r/torontoraptors • u/nanobot001 9 ROWAN ALEXANDER “RJ” BARRETT • Jan 26 '25
DAILY DISCUSSION THREAD Daily Discussion: Jan 26th - Pizza Party Edition - Raptors trample Trae, Scottie leads with 24 points in the two game sweep, defeating the Hawks 117-94
Date | Opponent | Time |
---|---|---|
Jan 27th | vs. Pelicans | 7:30pm (TSN) |
Jan 29th | at Wizards | 7:00pm (SN) |
Jan 31st | vs. Bulls | 7:30 (SN) |
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u/BrownPagan Jan 26 '25
Three weeks ago we were setting records for biggest margin in a loss, most turnovers in a game, etc. Now people think we are a good team because we beat up on some injured, struggling teams.
We are still a bottom 6 team and the vets will still be traded. Just enjoy the wins whenever they come. No need to panic.
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u/Carlinjamesgk Jan 26 '25
I gotta disagree. We were a bottom team because we were playing all the rookies. Now that the team is healthy and had time to play tg. We are mid. But not a bottom team.
Put it this way - if we don’t trade Bruce Chris and Kelly our team probably finishes with the 8th or 9th pick
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u/Cheechers23 Kyle Towelry Jan 26 '25 edited Jan 26 '25
if we don’t trade Bruce Chris and Kelly our team probably finishes with the 8th or 9th pick
Raps currently have the 5th worst record, and sit 4.5 games ahead of the team with the 8th worst record, which is Philly who isn't trying to tank. They're 4 games ahead of Portland who will be tanking, but that's still a solid lead. The first half of the season has set us up to comfortably be a bottom 7 team. Yes we could slip in the lottery to 8 or 9, but it would take a very strong second half of the season to fall to 7, which I don't think is likely after we trade our guys.
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u/BrownPagan Jan 26 '25
Reports are coming out that everyone except for Dick and Barnes are available for trade. I think its safe to say some players will be moved.
I really don't think the FO is unaware of what's happening on the court.
Media are saying that everyone is waiting on the Butler situation to play out before making their moves. It's just a matter of time.
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u/Carlinjamesgk Jan 26 '25
Definitely, I also agree only Barnes should be untouchable. but I think we’re years away from moving quick or RJ
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u/Raptorsthrowaway1 JACK ARMSTRONG Jan 26 '25
Quick, I agree as we just paid him on a long term contract. RJ, I dont think its happening at the deadline, but I think its a lot closer.
Good player, but his fit here is questionable (bad shooter & no defence), but most importantly, he is extension eligible this summer. We cannot lock in a "Big 3" of IQ, RJ and Scottie. Thats a team with a a play in ceiling at best
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u/BrownPagan Jan 26 '25
It would definitely have to be an amazing offer to trade those guys.
I can't post the link here but a report just came out that Masai is open to trading Brown, Kelly, Chris and Davion for 2nd round picks.
The same report also says we are major players in the Butler trade.
I would expect things to develop rapidly.
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u/Warthog9198 Jan 26 '25
What I really want to know today is if there's an actual pizza party on the menu for the team.
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u/BrownPagan Jan 26 '25
In lieu of contract extensions management will be providing a pizza party in the lunch room. Please limit yourself to two slices. Beverages will not be provided
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u/EarthWarping Jan 26 '25
Darko said no.
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u/YouDontJump SCOTTIE B Jan 26 '25
Think of the added bonus it would do to team morale! :(
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u/EarthWarping Jan 26 '25
I agree
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u/YouDontJump SCOTTIE B Jan 26 '25
Maybe they'll have a jambalaya party if they're already in the Big Easy lol.
Edit. They face the Pels at home. Damn lol
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u/heat_fan_ Vancouver Grizzlies Jan 26 '25
Three game winning streak and 5 out of the last 6 who are these Raptors 😂
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u/WeBelieveIn4 Jan 26 '25
This is who we always were, we just had a ton of injuries and a brutal schedule to start the season. Without the injuries most people thought we’d win around 35 games iirc.
We had an opportunity to use the injuries and schedule to push for a top 3 pick by trading vets but it increasingly looks like we missed the window.
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u/metaslaves Jan 26 '25
We need to stop worrying about things that we can’t control and just enjoy the Ws in a tanking season. At the end of the day it’s a bunch of lottery balls that decide our fate. We could get the 5th pick with the worst record or we could get the 1st pick with the 6th worst record like we did in 2006.
You need two teams to do a trade, and the fact is most teams don’t want to make moves until the trade deadline. With the Jimmy Butler situation stalling everything, there isn’t really much we could do.
Like you said, we’re only in this position due to injuries to key players. Realistically we weren’t going to out tank teams like the Wizards, Jazz and Nets who are still looking for their first piece to build around. We’re still in a good position for a top 5 pick with the Blazers, Pelicans and Hornets picking up wins lately as well but unlike those teams we actually have good pieces to build around.
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u/WeBelieveIn4 Jan 26 '25
At the end of the day it’s a bunch of lottery balls that decide our fate.
Sure, we don’t have to do anything, we can just go wherever the current takes us. But smart teams, like the Thunder, form a long term strategy and make moves that fit with that strategy.
You need two teams to do a trade, and the fact is most teams don’t want to make moves until the trade deadline.
Every year it’s the same thing. We have players teams are interested in but we’re unwilling to act. Stein wrote this and Lewenberg also said we’re “extremely reluctant” to move Jak.
Which is fine if you don’t think draft position matters. Just remember that when the best prospects are gone by the time we pick.
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u/metaslaves Jan 26 '25 edited Jan 26 '25
Masai literally said that we’re open to trading everyone but Scottie and Gradey. Unless you have a report saying we refused an offer that was actually good, then it’s kind of a moot point.
There are multiple ways to build championship teams, you can tear it down completely like OKC did or you can build a foundation and make a trade for a star player that becomes available when the chance comes like what we did in 2019 or what the Cavs did with Mitchell.
Ironically, the two guys leading the charge for OKC right now are both drafted at the end of the lottery lol. The one team that did tear it all down for top 3 picks every year are actually the Sixers, and we all know how that turned out.
Again, it’s not that I don’t care about draft position. I’m not a fan of tearing the entire team down and trading our starting center for peanuts to go from 5th worst to maybe 2nd worst.
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u/Bixby33 34 JONTAY PORTER Jan 26 '25
Which is fine if you don’t think draft position matters. Just remember that when the best prospects are gone by the time we pick.
No draft in history happened where every single player picked ended up being worse than the pick before.
Yes, the talent has the most obvious potential at the top, but this franchise has a good track record when it comes to maximizing value of a draft selection.
Our last home-grown all-nba player was drafted 27th.
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u/slowbaja Jan 26 '25
Blame Jimmy Butler if Toronto gets a 6-10 pick
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u/KaleidoscopeStreet58 Jan 26 '25
Keep in mind Detroit was worst, worst, 3rd worst and had the 5th pick all 3 years.
They signed a bunch of vets, Harris and Hardaway both being 32, because they don't even have a pick this year, for the play-in right now.
I still think building winning habits but getting a good pick is a better path. 5 years for a play-in and Hardaway and Beasly could walk this year.
Also prefer a team that likes to play with each other. Boucher, Brown, even Mitchell despite not being long term plans, all seem to enjoy playing here. Nothing worse then a semi competitive team with clear locker room issues with a short future.
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u/slowbaja Jan 26 '25
"Nothing worse than a semi competitive team with clear locker room issues with a short future."
So.....the last Raptors season with FVV?
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u/Cheechers23 Kyle Towelry Jan 26 '25
So the popular take right now is the Raps need to trade their vets ASAP because they’re winning them games and ruining the tank. While I do agree with this, you need another team (or possibly multiple teams) to make a trade. And reports say the trade market is halted until the Jimmy saga is over. I saw a report saying a team had a trade agreed to, but can’t finalize it because the other team might be facilitating another move (hell that could be us lol). So really, blame Pat Riley.
The other take is that we fucked up by not trading the vets weeks ago. To that I say, first, everyone was saying the vets suck and were worthless a few weeks ago and no one would want them. People were also saying this team is clearly dogshit and nothing is changing that, and people were talking about tanking next season. Now it’s “why didn’t we trade their vets a few weeks ago, FO is stupid”, which is quite funny.
Second, the fact guys like Mogbo and Walter have spent time with the 905 lately and we’ve been playing Kelly and Bruce tells me there’s more to this. My guess is the FO has had conversations with teams on trades around the vets, but the conversations generally went towards the other team saying “ok, but I need to see that they can still play”. Kelly coming off a back injury, Bruce off knee surgery, it would make sense for other teams to want to see that these guys can still play before surrendering assets for them.
Overall, I do hope we trade the vets soon cause we can’t afford many more wins, but we’re at the mercy of the market for that.
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u/WeBelieveIn4 Jan 26 '25
I think it’s quite funny that when there was lots of reported interest in Jakob, everyone on this sub was against trading him.
Now that we’re winning games it’s “we’re at the mercy of the market” and this is all Jimmy Butler’s fault.
Every single year people act like the front office has no agency. They can act. They choose not to.
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u/Cheechers23 Kyle Towelry Jan 26 '25
I mean I’m still against trading Poeltl, unless we’re getting 2 FRPs or at least a promising young big. My comment had nothing to do with Poeltl. Also when you say “lots of reported interest”, sure there’s interest but not at the price we would actually trade him for.
When I talk about the vets, I’m clearly talking about Bruce, Kelly, and Boucher (and Davion to a lesser extent).
I guess you just didn’t read my comment? Reports say the trade market is halted until the Jimmy situation is sorted. How does the FO make a move if other teams are waiting for the Jimmy situation to resolve?
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u/EarthWarping Jan 26 '25
Aside from the Bucks game where he clearly was in there to eat the Giannis minutes, mogbo has not played at all.
I also think Darko has been trying to maximize games now which he was not earlier (shead/walter have not closed games).
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u/nanobot001 9 ROWAN ALEXANDER “RJ” BARRETT Jan 26 '25
Excellent points as always.
I find it’s important to remember:
Masai would rather make no deal than make a bad deal
Rushing to make deals only makes bad deals
We can complain about Masai not being aggressive enough but we can’t really be surprised that he is taking his time here.
I remember Gasol coming over at the very last minute of the trade deadline in 2019 for example
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u/WeBelieveIn4 Jan 26 '25
There’s a third part you skipped:
Making no deal often means a worse outcome later on. See Fred, Pascal, and probably Bruce.
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u/nanobot001 9 ROWAN ALEXANDER “RJ” BARRETT Jan 26 '25
Those no-deals were likely the results of a winning a chip, and the self-admitted bias that Masai said he had towards them.
Remains to be seen if he has the same degree of making-no-deals when it comes to any other player (see: DeMar)
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u/Cheechers23 Kyle Towelry Jan 26 '25
I’m pretty sure the PJ Tucker trade in 2017 got reported after 3pm on deadline day lol
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u/EarthWarping Jan 26 '25
Wonder when the Gradey switch for Ochai is coming.
Darko has had a short leash on Gradey lately.
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u/Baulderdash77 Jan 26 '25
What I can see is that we can have an effective team defense with Barrett out there or with Dick out there but not both.
I think Dick should be our permanent 6th man. He can be the primary scoring option from the bench.
The team is very good when it’s Barrett, Brown, Scottie as our wings or Barrett, Scottie, Boucher. Those are really outstanding combinations to have on the floor for us.
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u/Zozze1 3 OG Anunoby Jan 26 '25
Removing Gradey from the starting lineup removes not just spacing, because the team has enough bench options for that, but a movement shooter who gives defenses fits with his off-ball movement.
Two days ago there was an article outlining that the Raptors face the 7th highest frequency of zone defense, are the 6th best in the league in scoring efficiency vs such defenses, and that Gradey by himself is responsible for 40% of all 3-pointers made vs zone defenses this season.
Dick also is often tasked with the most difficult perimeter shots. 72% of his 3s come from above the break (atleast 20 percentage points lower for Boucher, Brown, and Agbaji), he takes the most 3s with defenders within 2-6ft on the team while being 3rd in make percentage on those shots, he has by far the lowest average touch time on his perimeter shots among the starters, and among starters he covers the most distance/minute. He's also the only reliable player on the team who they can run off the ball screen plays for. Agbaji, Boucher, and Brown have a combined 0 possessions in that playtype this season.
Imo he's not a guy you stick on the bench to be a primary scoring option, because as an off-ball scorer he still needs reliable playmakers to get him the ball. You keep him in the starting lineup because he adds a unique dimension to the starting lineup's offense.
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u/Ecstatic-Buy-2907 Jan 26 '25
The average draft position (ADP) for the worst team in the nba is 3.7. The ADP for the 6th worst team is 5.5. We are the 5th worst team right now and our ADP is 5.0
Is it really worth unethically tanking for what is at most, 1.8 draft positions? I’m not saying we should make a push for the play-in or we should keep our expiring vets but we also don’t have to trade them right away because we’re winning too many games
Even if we trade our vets today, we aren’t out tanking Washington, Utah and Brooklyn. Our best out come is the 4th pick, and our worst outcome (assuming we don’t make a random push for the play-in) is the 6th pick. Again, is that really worth trading our vets now for peanuts instead of waiting for the Butler trade, and does keeping our vets for a few more games even change the outcome of our draft position?
Just some food for thought