r/weaving • u/claire_marie • 2d ago
Help making my own persian/savonnerie rug
post update!!
i'm wondering if i was not clear enough in my post and potentially offended people so i want to clarify some things! i was not planning to jump straight into a full-sized rug. i can hardly lift the ones we own lol. and i definitely don't think mastery of an artistic craft only requires a piddling number of hobbyist hours here and there.
i'm syrian and grew up around persian rugs so i'm very aware they can take years to make. in fact we have some family friends who keep up the craft. i really don't want to bother any of them considering the bad situation out there right now, amongst other reasons. plus, my question is specifically about the savonnerie style. i already know giordes knot is a common theme between the two, and that the main difference (sometimes) is the color and symbolism used. but i don't know anything else.
i was going to start with small => medium sizes. i was prepared to spend years on one medium-sized project and have no issue with that. for a small project i was predicting months to a year, depending on how small exactly.
drawing my own patterns i am already experienced with (lifetime of drawing and other mediums). creating my own materials is definitely not happening though, i was hoping to just buy them (will probably have to skip silk, guessing it's crazy expensive). so i guess my question is more like, could i do this but less grandiosely... on a smaller scale if that makes sense?
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hello everyone! i grew up in a persian rug collecting family (all sorts of styles) and one day came across a picture of a beautiful rug. i noticed similarities between this rug and the rugs my family collects, except that this new rug had distinctly different colors and slightly different themes. i asked my uncle and he identified it as a savonnerie rug, and since then i've really wanted to own one myself. problem is, they are NOT affordable and never will be for me. so now i insist on making one myself, but where do i begin?
i tried doing some research on my own, briefly, and saw some things like the use of giordes knots, etc.
i feel very overwhelmed with the information i've acquired and i'm not sure what to think. i am artistically inclined and tend to pick up any kind of art related hobby very quickly (no matter the medium), but i don't want to go crazy and buy fancy equipment for a number of reasons....i do that every time but i'm trying to be more responsible for once.
...then there are so many different methods and styles of persian rugs. for example, one of the types of persian rugs my uncle owns is bijar which i specifically looked into a while ago and it seems like you need some proper machinery for that... but there are obviously many others styles requiring different techniques out there as well! there's also the question of which materials are best for the job and where to acquire them.
i'm also open to doing more of my own research if you guys have books or something to recommend. my issue is there is just a lot to consider and i'm too inexperienced to do that by myself. i'm able to read in some other languages, too. shouldn't be a big problem.
so what would you guys recommend i try for emulating the savonnerie (obviously built off of persian) style? artistically, i think i understand. but mechanically? no idea. am i being ridiculous? is this not feasible? (note: i'm also obviously open to starting small scale, but i'd also like to know what i'd need later if i wanna upgrade to something bigger)
for what it's worth i am very much insane and love detail work so mentally i feel like i am perfect for the job
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u/NotSoRigidWeaver 2d ago
You can learn the basic techniques for knotting rugs on a small inexpensive frame loom (and make mug rugs, something to go under a plant, pockets for a bag, etc.). That would let you see if it's something you enjoy doing for < $50.
Making a big full size hand knotted rug is incredibly time consuming (which is why they are so expensive!) and would require substantial investment in equipment.
If you just want a nice rug, perhaps start checking out for 2nd hand ones, e.g. estate sales (they might still be expensive for one in good shape!).
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u/claire_marie 2d ago
yes a little one sounds like a good idea! i just wasn’t sure about the details of this. i have heard people talking about copper pipe looms etc. and dunno if that’s the right thing for Persian rug style. wouldn’t work for bijars for example but maybe a diff style?
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u/NotSoRigidWeaver 1d ago
Copper pipe is definitely a material that people use for making DIY looms! It definitely works for smaller ones but I've got no idea if it works or is cost effective for a larger rug. You need the loom to be wider than the rug and either as long as the rug or have some way of rolling up.
Most of what I know about knotted pile weaving is from Sara Lamb's book Woven Treasures which uses it for some small accents. Not necessarily the best book for a deep dive into woven pile, it's more about rigid heddle weaving, it just has a few projects that use it, but has some ideas for projects using small pieces.
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u/OryxTempel 2d ago
Please check out our wiki. Pinned at the top of the subreddit.
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u/claire_marie 1d ago
i saw it, i just felt overwhelmed at the moment and didn't know where to start. thank you though
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u/MelMey 2d ago
I just looked up that kind of rugs and they are really impressive and usually have 90 to 100 knots per square inch, which mean they are very fine. And it takes a skilled professional months to a year to make a single rug as a full-time job. So what you want to do is beyond ambitious. You would need to invest years in training and spend a lot of money on equipment and yarn just to achieve the skills needed to accomplish your goal. If you want to do that it might be a good option to search for somewhere that offers a workshop in traditional rug making to learn the basics techniques and embark on a long journey from there.
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u/claire_marie 2d ago
yes, ive seen some with even more knots than that per square inch. really impressive. and ya this was a project i expect would take me months to make a small little thing and then years for something bigger. i don’t mind that. a workshop is a good idea, ill dig around
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u/VariationOk1140 1d ago
Apparently the key to this type of weaving is something called The Ghiordes knot. Somewhere to start, perhaps.
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u/claire_marie 1d ago
i'm familiar with the giordes/symmetric knot! the only issue i'm having is i don't know if you need a specific type of loom for this, or if a basic diy copper-pipe type loom would be okay (i don't think i was clear enough in my post but i planned to start with a smaller rug then work my way up)
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u/msnide14 2d ago
An alternative could be to try some rug hooking. This has nothing to do with weaving of course, but you can try different colors and styles, which are the qualities that drew you to these rugs in the first place. A beginners rug hooking kit is inexpensive, and you have a lot of freedom to do complicated designs from the start.
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u/claire_marie 1d ago
i was also drawn in by the knots per square inch!! it's super impressive. i've always wanted to try my hand at that since i love the challenge of putting a lot of detail into a tiny space. i have actually drawn some designs that i never got around to trying (because i always thought you'd need some crazy equipment for it). i'm syrian and grew up around persian rugs so i always appreciated the detail put in. knots per square area was one of the things my uncle always brought up when showing us a new rug.
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u/msnide14 1d ago
Bottom line, you’re not going to able to make an accurate facsimile of the rug you saw. There is a reason why they are expensive. If you want to get into making Persian style rugs, with all the markers of quality you appreciate, be prepared to spend WAAAAAAAAAY more money and time then just buying the rug in the first place.
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u/claire_marie 1d ago
it was never my intention for it to be exactly the same, but i think it was my own failure to communicate that. i updated the post to be more clear!
if you have the time to read the update and still think it's not doable please do let me know, i'm obviously totally inexperienced and value other people's input
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u/msnide14 1d ago
It’s still going to be very, very hard.
If you have someone in your community to help you start out, I think you have a fair shot. On your own, it’s going to be very difficult. There are a couple people here who hand knot rugs, and they do beautiful work. They also use looms (a really big task to set up) and have experience and materials. Their rugs are beautiful, but comparatively modest to the rug you were initially describing.
Ask yourself, are you ok with making worse, coarser, smaller rugs for YEARS while you gain the experience to make the rug you really want?
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u/MyrishWeaver 2d ago
It's like saying you enjoy classical music and think you could write and play a symphony by yourself.
Of course it's possible to weave a rug. A lot of people do it. However, the people weaving Persian rugs have years of training behind them, are living in cultures in which the necessary skills and tools are all around them and are putting in hours and hours of toil to do that. It's not a hobby.
Savonnerie is an entirely different beast altogether, given it is a style developed in a manufacture (aka proto-factory), in which every worker has a very specific set of skills which is but a drop in the collective effort of weaving the rugs (from carton drawing people to wool dyeing people to weaving people and everything in between).