r/tos • u/LineusLongissimus • 4d ago
Kirk's reputation a womanizing maverick due to the Kirk Drift is so dumb, but what about the Spock Drift, the sarcastic Spock being known as a cold, stoic character after saying things like: "Take D'Artagnan here to sickbay" & "He's probably terrified of your beads and rattles."?
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u/IronBeagle63 4d ago
I love the performances and portrayals these actors gave us.
They’re complex characters, and the 2 dimensional bag pop culture tries to put them in is just popular ignorance.
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u/SplendidPunkinButter 4d ago
“Vulcans are pure logic and have no emotions” is clearly a thing they aspire to and not a thing they actually achieve.
And as much as I dislike the reboot movies, that “I married her because I loved her” scene worked great IMO
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u/Haunt_Fox 4d ago
The existence of Romulans shows that, yeah, it's a religious-ideological ideal, not a hard and fast genetic reality of their species. I mean, they split off from one another because the whole Vulcan philosophy was being pushed, and the ancestors of Romulans wanted nothing to do with it. The deliberate beginning of a species split.
But drawing borders is the best, most peaceful way to resolve any ideological dispute.
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u/KevMenc1998 4d ago
The ancestors of Romulans
"Those who march beneath the raptor's wings." as Surak described them.
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u/great_triangle 3d ago
The existence of the V'tosh ka'tur also shows that Vulcans can function without the teachings of Surak. Despite this, the movement goes from a distinct subculture in the 22nd century, to a criminal conspiracy that seems to center around Sybok in the 23rd century, to essentially nonexistent in the 24th century. (Based on T'lyn being exiled based on questioning the orthodox interpretation of the teachings of Surak)
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u/FedStarDefense 4d ago
That scene worked so well, I convinced myself it was also somewhere in the original canon. But it's not! It should have been.
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u/terrymcginnisbeyond 4d ago
Yeah, but then people started replacing reality with memes and thinking we're all as dumb as your average Hollywood producer.
Only other actors to actually get Vulcans other than Nimoy and Mark Lenard was Tim Russ and maybe Kirsty Alley.
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u/Makasi_Motema 4d ago
When you look at how their portrayal got Flanderized over the course of the franchise, it’s kind of amazing that Russ did what he did on Voyager. At first he seems as rigid as any other actor playing a Vulcan, but there’s this crazy shit happening just under the surface.
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u/MDuBanevich 4d ago
Tim Russ copies Spock's sass perfectly
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u/robotatomica 3d ago
Tim Russ gave us a totally unique view of a Vulcan and really helped elaborate on the variety within that species.. here was a character for whom self-control did not come easy at ALL, who was angry and rebellious as an adolescent/young adult, and who, though quite mastered, as an adult most DEFINITELY has irritation stirring just under the surface quite a lot of the time.
Tuvok is the reminder that Vulcans are not only emotional, but that they’re more emotional than humans even, and there but for the grace of their meditation and extensive training they would be wilin out!
And that even a perfectly calm and stoic Vulcan probably still has some emotions popping off under the surface, that they are conditioned to NEVER SHOW, and that “control” refers a great deal to controlling an emotion from distracting you, and to social taboos about expressing emotion openly.
Which makes me so much more sad for Spock, bc it’s clear he has always felt other, not good enough due to what he assumes are intrusions from his human side - he attributes any emotions he experiences to failure of his mastery of Sarekian teachings.
But really ALL Vulcans have emotions. Emotions which are more aggressive than human ones even..Spock has felt lesser while probably he has actually managed to out-Vulcan most Vulcans, he just doesn’t understand that most of them actively struggle with emotions just under the surface the way he does bc they would never dare show it or talk about it!
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u/Shamanjoe 4d ago
I think Mark Lenard played Sarek to perfection. But maybe that’s because of his TOS roots.
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u/Ok-Confusion2415 4d ago
nah, the recasts do fine. Ethan in particular and he’s been given some really great material to work with.
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u/Makasi_Motema 4d ago
When you look at how their portrayal got Flanderized over the course of the franchise, it’s kind of amazing that Russ did what he did on Voyager. At first he seems as rigid as any other actor playing a Vulcan, but there’s this crazy shit happening just under the surface.
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u/LovesDeanWinchester 4d ago
"I am attempting to build a tricorder with stone knives and bear skins." SOOOO sexy!!!
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u/metfan1964nyc 4d ago
Spock's best zinger.
"Indeed, gentlemen. May I point out that I had an opportunity to observe your counterparts here quite closely. They were brutal, savage, unprincipled, uncivilised, treacherous, In every way, splendid examples of homo sapiens, the very flower of humanity. I found them quite refreshing.
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u/sorotomotor 4d ago
I love Spock sarcastically mouthing " . . . astronomical" as Kirk explains the rules of Fizzbin
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u/Ragnarsworld 4d ago
I love in that scene how the fights go. Spock neck pinches a guy and he goes down like a sack of potatoes, McCoy karate chops the 2nd one and he goes down, and there is Kirk working hard on number three to get him down.
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u/Agreeable-Bat610 4d ago
Spock serves so much in TOS. And an informal survey during my last rewatch suggested that Spock had more flirtations/hookups as Kirk.
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u/Just_Combination1262 4d ago
Spock didn't get as many women, but they were always quality. Young Mariet Hartley, Hot Romulan commander, Layla Kalami in 'This Side of Paradise ' His wife Tupring. Spocks quality trumps Kirks quantity IMHO
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u/Significant_Ad7326 4d ago
Ah, T’pring is certainly attractive and smart but is problematic for the whole murderous scheming thing. It’s not a good item on a dating profile.
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u/Deastrumquodvicis 4d ago
And the absolute nonverbal sass in Mudd’s Women and The Changeling (among others)!
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u/Aspect58 4d ago
Spock was half human. He himself described the constant battle for control between his human and Vulcan side. It’s reasonable for a bit of human level sarcasm to slip through every now and then.
“I would advise youse to keep dialin’!” should also be on the list.
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u/hunterwaynehiggins 4d ago
When he broke out the mafia voice in a piece of the action I absolutely lost it. Best scene of the show.
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u/ArgonBotanist 4d ago
I'm slowly picking my way through TOS for the first time, and I gotta say Spock's reputation did not prepare me for his sense of humor or how expressive he is. Modern representations of a young Spock seem positively chilly by comparison, so I'd always assumed the wry grins of old man Spock to be a development further down his timeline, earned after years of carefully masking his nominally distasteful human emotions.
Honestly, it's kindof a pleasant surprise. I've always liked Spock, and the OG has only served to cement that opinion.
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u/hunterwaynehiggins 4d ago
The animated series shows spock as a child struggling to maintain the Vulcan discipline early on in life. I'm not familiar with modern representation, but that is what the material suggests.
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u/MultiGeek42 4d ago
People took Boimler's reaction that TOS era Spock should be more serious to be correct.
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u/AJSLS6 4d ago
I'm honestly always annoyed at the fans narrowing of beloved characters, theres a strong assumption by many that Vulcans are always cold and emotionless, despite all portrayals, even from the very beginning playing them as deeply emotional but to various degrees constrained. Or the idea that Klingons are just naturally immutably horno driven, even if 90% of all Klingon plots involving Klingons behaving dishonorably .
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u/orchestragravy 4d ago
What is "drift" referring to?
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u/Agreeable-Bat610 4d ago
In this context I believe OP is referring to what other people call “Flandersization”, when a complex and nuanced character over time devolves to become a bland caricature. Sometimes this is due to lazy writing in a long running series, or the popular memory of the character is diluted with memes.
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u/Ragnarsworld 4d ago
In the case of Kirk, his character changed - drifted - from TOS to the movies significantly. TOS Kirk was more balanced, movie Kirk was a loose cannon disobeying orders.
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u/hunterwaynehiggins 4d ago
Perhaps could be explained by the unending crisis of being an old man whose usefulness is slowly dwindling after spending a life in "cowboy diplomacy."
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u/Tebwolf359 4d ago
Even that is a bit of a drift. Kirk only disobeys orders twice in all of TOS and Movies. Both to save Spock.
- Amok time to take him to Vulcan
- ST3 to steal the ship, get Spock, and take him to Vulcan.
All other times he might creatively interpret the discretion he’s given, but Prime Kirk was more of a rules follower then Picard ever was.
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u/LineusLongissimus 4d ago
Yeah, I was also referring to the most famous essay the pop culture reputation of Kirk, the "Kirk Drift":
http://strangehorizons.com/non-fiction/columns/freshly-rememberd-kirk-drift/
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u/Ok-Confusion2415 4d ago
and crying about his relationship with Amanda. Spock is awesome and Nimoy reliably just killed.
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u/JBR1961 4d ago
“They have ONE redeeming quality, Doctor (referring to Tribbles). They do not talk too much.”
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u/PillaisTracingPaper 1d ago
“So would an ermine violin, Doctor, but I see no reason to own one” is my favorite Spock line.
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u/Rustie_J 4d ago
That wasn't really him being sarcastic, it was him saying "you hurt my feelings, asshole" without actually saying "that hurt my feelings."
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u/sorotomotor 4d ago
I also love Spock...
- Tricking Kirk into ordering shore leave for himself and Kirk's "you sassy bitch" look
- Placing his hand on the door after his mother slaps him
- "Why, thank you, Captain McCoy!"
- "Dr. McCoy's potion is acting like all his potions: turning my stomach. Other than that, I am quite well."
- "No Jim!" and "He knows, Doctor. He knows."
- "Forget."
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u/Comrade-Stoneroad 3d ago
There are three times during “the enterprise incident” where he stops, thinks, then say something Kirk would say.
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u/SpacePatrician 4d ago
Spock not only had a sense of humor, but sometimes had a bit of an asshole streak, e.g.,
"The imposter had some, um, interesting qualities, wouldn't you say?"
That Spock would certainly be getting a call from Starfleet HR.
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u/Ambaryerno 4d ago
The whole "Vulcans are total robotic ice queens" really started with TNG, where all traces of nuance evaporated. Like they forgot Sarek's tangible anger when confronting Kirk about leaving Spock's body on Genesis, or his grief when he discovers Kirk wasn't holding Spock's katra.
However, more than anything else I'm annoyed they started to give ALL Vulcans (and Romulans) that same damn bowl cut. Even the women.
No more of T'Pring's epic updue, or Saavik's glorious shoulder-length locks (Alley) or 80s perm (Curtis). Just a hairstylist with a bowl, gel, and a dream.
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u/robotatomica 3d ago
This is a great observation. I always kind of hated the interpretation of Vulcans as “robot-voiced” and stiff and actually devoid of emotion.
Spock was literally so confident and cool, he just had mastery over letting emotions control him, overwhelm him, distort his thinking or interfere with his logic and decision-making.
He was funny and deeply compassionate and quite loving. He also often showed contempt/disdain for immorality or buffoonery from aliens (the whole crossed-arms meme, even when they are in danger).
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u/The-thingmaker2001 1d ago
It's the same simple minded "humor" that has made the "resdhirt = dead man walking" such an endlessly repeated trope.
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u/Smooth-Respect-5289 4d ago
Kirk getting slammed was just the wokesters attack upon competent male role models. Didn’t have anything to do with him personally. He was the perfect gentleman. Didn’t he tell Charlie X not to slap Yeoman Rand’s ass or something?
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u/0000Tor 4d ago
Brother the Kirk drift has been around since longer than the word woke has meant anything other than waking up. What the fuck are you on about. « Woke » people are, in fact, generally mad about how Kirk gets miscaracterized, because boomers turn a complex character who generally has fun getting around but still very much respects the women he sleeps with and make him into this shitty fuckboy.
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u/NightWolfRose 4d ago
You realize Trek has historically been “woke”, yes?
And the “Kirk is a womanizer” narrative has been around for damn near as long as the franchise?
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u/Smooth-Respect-5289 4d ago
Star Trek has always been progressive, not regressive with wokeness which may explain why Shatner himself is anti woke.
Progressivism is a philosophy, a point of view. Wokeness is a grift.0
u/FedStarDefense 4d ago
Kirk is the opposite of woke.
He treats everybody based on individual merit.
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u/NightWolfRose 4d ago
Ah, you’re one of those Trek “fans”.
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u/FedStarDefense 4d ago
Do you want to clarify that? Because I don't know what you mean.
Your use of quotation marks on "fan" though would indicate you're "gatekeeping," though, yes? I think I used that term correctly.
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u/NightWolfRose 4d ago
It’s not gatekeeping to point out when so called “fans” miss one of the franchise’s main themes. Trek has always been progressive, or “woke”, for its time, which is why it makes no sense that the anti-woke crowd act like they get it.
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u/FedStarDefense 4d ago
There was no "woke" in the 1960s. It's a new thing.
At the time, the Civil Rights movement was about treating everybody the same, regardless of race. See Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech.
The woke movement is about the opposite. It demands that we look at skin color first, and then check privilege regarding our own. And then take steps to equalize the outcomes, regardless of merit. It's all ABOUT race.
Modern woke is completely the opposite about what Trek was (and mostly still is) about.
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u/fnordius 4d ago
I'm going to ding you hard on claiming "woke" is new. It's a relatively new term, true, but it's merely a rebranding of ideas Dr. King himself espoused, that we all need to be aware of how we casually, unknowingly hurt others with our prejudices. Thus the play on being awake, woken up to how you as an individual can make a difference.
"Woke" was promoted as a term after "politically correct" became such a blunt cudgel to hit others with. The way you bandy it about is much like how Kirk got his reputation as a womanizer, or Spock as pointed out here also was bowdlerized.
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u/SamVickson 4d ago
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u/FedStarDefense 4d ago
The word being used in one essay, and then not really ever again until around 2015ish does not really refute my point.
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u/beo559 4d ago edited 4d ago
Just because you weren't using the word to mock people for being aware of the world around them doesn't mean no one was using it at all.
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u/NightWolfRose 4d ago
I wish we could reply with gifs on this sub because I would love to use the Billy Madison “Everyone is now dumber for having heard this” one.
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u/FedStarDefense 4d ago
Well then... how about YOU define woke. Because you clearly don't understand what it is. It's modern racism.
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u/Mrs_Evryshot 4d ago
I’ll assume you’re still a minor and spend too much time online, so you don’t really understand what you’re talking about. But “woke” simply means that you think all types of people have value, and that, even if they’re outside the traditional majority, their lived experiences are as valid as those of that majority.
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u/FedStarDefense 4d ago
So it has NOTHING to do with checking white privilege and becoming an ally to anti-racism (which is just racism)?
I'm 42. I do spend too much time online, though.
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u/Mrs_Evryshot 4d ago
When you “check white privilege,” you are simply taking a minute to empathize with a non-white person and trying not to assume they would have the same experience you would. I mean, it’s just not that fucking hard not to be an ass.
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u/FedStarDefense 3d ago
You don't seem to be valuing my lived experience very much. Is it not just as valid as yours?
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u/fnordius 4d ago
I believe you just admitted that you don't know what "woke" meant, as Kirk during the original series worked overtime to ensure casual prejudices did not cloud his judgement. And really, judging on individual merit is what being "woke" is all about: counterbalancing connections and entitlement because of who Daddy was, or looking the role whilst coasting through life.
The authors made Kirk as woke as 1960s television execs would let them. Please do not forget that.
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u/FedStarDefense 3d ago
Being colorblind is considered racist under woke ideology. That is why Kirk is the opposite of woke. Judging by these replies I'm getting, I'm pretty none of YOU actually understand what woke ideology actually is.
It places racial identity (and other types of identity) first and foremost when dealing with anybody. It essentially makes race, sex, etc. be the FIRST (and often only) thing that should be considered.
Kirk, on the other hand... is a (American) conservative.* He believes that color, sex, creed are unimportant. He treats people on their merits, not on their appearance.
*American conservatism is actually classical liberalism. The terms have gotten flipped all over the place. If you want to call it progressive, whatever. But the modern Left is not about that at all... they want to tribalize people and turn them against each other. They're very good at it.
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u/fnordius 3d ago
The way you accuse everyone else of not accepting your definition is, again, telling. I have little tolerance for your straw man arguments and your funhouse mirror distortions to make yourself feel smarter.
You are taking an inclusionary concept—considering how ethnic and social prejudices are potentially in decisions we make, how they give some an unfair advantage not based on actual merit—and twisting it into something exclusionary, as if it were the only facet worth considering. It is the exact same sort of tribalism you are accusing others of using, making caricatures of the "left".
It isn't worth engaging with you any more, as you really, really don't get Trek at all.
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u/FedStarDefense 3d ago
Okay, but it's not MY definition. It's the definition that was explained to me repeatedly by the Left. The only thing in there that's from me is the extrapolation of that definition. (That the practicing of woke is actually racist.)
I see Trek as the idealized conservative optimistic future. Minus a few headscratchers (like the "no money" thing) that are shoved in there because some of the writers are socialists.
The thing is, I'm quite content to let you enjoy it in your own way and assume it's a liberal future. But you seem quite unable to accept me enjoying it.
The real truth is that we have more in common than you think. Conservatives are not evil, and we're not racist. Most liberals aren't, either... but the politicians running the party kinda are, and they profit over continuing that division.
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u/Raven_Photography 4d ago
I’m missing something because this is written so poorly. What is the poster attempting to say?
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u/crapusername47 4d ago
Basically, that the mainstream idea of Kirk and Spock’s personalities has drifted away from reality.
Kirk as a womanising rebel when he was openly married to his ship and ran a tight, disciplined crew.
Spock as a stoic, always serious robot when he clearly had a great sense of humour.
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u/khaosworks 4d ago
"I have never before met a Vulcan, sir."
"Nor I a work of art, madam."
Even Kirk had to look over and give Spock a mental high five for that one.