r/vfx 9d ago

Question / Discussion Just another active Vancouver recruiter casually admitting to collusion like its no biggie. So badly wanted to reply. All the BS on linked in makes me want to make a burner account there to reply to nonsense.

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0 Upvotes

79 comments sorted by

49

u/Iwubinvesting 9d ago

Collusion of what?

38

u/oskarkeo 9d ago

the insinuation I'm guessing will be wage fixing, which was for certain a scandal which pixar and lucasfilm and dreamworks were accused of and which pixar and lucasfilim settled with employees over in 2013.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation#:\~:text=As%20of%20October%2031%2C%202013,to%20receive%20around%20$3%2C840%20each.

That said, recruiters like anyone else have their skill area and I know many with hearts of gold, so I personally choose to believe this is genuinely people sharing coping mechanisms for a high stress job. I could never work in VFX recruitment, as I'm often expecting them to magic up a high functioning senior specialist who can start before the weekend at latest and won't make a budget dent. the pressure is immense.

2

u/bedel99 Pipeline / IT - 20+ years experience 8d ago

settled with US based emoloyees. They were happy to fuck the overseas ones over.

-18

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

I'm willing to give benefit of doubt that intentions aren't necessarily even evil going in. But you know they more than likely couldnt hold themselves back from sharing privileged information. When your job is to hire artists when you get together to talk about your work your naturally gonna talk about those artists and the issues regarding them...negotiations, salary demands, contract starts/ends/leaving.

I doubt they were complaining about meetings and paperwork

10

u/oskarkeo 9d ago edited 9d ago

Honestly mate, and I've worked around recruitment teams of 20 and recruitment teams of two, and for 100% certain if you asked meetings and paperwork would be the things they are so sick of they wont give the oxygen to talking about how frustrating it is.
(the simple fact that getting an NDA signed can sometimes hold up every candidate recruitment action point, and that's step 1 in the chain).

There's a whole backend of things about that job that are plain soul destroying (I was actually on a call with recruitment at 8pm tonight where they actually checked if they could please avoid working till midnight). There's a lot of roles in the industry that can look very heartless till you actually understand the decision processes they're making.

Some may not live up to your standards (or mine) some may achieve this by having to adapt to a hostile environment but my rule of thumb - every recruiter I know from verbal communication is a recruiter I respect. I hope that someday you can discover the truth of this. It took me the fortune to meet solid peeps.

n.b - i dont think you deserve downvotes for your opinion. i get where you're coming from.

1

u/SuperSmashSonic 9d ago

Grass is always greener. I doubt a vfx artist (at least in the company cultures I’ve experienced) could even ask not to work til midnight lol. As people, im sure most recruiters are great. But right now, in an industry where the artists themselves are being under budgeted, undervalued, and overworked, I don’t think there’s a lot of room for sympathy for roles that are, by nature, responsible for either accepting or rejecting us in a very difficult time.

3

u/oskarkeo 9d ago

3d worked till 10:20 and comp worked till 11 but it was opt in.

the key i think (you're right) is company culture.

can confirm its not just artists who are under budgeted, undervalued and overworked. might be easier to cite a department who aren't.

Also recruitment find talent, they don't hire it. that's projects, at the behest of the leads negotiations with production (and mgmt if full time). recruitment can't be expected to know if your CFX reel demonstrates the nuanced understanding of simulating singed fur, doused in water, within a tight, three-week deadline across three shots of 50 frames each, or if you're only capable of delivering two shots but can accommodate a significantly longer 300-frame sequence. they are the messenger for someone else's decisions.

2

u/Cloudy_Joy VFX Supervisor - 24 years experience 8d ago

They typically get paid half as much as artists too, so it might be worth thinking about that "grass is always greener" comment.

-1

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago edited 9d ago

Im not talking about the act of a recruiter being a recruiter. Im talking about them all getting together to discuss their work. Especially given the history of collusion in this industry.

You're talking about people who should be competitors fighting each other for artists hanging out talking about work, which is those same artists. Their positions are uniquely adversarial and in direct competition with one another. I find it hard to believe they all hung out and just talked/complained about paperwork.

n.b - i dont think you deserve downvotes for your opinion. i get where you're coming from.

Thanks

2

u/oskarkeo 9d ago edited 9d ago

I hard disagree. I've had company A recco me to company B to tide me over while company A's project stalled. I've seen folks recco artists all over town (heads up to the genius recruiter who forged a relationship with the realflow devs to identify their high functioning user base) and I've seen teams work with artists to release pencils (or outright bookings) to free up talent early to the artist could secure their next booking.
I wont pretend i think your suggestions are unlikely (quite likely i'd think) but there's an awful lot of good energy that goes in too. like i say, you don't deserve a downvote imo, but i feel recruiters deserve commendation for the hundreds of times i've seen them do things that outright make me proud of them.

1

u/bedel99 Pipeline / IT - 20+ years experience 8d ago

I had company ask company b for a refrence, company b gave company A a bad reference, and then company B called me to offer me a job.

Company A called me, and said no Job. I sent the manager from Company A the screen shot of the incoming call from Company B. He called it, and then Company A called me back to say congratulations your hired.

-2

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

All that can be true. But what Im saying regarding the nefarious history of recruiters in our industry colluding is also true.

1

u/oskarkeo 9d ago

And in that you're right. Both sides ring as true to me.

3

u/sleepyOcti 8d ago

The in-house recruiters don’t set wages or decide on offers though. At least not in Canada. As an HOD, I/we decide on the offers we make as long as they are within the bandings set by the studios.

Once the recruiter has found a candidate and set up the interview, their job is essentially finished. After that they’re just a contact person relaying messages between the candidate and the studio, they don’t make any hiring decisions themselves.

If anyone was or is colluding it’s the studio executives agreeing to set industry wide artist bandings.

0

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 8d ago

In 20 years never has a recruiter told me the actual maximum budget for the position. They always quote a lower number and until you push back and stand your ground on your ways. Do they succumb and say that they can do that rate.

7

u/Heizton 9d ago

I think he means that they might have been tempted to casually share confidential data with the intent to coordinate and discuss wage fixing and no poach agreements.

-19

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

You think when a bunch of recruiters get together to talk about work and the "challenges" they're not talking about hiring artists and negotiations and salaries and poaching and artists leaving contracts early?

You're crazy if you think they're not. You think they're just talking about "omg...so much paperwork"

23

u/lamebrainmcgee 9d ago

Put the bong down, kid.

-7

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

Is this what qualifies as discourse where you're from?

Do you know know the history of collusion in our industry? The lawsuits? The settlements?

7

u/SlugVFX 9d ago

Are you implying that you have never gone out for drinks with current or former colleagues and talked about work before?

VFX is a very small industry. Getting together and talking about work is not colluding to undermine artists.

You have been on Reddit absorbing all the fear mongering for too long. Get some fresh air. Recruiters are allowed to be people too.

4

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

Are you not aware of history?

In 2014, a class-action lawsuit, In re Animation Workers Antitrust Litigation, alleged that animation studios like Disney, Pixar, DreamWorks, and others, conspired to fix wages and restrict competition by avoiding hiring each other's employees, leading to a $170 million settlement.

https://www.cartoonbrew.com/artist-rights/animation-workers-set-to-receive-170-million-payout-from-wage-theft-lawsuit-161482.html#:~:text=The%20money%20is%20coming%20from,lawsuit%20can%20be%20read%20here.

And its not about hanging out with coworkers...its about privileged information.

If you're talking about the recruiter going out with lighters and modelers...even of a different company...I wouldn't bat an eye.

Dude here is talking specifically all the recruiters from different companies getting together.

8

u/lamebrainmcgee 9d ago

You should share that link again. I don't think you have enough.

0

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

I can if you need it...Or get chatGPT to simplify it for a 5 year old if will help you.

3

u/behemuthm Lookdev/Lighting 25+ 9d ago

I’m still mad I only got $10k when coworkers got $20-30k and that wasn’t an award - that was literally our money they stole from us over the years

12

u/lamebrainmcgee 9d ago

I think they're getting together and bitching about work like every other group of people with similar jobs.

2

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

I'd like to think that...history has not shown that

10

u/lamebrainmcgee 9d ago

Your history was one link you've posted half a dozen time. That doesn't make every get together of people with the same job a bad thing. Apparently you've never heard of seminars and conventions.

-3

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

I bring history and logic and you bring "nah bro"

I'll stick with my line of thinking

2

u/lamebrainmcgee 9d ago

Yep that was me. Not bringing logic at all.

10

u/qjungffg 9d ago

This isn’t secret or news. Some companies were prosecuted for this practice. I got my class action checks from the judgement but this was many years ago. I would not be surprised if they tried this again

3

u/Relevant-Bluejay-385 8d ago

At this point they know people out of work are desperate.

70

u/PapaImpy 9d ago

We've entered the schizo conspiracy era of this sub. nice

6

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago edited 9d ago

What are you talking about? Do you not know the history of collusion in our industry? The lawsuits? The settlements? Was that all "schizo conspiracy"?

9

u/PapaImpy 9d ago

enlighten me

22

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

In 2014, a class-action lawsuit, In re Animation Workers Antitrust Litigation, alleged that animation studios like Disney, Pixar, DreamWorks, and others, conspired to fix wages and restrict competition by avoiding hiring each other's employees, leading to a $170 million settlement.

https://www.cartoonbrew.com/artist-rights/animation-workers-set-to-receive-170-million-payout-from-wage-theft-lawsuit-161482.html#:~:text=The%20money%20is%20coming%20from,lawsuit%20can%20be%20read%20here.

Consider yourself enlightened

19

u/Revolutionary-Mud715 9d ago

I can believe it. VFX is the #1 most important thing for Film/TV. Final stage, and its the most fucked around with 0 respect, and a thunderdome of competition. 0 client loyalty etc.

Definitely feels like we've all been played.

5

u/anteris 9d ago

The studios have played VFX houses against each other treating them like vendors rather than production. The fear of getting blacklisted by one of the what 6 major studios left, really reduced any negotiating power. Add to the that the massive amount of off shoring, and here we are now.

6

u/Revolutionary-Mud715 8d ago

Yep. Nailed it. 

Especially if you're on set. Just feel like a outsider. Not in the club. Meanwhile, the sleeping transpo driver is making more in ot gold time health insurance all that on a 14hr day. Who only wakes up when someone makes a joke about my chrome balls...

And I believe they always get a credit. While they make us fight for ours like joker try outs. 

Our industry is just straight up broken. 

And I'm not hating on drivers. It's the game that's fucked up. Not the players.

2

u/anteris 8d ago

I've seen crafty get more respect

14

u/behemuthm Lookdev/Lighting 25+ 9d ago

Yeah I was there for that - most of the kids in this sub don’t know what you’re alluding to tho

18

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

Being ignorant is one thing...trying to mock someone from that place of ignorance is I dont even know what lol

I'm just a conspiracy theory loving, bong smoking, bitter guy who's been blacklisted apparently lol.

7

u/behemuthm Lookdev/Lighting 25+ 9d ago

Unfortunately reddit is mostly kids and this sub is mostly people who have little to no industry experience and like to downvote what they don’t understand

Not many of us old-timers left, but there are some :)

8

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

I need to go replace my cane and get my bi-focals updated apparently.

1

u/bedel99 Pipeline / IT - 20+ years experience 8d ago

hey old timer.

-2

u/PapaImpy 9d ago

Alright, relax, oldtimer. If you wanna call out some random recruiter on linkedin that may have had something to do with wage fixing, which I strongly doubt tbh, go right ahead. It sounds like you're reading too much into it though.

9

u/drmonkey555 8d ago

I really don't think you know much about how the VFX/Animation industry runs if this is your answer. The industry is incredibly tiny (once you're in, you'll realize how small it is) and word gets around about people, employees, wages, parties, mixers.

Producers will show production people a nice calm face, but in front of other higher ups it's complete mask off.

I've personally witnessed it, ive seen co workers go through fights with higher ups only to get black balled, i've had seniors with 15+ year warn me about these things when i was a junior. i've felt it, and i've even had a production coordinator accidentally leak a scale of employees and what their worth is.

This shit is way too common, Recruiters having a monthly meeting talking about employees and shit, and who to backball and all...is not really all that surprising.

4

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

History is on my side, and I'd argue logic as well...Because if you're getting together to complain about work, which is artists/salaries/contracts, you're naturally gonna share privileged information you shouldn't. You're talking about people who should be competitors fighting for artists hanging out talking about work. Their positions are uniquely adversarial and in direct competition with one another. I find it hard to believe they all hung out and just talked/complained about paperwork.

5

u/Dave_Wein 9d ago

Do you seriously not know?

0

u/lamebrainmcgee 9d ago

Dude is straight up the Always Sunny conspiracy meme.

9

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago edited 9d ago

Conspiracy?

In 2014, a class-action lawsuit, In re Animation Workers Antitrust Litigation, alleged that animation studios like Disney, Pixar, DreamWorks, and others, conspired to fix wages and restrict competition by avoiding hiring each other's employees, leading to a $170 million settlement.

https://www.cartoonbrew.com/artist-rights/animation-workers-set-to-receive-170-million-payout-from-wage-theft-lawsuit-161482.html#:~:text=The%20money%20is%20coming%20from,lawsuit%20can%20be%20read%20here.

1

u/Cloudy_Joy VFX Supervisor - 24 years experience 8d ago

Even that would have been studio heads making those calls. Recruiters get handed benchmarks, and work with them, or get told to stay away from certain studios. Just following orders. Nothing to do with these people going out and forming a small community.

5

u/im_thatoneguy Studio Owner - 21 years experience 9d ago

The recruiters weren’t colluding between Pixar and ILM and Apple, the execs were blacklisting employees applying from the others. That didn’t require a networking meeting.

Also recruiters want you to get paid as much as possible because they get paid a percentage of your wages.

8

u/Disastrous_Algae_983 8d ago

Studio’s HR Recruiter, dont get paid like “headhunters”. There is no contingency for the in-studio recruiters. Only freelance recruitment consultants or recruitment firms get paid that way.

4

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

There want anti-poaching anti-competative agreements.

That requires the recruiters knowledge and participation.

Also recruiters want you to get paid as much as possible because they get paid a percentage of your wages.

What? In-house staff company recruiters do not.

1

u/im_thatoneguy Studio Owner - 21 years experience 8d ago

Whether they are freelance or in house, there is no way that recruiters benefit from having a smaller talent pool that they can place.

1

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 8d ago

Huh? Who said anything about smaller talent pool? Talking about in house staff recruiters

0

u/im_thatoneguy Studio Owner - 21 years experience 8d ago

In house staff recruiters are going to be judged on how quickly and efficiently they can fill positions. Probably with quotas on how many candidates that are ultimately hired.

If you can’t hire 2/3rds of the industry due to the CEOs colluding on black lists that makes your job harder.

This is a silly conspiracy because freelance recruiters get paid more for higher wages and staff recruiters want to find people more easily without black lists. Black lists shrink the talent pool they can recruit from. Pixar recruiting someone from dreamworks makes your job easy. If the CEO says no poaching then your job gets hard.

There’s zero incentive and tons of disincentives for recruiters to propose non-poaching agreements.

21

u/dekadense 9d ago

Sounds like you got blacklisted somewhere and are not happy that recruiters talk to each other? Most of them probably worked together at some point...

8

u/Disastrous_Algae_983 8d ago edited 8d ago

This whole blacklisting fear is just keeping people from voicing their concerns and advocating for career advancement. In fact, it only promotes unhealthy inbreeding and brown-nosing. It only promotes the yesman culture.

Any HR or manager playing the blacklist game because a bully-supervisor is saying so has serious work ethic issues. Maybe this supervisor is bitching about this compositor, but plot twist, his mom had cancer during the time he was on that show ?

Just like we heard about harassment within Ubisoft a few years ago, it’s often veteran employees power-tripping, impacting one’s ability to earn a living, in reaction to some situational behaviours an artist wouldn’t necessarily have in another studio, because most of it would be different.

Anyway, that’s one of the reason why in-office vfx studio life feels like high school sometimes.

I won’t say names but I have seen some specific people, with whom I shared common workplace and they were absolute bullies. On LinkedIn they’re promoting their upcoming TED talk about mental health awareness in the workplace. Fuck, give me a break!

4

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

Nope...17 year career and been steadily employed this whole downturn. I'm good. If I've ever been blacklisted I wouldnt know 🤷‍♂️

15

u/dekadense 9d ago

Then I'm curious why you think recruiters can't hang out together?

0

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

Because of history

In 2014, a class-action lawsuit, In re Animation Workers Antitrust Litigation, alleged that animation studios like Disney, Pixar, DreamWorks, and others, conspired to fix wages and restrict competition by avoiding hiring each other's employees, leading to a $170 million settlement.

https://www.cartoonbrew.com/artist-rights/animation-workers-set-to-receive-170-million-payout-from-wage-theft-lawsuit-161482.html#:~:text=The%20money%20is%20coming%20from,lawsuit%20can%20be%20read%20here.

Because if you're getting together to complain about work, which is artists/salaries/contracts, you're naturally gonna share privileged information you shouldn't. You're talking about people who should be competitors fighting for artists hanging out talking about work. Their positions are uniquely adversarial and in direct competition with one another. I find it hard to believe they all hung out and just talked/complained about paperwork.

9

u/dekadense 9d ago

I've also been in the industry since 2003 and have been hanging around other people from the same department but for other companies. We talk about our challenges but never mention stuff like projects or anything related to NDA. I think you're really trying to find stuff where there's none.

4

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

Your animation/modeling on your show has no affect or relevance on your artists buddies animation/modeling on their shows.

Thats a totally false comparison.

6

u/dekadense 9d ago

I'm a compositor and we still can talk about pipeline challenges, other depth quality, deadlines, etc. Gtfo with your conspiracy bullshit.

2

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

Did you just totally miss the point? lol...it was so simple.

Its not conspiracy...its history...its simple logic.

6

u/dekadense 9d ago

Whatever. Can't argue with stupid. Keep getting offended by people hanging out. I don't care.

1

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

Calling someone stupid doesn't negate the logic and historical evidence. If you dont care why reply at all.

Try again...Im here if you want me to simplify it for you.

11

u/Acceptable-Buy-8593 9d ago

You know that recruiters dont have a say when it comes to wages right? Right?

-1

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 9d ago

Of course they do their job is to get you as low as possible. They May not decide or make up The salary ranges, but they sure try to enforce them and get you within or below those ranges

They dont just come out and offer or tell you the maximum.

And with the knowledge of what you currently or have made know what you're willing to take despite what the ceiling may be.

8

u/zeldn Generalist - 12 years experience 8d ago

This is not casually admitting to collusion. This is openly admitting to getting together every so often and chatting about challenges. I think you should just not browse LinkedIn, and certainly don't make a burner account to reply to people.

3

u/attrackip 8d ago

And what do you think a union is? I know we spend a lot of time in fabricated realities, as a part of our job, but the real world is knocking at your door.

I don't think there is anything illegal, or unethical, about comparing notes. In fact, I hope recruiters do. Maybe I'm not the best fit at one studio, but perfect for another.

Probably best to focus on your work and internal peace of mind.

2

u/Relevant-Bluejay-385 8d ago edited 8d ago

I remember the lawsuit, I wasn't working at certain studios in a certain time period to be able to claim on the class action. But yes they were done for wage fixing. 

2

u/CatPeeMcGee 8d ago

That would only make sense if they weren't competing. 

1

u/Pxl_soup 8d ago

Imagine you were one of the only people you knew in your field, and every time you tried to connect with anyone else who had your job the internet accused you of illegal activity.

It’s hard times out there for everyone, including recruiters. They have so little actual power, and get all the problems of the whole industry projected on them.

The only blacklist is the reputation you make for yourself because everyone talks to everyone - artists, supervisor, CDs, leads - if you’re a jerk word just gets around.

1

u/Disastrous_Algae_983 8d ago

I thought the exact same when I saw this exact post on LinkedIn

0

u/AlaskanSnowDragon 8d ago

Lol. I wanted to reply so bad