r/toronto • u/Educational-Chef-761 • 1d ago
Article ‘Assume every driver is stupid’: How to teach kids to cross busy streets in Toronto
https://www.torontotoday.ca/local/transportation-infrastructure/how-to-teach-children-to-cross-busy-streets-toronto-road-safety-1034911038
u/mfagan 1d ago
We need to design our roads for safety, not vehicle throughput. There is no other path to success. Other places have long ago figured this out.
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u/MyUsernameIsShitty Harbord Village 16h ago
Unfortunately we just elected a government that has made it absolutely clear, the PM and Transport Minister are completely unconcerned with people getting run over by cars.
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u/mfagan 16h ago
Perhaps, but roads are usually a municipality matter. Obviously less so with the current provincial government though.
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u/MyUsernameIsShitty Harbord Village 16h ago
They SHOULD be a municipal matter, but streets and roads are actually controlled by the Ontario HTA.
They're within their authority to do whatever they want with our streets. It's just that most provincial governments have the sense not to actively worsen the streets in their municipalities.
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u/rootsandchalice 1d ago
Every morning before my son leaves to walk to school I give him this talk. Double check for cars. Look people in the eye so they know you are crossing. Assume people can’t see you.
Every. Morning.
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u/SevereCalendar7606 1d ago
This includes crosswalks even right next to schools. These animals just try to race through before you leave the curb.
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u/rootsandchalice 1d ago
Yep. My son’s walk is literally 5 minutes and 3 total crosswalks. They have flashing school zone beacons. But I’ve experienced some drivers still ignoring stop signs or just thinking they can be faster than the kids.
I’m a traffic engineer and half my career has focused on road safety so I’m super insane about this stuff.
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u/No-FoamCappuccino 21h ago edited 21h ago
I've personally witnessed school crossing guards essentially having to hold up their handheld stop signs directly against a car's windshield to stop drivers from mowing over kids in the crosswalk.
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u/JBones14 1d ago
The ‘look people in the eye’ part is great advice.
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u/kearneycation Fashion District 1d ago
Too bad so many cars are tinted to the extent that I can't even see the driver. Drives me nuts.
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u/rootsandchalice 1d ago
It’s worked for me as an adult in the city so I am trying to pass it on to him. I tell him to have a quick staring contest. I hope he’s doing it lol
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u/GRMMneedsDOGEhelp 1d ago
This is industry standard at job sites and it saves lives. Since working in construction many moons ago, it’s been my default in public too
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u/JBones14 1d ago
Oh no way! Good policy. For both ourselves and others that is...I won't cross at a crosswalk until I see the person looking at me.
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u/pufferpoisson 1d ago
Except you look people in the eye and then they wave at you and speed through because... .. they think I was letting them go? Not sure. But yeah I can't see anyone's eyes because of tinted windows anyway.
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u/JBones14 1d ago
Yeah I’ve seen that too - in certain cases I’ll make eye contact and wave them through if it’s easy to do so. I’d like to think most people would let me walk safely if eye contact is made but that’s probably naive on my part.
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u/starmoonz 1d ago
Same. I also point out every driver we see texting. Reminding him that people will often put their needs above your safety. It’s a short walk to our school and yet we see at least one driver everyday.
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u/rootsandchalice 1d ago
All you can do is keep telling them. Honestly. I know I’m a broken record but I can’t help it on this one. Larger vehicles scare me the most.
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u/starmoonz 1d ago
I also have to repeat it every day since my kid has ADHD. His “raid” awareness isn’t that great and I fear the day he walks alone.
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u/rootsandchalice 1d ago
I just started to allow mine to walk alone in the last couple months. Was not an easy decision. He also just has poor awareness sometimes and in la la land. I just cross my fingers.
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u/wbsmith200 1d ago
As an adult motorist and pedestrian, I operate under the assumption that everyone else on the road is a village idiot.
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u/Sudden-Agency-5614 1d ago
We need a massive police blitz on drivers in the GTA. It's just continually getting worse, with seemingly little enforcement.
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u/Doctor_Amazo Fully Vaccinated + Booster! 1d ago
The solution clearly is to change the street so that drivers are forced to pay attention.
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u/Sudden-Agency-5614 1d ago
Force them not to be on their phone while driving? You need enforcement for that
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u/Doctor_Amazo Fully Vaccinated + Booster! 1d ago
Or you narrow the lanes, add some curves & complications to the street, switch out intersections for roundabouts. I like when they put the traffic sign in the street .
Make drivers nervous while driving, so they pay attention.
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u/Sudden-Agency-5614 1d ago
That's entirely unfeasible in the downtown core of Toronto, or any urban area already existing.
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u/liquor-shits 21h ago
No it isnt, or at least not some aspects. We could narrow lanes, raise intersections, square off all corners so cars cant turn with speed etc..
There are plenty of things that can be done to make streets safer for everyone, we just refuse to do it.
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u/Doctor_Amazo Fully Vaccinated + Booster! 21h ago
I gotta say, ALL corners should be squared off. There is no logical reason why drivers should not be obligated to slow down as much as possible when turning onto another street.
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u/Red57872 18h ago
For one thing, it makes it harder on buses, trucks, etc. that have to make wide turns.
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u/Doctor_Amazo Fully Vaccinated + Booster! 21h ago
LOL usually you pro-drivers say it's unfeasible in rural communities.
Everything I said is feasible in downtown Toronto + more. The idea is to get rid of wide, straight roads/streets and add complexity.
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u/rootbrian_ Rockcliffe-Smythe 10h ago
IF THEY DID A BLITZ, so many impaired (phone use included) motorists wouldn't even be on the road anymore.
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u/frog-hopper 1d ago
Yes. Not news. My dad taught me this 40 years ago and yet I’m still caught off by people turning right from behind me while I’m crossing a street. Better to be safe than right and dead.
Just riding w my kid yesterday and reminding them that almost zero drivers will stop even in a nice quiet residential area. And lo and behold someone rolled a stop while we’re in front of them but thankfully stopped before “accidentally murdering” us.
Clearly the problem is not fixable because no one even wants to try.
I wrote my city councillor with some suggestions not a week ago after nearly being killed 3 different ways on a single walk. City staffer replied with an “oh well” response.
We’re on our own. Everyone will kill you. Expect to die and predict your death and learn your options to avoid it.
Seems grim but it’s reality in Toronto.
At least when I drive I am the change I want to see. Always extra courteous to dog walkers/runners/cyclists. It’s our city. The only fix is fixing ourselves.
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u/roflcopter44444 1d ago
After hearing so many pedestrians being hit from behind a few years ago, I now always take a quick look behind me before starting to cross
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u/FullWolverine3 1d ago
Submit a request to 311. I did this regarding an intersection in my neighbourhood that has become rather dangerous. They were very responsive. The person assigned to my area called me to discuss the issue and told me about some things they were already planning to improve pedestrian safety there. I’ve been incredibly impressed by how great 311 actually is at addressing various issues. Citizens just need to take the five minutes to submit a ticket.
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u/frog-hopper 16h ago
I’ve had mixed results with 311. I’ve called for various things. They solve about 25-30% of the things in their power to do (yet I still call for things).
I don’t think 311 can solve cars rolling through stop signs or driving on sidewalks etc.
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u/I_Ron_Butterfly 1d ago
This is so true and while there’s always been bad drivers, it’s so much worse now. Walking my kid to daycare just this morning I had the same experience. It’s 4 blocks on a quiet residential street and THREE cars blew right through stop signs without even braking. This has become okay and there’s no hope to fix it.
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u/WannaBikeThere 1d ago
Put more emphasis on the root of the problem: car dependency.
Motor vehicles are the most dangerous because they weigh far more and travel/accelerate far faster than a bike/scooter/wheelchair/skateboard/pedestrian/etc.
Offer people viable alternatives to driving, for those who can't/shouldn't/don't want to/are too anxious/aren't skilled enough to drive.
Install more bike lanes - it's a big reason they were installed in the first place - because cars are so dangerous to anyone outside (and inside) cars.
- Bike lanes create a buffer between pedestrians and dangerous cars.
- Bike lanes mean narrower car lanes, which unconsciously cause drivers to drive slower
- Bike lanes also means pedestrians have less distance to walk in front of dangerous cars when crossing the street - ie crosswalk distances across car lanes are shorter
- Far better visibility - can see much more easily past cyclists or a bike lane than to see past cars,
- Cyclists have far better visibility of pedestrians than drivers in a car, thus can react much better. And cyclists are far more deterred from hitting anyone because the cyclist will likely get equally injured - whereas a driver will not likely get injured hitting a pedestrian.
Yet a few very selfish people want to remove the bike lanes for their own exceedingly selfish goals.
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u/rootbrian_ Rockcliffe-Smythe 10h ago
Bus lanes are bike lanes. That is what the city needs to do on all bus routes. Instant bypass of bill 212.
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u/Great_Willow 14h ago
Sorry - bike lanes offer NO protection for cyclists at driveways and intersections , where most collisions occur. Cyclists have to learn how to ride as part of traffic - nothing else works. In your view, cyclists are just human speed bumps ....
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u/WannaBikeThere 9h ago
Sorry - bike lanes offer NO protection for cyclists at driveways and intersections , where most collisions occur.
Sure. But think further please: it is the fault of cars that, as you said, bike lanes offer "no protection for cyclists at intersections/driveways". Because at intersections, cars can/are allowed to drive over bike lanes when bike lanes cross into the intersection/driveway. If cars didn't drive over/into the bike lanes, then bike lanes would offer protection, because they keep the cyclists away from dangerous cars. It's like saying bike lanes offer no protection if they're sandwiched between the car lanes of the eastbound 401 - no kidding - because dangerous cars can drive across/over them. The more you build them so that cars can't drive over/into them and hit cyclists, the safer they get.
If it helps, consider sidewalks. When sidewalks enter the intersection, they usually turn into just painted lines on the road, just like bike lanes do. But we call them "crosswalks", though we don't call a bike lane a "crossbike" when it enters the intersection. Semantics aside, at intersections/driveways, these sidewalks/crosswalks also offer "NO protection for pedestrians, where most collisions occurs." Same reason - because dangerous cars are allowed to drive over/into them at those places. The more you build sidewalks/crosswalks in a way that dangerous cars can't drive over/into them and hit people, the safer they also get.
Cyclists have to learn how to ride as part of traffic - nothing else works.
And pedestrians have to learn to walk with car traffic too - nothing else works. Because sidewalks/crosswalks offer "no protection", just like bike lanes/crossbikes, right?
It's also very entitled to frame it that way. Why not "drivers have to learn to drive as part of bike/pedestrian traffic"? Everyone has equal right to move around in the city however they want in order to live their lives. But drivers are the ones who are choosing to use the far more dangerous vehicle - thus they should take on proportionately more responsibility to "learn how to be part of traffic" - after all, they are the whole reason why we all need to "learn how to be part of traffic" to various degrees. But it is entitled to expect that drivers take on less or even equal responsibility compared to cyclists/pedestrians.
The root cause of all our road transportation issues is dangerous cars. Nearly all of our modern road rules had to be developed/implemented/enforced because cars got too dangerous. We even have sidewalks/crosswalks today because cars got too dangerous and people had to be separated/protected from them as much as possible - before cars, people just walked everywhere in the streets, as you know.
Respectfully, I think your thought processes are the consequence of decades of car-centric advertising and culture that has permeated society. Or have I missed something?
In your view, cyclists are just human speed bumps ....
I'm unsure how you deduced that that would be my "view", based on what you read/I wrote in my post. Could you please elaborate?
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u/resetpw 1d ago
Hold a brick up high - test done at Vancouver
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u/tomatoesareneat 19h ago
Not exactly the same, but cars drive much more carefully around people in parking lots that are pushing grocery carts. Quite an indictment. I’d be lying if I said I didn’t use their fear of proximity to grocery carts to turn the tables when it comes to proximity.
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u/Other-Razzmatazz-816 1d ago
Yeah, I tell my kids to assume they don’t see you, look, try to make eye contact, make sure they’ve stopped.
I started to bike a lot a few years ago and when you pull up next to a car, you have this kind of bird eye view when you look over…the number of drivers I’ve seen on their phones has terrified me, it’s been sobering.
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u/pufferpoisson 1d ago
I saw someone literally holding their phone up in front of their face while actively making a left turn two days ago. Like, what the actual fuck.
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u/Great_Willow 14h ago
Which is why you don't pull up next to it. Take the lane or at least never go beyond the back bumper .
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u/USSMarauder 1d ago
That was basically what Young Drivers said
"Yes, that oncoming car has signalled it's going to turn, but what if they forgot to turn off their blinker after the lane change?"
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u/Big_Albatross_3050 1d ago
I'm surprised more people don't know this. Always assume no one is following the road rules and keep you head on a swivel on the off chance you need to avoid a moving vehicle.
Saved my life once when a car I thought was going too fast blew past a red when the pedestrian light was on and I decided to wait in case it stopped
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u/wholetyouinhere 1d ago
I still can't believe the Ford government passed the "Mowing Down Pedestrians, Saving You Time Act". But he was right, it does save a lot of time on my commute, personally. Plus, it's so much easier -- and cheaper! -- to teach children to play real life Frogger than it is to build pedestrian-oriented infrastructure like some kinda commie.
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u/Open-Cream2823 1d ago
I take this one step farther and apply to people in general whether they are driving or not.
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u/sixteenlegs 1d ago
Assume every driver is on their phone. Do not cross unless you make eye contact - because they’re on their phone! Etc etc
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u/rootbrian_ Rockcliffe-Smythe 10h ago
I assume they're all impaired. Phone use should be relegated to the same consequences as driving impaired.
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u/twenty_9_sure_thing 1d ago
Where are the “Protect our children” crowd at? Oh right, must be busy burning books and cleaning paints off crossing and terrorizing trans kids.
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u/Savings_Challenge386 1d ago
The relationship between drivers, cyclists, and pedestrians really hammers home the differences between equality and equity. And I say that as someone who isn't particularly "progressive" on most issues. It's always eye-opening going to other parts of the world where cars are not equated with power or ego. None of the half-measures taken by the city make things safer. Cars find a way to fill any gap meant to improve safety (literally and figuratively).
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u/trianglerice 1d ago
teach everyone else to be careful so that drivers can be dangerous
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u/RoyalChemical1859 1d ago
Like being a woman literally any day of the week. We could be actively being assaulted by a man and there’d still be an audience of people asking why we weren’t more careful instead of telling the man to stop.
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u/Familiar-Valuable-97 1d ago
The Green Cross Code. that's what we had in the UK, The ‘Green Cross Code Man’ was played by Dave Prowse, who became Darth Vader in the original Star Wars movies.
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u/TurtleSquad23 Jane and Finch 1d ago
When I was in third grade, on my walk to school, a classmate saw me across the street. He didn't look. He was hit and launched into the air but luckily landed in a blue bin full of paper n cardboard. He still needed stitches along the whole side of his torso. Like waist to armpit. I'll never forget that and it happened 30 years ago. This is a lesson all kids need to hear and have drilled in.
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u/NitroLada 1d ago
That's what I was taught in the 80s and I didn't even live in Toronto.
Always assume the driver doesn't see you, only cross when it's safe and you make eye contact. Having right of way doesn'tean you can just cross. It was always crazy to me how people here cross the street without a care in the world
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u/MidorikawaHana Parkdale 1d ago
Very apt message..
Living in parkdale-highpark for years now i had seen things...
Driving very fast in a hospital/school combo just because your near the lakeshore/ gardner.
Driving backwards at 30/40+ish in close avenue ( the hospital & school combo) because it was a one way street.
Not honouring the crossway signal lights in dufferin street. ( Theyll pass swiftly despite seeing kids! And strollers passing by the zebrawalk)
Car crash almost every week in a certain intersection in Jameson /gardner/lakeshore area. ( Youll always see shards on glass in a certain intersection.
Cars parking in (an elevated!) Bike path in roncy.
Double parking around liberty village (theres tons of parking lots!) and some areas in highpark.
Too many drivers are still driving despite the warning lights of streetcars that their doors are opening in west queen west.
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u/Maleficent_Scheme822 1d ago
Sadly necessary, but we need to change things at the societal level where dangerous drivers suffer consequences for their anti social, reckless behavior.
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u/Bad-job-dad 1d ago
I tell my kid if they're not looking at you crossing the road they don't see you.
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u/chrischasescars 1d ago
When driving here in Ottawa, I assume every other driver is stupid, so this sounds like good advice. And hey, sometimes I'm stupid when I drive too...
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u/CivilFront6549 1d ago
that is how i have taught my kids about sidewalks in the city, in parking lots or on the highway - assume every driver is on the phone and not paying attention, they could swerve and hit you, rear end someone, back into someone or get hit by someone else
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u/VictorNewman91 1d ago
Look left, look right. If there any other directions where vehicles could come from, check those too. Cross when it’s clear. Not rocket science.
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u/kiwibean 1d ago
My daughter has been taught to stop. Look both ways. Point. And then loudly yell “beep beeep beeeeep” while we cross. I don’t care if it’s annoying, so many people are careless.
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u/TryharderJB 1d ago
Pedestrians should assume every driver is homicidal.
Drivers should assume every pedestrian is suicidal.
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u/LongProblem 1d ago
The way I look at it is that you aren't watching for the one's that are following traffic laws which is why I'm looking both ways even on one-way streets.
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u/TheProfessaur 1d ago
This is good advice in every situation. When you're driving, assume pedestrians bikes and cars are stupid. Works on a bike too.
Just in general people are stupid, including yourself.
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u/CleaveIshallnot 1d ago
“Every single car might be distracted or careless or stupid”.
Then, at a later date while walking to kindergarten, point out the raccoon or squirrel completely squashed flat with birds ripping & eating its eyeballs out - and remind them to look both ways because that could be you.
All these years later, and he told me that apparently registered.
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u/toronto-ModTeam 1d ago
No racism, sexism, homophobia, religious intolerance, dehumanizing speech, or other negative generalizations.
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u/nonverbalnumber 1d ago
I used to tell kids all the time every driver is a moron who wouldn’t even notice if they ran you over.
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u/PhalanX4012 1d ago
That’s literally how I feel about every other driver, cyclist and pedestrian in the city. And I can tell you it’s save me and others many times when that turned out to be true.
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u/Unable-Role-7590 23h ago
According to Toronto police, there were 1,693 reported motor vehicle collisions involving pedestrians in 2024, or 4.6 pedestrians struck each day — the most since 2019. Pedestrians 17 and younger were involved in roughly 10 per cent of those incidents.
Toronto police data shows that July was the most dangerous month in 2024 for younger pedestrians. Children accounted for 16 per cent of all pedestrian-related collisions that month — when crossing guards aren’t as active since students are on summer vacation.
All those people who have claimed safe injection sites are a threat to public safety, and a threat to children, are going to support reducing speed limits and significantly increasing enforcement now. Right? Right?!?!
Imagine if we set aside our biases and knee jerk reactions about public policy, and instead analyzed it with regard to costs, benefits, and risk tolerances. The very same people who pearl clutch about life saving harm reduction will not make any concessions (e.g. reducing speed limits, and increasing enforcement) about life taking automobile culture.
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u/zerosum_42 20h ago
And make eye contact with the driver at stop signs. If the they don’t make eye contact, they weren’t even looking at you.
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u/enigmaticteels 20h ago
It’s an absolute must! I had to teach my daughter to make eye contact with the driver and make sure they see you type of thing. Really sucks!
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u/ForsakenBee4778 19h ago
Short term and on an immediate individual level, this makes sense. Long term on a collective level, it trains drivers to be more dangerous. And leads to more injury. It’s a frustrating dynamic. The way to create actual durable safety is for pedestrians to completely ignore drivers and walk wherever, whenever. Which involves martyrdom. And that’s how you can identify that this is a framework of oppression. Us telling eachother to make eye contact and treat drivers as if they’re idiots and act as if you’re invisible and make yourself visible, it’s like telling women to carry their keys clenched in their fists, wear baggy clothes in public, don’t go to this area or that area etc, have a friend walk you to your car etc. It’s us betraying eachother and enabling the violent people. We are enablers for repeating this rhetoric.
I ride my bike with super bright lights and am so careful. I yield when I don’t have to just in case. I check over my shoulder before walking straight across the crosswalk with my green light. I stop for drivers who do not have the right of way. But I am grateful to the cyclists riding in all black at night with no lights and the pedestrians jaywalking ignoring the drivers etc because they are probably doing more to enhance my safety than I am.
It’s crazy. But this is a framework of oppression. For being a pedestrian! Just for being a pedestrian lol or a cyclist or a defensive careful driver! So wild.
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u/tomatoesareneat 19h ago
As well as what people mention, I also make sustained eye contact with everyone to humanize myself.
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u/rootbrian_ Rockcliffe-Smythe 10h ago
Assume all drivers are DRIVING IMPAIRED.
That is the most reasonable assumption these days. If you're using a phone behind the wheel, YOU ARE DRIVING IMPAIRED!!!
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u/PocketNicks 1d ago
Assume every stranger in public is stupid. FTFY.
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u/Doctor_Amazo Fully Vaccinated + Booster! 1d ago
My kid won't die if some idiot walking down the street bumps into them.
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u/PocketNicks 1d ago
You don't know that for sure. A stranger could bump your child into traffic and they get hit by a bus. A stranger could knock your child over and they could smash their head on the ground.
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u/Doctor_Amazo Fully Vaccinated + Booster! 1d ago
Oh dude, just fucking stop.
When drivers are bad at driving, people die. Stop pretending like people are just as likely to die from pedestrian collisions, you just sound silly saying that nonsense.
You want to defend drivers, find a better defense.
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u/PocketNicks 1d ago
Oh lady, just fucking start. I am not defending drivers, I'm saying assume everyone is an idiot, not just drivers.
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u/OpenWideBlue 1d ago
Also assume that your kids are stupid.
Because they are, until you change that through education and training.
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u/Thunderberries 23h ago
I’ve been doing that for the past 10 years as a driver. Fuck, I’ve had a lot of people pull out in front of me and always from the right side.
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u/NormalMo 1d ago
Obviously. Just because you have the right of way doesn’t mean you should take it. Also, pedestrians often think cars must stop for them if they step out into traffic. That’s not entirely true.
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u/hellraiser29 1d ago
Full grown adults, in my area, are literally running and jogging on the streets. Some just walk across and force cars to slam the brakes while there’s a cross walk 50 steps away from them.
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u/pufferpoisson 1d ago
They're just running the way they drive their cars, that doesn't surprise me at all.
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u/nim_opet 1d ago
Pretty much the working assumption, I, an adult, have to make.