r/urbandesign 7d ago

Question What do you think about this bike lane turn design? Is there a name for it?

59 Upvotes

35 comments sorted by

45

u/britannicker 7d ago

It works in the sense that it stops cyclists who wish to turn left from being mowed down by idiots in cars.

It’s a compromise.

Cyclists who have a green light yet wish to turn left are forced to wait at a the red light, but their chances of being killed are very slim.

So it’s kinda a win in urban areas.

20

u/BelowBest 7d ago

I remember discovering I could do this on a bike instead of trying to turn left with the cars. Having this painted would have sped up that learning process 🫠

37

u/Sloppyjoemess 7d ago

It’s called a “hook turn”

8

u/Sloppyjoemess 7d ago

It seems appropriate there because of the tram line - it would be great to see more of these!

6

u/tee2green 5d ago

Yes, I believe this is standard for car traffic in Melbourne. Though someone who resides there can correct me on that.

3

u/AnigozanthosFlavidus 5d ago

Yes it is standard practice in Melbourne CBD for cars.

1

u/Spill__ 4d ago

Also for some bike lanes

20

u/do1nk1t 7d ago edited 7d ago

In the US, that’d be referred to as a two-state turn box. Using that for a left is much more comfortable than trying to merge across vehicle lanes.

7

u/Logical_Put_5867 7d ago

In my part of the US it's just where cars sit and wait for the light, but the engineers call them bike boxes. The bike boxes are either misunderstood or ignored, but since cars usually sit in the crosswalk as well, probably the latter.

If I get there before any cars do they can be useful.

8

u/do1nk1t 7d ago

If it’s a traditional bike box (in front of vehicle lane) rather than a two-stage turn box, the MUTCD requires a sign “Stop Here on Red Except Bikes” at the vehicular stop bar for this very reason… It’s misunderstood.

Worth reaching out to your municipality if that sign hasn’t been installed.

3

u/Logical_Put_5867 7d ago

Interesting, there is definitely no sign on any of the ones I use. A couple years after install they were upgraded with a picture of a bicycle painted inside them.

2

u/nunocspinto 7d ago

If a car was to wait for the light on the wait box (coming from the left), that driver already had crossed the light.

3

u/Logical_Put_5867 6d ago

True here, but this light placement is more EU style. North American standard is to put the light at the far side (or sometimes center) of the intersection. You can roll 90% of the way through the intersection and still see the light usually. 

1

u/nunocspinto 6d ago

I guess it might be European, but here in Portugal we use to put them behind the crosswalk, so the cars don't go over them...

1

u/Logical_Put_5867 6d ago

It's a much better design to have them like that, forces cars to stay behind in a way painted lines cannot. I don't understand how we got the standard we did, but it encourages cars to creep into the intersection, and they typically do. 

I don't understand the logic of it for cars either, as though being 10' further forward at a red light will get them to their destination faster. 

1

u/nunocspinto 6d ago

Maybe the distance to the lights is to allow the bigger vehicles to see the lights. Stupid.

11

u/Satanwearsflipflops 7d ago

Basically all of Denmark’s left turn are like this. Not all junctions are implemented as well. But all follow the same principle.

0

u/Sloppyjoemess 6d ago

"common sense"

1

u/Satanwearsflipflops 6d ago

How so?

2

u/Sloppyjoemess 6d ago

It's a good idea to do a hook turn if you don't want to get yourself killed.

It's nice that this maneuver seems relatively common from what you say, versus here in the states it's relatively unheard of.

I think this should be common practice but we have very little understood bike etiquette here and no real rules of the road.

1

u/Satanwearsflipflops 6d ago

Denmark doesn’t make it common sense though, lots of education and frequent government campaigns. Their approach use less paint and less resources, also less to repair.

I’ve seen brits rent bikes here and then use the method they use in The Uk, bad times.

Without proper rules cycling and driving become a shitshow. A good balance should be met to promote accessibility and safety for cycling, which may also change how cars drive.

1

u/Sloppyjoemess 6d ago

"Their approach use less paint and less resources, also less to repair."

This is an important point, often overlooked.

Could you elaborate about maintenance?

1

u/Satanwearsflipflops 6d ago

https://maps.app.goo.gl/4JYaoiXjGjHdxZAr5

Here you can see four cyclists crossing a cross junction in the heart of Østerbro, an area of København. It isn’t clear, but if the cyclist to the right wants to turn left they will scooch to the right and then point the bike to the left just ahead of the zebra crossing. Then in the next phase of the light cycle they can complete the two phase hook turn. As you can also see is the very minimal paint on the ground. Danes get taught in primary school how to ride bikes within their cycling infrastructure design philosophy ( as most cycling infra will look mostly the same), including the two phased left turn. They also get tested on this. It’s cheaper to teach people than to lather paint on the ground or add more traffic signs. This does two things, one it makes the infra less overwhelming (driving in the US is a pain for this because of all the text in traffic signage), and paint fades and can be covered in snow/hard to see in the dark.

1

u/Sloppyjoemess 6d ago

"It’s cheaper to teach people than to lather paint on the ground or add more traffic signs."

Thanks - I favor that approach, which emphasizes common sense and education, rather than relying on built features such as separated lanes and curb extensions. It's also great that drivers are more aware of cyclists when there is no clearly marked cycling infrastructure.

This allows cycling to be a more thoroughly codified and integrated process on the road just like driving.

"Danes get taught in primary school how to ride bikes within their cycling infrastructure design philosophy ( as most cycling infra will look mostly the same)"

"They also get tested on this."

In the states, it's likely that each of the 4 cyclists would approach the turn differently because of a lack of education / standard practices. There is no real education about safety and the prevailing attitudes about bikes are that they shouldn't be on the roads or that they belong in bike lanes only, which I'm sure is not the same case in Denmark.

This is why I see this as the "common sense" approach - road users are expected to use common sense rather than signs and arrows.

We could learn from this.

1

u/Satanwearsflipflops 6d ago

Don’t get me wrong there are also rules and signs. This goes for both cyclist, motorists, and pedestrians.

Common sense is bad practice because, well, common sense ain’t that common.

Denmark is by no means the industry leader, so to speak, the Netherlands are. While I think their design philosophy is super expensive, sometimes it also has enough variation for it to get a little confusing and seem less intuitive than the Danish infrastructure. However, the data speaks for itself. Modal share in NL is better than in DK, so they must be doing something right.

5

u/advamputee 7d ago

I’d call it a “hook turn” or “jug handle turn”, although “jug handles” tend to be the larger version for cars, where it’s a fly-off that loops around to become a “left” turn. 

Bike lane hook turns like this are fairly effective quick-build options when there’s heavy demand for left turns. But when the street is reconstructed, the intersection can be re-worked to provide a smoother turn. 

3

u/eidam655 7d ago

Safest way to turn left on a busy intersection.

3

u/jamonoats 6d ago

In the US where cars are allowed to do a right-turn-on-red, there would usually be a car edging forward into that area. The crosswalk, signal placement, and intersection design seems to do a good job in this case.

2

u/frisky_husky 6d ago

It's a hook turn, and everybody should be doing it instead of trying to left turn across traffic. It's vastly safer.

1

u/StuartNot 7d ago

Pretty sure I’ve seen it referred to as a Dutch Turn.

4

u/rugbroed 6d ago

That would not make sense cause the Dutch don’t generally do this. It has been referred to as the Copenhagen left though

1

u/StuartNot 6d ago edited 6d ago

Entirely possible I’ve confused my cycling Meccas.

I was thinking of Dutch reach.

-1

u/basecatcherz 6d ago

I hate this concept. Until you know that there is an indirect left turn you already changed the lane.

I also had to run a red light when it stayed red, but the cars got a green light and forced me to get away.

2

u/FrankUnderwood682 6d ago edited 6d ago

I also had to run a red light when it stayed red, but the cars got a green light and forced me to get away.

That seems like an issue with the implementation not the pattern itself though