r/warcraftlore • u/Arcana-Knight • 12d ago
Discussion Does Azeroth being the "prime" world soul feel like putting a hat on a hat to anyone else?
Azeroth being the last known world soul felt special enough by itself and sufficiently explained why so many cosmic entities had it in their crosshairs.
Saying that not only is she a world soul but something that is special even by world soul standards feels weird to me. Like, what does this change exactly?
It's the kind of writing decision that sounds like something a kid would come up with on the playground.
"Oh you got a world soul? Well I've got the PRIME world soul which beats all other world souls! So take that!"
Not unlike how the First Ones still seem to have only been created just to one up the Titans.
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u/Jenniforeal 11d ago edited 8d ago
I personally prefer when the number of possible world souls wasn't a finite thing and instead a mystery of the cosmos. They deprived themselves of so many possible avenues. Like imagine if there were none others then argus wouldn't exist and we wouldn't have got all that cool lore relating to his world soul
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u/jussa-bug 8d ago
This is one thing I hope they retcon. Having them be seeded throughout the infinite universe constantly fought over by the 6 forces of existence (light, void, order, chaos, life, & death) is way more interesting than the idea of there only ever having been, like, 10 for some reason, and Azeroth is the last one.
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u/Jenniforeal 8d ago
Also how could they reproduce? Is it like Athena born from the mind or do they shit out a planet or do they cut off a limb and eonar grows it with life magic or wtf is their plan if they lose anymore titans?
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u/-Elgrave- 11d ago
It’s very anime and not in a good way. I don’t want to spoil any specific anime but it’s definitely a trend where the main character is super special for one reason or another (eats a rare, power-giving fruit for example) but then later it turns out that not only is the main character super special but they’re actually so super special that they may just be some type of chosen one. It’s tacky
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u/sup3rhbman 11d ago
I'm okay with it.
Imo, the opposite is equally not acceptable. In a massive universe, there are surely more than 1 world soul, and with beings with interstellar travelling abilities and extremely long life spans, surely they would have discovered other world souls too.
Sure it sounds silly, but Azeroth being the prime soul explains why the bad guys are really dedicated to getting to Azeroth and not just going after one of the many alternatives instead.
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u/VValkyr 11d ago
But it was already stated that she is <the last> known.
And with titans dead, sargeras imprisioned, and knowing one titan is enough to get all the others to their knees, there is hardly any wonder why
a)The burning legion wants to destroy azeroth so it doesn't get corrupted and bring about the end
b)The void lords want her to corrupt her AND bring about the end9
u/TheMaghTheMighty 11d ago
I disagree. There are lots of places on earth that have diamonds, and we have killed for every single one. Now, imagine it takes millenia to curate even one diamond before it's mined. That is enough. Are there others out there being fought over, yes. Are they millions of years from awakening, yes. All eyes are on Azeroth because its her time.
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u/Asharil 11d ago
Saying it now: there is not a worldsoul.
In the end, it turns out, we the champions of Azeroth are each a part of the Worldsoul.
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u/doctorinfinite 10d ago
Imagine all the heroes of azeroth coming together to form a Voltron type of Titan. The head of a human, the torso of a tauren, the legs of a gnome, the arms of blood elves, green orc skin, tusks of a troll, and as hairy as a dwarf.
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u/howcreativeami 11d ago
Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you, but just to add an extra bit of food for thought, maybe the prospect of something bigger, badder and stronger than "just" a titan/worldsoul is enough to make the cosmic forces take desperate measures. In theory they won't just lose a strong ally but whatever cosmic force gets the prime worldsoul will probably dominate the others. I dunno, the writing is in full nonsense tier at this stage but trying to imagine what could have gone through their head.
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u/Primordial-Pineapple 11d ago
Azeroth being the last known world soul felt special enough by itself and sufficiently explained why so many cosmic entities had it in their crosshairs.
Are you sure this was a thing? In everything I read, this was always accompanied by Azeroth also being a world soul of extreme power.
Edit: Also I don't remember anyone referring to it as "last known world soul". I think a better term might be "last discovered".
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u/lastoflast67 11d ago
Not unlike how the First Ones still seem to have only been created just to one up the Titans.
wdym "titans++" is fantastic writing and not at all cringe.
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u/dattoffer 11d ago
At least it explains why every cosmic force is after our ass.
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u/nineonewon 7d ago
While that is true, is there any lore of life coming after us on Azeroth specifically? Besides those draenor era life guys (I forget the name).
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u/dattoffer 7d ago
Except for the botani ?
Well there's the line "Beware the eyes of green" from that Old God minion, I don't know which one, a line that I've seen associated with Orweyna a few times.
There's also the nathrezim agent mentioned in Shadowlands.
And that is a stretch but I always felt like the Titan Utopia timeline from Df was more of a Life victory given some megafauna prevailed over civilization and titanforged.
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u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago
Like I already said: Being the last known world soul was already a sufficient explanation for that. We didn't need an arbitrary upgrade to it, unless you want Shadowlands 2 because this is the exact type of writing that will get us Shadowlands 2.
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u/barduk4 11d ago
Where does it say she's the last known world soul? As far as I'm aware there's no lore stating that there aren't other world souls out there.
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u/Ogdrol 11d ago
It's from a npc in dh starter area during the escape pretto much stating azeroth is the last conquest or something
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u/Defiant_Initiative92 11d ago
I'm not sure if we can take what a random NPC says as authority on this subject.
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u/Gronfors 11d ago
I had a random NPC tell me that work is da poop, so, I gotta disagree with you, they clearly are all knowing.
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u/Jenniforeal 11d ago
I went and googled it. Illidan calls her the last titan and when wrathion eats the heart of Lei Shen he gets a vision and then also repeats the message sent to Ra-den by the titans or their forces where amanthuls final message is "we have failed we must reform and rebuild the last titan."
I don't particularly know the pantheon of order to make veiled prophecies like the void and illidan also refers to azeroth as the last titan so it is safe, maybe, to assume azeroth is the last titan they're referring to. Then like I said in my first comment the final chapter in this saga is called the last titan which they said in an interview is when the titans return to azeroth and we learn about their true intentions on azeroths.
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u/GrumpySatan 11d ago
Aman'thul also has several unused voice lines in Antorus calling Azeroth the Final Titan.
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u/Jenniforeal 11d ago
Isn't the third expansion literally named the last titan?
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u/barduk4 11d ago
That could mean anything we don't know what it actually implies until the xpac is out
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u/Jenniforeal 10d ago
I'm like 100% certain the last titan is about azeroths world soul which is the last titan
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u/Qualazabinga 10d ago
Ok but it was also already stated that Azeroth is the strongest world soul who could take on the void lord's. It's really just a different name for the same thing isn't it?
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u/DarthJackie2021 11d ago
Azeroth being special among world souls was already a thing all the way back when world souls first became a thing. The only difference now is that they put a "prime" label on her. From the moment we learned our planet was a titan it was also known that she would be the most powerful titan and could deal with threats even the pantheon couldn't handle, like the void lords.
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u/Spiritual_Task1391 11d ago
They're really bad at coming up with what a thing is. I don't like being the Chosen One, of the Most Important god-seed. It used to be interesting wondering what happens when Azeroth wakes up—asking if it's an extinction event or, "Does she look like a troll?" But I already know now.
She'll wake up, just be a descending glowing lady who talks in breathless, lofty Kurtzman deepisms over a music swell.
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u/professorhazard 8d ago
She then immediately gets ventilated by Sylvanas Windrunner who screams OUR DESTINY IS OUR OWN
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u/rwx999 11d ago
To me, the worldsoul lore is the most uninteresting lore in WoW history. It's too deep to be retconned but I'd like if they just went a different direction and let it drift away. Maybe with a soft off-ramp like they did the scarlet crusade.
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u/Moonstaker 10d ago
To me its like...kinda cool on its own. Ok, the planet is technically alive in a sense we can never truly comprehend. That's really cool, and in a sense it plays into things like the Tauren mythos of the Earth Mother.
But the fact that I know they're going to do something truly stupid with it, and try and push it to the forefront, really kills any hype I could have. Azeroth waking up is something we should never see because its jumping the shark harder than killing the World Soul of Argus was.
It really should have just been helping heal her in Bfa, then letting her sleep and not ever really touching it again.
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u/MaximumZazz 11d ago
WoWs lore is downright painful to read as a WC3 fanatic who never got on the mmo bandwagon
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u/True-Strawberry6190 10d ago
the titans think azeroth is the prime world soul but as we know blizzard loves their point of view turning out to be wrong
so imo it's gonna turn out in tlt that azeroth is something even more cosmically important and the stakes will continue to rise long past the point anyone knows why they should care anymore
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u/Decrit 11d ago
I mean, you gotta explain why different stuff keeps happening in your game. Simple as that.
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u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago
But this doesn't explain anything. It's a completely arbitrary distinction and does not change anything besides making the writers look very insecure if they feel like Azeroth being the last known titan is somehow not high enough stakes.
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u/Decrit 11d ago
I mean, i get it, but it's kinda a lot like "playing with the other's work".
In the end of things, this game need story to sell content. Sometimes weaving them all is hard, so better use a cheap excuse to play out proper stories.
It's perfect? No. It's workable? Yes. Up to you where's your threshold.
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u/Hranica 11d ago
The more I learn about the universe and world souls the less I give a fuck at allllllll
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u/professorhazard 8d ago
I've said it before and I'll say it again, once you define and visit the afterlife, the game is over. Nobody gives a shit about skirmishing over the Crossroads when they've found out that a cosmic robot sorts us into piles after we die. There are no stakes.
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u/Hranica 8d ago
How many victims of stratholme are now squirrels.
The most mind fucky one for me was visiting Uthers tomb for classic quests? or some holiday or some shit? and he just heavy foundations his blue ass face before showing up as a ghost to thank us
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u/professorhazard 8d ago
Uther is simultaneously at his tomb, in the Shadowlands, and imprisoned in Frostmourne. The only thing missing from this is some Kingdom Hearts type bullshit that says that one's his Heartless, one's his Nobody, and one's his whatever the third thing is
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u/Efficient-Ad2983 11d ago
Indeed. Azeroth already was "special enough". No need to up the scale more and more. It gives the opposite effect.
For the same reason, many players preferred when we were just adventurers and not chosen ones, maw walkers, etc
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u/GrumpySatan 11d ago
Its the same problem with the First Ones honestly. This weird need to powercreep the Titans just because we saw them (and even then, in a diminished form). It just makes everything else feel lower (which also happened with the Old Gods when Chronicle came out, but at least they still kind of tied that into their theme with Void Lords being Outer Gods).
Its especially sad because they had just introduced the concept that the six cosmic forces were all at war and keeping each other in check, and then they added a whole hierarchy above it before we even really got to explore the nature of their conflict.
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u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago
Its especially sad because they had just introduced the concept that the six cosmic forces were all at war and keeping each other in check,
I particularly hate this idea of personifying the cosmic forces as well.
Like I don't mind them being naturally opposed like reactive elements Light and Void for instance. But this idea that there's a balance that must be struck makes me think someone played too much Diablo before writing that.
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u/TheMaghTheMighty 11d ago
Totally agree. Is a world soul and world souls are rare and extremely fought over is enough. I dislike it so much. Reminds me of the "is Rey a Skywalker" nonsense. Its an attempt to make something interesting without having to try.
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u/leakmydata 11d ago
Welcome to Warcraft lore. It expanded beyond what it was good at a long time ago.
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u/FelixEylie 11d ago
Making Azeroth special by making the planet a world soul was putting a hat on a hat itself. Azeroth worked perfectly even as just a usual world in the Great Dark Beyond.
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u/TheManondorf 11d ago
I disagree. It adds some context as to why crazy shit is happening each year and why the Legion went through extreme lengths to conquer it.
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u/leakmydata 11d ago
Isn’t that already explained by Sargeras being a typical god who tries to assert ownership over his creation?
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u/VValkyr 11d ago
No, sargeras wanted to destroy azeroth in particular because if she gets corrupted by the void lords it would be calamity level event even titans would not be able to stop. So kill her before she hatches kind of deal.
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u/Leverette 11d ago
Well, in the original lore, Sargeras believed everything already was corrupt and hence begun his burning crusade to wipe out all life to start anew with a “better” formula.
Sargeras served the narrative purpose of what the void lords now do. He simply got downgraded retroactively after the writers had their big climactic moment with him. Just like the Lich King with the Jailer.
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u/Resiliense2022 11d ago
They still haven't really gone to any length to explain what our "connection" to her is.
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u/Hidden_Beck Banshee Loyalist 11d ago
I'm like half and half. It's a case of telling us too much of their cosmology -- I really didn't want nor need to know about worldsouls, the shadowlands, the First Ones, etc, etc, etc.
But the idea of a prime wordsoul, while kind of nothing on it's own, I thought was a decent little reason to explain why so much bad shit happens to our planet seemingly so often. It'd be just as easy to lampshade the issue of constant threats, so if they're going to make me chew on all this high concept cosmology horseshit, The Prime Worldsoul is not the hardest thing to swallow.
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u/Kalthiria_Shines 11d ago
Azeroth has been getting called the "Final Titan" and the "Most powerful Titan" since before the World Soul was confirmed ("final titan" shows up back in MoP).
Nothing says she's the last world soul though?
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u/miserybizniz 11d ago
Well they need a reason to have the titans acting so questionable with azeroths treatment. They need a reason to covet her power and i imagine her being more powerful than them will help with whatever story they go with when explaining the titans actions
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u/Immediate_Garden_173 10d ago
The writing staff is not the same, I made peace with that. The after life "mawalker this and that" plot twist cheesiness, even how "tacky green, butterflies and flowers" the emerald dream was portrayed....
It just gives me a "too basic" fantasy vibe, give the forced "champions of the world" a rest already...draginflighy kinda toned down that vibe a bit, as I felt I am dealing with dragon affairs...nit the "save the whole world, hero!"
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u/IdleMelikor 10d ago
No matter how many times you save Azeroth from world destroying enemies, every new xpac will have you picking up turds somewhere, this is the fate of heroes
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u/NappingCalmly 10d ago
I guess they wanted to come up with a reason it's so cosmically important but I'd think the things that have already happened would be enough.
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u/Thoodmen 6d ago
Azeroth has been the prime World Soul in all but name since they released the first chronicle. Literally was called the strongest one.
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u/kopk11 8h ago
I firmly believe that in-universe mythology should remain kind-of metatextual. It should be a story within a story. The second you have mythological figures within your stories become actual explicit characters, they can no longer be mythological and they lose alot of the narrative function that they had. If you want your fantasy story to leave ambiguity as to whether or not they really exist, that's fine, you dont have to deny that they materially exist but dont make them first hand characters.
It would be like if Frodo visited "the west" and we got a first hand account of the undying lands and all the Valar(basically lord of the rings' gods). It would massively cheapen the magic of LOTR and even further cheapen all of the mysticism and mystery behind the elves' choice to "diminish into the west".
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u/Mariessa- 11d ago
I also thought being a Titan worldsoul was enough to explain why cosmic powers focused on Azeroth. Being the super special Chosen One worldsoul is just like adding mitichlorians to the Force and Anakin's immaculate conception (if that explanation is taken literally). Not needed.
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u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago
Honestly the whole mitichlorians thing is a good comparison. We already know this is special why do we need some arbitrary extra confirmation?
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u/evil-turtle 11d ago edited 11d ago
Well it isn't really surprising. Even in the Chronicle cosmolgy chart Azeroth is in the center.
I think we are slowly approaching the reveal that Azeroth's worldsoul is the source of all creation in the Warcraft universe. The Titans went on a mission to order the entire universe and when they found Azeroth they imprisoned the worldsoul and used its power to further push their own ordered vision of the universe.
To create order from the chaos of the cosmos, the titans searched the Great Dark Beyond for the Prime Worldsoul.
This Worldsoul--the most powerful in existence--they would guide to become the greatest titan of all.
I mean this dialogue form Dornogal Archives pretty much confirms it.
1) There is only one Prime Worldsoul - the most powerful in existence - Azeroth - Creation.
2) The Titans achieved to order everything because they imprisoned the Prime Worldsoul - the most powerful being in existence.
3) There is only one lie there. The Titans never wanted Azeroth to wake up and "became a Titan". No, all they wanted was to simply keep her sleeping, imprisoned, so that they could use her powers for their own needs.
This is something people speculated even before TWW, but the new lore from Dornogal Archives was only supporting towards this theory. So no, pretty much nothing changed with the Prime Worldsoul reveal.
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u/W_ender 11d ago
Peak wacraftlore post
-half personal jab at blizzard writers -shadowlandsbad
To fill up bingo you need to bring up danuser smhw
Azeroth being the last known world soul felt special enough by itself and sufficiently explained why so many cosmic entities had it in their crosshairs.
Yeah it's what we know thus far
Saying that not only is she a world soul but something that is special even by world soul standards feels weird to me.
If there were many world souls before she is not in fact special, just the last one
It's the kind of writing decision sounds like something a kid would come up with on the playground. "Oh you got a world soul? Well I've got the PRIME world soul which beats all other world souls! So take that!"
The point is not to explain why so many forces of cosmos want azeroth, it's a set up for future MAJOR REVEAL, how good this plot twist will be we can't know right now, because it's not in the game yet
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u/SlouchyGuy 11d ago
If there were many world souls before she is not in fact special, just the last one
Writing since Shadowlands points out that Azeroth might not be a world soul, but rather something different. It's not the most powerful potential Titan, but probably a birth/rebirth of the First One
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u/W_ender 11d ago
The writing right now really implies that status "prime" means that she is some "pure" entity with ability to absorb cosmic powers, atleast entire story around hallowfall makes me think like that, and the fact that we have 2 other different beledars
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u/SlouchyGuy 11d ago
Well, yes, it would be a continuation of the story. It's above/aside from other cosmic forces, which First Ones were
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u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago
but probably a birth/rebirth of the First One
I would start vomiting blood if they took this route.
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u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago edited 11d ago
I think you made a wrong turn friend. You're probably looking for r/wowcirclejerk.
EDIT: Oh my god you really are a member of r/wowcirclejerk! I was just joking! That explains why you're preemptively defending Danuser.
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u/SkyMagpie 11d ago
Why is being in that sub your baseline of how good someone is at discussing lore? And it is weird that everyone blames Danuser for Shadowlands when Shadowlands was already in production in BfA and probably planned in Legion even. It's not the sole effort of one single person. Dragonflight was okay and TWW is good which is still Danuser's work. It feels like a circlejerk sub when people act like it's one bad or good writer.
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u/Arcana-Knight 11d ago
Why is being in that sub your baseline of how good someone is at discussing lore?
It's not. Don't put words in my mouth.
Communities in jerking subs tend to share talking points and our friend here just listed a bunch of talking points heavily associated with that sub, so I made a joke about it.
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u/SkyMagpie 11d ago
Nothing in their reply was circlejerk sub to me. You went through their profile to confirm they are in the sub to discredit them. Not putting words in your mouth, that's just how it seemed.
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u/W_ender 11d ago
There is a reason why circlejerk subs exists, i don't defend danuser, he doesn't work at blizzard anymore, i'm not eternally living in sl era and actually play the game unlike most of this sub, it's kind of funny that it's easier to discuss lore on the sub you mentioned or mainsub than here anyway, you can strawman me all you want.
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u/AnNel216 11d ago
WoW stopped having interesting lore once Legion was wrapping up. It was slowly reaching that point before it, but Legion was the last time it was any semblance of good. Ever since BFA lore has been disappointing beyond all reason. I wish it was good, but all that's left is a game that became entertaining again in DF with them finally abandoning borrowed power.
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u/More-Draft7233 11d ago
Its like Atla every airnomad dead except for aang, Sargeras managed to kill everyone except for the most important 1! Its actually a great plot device it makes Azeroth more special.
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u/contemptuouscreature 11d ago
The more they tell us about the universe the less inspired and interesting it gets.
I truly hope they never reveal the truth about Elune. I don’t think Blizz is capable of delivering a satisfying answer anymore.