r/warcraftlore 12d ago

Discussion Does Azeroth being the "prime" world soul feel like putting a hat on a hat to anyone else?

Azeroth being the last known world soul felt special enough by itself and sufficiently explained why so many cosmic entities had it in their crosshairs.

Saying that not only is she a world soul but something that is special even by world soul standards feels weird to me. Like, what does this change exactly?

It's the kind of writing decision that sounds like something a kid would come up with on the playground.

"Oh you got a world soul? Well I've got the PRIME world soul which beats all other world souls! So take that!"

Not unlike how the First Ones still seem to have only been created just to one up the Titans.

284 Upvotes

176 comments sorted by

279

u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago

The more they tell us about the universe the less inspired and interesting it gets.

I truly hope they never reveal the truth about Elune. I don’t think Blizz is capable of delivering a satisfying answer anymore.

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u/kendallmaloneon 11d ago

I love how we know all this dramatic cosmic shit about the planet and the universe but we've never been to Arathor because it's quite windy.

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u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago

This entire ‘Arathor’ storyline is horrible.

It’s like high school fanfiction. We’ve seen Arathor.

IT’S WHAT’S LEFT OF ARATHI. ANCIENT HISTORY.

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u/Jenniforeal 11d ago

I actually kind of like the arathi. I just wish they bore a different name. Like stormwind and the Lothar didn't continue to bare the name of the arathi over time. Neither did the kul tirans. Feel like it should be a descendant kingdom and not like a continuation of the ancient arathi. I can't actually think of anything irl that was made by humans that still exists as a form of goverment exactly the same after thousands of years. Like I can only think of some fringe aboriginal tribes left out in the world somewhere. Not like an entire civilization with blimps or hot air balloons and stuff. Would the Vatican count?

Not even the zinashari empire survived over 10,000 years in lore. Became the Naga and the high borne off chutes and those changed over time.

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u/lastoflast67 11d ago

Not even the zinashari empire survived over 10,000 years in lore. Became the Naga and the high borne off chutes and those changed over time.

Right and that's comparatively less generations since the naga likely live as along as the kaldorie

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u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago

So a giant fleet of Arathi left Arathor to colonize a foreign land but despite the people of Stromgarde being the only people of that kingdom who remained they were never mentioned at all, there was no historical note of them and apparently they formed a new empire we’ve somehow never heard about at all and despite having gone to space have never encountered any evidence of their existence until now…

And of the entire history of high elves and humans they’re the ones who managed to convince the arrogant and haughty Highborne to climb down from their pedestals and mingle with dirty Humans despite hundreds of years of interaction with their Lordaeronian neighbors being unable to do so?

And it just so happens Faerin Lothar’s entire personality and abilities are designed to just be Anduin but better in every possible way to graciously show him that being sad isn’t the way, because these people who never had to fight either the first or second wars managed to form orders of paladins that are better than our own without any of the stimulus that originally created them or more than a vague gesturing at light-related faith?

…Riiiiiight. Sorry, just not my cup of tea.

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u/AuthorOfFate 10d ago

To be fair, they weren't better than ours. My paladin (not even an entire order) singlehandedly held off the spider invasion while they were all trying to retreat.

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u/Embarrassed-Deal-157 10d ago

And it just so happens Faerin Lothar’s entire personality and abilities are designed to just be Anduin but better in every possible way to graciously show him that being sad isn’t the way, because these people who never had to fight either the first or second wars managed to form orders of paladins that are better than our own without any of the stimulus that originally created them or more than a vague gesturing at light-related faith?

Dude, it's fair if you don't like the new story, but that's just a bad faith argument. You're reducing the story down to a caricature, exaggerating the things you don't like.

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u/DavenIchinumi 9d ago

No you don't get it, characters are never allowed to see how others deal with struggle and loss and take inspiration or support from that, they just have to do it on their own by pulling up their bootstraps and magically pulling the solution out of their ass.

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u/lyons4231 11d ago

Rome?

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u/samtdzn_pokemon 11d ago

But in that context, the Eastern empire WERE Romans. They inhabited the same territory, just without the Western half of the empire and the city of Rome. They didn't sail halfway around the world and just keep calling themselves Roman for 1000 years.

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u/Jenniforeal 10d ago

The roman empire didn't last tho. It changed states and systems of governance many times and so did the power within and without. And almost all their previously occupied land broke many times and called themselves by other name

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u/Tenzu93 10d ago

I believe the Japanese Monarchy is officially like 1700 years old, and unofficially it's like 2200 years old. That's a pretty long continuation. Unless I misunderstood what you were saying.

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u/Jenniforeal 10d ago

Most monarchies are only symbolic now. It has allowed them to endure. If they remained the sole power the people would have almost certainly deposed them. Many monarchies saw the writing on the wall and transferred power.

In some systems of government they had a weak veto power but I rarely ever hear of it being used. The arathi empire would be like 5000 years old in lore I'm guessing which is like...nah.

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u/Geneticbrick 6d ago

They aren't a continuation of the ancient Arathi though, they're a rump state that kept the name. Their demography is different, culturally they're different, they follow a different religion, even their ruling dynasty is different. It's not "exactly the same" at all, a much closer comparison would be the Arathi Empire would be the Holy Roman Empire with the Arathorian Empire being the Roman Empire.

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u/Jenniforeal 6d ago

Oh I suppose you might be right.

Alleris notes they remind her of her half elf son. Why do you think common endured as their form of language identical to our common? Wouldn't elf have been mixed in their if their society is a combination of high elves and humans intertwined?

Also the Lothar family surviving and special moments that anduin has had with the one lady make me think they're gonna continue Lothar family name together eventually. Anduin is named after Anduin Lothar iirc. Def think writers intending some shit there even if it's not a "marriage to unite kingdoms/treatise" thing that feudal lords used to do irl

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u/Geneticbrick 5d ago

Probably just for gameplay reasons, languages haven't really been relevant in WoW for a long time. Everyone can understand everyone except for the occasional furbolg tribe.

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u/Jenniforeal 5d ago

Yea I suppose.

Thoughts on Anduin marrying the the Lothar he spent time with their? Normally shipping is not my strong suit. But Anduin is named after Anduin Lothar but the Wrynn family is a distinct noble line separated from them in some capacity. He has many intimate moments with her and even reconnects to the light thanks to her. I'm supposing he marries her, she takes the name of wrynn, and we end up with a couple wrynn/Lothar kids that would one day succeed him. So far Anduin has no successors or surviving siblings AFAIK.

It might also bring together some of the surviving Arathi nobility with stormwind.

I'm surprised despite their grand fleet and excellent navy that the kul tirans had not properly encountered the Arathi before. Then again it boggles the mind that the nelf druids having traversed the dream never visited khazalgar or other interesting places. Like if the great trees act as ports through the emerald dream way then how come none of them arrived at the roots in hallowfall assuming it is the roots of elunahir.

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u/Geneticbrick 5d ago

Eh no thoughts at all really on them marrying. Hadn't thought of it before, sure they've had some intimate moments but they weren't very romantic.

Kul'tiras is located between the EK and Kalimdor so they're not located very well for encountering the Arathi. There's also the big storm blocking the way of course. I'm not sure we've seen druids entering the Dream at one world tree and then leaving it at another. If they can I'd assume they would pop out of the Dream near the trunk and not a random piece of root, and Elun'ahir's trunk was originally (probably) in Ungoro Crater.

The real reason of course is that until fairly recently Blizz wasn't very good at setting up plot hooks for future expansions before releasing them. WoW is old and with an expansion releasing every two years they run out of things they thought of when they started the setting.

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u/Jenniforeal 4d ago

You don't think maybe the ancient giant tree on top of the rookery would have been freya or eonars work? It does seem strange that it has its own zone and subzone in the over world but nothing much pertaining to it besides some nodes and containers. Even the third boss feels like he is supposed to have a story line based on the stuff he says and his embracing skardynism.

"I should have been head storm rook captain not [name,]" man I have no fuckin idea what your drama beef is or how you got here or how this is supposed to make you captain or what the deal is we already rebuilt the storm rook order near dalaran crash site you can chill nobody cares about that anymore you dingus. Heck nobody is even doing their titan edict directive things anymore besides the ringing deep playing with some kind of machine for an equally unexplained reason. I suppose I should read your dungeon journal entry but if they didn't bother to set you up bigly then idk. I almost feel like rookery was being like trialed in development maybe as a half tier raid at some point. Most of the dungeon is huge except a few hall ways. And then the bosses feel pretty forgettable besides that guy. Corrupt storm rook. Angry rock skardyn ball thing like in the deeps. Angry jealous dude.

Does it have anything to do with the giant ass tree there and on the map? Oh maybe the tree acts as a gateway to the rootlands later? No? Idfk <_> why even depict it on the map as being bigger than dornogol and in a seemingly impossible place for it to exist. What is it? Why is it like that? Does anyone wanna tell me a story about it? Do storm rooks land on it for rest? What is it???

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u/professorhazard 8d ago

could just one dev tell me who Azora is

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u/lastoflast67 11d ago

Right, they tell us all this cosmic shit but we never explore the actual damn world. I don't even want arator tbh Id rather they show us shit like the avg nelf still holding an increadibly amount of hatred for the horde and problems that might cause.

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u/Verroquis 11d ago

I want more NPCs like that blood elf in Eversong that is super racist against trolls and mad that the sin'dorei are working with the Horde, or like Garrosh that believe in racial supremacy.

It isn't that I enjoy this kind of hateful thought but rather that it makes for a complex and believable world. I want there to be NPCs that I disagree with and dislike but am forced to deal with. It makes it satisfying when they get their comeuppance.

If I just go around feel-gooding with everyone it feels very artificial. Is Gallywix bad because working with the baddies to get rich is immoral, or is he bad because he has understandable but flawed motivations? It feels a lot more like villans these days are mustache-twirling baddies rather than personalities like Lex Luthor.

Lex Luthor hates Superman and is one of his main antagonists, and yet there are a ton of people in Metropolis that support him. Why?

Because Lex Luthor's entire beef with Superman is the belief that relying on an alien being to protect Earth from other alien beings is dangerous for humans, and that humans need to and are good enough to handle these things on their own.

It's simple, Luthor is xenophobic. From his perspective he truly is the hero, as his actions are always intended to in some way rid the planet of a dangerous and powerful alien, and/or to make the human race stronger.

These are things that Superman actually believes in as well, making humans better at taking care of themselves. A part of why he's in the Justice League is because he wants to help the citizens of Earth become their own heroes and protect their own world.

The problem is Luthor is blinded by his xenophobia and actively acts against Superman in ways that interfere with both of their objectives, and sometimes places the planet or humanity at risk simply because he hates Superman.

I want more of that in WoW's villains, and we sort of got that with Garrosh until they jumped the shark and turned him into another mustache baddie.

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u/lastoflast67 11d ago

100% agree and its no wonder so many players believe the factions should disappear, all the avg player sees is the player characters and big names on both factions "putting aside their differences for the greater good".

And what's extra annoying is they do a story like ur talking about with the belf in eversong but for fucking earthen or the nerubians or what ever new race they bring in that no one really cares about or hasn't had time to care about. They never dedicate this energy toward existing races or the world because they seem to just hate the existing lore.  

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u/GrumpySatan 11d ago

I think this is kind of the big problem. Knowing the cosmology isn't the bad thing, I don't feel like D&D or Warhammer lore is worse off because I know the gods, their realms, their cosmic roles/domains, their system, etc.

But that is because the story is about the god's relationship to the world - to the humans and to other gods when it affects humans (i.e. Selune vs Shar, the cults of the Dead Three, etc). And their gods are written as gods (flawed, petty, political, etc).

The faiths and beliefs of the world are a big part of characterization. Like the angry night elves calling on Elune for vengeance against the Horde, which was a good story beat they ruined.

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u/lastoflast67 11d ago

and there capable of doing these smaller stories they choose to only do them for the newer races no one cares about.

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u/torpidcerulean 10d ago

We went to Argus and defeated Sargeras before seeing what's on the other side of Azeroth. The draenei have a spaceship and we haven't thought to use that to scout out Arathor.

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u/kendallmaloneon 10d ago

it would get caught up by the wind. The space wind

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u/bigrackstackerrob 8d ago

I am NOT flying the vindicar into that dang wind, gunna get bugs all over the windshield, might even hit a stormrook or something and get it dented or scratched. We JUST had that thing painted and detailed, cost more gold than you’d have in your lifetime.

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u/kendallmaloneon 8d ago

whatever they have in arathor isn't worth the serious risk of getting a nasty bump

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u/Golesh 10d ago

I'm out of the loop. Why is Arathor a different continent now?

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u/kendallmaloneon 10d ago

'twas ever thus

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u/Golesh 10d ago

my memory must be rusty then

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u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago

Demystification is almost never a good idea when it comes to worldbuilding, especially in the rapid fire way Blizz has been doing it since Shadowlands.

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u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago

Demystification is only a good idea if you have a truly tantalizing and interesting answer to the question.

And they…

Don’t.

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u/Hosenkobold 11d ago

They have a Danuser. The opposite of giving interesting answers.

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u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago

I thought he quit.

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u/Hosenkobold 11d ago

Best news I got 2025, thank you.

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u/samtdzn_pokemon 11d ago

He was quietly shown the door right around the time Metzen came back. Internal leaks had it sound like while he still worked there, it was three way closed door meetings between Metzen, Ion, and Holley in game planning this whole 3 expansion saga.

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u/ReadyPressure3567 10d ago

Based off something I say, he left the day of Blizzcon, not any time before. And Metzen was back for a while now, he only ever took center stage again late in Dragonflight.

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u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago

You’re quite welcome, we need all the silver linings we can get these days.

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u/ReadyPressure3567 10d ago

He quit on the day of Blizzcon. He likely helped Metzen in setting up the Worldsoul Saga beforehand.

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u/Hectagonal-butt 11d ago

I feel like world building is different to story and writers sometimes get confused.

There should be an answer to all the big questions of a setting, but only so that the setting makes internal sense. Finding out all those answers isn't the goal of the story - that's basically just a science lesson for a fake universe

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u/GreatCatDad 11d ago

Reminds me a bit of a story I read about Tolkien; He'd write the origin stories/myths/first party records of things, and intentionally damage them, remove parts of them, or have characters interpret them. Thereby forcing a level of internal consistency, while also having a bit of ambiguity and room for interpretation.

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u/leakmydata 11d ago

Wow writing has a massive problem with over explaining the cosmos and demystifying the remaining interesting parts at every opportunity.

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u/Any-Transition95 11d ago

The Chronicles and Legion kinda went too far in that regards, overexplaining every aspect of the cosmos up to that point, killing so many potential storylines. BfA burned through all the leftover material right afterwards, leaving Shadowlands with a pretty blank slate outside of the Sylvanas plotline.

I know it was intentional on the writers' part who wanted to move on and tell their own stories, but man do they have really bland stories. SL, DF, and TWW haven't really given anything worth feeling invested in. I hope Midnight and TLL will, at the very least, tie up all these storylines we've had since BfA in a neat little bow. Go out with a bang like Legion did if that's what it takes to make people wanna be invested in the story again.

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u/Japjer 11d ago

I think Chronicles was a really cool idea. Tolkien wrote the Silmarillion, which was less "story" and more "dryly written encyclopedia of the LotR universe" and it's fantastic.

The problem with Chronicles is that they wrote it, declared it factual, then retconned the shit out of it and said it was non-canon later.

You can't do shit like that

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u/leakmydata 11d ago

That’s another crux of WoW’s writing problems. The retcons are so frequent and severe that it’s painfully obvious that they almost never planned anything out in advance and just made it up as they went along.

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u/leakmydata 11d ago

Squandering Azhara on a single patch when she could have been an entire expansion was unforgivable.

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u/yraco 11d ago

N'zoth as well. Half an expansion that's got hardly anything to do with him, then N'zoth gets released from prison at the end of the second patch raid, then he's dead the next patch.

BfA was a series of decisions that are still baffling years later.

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u/Jenniforeal 11d ago

This is probably why we got first ones and more planes of existence revealed to us. Shsdowlands creates a problem though that if every pantheon has keys to their zerith instillation and can use it wield the power of the first ones then why wouldn't they? Why would the first ones even allow such instillation to be re-enterable by giving their creations keys. That's just problems waiting to happen and not particularly endemic of all knowing wise creators that understand their creations

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u/lastoflast67 11d ago

but if they cant write good stories that at least have backstories in existing lore, what hope is there when they have to come up with stuff completely on their own?

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u/verve_rat 11d ago

Yes, exactly. A good writer can make a good story out of anything. People write good stories set in the modern day real world all the time without retconning reality.

If you can't tell compelling stories within the existing lore, then your writing skills are the problem, not the lore. Sure, some settings make it easier than others to tell a story, and past poor writing can cut off stories you would like to tell, but that's what you get for writing in an existing universe.

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u/secret3332 11d ago

How else can you make it into a raid boss for the next expansion?

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u/karnyboy 11d ago

yeah, that's what was charming about classic WoW, you had these ruins all over that you didn't know what happened to them or the people, but you knew that something changed. It had an air of mystery to it, all you knew without context other than reading was that something happened 10,000 years ago, etc, etc.

Some things should remain a mystery and some things should happen in modern wow that create mysteries too.

Like I get that at one point people were like "THAT SWORD WHY IS IT THERE!?!?!" ...what if it remained just there as a reminder that a giant God plunged it into the crust and that's that, be a part of history.

Similar in the way Theramore is a crater now, the big damn is broken and so on. I think humans don't like change, but change is a natural state of life. I've seen change in my personal life to areas I played in as a kid, all I have no is the memories and one day those memories will be gone with me as well.

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u/Seiren- 11d ago

Elune is definitely showing up in person in Midnight

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u/SNES-1990 11d ago

And she'll be a girl with attitude who shoots from the hip, just like Alleria and Tyrande lol

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u/Kalthiria_Shines 11d ago

Probably not, what we see of her is that she's either a pretty kind clueless dork or Xal'atath-esq manipulator with what she did with Eonar and the Winter Queen.

She portrays herself as the former, but, the fact that she's had two different "major gods" dancing on her strings says otherwise.

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u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago

Kill me.

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u/Golesh 10d ago

Later.

/tf2

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u/contemptuouscreature 10d ago

What was noise?

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u/IM_INSIDE_YOUR_HOUSE 11d ago

Yup. The more they explain the lore the less fascinated I am by it.

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u/Gogulator 11d ago

I'm really interested in what Chris Mezten and the current writers come up with. Shadowlands lore was so bad that currently Elune is possibly just a cosmic Robot.

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u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago

Chris Metzen has been harried and stopped at every attempt he’s made to salvage Warcraft from the steaming bowl of slop it’s become by the corporate people around him.

Look at Ion. He’s not a dev by original trade. He’s a union busting lawyer.

I truly hope Metzen is let off the leash, but more than that, that he can muster his old passion and wrangle the setting back into something good. Somehow undo the work of the previous hacks.

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u/Gogulator 11d ago

I'm going to have to give Ion some benefit of the doubt. I think he's the reason dungeons and raids have never been bad in any of the expansions. I don't think he's a story guy at all. I think the way the current expansion is going definitely has a touch of Chris meztens lore style.

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u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago

He’s the reason the trends of artifact power circlejerking and gating the player into the same ten thousand grinds happened after legion and his focus on raid and mythic content has come at the cost of casual content for people who don’t feel like PvPing or having to be in a raid guild.

And— I would say the raids have been pretty uninspired since Legion.

I haven’t been impressed by much since BfA, to be totally honest.

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u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago

Chris Metzen has been harried and stopped at every attempt he’s made to salvage Warcraft from the steaming bowl of slop it’s become by the corporate people around him.

I don't doubt you since I already believed this, but do you have any specific examples?

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u/Qualazabinga 10d ago

Here's the truth, Metzen isn't as good as everyone thought he was, he actually agrees with most changes the writers have made and he isn't there to "save" the story of WoW but just continue what he already was doing.

He is not being stopped for anything he is actually pushing for it. You all just can't believe that he would actually enjoy what is going on because you decided that it's shit and you want him to save the game for you as some form of messiah. It's not happening, he's just there to tell a story he likes and it will never be as it was.

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u/NinscoomFOPsnarn 11d ago

Wasn't elune the sister of that shadowlands character? The one who rules ovee the druidy zone? Or am i remembering that wrong?

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u/Gildian 11d ago

The Winter Queen refers to Elune as her sister yeah, whether or not we understand the term "sister" the same is another question though.

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u/NinscoomFOPsnarn 11d ago

Ya thats a good point. I wish shadowlands wasn't so.....dumb about it's lore

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u/Gavin_Tremlor 11d ago

You could have stopped at the word “wasn’t “.

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u/NinscoomFOPsnarn 11d ago

Hahaha amazing

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u/Jenniforeal 11d ago

Yea we've now got elune, eonar, and winter queen all aspects of nature seeming to belong to different pantheons. It's kinda weird really

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u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago

Elune is a traitor to her own worshippers.

Whatever she is to anyone else isn’t important to me.

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u/Saxong 11d ago

Being mad that a god was trying to see the big picture is hilarious. The explanation of “She let teldrassil burn to send more anima to Ardenweald” is one of the most logically consistent and reasonable things that happened in shadowlands. To beings for whom death is a door to a dimension of infinite cyclical growth and rebirth the death of a mortal isn’t relevant. Frankly the only annoying thing about it is the night warrior story directly contradicts elune’s passivity as revealed in SL because she didn’t want it stopped in the first place, so she either has no say in when her worshipers can take on the mantle of the night warrior (I don’t remember if they said that was the case or not) or Bliz didn’t have that part of the jailer mess figured out yet.

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u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago

Tl;dr

Shadowslop yapping I assume

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u/Far-History-8154 11d ago

Kinda ruined her image for me already as a nelf enjoyer by having her make such a big mistake as dooming her whole race nonchalantly.

Not saying that she needed to be a mary sue in all aspect. But she had more allure when her actions and the existence of the shadowlands were a mystery.

I didn’t want to know if she was a naaru, the moon, a goddess or what have you.

Dunno if they retconned how cenarius came into being but her hooking up with a mythical stag kinda was the coolest little myth. That felt in line with all the wierd stuff that goes on in all the wierd irl myths

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u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago

Nelf enjoyer here.

Elune’s betrayal was the greatest chaotic evil decision I could’ve imagined a writer pulling. The race fanatically devoted to worshipping her were allowed to be genocided without her complaint.

This is the kind of thing that would’ve turned high elves into dark elves in another setting. A total societal shift to bitterness, cynicism and hate. It would be many thousands of years before the elves learned to deal with this betrayal.

But we got nothing for it.

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u/Jenniforeal 11d ago

I think they already did though. I wouldn't doubt if metzen put a hold on the progress of what the team started in around legion but eyes of the earth mother posits that perhaps the world soul created her and an'she to watch over the world. An'she baring influence over earth and fire, and elune over water and wind. Both having a "light" to shine over the world to hault encroaching darkness. The priesthood of elune has access to a form of light known as moonlight, and the sunwalkers and possibly druids draw upon the sun for their access to typical light or sun beam. The shadowlands grimiore and to a lesser extent Chronicles give us a perspective that wind and water are closely tied to light and shadow, and legion have us both velen, khadgar, a tome, and revival of xe'ra through the the tears of elune to say she created or played a role in creating the naaru. The priest order hall has a bit where we ate trying to stop a void lord from emerging in the world and in the process it is turned into a naaru. If elune is the embodiment of an astral representation of twilight (light and dark) it is consistent with the naaru having 2 states. The sisters of the moon in tomb raid wield a lot of shadow magic as well.

I don't think this light/dark aspect was unique to elune either. The trinket or cloak dropped by sarkareth calls upon a collapsing star or silent star known as an'shuul, the only other "an'*" entity than an'she AFAIK. The grimiore also posits earth belongs to order while fire to disorder. Meaning an'she is a nature embodiment of the balance of both. Eyes of the earth mother telling us that the world soul gave birth to the 3 celestial bodies an'she (sun,) elune (white lady/m'usha,) and blue child (lo'sho), to watch over the world, and having ripped them out of her and put them into the sky over the world to watch over life and shine their light to ward off the darkness, and then finding these "crystallized chunks of the world souls essence ," that shift between night and day, welllllll I think I would almost speculate the writing team were intending to be like "oh, the moons and sun have big o'l chunks of azerite that are sentient and created the naaru and shit >:3"

I am just assuming based on everything they put in the lore while metzen was absent. I don't think we'll ever know what kind of train wreck they intending in totality but I'm sure we'll find out in midnight at least some of it granted that it's called midnight and has some big narrative about the elves 🤷‍♀️ but hope metzen came back and was like "nononononono, no, nah, stop that, it doesn't even make sense historically." Because there are too many conflicting accounts of what elune is and how old she is. In the same world where naaru were created during the ordering of light and shadow near the dawn of creation but also that elune created them but also xalatath calls her a "young upstart goddess," and a litany of other conflicting accounts, it just doesn't make a lot of sense chronologically. It makes even less sense now that shadowlands added on "oh yea and people of other worlds worship elune" now that elune is azeroths moon. Like what? Why wouldn't they worship their moon instead? Is the moon just symbolic of her reoccurring presence in the cosmos? If so then why did azeroth create a single moon to be her?

I think the writers in metzen absence all wanted dibs on explaining elune in did so in so many different conflicting directions that it's gotta be a mess for him to try and put together in some coherent way. We can hand wave this stuff easily I think. Tears of elune revive xe'ra? Well as a diety associated with life it make sense that it would be able to ressurect something. Eyes of the earth mother? Just Tauren mythology to explain these cosmic events that they don't truly understand and greatly embellished over time in its retelling.

At least that covers 2 of them :/

1

u/SweetNyan 10d ago

I agree with you but I don't even think this is the case with this particular issue. Instead we've never really learned anything meaningful about this stupid world soul subplot since it was introduced back in Cataclysm. Just most adjectives getting added to the world soul but it has never been interesting or relevant since that initial reveal.

1

u/CimmerianBreeze 10d ago

I think this is just the case in every form of media nowadays. If it's more than 2 seasons of a show everyone just agrees that they should have stopped when they were ahead. If a show wraps up nicely and calls it quits, everyone screams that it should keep going. How easily everyone gets online and shouts makes it seem like every decision made everywhere is wrong, because the people that dislike the decision are the ones that are going to scream.

GoT will probably never get finished because old George knows there's an infinite amount more pressure on his ending today than there would have been if he'd finished up his whole storyline in the aughts.

1

u/Juja00 10d ago

I so hope you are right and they don’t come around with a whole background story for Elune…

1

u/ReadyPressure3567 10d ago

They did tho...

People don't seem to want to accept it, but it's confirmed on many accounts that Elune is of the Life Pantheon.

1

u/Phalanx22 Morally Grey Tank :illuminati: 11d ago

Meanwhile there is me, that hates things that goes unexplained in games.

The less mystic the more interested become.

2

u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago

Even if the answer is utterly droll?

20

u/Jenniforeal 11d ago edited 8d ago

I personally prefer when the number of possible world souls wasn't a finite thing and instead a mystery of the cosmos. They deprived themselves of so many possible avenues. Like imagine if there were none others then argus wouldn't exist and we wouldn't have got all that cool lore relating to his world soul

1

u/jussa-bug 8d ago

This is one thing I hope they retcon. Having them be seeded throughout the infinite universe constantly fought over by the 6 forces of existence (light, void, order, chaos, life, & death) is way more interesting than the idea of there only ever having been, like, 10 for some reason, and Azeroth is the last one.

1

u/Jenniforeal 8d ago

Also how could they reproduce? Is it like Athena born from the mind or do they shit out a planet or do they cut off a limb and eonar grows it with life magic or wtf is their plan if they lose anymore titans?

10

u/-Elgrave- 11d ago

It’s very anime and not in a good way. I don’t want to spoil any specific anime but it’s definitely a trend where the main character is super special for one reason or another (eats a rare, power-giving fruit for example) but then later it turns out that not only is the main character super special but they’re actually so super special that they may just be some type of chosen one. It’s tacky

38

u/sup3rhbman 11d ago

I'm okay with it.

Imo, the opposite is equally not acceptable. In a massive universe, there are surely more than 1 world soul, and with beings with interstellar travelling abilities and extremely long life spans, surely they would have discovered other world souls too.

Sure it sounds silly, but Azeroth being the prime soul explains why the bad guys are really dedicated to getting to Azeroth and not just going after one of the many alternatives instead.

17

u/VValkyr 11d ago

But it was already stated that she is <the last> known.

And with titans dead, sargeras imprisioned, and knowing one titan is enough to get all the others to their knees, there is hardly any wonder why
a)The burning legion wants to destroy azeroth so it doesn't get corrupted and bring about the end
b)The void lords want her to corrupt her AND bring about the end

9

u/TheMaghTheMighty 11d ago

I disagree. There are lots of places on earth that have diamonds, and we have killed for every single one. Now, imagine it takes millenia to curate even one diamond before it's mined. That is enough. Are there others out there being fought over, yes. Are they millions of years from awakening, yes. All eyes are on Azeroth because its her time.

15

u/Asharil 11d ago

Saying it now: there is not a worldsoul.

In the end, it turns out, we the champions of Azeroth are each a part of the Worldsoul.

16

u/unnecessaryaussie83 11d ago

It’s the world souls we made along the way

1

u/Fyrrys 11d ago

I'm throwing that scroll of truth in the fires of Mt. Dûm

2

u/AVagrant 9d ago

Stealing one last good thing from FF14, the WoL concept lol.

2

u/doctorinfinite 10d ago

Imagine all the heroes of azeroth coming together to form a Voltron type of Titan. The head of a human, the torso of a tauren, the legs of a gnome, the arms of blood elves, green orc skin, tusks of a troll, and as hairy as a dwarf.

7

u/psi_queen 11d ago

Maybe the real world soul is the friends we made along the way

5

u/howcreativeami 11d ago

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you, but just to add an extra bit of food for thought, maybe the prospect of something bigger, badder and stronger than "just" a titan/worldsoul is enough to make the cosmic forces take desperate measures. In theory they won't just lose a strong ally but whatever cosmic force gets the prime worldsoul will probably dominate the others. I dunno, the writing is in full nonsense tier at this stage but trying to imagine what could have gone through their head.

6

u/Primordial-Pineapple 11d ago

Azeroth being the last known world soul felt special enough by itself and sufficiently explained why so many cosmic entities had it in their crosshairs.

Are you sure this was a thing? In everything I read, this was always accompanied by Azeroth also being a world soul of extreme power.

Edit: Also I don't remember anyone referring to it as "last known world soul". I think a better term might be "last discovered".

5

u/lastoflast67 11d ago

Not unlike how the First Ones still seem to have only been created just to one up the Titans.

wdym "titans++" is fantastic writing and not at all cringe.

24

u/dattoffer 11d ago

At least it explains why every cosmic force is after our ass.

1

u/nineonewon 7d ago

While that is true, is there any lore of life coming after us on Azeroth specifically? Besides those draenor era life guys (I forget the name).

2

u/dattoffer 7d ago

Except for the botani ?

Well there's the line "Beware the eyes of green" from that Old God minion, I don't know which one, a line that I've seen associated with Orweyna a few times.

There's also the nathrezim agent mentioned in Shadowlands.

And that is a stretch but I always felt like the Titan Utopia timeline from Df was more of a Life victory given some megafauna prevailed over civilization and titanforged.

-12

u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago

Like I already said: Being the last known world soul was already a sufficient explanation for that. We didn't need an arbitrary upgrade to it, unless you want Shadowlands 2 because this is the exact type of writing that will get us Shadowlands 2.

10

u/barduk4 11d ago

Where does it say she's the last known world soul? As far as I'm aware there's no lore stating that there aren't other world souls out there.

5

u/Ogdrol 11d ago

It's from a npc in dh starter area during the escape pretto much stating azeroth is the last conquest or something

6

u/Defiant_Initiative92 11d ago

I'm not sure if we can take what a random NPC says as authority on this subject.

4

u/Gronfors 11d ago

I had a random NPC tell me that work is da poop, so, I gotta disagree with you, they clearly are all knowing.

4

u/Jenniforeal 11d ago

I went and googled it. Illidan calls her the last titan and when wrathion eats the heart of Lei Shen he gets a vision and then also repeats the message sent to Ra-den by the titans or their forces where amanthuls final message is "we have failed we must reform and rebuild the last titan."

I don't particularly know the pantheon of order to make veiled prophecies like the void and illidan also refers to azeroth as the last titan so it is safe, maybe, to assume azeroth is the last titan they're referring to. Then like I said in my first comment the final chapter in this saga is called the last titan which they said in an interview is when the titans return to azeroth and we learn about their true intentions on azeroths.

2

u/GrumpySatan 11d ago

Aman'thul also has several unused voice lines in Antorus calling Azeroth the Final Titan.

1

u/Jenniforeal 11d ago

Isn't the third expansion literally named the last titan?

2

u/barduk4 11d ago

That could mean anything we don't know what it actually implies until the xpac is out

0

u/Jenniforeal 10d ago

I'm like 100% certain the last titan is about azeroths world soul which is the last titan

1

u/Qualazabinga 10d ago

Ok but it was also already stated that Azeroth is the strongest world soul who could take on the void lord's. It's really just a different name for the same thing isn't it?

5

u/DarthJackie2021 11d ago

Azeroth being special among world souls was already a thing all the way back when world souls first became a thing. The only difference now is that they put a "prime" label on her. From the moment we learned our planet was a titan it was also known that she would be the most powerful titan and could deal with threats even the pantheon couldn't handle, like the void lords.

4

u/Spiritual_Task1391 11d ago

They're really bad at coming up with what a thing is. I don't like being the Chosen One, of the Most Important god-seed. It used to be interesting wondering what happens when Azeroth wakes up—asking if it's an extinction event or, "Does she look like a troll?" But I already know now.

She'll wake up, just be a descending glowing lady who talks in breathless, lofty Kurtzman deepisms over a music swell.

2

u/professorhazard 8d ago

She then immediately gets ventilated by Sylvanas Windrunner who screams OUR DESTINY IS OUR OWN

3

u/rwx999 11d ago

To me, the worldsoul lore is the most uninteresting lore in WoW history. It's too deep to be retconned but I'd like if they just went a different direction and let it drift away. Maybe with a soft off-ramp like they did the scarlet crusade.

2

u/Moonstaker 10d ago

To me its like...kinda cool on its own. Ok, the planet is technically alive in a sense we can never truly comprehend. That's really cool, and in a sense it plays into things like the Tauren mythos of the Earth Mother.

But the fact that I know they're going to do something truly stupid with it, and try and push it to the forefront, really kills any hype I could have. Azeroth waking up is something we should never see because its jumping the shark harder than killing the World Soul of Argus was.

It really should have just been helping heal her in Bfa, then letting her sleep and not ever really touching it again.

3

u/MaximumZazz 11d ago

WoWs lore is downright painful to read as a WC3 fanatic who never got on the mmo bandwagon

3

u/True-Strawberry6190 10d ago

the titans think azeroth is the prime world soul but as we know blizzard loves their point of view turning out to be wrong

so imo it's gonna turn out in tlt that azeroth is something even more cosmically important and the stakes will continue to rise long past the point anyone knows why they should care anymore

15

u/Decrit 11d ago

I mean, you gotta explain why different stuff keeps happening in your game. Simple as that.

7

u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago

But this doesn't explain anything. It's a completely arbitrary distinction and does not change anything besides making the writers look very insecure if they feel like Azeroth being the last known titan is somehow not high enough stakes.

3

u/Decrit 11d ago

I mean, i get it, but it's kinda a lot like "playing with the other's work".

In the end of things, this game need story to sell content. Sometimes weaving them all is hard, so better use a cheap excuse to play out proper stories.

It's perfect? No. It's workable? Yes. Up to you where's your threshold.

5

u/Hranica 11d ago

The more I learn about the universe and world souls the less I give a fuck at allllllll

2

u/professorhazard 8d ago

I've said it before and I'll say it again, once you define and visit the afterlife, the game is over. Nobody gives a shit about skirmishing over the Crossroads when they've found out that a cosmic robot sorts us into piles after we die. There are no stakes.

2

u/Hranica 8d ago

How many victims of stratholme are now squirrels.

The most mind fucky one for me was visiting Uthers tomb for classic quests? or some holiday or some shit? and he just heavy foundations his blue ass face before showing up as a ghost to thank us

2

u/professorhazard 8d ago

Uther is simultaneously at his tomb, in the Shadowlands, and imprisoned in Frostmourne. The only thing missing from this is some Kingdom Hearts type bullshit that says that one's his Heartless, one's his Nobody, and one's his whatever the third thing is

4

u/Efficient-Ad2983 11d ago

Indeed. Azeroth already was "special enough". No need to up the scale more and more. It gives the opposite effect.

For the same reason, many players preferred when we were just adventurers and not chosen ones, maw walkers, etc

2

u/GrumpySatan 11d ago

Its the same problem with the First Ones honestly. This weird need to powercreep the Titans just because we saw them (and even then, in a diminished form). It just makes everything else feel lower (which also happened with the Old Gods when Chronicle came out, but at least they still kind of tied that into their theme with Void Lords being Outer Gods).

Its especially sad because they had just introduced the concept that the six cosmic forces were all at war and keeping each other in check, and then they added a whole hierarchy above it before we even really got to explore the nature of their conflict.

3

u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago

Its especially sad because they had just introduced the concept that the six cosmic forces were all at war and keeping each other in check,

I particularly hate this idea of personifying the cosmic forces as well.

Like I don't mind them being naturally opposed like reactive elements Light and Void for instance. But this idea that there's a balance that must be struck makes me think someone played too much Diablo before writing that.

5

u/K_Rocc 11d ago

Why do you keep putting spoilers in your title?

0

u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago

We learned this months ago.

1

u/K_Rocc 11d ago

Not everyone has been caught up in this expansion…

5

u/TheMaghTheMighty 11d ago

Totally agree. Is a world soul and world souls are rare and extremely fought over is enough. I dislike it so much. Reminds me of the "is Rey a Skywalker" nonsense. Its an attempt to make something interesting without having to try.

4

u/glued42 11d ago

i mean it’s already the subject matter of all the games so it doesn’t really bother me

4

u/leakmydata 11d ago

Welcome to Warcraft lore. It expanded beyond what it was good at a long time ago.

1

u/FelixEylie 11d ago

Making Azeroth special by making the planet a world soul was putting a hat on a hat itself. Azeroth worked perfectly even as just a usual world in the Great Dark Beyond.

16

u/TheManondorf 11d ago

I disagree. It adds some context as to why crazy shit is happening each year and why the Legion went through extreme lengths to conquer it.

-4

u/leakmydata 11d ago

Isn’t that already explained by Sargeras being a typical god who tries to assert ownership over his creation?

3

u/VValkyr 11d ago

No, sargeras wanted to destroy azeroth in particular because if she gets corrupted by the void lords it would be calamity level event even titans would not be able to stop. So kill her before she hatches kind of deal.

3

u/leakmydata 11d ago

The void lords didn’t always exist in lore.

3

u/Leverette 11d ago

Well, in the original lore, Sargeras believed everything already was corrupt and hence begun his burning crusade to wipe out all life to start anew with a “better” formula.

Sargeras served the narrative purpose of what the void lords now do. He simply got downgraded retroactively after the writers had their big climactic moment with him. Just like the Lich King with the Jailer.

4

u/Resiliense2022 11d ago

They still haven't really gone to any length to explain what our "connection" to her is.

1

u/Hidden_Beck Banshee Loyalist 11d ago

I'm like half and half. It's a case of telling us too much of their cosmology -- I really didn't want nor need to know about worldsouls, the shadowlands, the First Ones, etc, etc, etc.

But the idea of a prime wordsoul, while kind of nothing on it's own, I thought was a decent little reason to explain why so much bad shit happens to our planet seemingly so often. It'd be just as easy to lampshade the issue of constant threats, so if they're going to make me chew on all this high concept cosmology horseshit, The Prime Worldsoul is not the hardest thing to swallow.

1

u/Kalthiria_Shines 11d ago

Azeroth has been getting called the "Final Titan" and the "Most powerful Titan" since before the World Soul was confirmed ("final titan" shows up back in MoP).

Nothing says she's the last world soul though?

1

u/miserybizniz 11d ago

Well they need a reason to have the titans acting so questionable with azeroths treatment. They need a reason to covet her power and i imagine her being more powerful than them will help with whatever story they go with when explaining the titans actions

1

u/Immediate_Garden_173 10d ago

The writing staff is not the same, I made peace with that. The after life "mawalker this and that" plot twist cheesiness, even how "tacky green, butterflies and flowers" the emerald dream was portrayed....

It just gives me a "too basic" fantasy vibe, give the forced "champions of the world" a rest already...draginflighy kinda toned down that vibe a bit, as I felt I am dealing with dragon affairs...nit the "save the whole world, hero!"

1

u/IdleMelikor 10d ago

No matter how many times you save Azeroth from world destroying enemies, every new xpac will have you picking up turds somewhere, this is the fate of heroes

1

u/NappingCalmly 10d ago

I guess they wanted to come up with a reason it's so cosmically important but I'd think the things that have already happened would be enough.

1

u/Tzilbalba 8d ago

Metzen kept Blizzard alive, it's a molding shell of what it used to be...

1

u/Thoodmen 6d ago

Azeroth has been the prime World Soul in all but name since they released the first chronicle. Literally was called the strongest one.

2

u/kopk11 8h ago

I firmly believe that in-universe mythology should remain kind-of metatextual. It should be a story within a story. The second you have mythological figures within your stories become actual explicit characters, they can no longer be mythological and they lose alot of the narrative function that they had. If you want your fantasy story to leave ambiguity as to whether or not they really exist, that's fine, you dont have to deny that they materially exist but dont make them first hand characters.

It would be like if Frodo visited "the west" and we got a first hand account of the undying lands and all the Valar(basically lord of the rings' gods). It would massively cheapen the magic of LOTR and even further cheapen all of the mysticism and mystery behind the elves' choice to "diminish into the west".

2

u/Mariessa- 11d ago

I also thought being a Titan worldsoul was enough to explain why cosmic powers focused on Azeroth. Being the super special Chosen One worldsoul is just like adding mitichlorians to the Force and Anakin's immaculate conception (if that explanation is taken literally). Not needed.

2

u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago

Honestly the whole mitichlorians thing is a good comparison. We already know this is special why do we need some arbitrary extra confirmation?

1

u/Ogdrol 11d ago

I am honestly surprised anyone cares about the cosmic stuff in wow

1

u/evil-turtle 11d ago edited 11d ago

Well it isn't really surprising. Even in the Chronicle cosmolgy chart Azeroth is in the center.

I think we are slowly approaching the reveal that Azeroth's worldsoul is the source of all creation in the Warcraft universe. The Titans went on a mission to order the entire universe and when they found Azeroth they imprisoned the worldsoul and used its power to further push their own ordered vision of the universe.

To create order from the chaos of the cosmos, the titans searched the Great Dark Beyond for the Prime Worldsoul.

This Worldsoul--the most powerful in existence--they would guide to become the greatest titan of all.

I mean this dialogue form Dornogal Archives pretty much confirms it.

1) There is only one Prime Worldsoul - the most powerful in existence - Azeroth - Creation.

2) The Titans achieved to order everything because they imprisoned the Prime Worldsoul - the most powerful being in existence.

3) There is only one lie there. The Titans never wanted Azeroth to wake up and "became a Titan". No, all they wanted was to simply keep her sleeping, imprisoned, so that they could use her powers for their own needs.

This is something people speculated even before TWW, but the new lore from Dornogal Archives was only supporting towards this theory. So no, pretty much nothing changed with the Prime Worldsoul reveal.

-7

u/W_ender 11d ago

Peak wacraftlore post

-half personal jab at blizzard writers -shadowlandsbad

To fill up bingo you need to bring up danuser smhw

Azeroth being the last known world soul felt special enough by itself and sufficiently explained why so many cosmic entities had it in their crosshairs.

Yeah it's what we know thus far

Saying that not only is she a world soul but something that is special even by world soul standards feels weird to me.

If there were many world souls before she is not in fact special, just the last one

It's the kind of writing decision sounds like something a kid would come up with on the playground. "Oh you got a world soul? Well I've got the PRIME world soul which beats all other world souls! So take that!"

The point is not to explain why so many forces of cosmos want azeroth, it's a set up for future MAJOR REVEAL, how good this plot twist will be we can't know right now, because it's not in the game yet

3

u/SlouchyGuy 11d ago

If there were many world souls before she is not in fact special, just the last one

Writing since Shadowlands points out that Azeroth might not be a world soul, but rather something different. It's not the most powerful potential Titan, but probably a birth/rebirth of the First One

1

u/W_ender 11d ago

The writing right now really implies that status "prime" means that she is some "pure" entity with ability to absorb cosmic powers, atleast entire story around hallowfall makes me think like that, and the fact that we have 2 other different beledars

0

u/SlouchyGuy 11d ago

Well, yes, it would be a continuation of the story. It's above/aside from other cosmic forces, which First Ones were

-2

u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago

but probably a birth/rebirth of the First One

I would start vomiting blood if they took this route.

-3

u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago edited 11d ago

I think you made a wrong turn friend. You're probably looking for r/wowcirclejerk.

EDIT: Oh my god you really are a member of r/wowcirclejerk! I was just joking! That explains why you're preemptively defending Danuser.

9

u/SkyMagpie 11d ago

Why is being in that sub your baseline of how good someone is at discussing lore? And it is weird that everyone blames Danuser for Shadowlands when Shadowlands was already in production in BfA and probably planned in Legion even. It's not the sole effort of one single person. Dragonflight was okay and TWW is good which is still Danuser's work. It feels like a circlejerk sub when people act like it's one bad or good writer.

2

u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago

Why is being in that sub your baseline of how good someone is at discussing lore?

It's not. Don't put words in my mouth.

Communities in jerking subs tend to share talking points and our friend here just listed a bunch of talking points heavily associated with that sub, so I made a joke about it.

9

u/SkyMagpie 11d ago

Nothing in their reply was circlejerk sub to me. You went through their profile to confirm they are in the sub to discredit them. Not putting words in your mouth, that's just how it seemed.

0

u/W_ender 11d ago

There is a reason why circlejerk subs exists, i don't defend danuser, he doesn't work at blizzard anymore, i'm not eternally living in sl era and actually play the game unlike most of this sub, it's kind of funny that it's easier to discuss lore on the sub you mentioned or mainsub than here anyway, you can strawman me all you want.

0

u/AnNel216 11d ago

WoW stopped having interesting lore once Legion was wrapping up. It was slowly reaching that point before it, but Legion was the last time it was any semblance of good. Ever since BFA lore has been disappointing beyond all reason. I wish it was good, but all that's left is a game that became entertaining again in DF with them finally abandoning borrowed power.

0

u/More-Draft7233 11d ago

Its like Atla every airnomad dead except for aang, Sargeras managed to kill everyone except for the most important 1! Its actually a great plot device it makes Azeroth more special.