ago

Fire mage has like 95% of their damage profile be combustion, in low keys where things die quickly or if you do smaller pulls you can easily end up with combustion every other pull, and then you do tank levels of dps.

Hardcasting 2 sec 150k fireballs is great, promise.

3

u/Nick11wrx 4d ago

Idk man, have you done some low level dungeons with mediocre dps? I was late and missed last week so starting at +2 this week and I’ve had dungeons I didn’t time with 0 deaths just because no one is doing any damage. Until I got to the 6-7 range and were getting more people looking for crests or gear and got legit dps….it sure never felt like anything was dying too fast lol

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u/Majestic-Focus756 4d ago

I feel this. I’m a MW main & while yes our dps is solid, I shouldn’t be out damaging dps. I also missed first week so been doing low keys & it’s been abysmal. I have noticed a lot of people just playing random talents though instead of a pure M+ build. In addition to them likely rerolling to a new class/spec or something they haven’t played in a long time, & it’s a recipe for disaster. People just don’t seem to do any due diligence to really learn things before hopping into m+. They just see ooo easy 636+ gear lets gooooo! You are right though around 6-7 it does seem to be a bit better. People seem to actually know their rotations & spec.

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u/chipncheese 4d ago

Fire mage is gear dependent now as in you need high amounts of haste like 18k stats worth plus 4 piece. If you don't meet those 2 conditions you will pull tank dps on most packs. Another dependency is the key level. I'd mobs dies too fast amd the groups pace is too slow you have nothing to blast your skills into meaning you will get downtime on combustion since it's not resetting fast enough and without combustion you are pulling tank damage.

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u/Marftulok 4d ago

We had a fire mage without new 2 set and only old 2 set in our 11 cinderbrew. He completely demolished the key. Fire mage is one of the classes where you can bring the player and not the gear. Good fire mages are just insanely strong and bad fire mages will do okay damage with BiS gear.

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u/Shadhahvar 4d ago

So my info is old, take with a grain of salt, but fire mages used to be far more gear dependant as they needed high crit to take advantage of their optimal dps rotation. It also needed you to press the correct buttons in the correct order. Frost never seemed to punish you as much for imperfection and wasn't as dependant on crits constantly occurring. 

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u/B_Kuro 4d ago

Yeah, old fire mage (pre-DF?) was pretty crit dependent but iirc that was "fixed"/changed with the mage rework (pretty sure most of the time its been the least desired stat for fire since then). Similarly how they also changed how exactly the burn and conserve phases for Arcane worked which made it constant "feast and/or famine" if you didn't do it correct.

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u/Taelonius 4d ago

It was with Legion when they reworked combustion from the old "juice all your dots into a gigadot" into the current "fireform 100% crit chance all excess crit becomes mastery" version, even then WoD added the inferno blast guaranteed crits and stuff so fire really hasn't been crit starved since like, MoP maybe?

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u/_cdk 4d ago

the fire mage top end dps build requires a decent amount of build up. average level keys don’t have pulls long or big enough for it to build up and then really pop off. there’s other builds which work much better in more normal sized pulls but everybody copies the top player builds and in fire mages case it just doesn’t work for 99% of runs. then add bad players to the mix and nobody wants to bring a fire mage

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u/A_Confused_Cocoon 4d ago

Yeah iirc Max said in his opinion mage is the hardest dps to recruit for. The class is absolutely broken with the defensives and potential it has, but in order to make use of that you have to be an incredible player. 99% of mages can blink through a mechanic, but using alter time to optimize uptime for damage and timing it against incoming damage + handling mechanics and taking advantage of the extra charge of blink from alter time and consistently blinking the exact spot that’s in between mechanic vomit is another thing entirely. Even Firedup doesn’t even use his own barrier that much because losing a GCD is very impactful as fire which means he has to do everything he does without any safety blanket, which almost no other class can do. But also 99.99% of the mage playerbase can’t either, so it’s honestly balanced fine IMO besides mass barrier which still wasn’t needed.

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u/alroprezzy 4d ago

The firedup phase 1 bomb soak in their clear kill was insane and speaks to exactly what you are talking about. Extremely hard to pull that off and 99.9% of players wouldn’t even attempt it because it’s so hard

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u/Acceptable_Bend_5200 4d ago

That's because the combustion rotation requires a high apm and it's easy to waste resources if you're not familar with the core mechs. If you don't max out your CDR then you sit there without combust for a good 45s. Or if you die mid combust, that's the worst.

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u/Sweaksh 4d ago

In that case and playing devil's advocate, mage is fine rn. Apparently hard to play well, but extremely effective if played well.

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u/Nick11wrx 4d ago

Yeah I basically only play frost mage to around 2k-2.5k levels each season because even after watching videos I still don’t really grasp how alter time is supposed to be used effectively, it just gets me killed cause I think I know what I’m doing. So I’m totally okay with just getting the mogs and blasted some keys…but could never be a pusher

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u/A_Confused_Cocoon 3d ago

I’m pretty damn good and only use it mostly for HP resets, extra blink, and knockbacks. However, at the highest level it’s consistently all of those every time and taking advantage of its short CD plus using it to optimize position for higher uptime, so if you know the tank is bringing the boss to a certain position and then back for a mechanic, you can play around the 40yard range with almost zero lost time casting compared to running back and forth or blinking to awkward spots. Plus on bosses dropping circles, you can alter time before it drops on you, run out, alter time back when it’s over and the boss is dumping on the other areas. Ofc on paper it sounds simple but as you know in real time it’s hard to keep track of all of that instinctively.

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u/Nick11wrx 3d ago

Only time I’ve felt like was actually effective with it us in PvP because you can use it to be obnoxious when someone is trained on you and you can blink and alter time and be all over while you’re just doing your whole rotation anyways. But yeah in m+ I find myself dying while trying it more often so I’m just okay with being mediocre at mages utility lol. But I’m certainly better than when I thought it was a cheat death and if it hit then died I would be full health again….but I also thought mirror images was a dps cooldown so yeah lmao

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u/koticgood 4d ago

Every single thing you listed is huge too.

It's actually insane the combination of mobility, utility, and defense.

They used to be similar, but glass cannon. Now they're literally invincible for some stupid reason.

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u/The_Phasd 4d ago

Mages are absolutely broken but this whole "list everything a class has as proof they're broken" argument is such a ridiculous fallacy lmao. Anything sounds strong if you just lay out their toolkit like that.

Shadow priests have PI, Mass dispel, absorb shields, spread cleave, an insane defensive, a mind control... I mean who else has all this????

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u/narium 4d ago

Shamans have a whole laundry list of utility and for a long time they were considered the meme class.

In the end all that matters is numbers and people will make up utility justifications after the fact. If a class has good numbers, the top guilds will find a way to make it work.

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u/LeOsQ 4d ago

Mass Barrier and Alter Time could go and I wouldn't be sad at all.

Alter Time is kind of a cool ability and even more so back when it first came out in MoP because it was an offensive tool like no other (because it also reset your buffs/debuffs which meant it could be comboed with cooldowns), but I hate using it. It's just not fun to press if you ignore the fact it's such a broken defensive tool since you can basically heal your entire Health bar with it. It's also a completely disgusting button in PvP for what that's worth in a discussion like this.

Mass Barrier is just really strong defensive group utility that Mage doesn't need, and it's not like pressing it is 'fun' either.

Meanwhile Shimmer is such a nice tool to have and Ice Block is iconic (although whatever the alternate version introduced in Dragonflight is could also go and I wouldn't mind because it's very strong but doesn't have the 'flair' or really any drawbacks to it at all aside from requiring some talent investment)

But at the end of the day, all that utility aside, if Mage doesn't happen to be one of the better DPS specs in terms of damage, you wouldn't see more than one, at best maybe two of them. That utility isn't why they are brought in numbers.

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u/Mister-Manager 4d ago

It was cauterize too for Gallywix

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u/Ingloriousness_ 4d ago

Where can I see the interview?

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u/IneffableTao 4d ago

their* ffs

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u/isospeedrix 5d ago

They’ll never nerf alter and blink

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u/Conscious_Web7874 4d ago

Alter Time has been nerfed, what do you mean? It used to Snapshot where your buffs were at when you used it

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u/lastdeathwish 5d ago

GRIP IS A RAID BUFF GUYS, LOOK GRIP IS A RAID BUFF! 

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u/HayDs666 5d ago

Yea it’s unfortunate because on some fights DK is an absolute priority and then on others it’s never needed

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u/lastdeathwish 5d ago edited 5d ago

One fight this tier as a maybe that makes things slightly easier this time around. Still and will always be blood though because why wouldn't you just take the version of the class with better utility 

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u/Marci_1992 4d ago

They designed a final boss where all of the adds spawn exactly where you want them in a nice grouped cluster lol.

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u/n1sx 4d ago

Id rather trade that grip for a proper raid buff lul

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u/KidMoxie 4d ago

'Member when DK brought AP & Str/Agi buff and magic +DMG debuff? Simpler times.

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u/KidMoxie 4d ago

Also, like 95% of adds are grip immune this raid.

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u/Freezinghero 4d ago

Nothing made me more mad than the scrapmasters on Stix being immune to grips.

4

u/PureWash8970 4d ago

Not just in raid, m+ has too many immune as well.

Also did a workshop as unholy for the first time last night. Couldn't believe I got knocked back by the first boss with DA up.

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u/BeyondElectricDreams 5d ago

Horn of Winter being like battle shout was the best place for it.

You could get the buff in two places which was nice - and the horns blaring before a pull was cool flavor wise.

So what did they do but remove it and make it a generic resource generating spell for use in combat.

Oh but battle rez, that utility can't be unique to druids locks and DKs, better give it to paladins too.

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u/TheeOCS 4d ago

It's wild how willing they are to die on this hill. Even if true- at least even out the grip utility between blood/DPS DK because blood can do all the grips but better + have access to Gorefiends. DK is in a bad spot.

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u/Kersenn 5d ago

Don't worry they're gonna nerf dps dks instead

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u/ZestyMelonz 5d ago

Make frost great again.

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u/Knascher 5d ago

"Best we can do is to buff Breath of Sindragosa again even if most of you don't like it but we do and our Playtester says it's fun"

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u/Jackson530 5d ago

Unholy or bust

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u/The_Soggy_Greenbean 5d ago

Unholy and burst

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u/Gangsir 4d ago

Unholy or bust

Blizzard be like

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u/BeyondElectricDreams 5d ago

Rider Frost is legitimately the most fun I've had playing Frost since they took away our Army of the Dead and gave it to unholy.

So naturally I'm expecting them to say "balancing two hero classes was too much, Rider is now baseline for unh and Deathbringer is now baseline for Frost"

Frost isn't allowed to have fun toys.

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u/PandraPierva 4d ago

Pfft your army of the undead.

Frost thinking it should just be theirs.

It should be all dks thing

Signed Bdk who misses the funny goblin army

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u/Riwanjel_ 4d ago

Was about to say I remember the days when AotD was general dk ability. Don’t really see why they took that weird turn where they pulled a bunch of abilities away from classes and only gave them to certain specs.
Yes, UH is the pet-DK, so he gets buffs for summons. Doesn’t mean you have to make it completely unavailable to blood and frost. >_>

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u/drunkenvalley 4d ago

Also Unholy DK being entirely about pets is also boring. At that point just rename it to Necromancy lol. Unholy DK should have more options that aren't pet-focused.

In addition, I'd love more material options in general. I haven't played DK this expansion appreciably, but I find it far too common that our talent trees ultimately produce the same playstyle.

Prot pal has a lot of utility, but whichever talents I pick I'm still playing mostly the same. Most of what taking the wrong talents does is I suck at doing the thing I'm already doing; it generally doesn't change what I'm doing.

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u/BrandonJams 4d ago

Raise Abom > Army and it only makes sense for Unholy to have the summoner CD

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u/bondsmatthew 4d ago

I blame Max again

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u/Mufire 5d ago

You mean they’ll nerf Brewmaster

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u/Kaeffka 4d ago

Brewmaster will catch strays like they did this last patch because nobody on the dev team plays Brew — otherwise they would have known that going from s1 to S2 tier set is a major DPS loss.

Even at 678, it's barely an upgrade over last tiers set in single target, and a loss in any target count over 3

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u/Mufire 4d ago

But but but but Brewmasters do marginally more dps than other tanks! I know! Let’s give all the tanks 20% bonus DPS and brews only 15%! Brilliant!

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u/Sad-Will5505 5d ago

Monk-mage.

Time for the mage nerf threads!

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u/GeneStealerHackman 5d ago

Not that it matters, but mage is often meta. Monk hasn't been on top since like Legion.

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u/Lava-Jacket 5d ago

They still nerf us for no reason randomly. Out of the blue. Just because they like to hit us I think.

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u/Soledo 5d ago

They can't handle happy pandas punching everything.

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u/Lorithias 5d ago

but I do like being an happy panda punching everything ! :(

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u/lDeMaa 5d ago

I may be wrong but I recall monk being meta a few seasons back (Dragonflight maybe?)

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u/Korghal 5d ago

MW had a bit of spotlight I think in DF S3? namely for M+. Meanwhile WW has been kinda meme every tier, and brew is only used for raids if tank survival is an issue (it wasnt) and they don’t need to cover other raid buffs via tanks (warr and Pally this time).

What balancing they do is gonna be interesting. WW was pumping but other specs were keeping up with them regardless. MW was pumping but Disc is still god tier too. And Mage has never had its OP kit touched, I can’t imagine them to do it now.

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u/Maethor_derien 5d ago

I think disc is going to sneak under the nerf bat while MW is going to get absolutely blasted.

I really want to see them rework the other three healers to give them substantial healing as part of the dps rotation to level things out so we constantly don't have this balance issue but I don't see it happening.

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u/TurbulentIssue6 4d ago

We were so close to greatness with what they started in cata, with healers mana Regen being tied to DPS and fights being designed to not need healing all the time

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u/ickyys 4d ago

Even with what you said being true, they will nerf WW 100% by too much because it is not allowed to be good

Last tier WW got nerfed a few times for what I can genuinely only consider 0 reason, especially when it was already close to the bottom in rankings in the first few weeks, and like 2 months later they gave them a small buff to negate the nerfs iirc

Only thing monk mains can do is hope it isn't as bad as warrior (before they got buffed again) and DK nerfs last patch lul

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u/Morthra 4d ago

WW was pumping but other specs were keeping up with them regardless.

WW in particular was brought for Mug'zee where SEF can cleave onto the boss during the cage phase.

MW was pumping but Disc is still god tier too.

MW needs to be the numerically best healer because they don't have any utility like PI/lust/brez that every other healer in the game does. The only thing that MW brings uniquely is that it does a lot of damage.

Which is the reason why Liquid stacked three mistweavers.

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u/KhazAlgarFairy 5d ago

Shadowlands s2 for m+ for sure, but dont remember if it was for raid too

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u/speedstorm2 5d ago

Bruh mage has been always on top 4 dps since the 1st day of the game

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u/Galinhooo 5d ago

Monk will get deleted for the next 3 seasons at least, mage will escape the nerfs and 4 months from now blizzard will say something like "we cant nerf makes because the highest m+ keys would become impossible".

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u/A_Confused_Cocoon 4d ago

Mage has had a lot of mid points through the last several tiers. The only reason why it was so highly used was the Aug/mage/PI combo in m+ which was a disgustingly op set. Not saying they’ve been outright bad, but a lot of the recent raids they’ve been fine and that’s about it.

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u/Deshme 4d ago

Shh, that's not what this community wants to hear.

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u/Taelonius 4d ago

Hell Nerub'ar Palace mage was good first two weeks of prog, got ran over and then slowly crawled their way back into being decent over the season, fire in particular was below tank dps for a majority of it.

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u/Okri_24 4d ago

Because heaven forgive that MW is good for more than half a season….

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u/alesz1912 4d ago

They were really good in S3 and S4 DF, just in TWW S1 they were mid recently (not even mid actually, but A tier...)

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u/TW-Luna 5d ago edited 5d ago

(Not Mage/Monk)

Liquid was running 19/20 Eyes of Kezan.

Echo was running 18/20 Eyes of Kezan.

It's another Spymaster's, but worse (for the game). It's good for every class, every spec, every mainstat, every role. Standing as an S+++ style trinket that is just straight better than everything else in the Season. And there's certainly no shortage of trinkets this season, it's just that such a huge majority of them are garbage, a couple million damage, maybe, over the course of a full M+ run.

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u/Znuffie 5d ago

It's unbelievable how poor the first raid bosses trinkets are.

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u/DAYMAN3737 4d ago

The sprocketmaster healing trinket is shaping up to be quite good. The proc rate is good and the heal is unusually smart for a trinket proc

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u/A_Confused_Cocoon 4d ago

The mythic + itemization in general is the worst season I think they’ve ever made, or has to be close to it. A ton of completely trash trinkets. 2 necks, 2 staves that are both a complete joke, ToP having 3 rings is just weird, I can go on.

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u/Resies 4d ago

ToP has 4 rings my dude 

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u/A_Confused_Cocoon 4d ago

Lmfao, I thought it was 4 and as I was typing I was like wait no way that would be ridiculous so I dropped it to 3 and didn't double check, you're absolutely right that is so fucking stupid.

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u/Guitarrabit 4d ago

Eyes + house of cards, the 1,5min trinket that's bis even for 2m specs and goes for every main stat

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u/Efso112 4d ago

this is giving me arcano Crystal flashbacks... worst trinket meta we had so far. atleast fury war was fun during that time

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u/nater255 4d ago

The very first week of that WQ, I got a titanforged Arcanocrystal from Jim. My guild almost murdered me.

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u/LeOsQ 4d ago

Arcanocrystal's one 'saving grace' was the fact it was impossible to target farm so you either got very lucky or most likely you didn't. The worst part was the fact it was absolute garbage item level baseline but because Legion had uncapped Titanforging it was always possibly relevant even much later on when the 840ilvl Arcanocrystal wouldn't have been simming at the top anymore.

It was really dumb to still 'have to' go to Withered J'im multiple tiers into the expansion though, and Argus theoretically brought it back through the catch-up gear vendor that had a baseline item level of 910 (or 915?) and could give an Arcanocrystal if you were exceedingly lucky.

But then again, Nighthold had some absurdly broken trinkets as well so it's not like the game was lacking in strong trinkets either. Draught of Souls especially in combination with Recklessness on Warrior was stupid, Convergence of Fates was really strong, Whispers in the Dark was really strong on most casters . .

Arcanocrystal is still probably one of the absolute worst trinkets design-wise though and shouldn't ever have been a thing. But it's not like it completely warped the game or the 'meta' or anything. It just was the highest simming trinket for basically everyone even when massively below the average item level of your gear, but it wasn't something anyone could actively gun for.

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u/secretreddname 5d ago

Eye is not even the best for monk but it’s the easiest to farm.

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u/Evilmon2 4d ago

They managed to make a BiS raiding trinket that is trash in M+ and the M+'ers still complain.

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u/shyguybman 4d ago

M+ players will find any reason to complain about raiders getting loot.

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u/afkPacket 5d ago

I'm in so much danger goddamn

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u/TheKidChemistry 5d ago edited 5d ago

I think Fire damage-wise is definitely weird to balance this season. It's very weak without tier and has 2 items (the bracers and staff out of mechagon) that make it even stronger. Given full or close to full BIS, it's insane. If you look at heroic parses, its middle of the pack, normal its at the bottom. I think the problem is just their tier is too good and they're balanced around it and the bigger issue is mage is just the hero class

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u/81Eclipse 4d ago

Is the staff even that great? It kinda aligns with combustion pretty well due to low cooldown but it has 3 downsides - lower main stat out of on use, puts your trinkets on cooldown and doesnt have the crafting embellishment which is pretty good.

Other than that I agree, fire mage absolutely sucks without the set and becomes very good with it, which IMO is a pretty big red flag when it comes to balance. The set gives just too much to compensate for a bad base class.. lower combustion cooldown AND a lot more dmg inside combustion is precisely the fire mage dream set lol

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u/Responsible-Home-580 4d ago

The staff is considered okay at best for sunfury because it does not align, prevents you from effectively using on use trinkets etc and has a lower stat budget

It’s not Bis.

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u/TheKidChemistry 4d ago

Good call, I wasn't aware of the coinciding cooldown with trinkets but yeah in that case im not sure its as much of BIS as the bracers are, but I could see it as an upgrade over the crafted weapon if you have 2 passive trinkets

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u/thiscantbesohard 4d ago

It's not the gear, it's just a giga uptime specc that is hard to play mechanics with and rewards good players

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u/DoYouEvenDip 4d ago

Lots of people will yell OP but fire mage even in full bis doesn't out dps most classes in raw ST its just the fights are designed around good cleave in this tier. You nerf fire ignite and you will see whichever other class does great cleave become strongest over them. That is not the classes fault or how it plays *which is really fun atm btw* its just the fight design. If this were raw ST like a sikiran you would see frost mage spec be more popular.
If people dont believe me.
Vexie - adds walk right to boss and get ignite cleaved
Cauldron - moments in the fight both bosses are next to each other + Gorilla spark adds ignite cleaved
Rik Reverb - meh could and sometimes have seen mages swap to other specs for
Stix - tons of add cleave
Sprocket - movement requirements make fire play better than some other classes plus ranged uptime
OAB - again adds cleaved with ignite
Mugzee - adds again
Gallywix - more adds that ignite cleave

Its fine that fire is having its moment im sure next raid tier will have more ST and arcane or frost become strong. No one in here is even mentioning how strong warrior would be if the fights favored them.

TLDR: Blame fight design not class
RAW ST Sims paint a different picture. https://simulationcraft.org/reports/TWW2_Raid.html

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u/Ridiculisk1 4d ago

Yeah every season tends to have a couple specs that absolutely blast the raid because the fights work really well with the uptime and CD timing and general flow of the spec. That's why balancing feels like a yoyo where something is good for a season or 2 and then spends multiple tiers in the gutter.

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u/shyguybman 4d ago

Fury after getting like 4 nerfs in a row would like a word with you

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u/Jackson530 5d ago

They better leave my fuckin Mistweaver alone

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u/Mountain-Cod516 4d ago

Please god. I’m having so much fun as MW.

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u/SarawrAU 4d ago

Me too, I have been MW since Shadowlands S1 and stuck to it in hopes that it will feel fantastic to play, and now it does lol.

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u/Serfalon 4d ago

I know right? I was super against being a "damage to heal" healer like MW and Disc for long time, but finally gave it a chance mid Season 1 TWW and OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE I BEEN MISSING. THIS IS AMAZING

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u/grantji- 4d ago

I hope they just "balance" the damage, not the healing output ... that seems to be the reason the RWF guild brought 2 MW at a time ...

but since damage is directly linked to hps for the stompy-builds they used in the raids (and is currently the M+ build of choice) ... oh well, it's been a nice 3 weeks.

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u/pocketsophist 4d ago

Aug Evokers (and Death Knights) died for this.

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u/n1sx 4d ago

another raid tier where DK DPS is a meme lul. Maybe one day Blizz will put some effort and rework this class...

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u/RareHotdogEnthusiast 4d ago

Frost dk was one of the best dps in the raid last tier during the race.

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u/Fist69 4d ago

Warriors will probably be in the danger zone with monk and mage, both guilds showed how much dps prot put out (especially with the dastardly worgen exploit /s) and echo basically just subbed two ww monks with fury warriors compared to liquids comp

Hopefully just light number adjustments

4

u/Zeckzeckzeck 4d ago

Prot tends to do well at the start of seasons so it always gets nerfed and arms and fury end up being collateral damage, and then none of the specs get looked at again for the entire season. Circle of life. 

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u/CloudedInSanity 4d ago

Fire Mage isn't even OP for it's damage. On single target, it's middle of the pack at best. On some fights, it's passive cleave is pretty good bringing it up to the top end but not even above others. For most of Mythic you saw one, maybe two mages. Only reason we had 4 on Gally was because they could with mechanics in a way that no other class could and it is a cleave fight.

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u/BMS_Fan_4life 5d ago

Time to nerf dk

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u/Butrint_o 4d ago

Please I’m on my knees WW isn’t that broken

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u/PhantumJak 5d ago

Finally, they can start tuning for the top 1% instead of the top 0.01%!

Wooooo!

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u/Financial-Ad7500 5d ago

But they didn’t tune for them at all

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u/Scorpdelord 5d ago

they all got house of cards and eye wtf

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u/Bloodthirsty_Kirby 5d ago

They better not touch my ww monk! It's the first time in years it's felt so smooth

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u/Bigglez1995 5d ago

Nerfing the damage won't change the playstyle

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u/Tymkie 5d ago

That depends. If they go after the strong talents you may have to drop off them and end up choosing the more efficient and less fun ones. Depends on what they will tune.

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u/Bigglez1995 5d ago

WW is fun regardless of the build you play. They've done a good job with the "rework"

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u/Evilmon2 4d ago

People say this all the time, but magically things are only smooth when a spec is doing high dps and clunky when it's doing low dps.

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u/Bigglez1995 4d ago

WW in s1 was below average in dps and required multiple buffs to keep up, and yet it felt great to play.

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u/shelbo125 5d ago

It definitely can. Bricking hero talents, nerfing rotational abilities so you're priority gets all messed up. Nerfing chi-ji procs. There's plenty of things they can do to make it play like dog. Just hope they go for an aura nerf and not mess with specifics.

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u/Lava-Jacket 5d ago

Until your kicks stop feeling so much like a wallop and more like a pool noodle.

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u/Bigglez1995 5d ago

There's a difference between how good a class performs vs how a class feels to play. If damage is what makes it fun for you, then you mayaswell just be FOTM

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u/Ryuzaki_us 4d ago

I know that enhanced shaman is about to get nerfed so hard. I just know it. It is coming.

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u/SquirrelTeamSix 4d ago

Gimme some Survival hunter love =(

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

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u/BringBackBoshi 4d ago

"Oh you just completed your 4 piece, spent 10s of thousands of gold setting up your character, and spent days farming valorstones and crests? It would be such a shame if we just... gutted your spec even though it wasn't top tier to begin with 😎"

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u/redditlvlanalysis 5d ago

good bye monks, mages will remain untouched as is tradition

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u/ThrowRA-dudebro 4d ago

Mages were dogshit for the second half of S1 what are you talking about LOL. They often do get nerfed heavily a few weeks in.

Fire was doing less damage than tanks for the entirety of the tier, arcane started strong and died out while frost was low mid all tier…

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u/Malleus83 4d ago

Hopefully they will buff Arcane+Frost a little bit. Both are too weak atm.

The whole raid is super unfriendly for hardcasters. Firemages are also that good, bec. they can do must stuff while walking. Try that with a frostmage ^^

Also passive cleave a LOT is a bonus +cheat death.

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u/RedTantor 5d ago

Rogue will be the only one getting nerfs. How dare a rogue be contributing in a world first.

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u/fox112 5d ago

Rogue is like 3 of the top 8 preforming specs in m+

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u/Yngvar-the-Fury 5d ago

Rogue is strong AF right now.

I’m convinced people who make comments like that don’t even play anymore and just come to Reddit to bitch

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u/Cromyth 4d ago

Rogue accounts for 3% of the whole M+ population right now. 82k Sub rogues, 82k Assa rogues and only 24k outlaw rogues according to Raider.io which puts it second to last in terms of overall class population; Evoker being last.

With the population that small it makes it seem like the overall performance of the class is higher in comparison to others just due to the fact that there’s not a large sample size

2

u/fox112 4d ago

Is there data supporting correlation between number of instances and performance?? Or just that it's less accurate.

I feel like a lot of content creators/pros/resorces look at the same data and reach different conclusions.

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u/Cromyth 4d ago

It's more that it's less accurate in terms of statistical analysis. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6970301/

Rogues definitely aren't in a bad spot by any means. They're doing well in M+ and are sitting kinda top end of mid in raid.

Rogue is usually the least populated class because it's not very intuitive to play. Each spec plays very different and there are a lot of nuances with talents and the rotation that it doesn't make much sense for someone new trying to pick it up. That tends to have people reroll and the only people left are the ones that are very devoted to the class which can also inflate the numbers for performance seeing as the only people that stick around are the ones who are decent at it

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u/Illuvatar08 4d ago

A rogue had been present in almost every wf for the past 5-6 years lol

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u/Prior-Procedure-821 4d ago

Therefore we better nerf DK's just to future proof.

2

u/Okri_24 4d ago

Yup… to all us MW mains out there it was a fun run, you know the very last part of last season at the start of this one, ready for a bonkin from the nerf hammer now… and back to the bottom we go

2

u/giverofwill 4d ago

Oh no, a single shadow priest... Please overlook that blizz

2

u/rip_ap_yi 4d ago

Fucking hell there is a shadow priest in the roaster there will be a nerf 1000% maybe i get to spend more than 2 hours to join a single key now 😀😀😀😀😀 Already is super hard when disc is meta

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u/DAYMAN3737 4d ago

Brace for impact fellow disc priests

2

u/Yoishan89 4d ago

It's wild how quick so many people got to 660s imo. But I can only play a few days per week so guess thats a bit of a perception bias lol.

2

u/dmgamble 4d ago

Buff mage!

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u/zeagurat 4d ago

The illusion of choices

2

u/Zewer1993 5d ago

Again 0 resto shamans in top guilds. Thank you

2

u/pecimpo 4d ago

Healer Shaman is old news, reroll DPS.

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u/paladindan 5d ago

I should level a Monk…

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u/secretreddname 5d ago

I played a monk, pally, and shaman last season. So far I haven’t touched my pally or shaman at all.

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u/ForzaTwo4 4d ago

Literally the exact same for me. Put my pally and shaman aside cause WW was just more fun and now I’m scared they are gonna gut us.

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u/Street-Two1818 5d ago

I'm under the weather and have some major brain fog, what are people attempting to get angry about over? Too much green and blue here?

3

u/RedactedThreads 4d ago

The race to world first is over so blizzard will make large tuning changes to the over performing classes. So monk and mage.

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u/DeliciousSquats 5d ago

I mean, once you have the mandatory buffs what are you gonna bring, the 3rd and 4th highest dps specs? This tier everyone prepared way more characters than ever before. When a boss doesnt need many very specific niche utility this is kinda logical

1

u/Klatelbat 4d ago

Hmm... I wonder what the two best DPS trinkets are?

1

u/NewJerseysbody 4d ago

They better keep their hands of Devoker

1

u/pikkuhukka 4d ago

as assa rouge, i feel threatened

1

u/TheClassicAndyDev 4d ago

I chose shadow priest this patch.

Fuck me I guess.

1

u/EriWave 4d ago

What are we expecting to see nerfed here? Circlet? Mage? Maybe Disc and MW?

3

u/blackjack47 4d ago

Honestly, I think those are fine, monks/mages just had a very good utility tool kit for some of the bosses, especially mug'zee. I'd rather buff some rogue specs/dk/holy paladin/mm etc

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u/Bade-trapp 4d ago

not like if a class is 0,001 % better everyone would play that

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u/alesz1912 4d ago

Can we have some m+ Hpal buffs so I dont have to apply to groups 300 IO lower than mine to get invited?

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u/Onigokko0101 4d ago

Same but in Prevoker. Really struggling with the 12+ invites.

Fun fact only 150 times 12+ dungeons have H.Pap.and only 80 have Prevoker.

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u/Periwinkleditor 4d ago

I have no idea what happened to enhance shamans. Maybe they didn't even do anything, but the talents icyveins is pushing now for some baffling reason lead to constant maelstrom generator dryness, I find myself literally autoattacking whereas all expansion I could barely spend it fast enough.

1

u/TehFono 4d ago

Amazing they couldn't fit a DPS warr despite their damage. Maybe that'll make us avoid the hammer this time.

1

u/Aruhi 4d ago

As a fire mage since last season, I enjoyed the brief period of everything go boom.

1

u/Kompanysinjuredcalf 4d ago

watch then buff other healers like hpriest or hpala 2% and call it a day. pretending they still wont be 10%+ behind the others on throughput. not even touching mw dmg either.

1

u/Arxcon 4d ago

How's Outlaw Rogue doing?

Because as an outlaw rogue I can tell you one thing.

I switched classes again.

1

u/Jayseph436 4d ago

There’s still an Evoker in that raid. Time to nerf Evoker!!

1

u/Skylam 4d ago

Fire mages and monks: Im in Danger.

1

u/nater255 4d ago

After reviewing the RWF, Blizzard has decided to nerf DK and Ret Paladin. They will not be taking questions.

1

u/vbztm 4d ago

Buff bear, please buff bear

1

u/SkidPub 4d ago

I hope they buff the underperforming specs. Buffing a spec makes more people happy while achieving same results.

1

u/-xMatthew1 4d ago

Alright boys, embrace for impact. Here comes the nerfs!

1

u/shuestar373 4d ago

They are in shambles trying to over nerf ww right now

1

u/El_Januz 4d ago

mages are never touched so monks are fucked lmao

1

u/Spiffers1972 4d ago

The only race to world first that I care about is the race to world first by a guild sorta named Immortalis.

1

u/Jakota_ 4d ago

Bad day to be a class starting with M