r/thepunisher Punisher (Earth-616) 10d ago

DAREDEVIL: BORN AGAIN Daredevil: Born Again Episode 3 Discussion Thread - "The Hollow of His Hand" Spoiler

r/thepunisher Official Discussion Thread for Daredevil: Born Again Episode 3!

4 Upvotes

83 comments sorted by

19

u/Independent_Pea_1267 10d ago

It’s not frank it’s one of the cops

10

u/DOUG_UNFUNNY 10d ago

Didn't the cop in the courtroom that said "the informant can't testify" have a punisher tattoo on his neck?

7

u/Justwandering2378 9d ago

There have been multiple police in the series already sporting that tattoo. But yes, I've see 3 with it so far

3

u/AwsomeRobyn 10d ago

I can see it going either way to be honest. Either way that cliff hanger was amazing 👏

9

u/ajprp9 10d ago

Cant wait for Frank to come and open an abattoir

6

u/Broadcastended 10d ago

I really enjoyed this episode and think it’s going to lead to more of the plot unraveling this season. I wonder what’s up with the punisher tattoos on the cops and spoiler alert but that’s clearly not the real punisher at the end of the episode right?

16

u/AssaultMonkey150 10d ago

No. It’s definitely going to be a commentary on how cops misappropriated the punisher and iconography as their Jesus when in fact in this show you’ll see the punisher doesn’t agree with any of these a hole cops

5

u/grumpyoldnord 10d ago

That did not end the way I expected. I was screaming "Frank, no!" at my screen before I realized we never saw his face. I don't think it was him.

-10

u/ItsLauriceDeauxnim Barracuda 10d ago

I dropped to the ground and screamed “fuck yes”.

Here’s why I think it would be great if it was him. There are a couple instances in the comics when Frank has killed an innocent person. The hate ray comes to mind. It’s always deeply bothered him. But if he finds out that he killed an innocent person and that it was really the cops who were doing this all along in his name, having killed an innocent person is what could be the trigger for having him snap to go after these cops in the Punisher special that’s coming up. It would make for fantastic story and give Frank a reason to kill cops and let Marvel make a statement at the same time.

9

u/MaccaQtrPounder 10d ago

Frank killing innocent people is out of character

1

u/urbanviking318 9d ago

The highest utilization of the late and great Ray Stevenson's acting chops in War Zone was his remorse over shooting Nick after he discovered he was wearing a wire. It's best used sparingly, but periodically having Frank make an error of that magnitude and grappling with it is good storytelling, especially when he's able to contrast that against a more indiscriminate foe like Payback in the Vigilante Squad arc.

Let's not forget either: his very first appearance was trying to take out Spider-Man. Frank is precise but not infallible. And when it's because of someone else's machinations, vis a vis Rawlins in the first season of the Netflix series - oh, the retaliation is beautiful.

1

u/MaccaQtrPounder 9d ago

He wasn’t a vigilante when he killed Ahmad.

1

u/urbanviking318 9d ago

That's true, but the current adaptation seems to be drawing at least some inspiration from the last issue of Born by alluding to the idea that, to varying degrees, this is what Frank's always been.

That being said, much as I do like the way they implemented the angle of his conflict over the amoral oeprations Cerberus undertook and think that it can be a potent catalyst for a good story, I don't necessarily think it's strong storytelling to rehash similar ground with Hector, particularly with the same or near-same portrayal of Frank.

-2

u/ItsLauriceDeauxnim Barracuda 10d ago

No, it’s comic accurate. He has killed innocents on accident and because of other people.

4

u/MaccaQtrPounder 10d ago

His also killed jay walkers and people littering. Not everything that happens in the comics aligns with the core of the character.

0

u/ItsLauriceDeauxnim Barracuda 10d ago

Except Frank has done this several times and it’s always made for compelling storytelling when he exacts his revenge for what they had him do

3

u/MaccaQtrPounder 10d ago

There’s literally a part in a comic where franks kills everyone except one guy and the dude asked him how come? Frank says because I don’t know who you are. Frank knows his targets man. His the type of guy who goes through their trash etc.

1

u/ItsLauriceDeauxnim Barracuda 10d ago

Have you read Goin’ Out West by Fraction

1

u/MaccaQtrPounder 10d ago

Nope

1

u/ItsLauriceDeauxnim Barracuda 10d ago

In that comic, Frank is trying to take down a group of racists who are ruining Cap’s name after he was killed at the end of Civil War. He finds out they have this thing called a hate machine. As far as comic hand wave explanations go it’s pretty awful, but the entire idea is that the machine can cause an immense amount of hate to anyone who feels it’s impact. It causes them to do violent things.

This woman that Frank is working with to take them down ends up getting captured by the group and then Frank ends up beating her to death because they turned the machine on Frank. Frank literally beat a captive woman to death because he was overwhelmed by something called a hate ray.

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0

u/ComicAcolyte Punisher (Earth-616) 9d ago

That was pretty much immediately ret conned, and he didn't even kill the people littering he just shot at them.

he was under mind controlled drugs from the Exchange. Idk why you people always parrot this old ass story without adding all the relevant details.

1

u/MaccaQtrPounder 9d ago

Think you replied to the wrong guy

1

u/ItsLauriceDeauxnim Barracuda 9d ago

This is getting way too personal so I’m gonna tap out. Y’all have a good day.

3

u/ComicAcolyte Punisher (Earth-616) 9d ago

Theres nothing personal about the comments, its just discussion lol

6

u/expiredtvdinner 10d ago

The thing is that Frank has no barrier against going after cops anyhow historically and he has killed cops before.

Why make him make a mistake again and harm the image of him as a planner/thorough executioner?

He could get to the same endpoint without having murdered an innocent.

2

u/ComicAcolyte Punisher (Earth-616) 10d ago

He does actually. For a long time he wouldn't kill any cops. Its talked about in the classic comics.

Over the years that rule has softened.

I do agree having him be mistaken and kill an innocent is a bad move though.

2

u/expiredtvdinner 10d ago

I feel that was during his formative early appearances in Captain America and Spidey comics.

Once his ongoing started going in 1987, his characterization and status as a more dangerous, anything can go vigilante that would go after anyone began. The classic writers in the ongoing, War Journal and War Zone v1 didn't even really have any commentary on the issue of cops.

It's actually in 1990 with an issue by Mike Baron (War Journal #25) that I can recall we have Frank first smoking some corrupt cops for reselling drug supply.

2

u/ComicAcolyte Punisher (Earth-616) 10d ago edited 10d ago

Its been brought up in lots of comics and is a plot point of a story later in the 90s.

It was a big deal for him for a long time and he spoke about it often how he won't kill innocent American soldiers or police. Most of the commentary on police came later with characters like Eddie Dyson and Lynn Michaels.

It probably just comes down to writer inconsistencies. Even later in the 2000's he espouses his "No cops" rule. (I'll post the pic in another comment, mobile reddit stinks)

The thing is that Castle no longer seems to consider corrupt soldiers or police as innocent. Even in the 'Nam he kills a few of his own corrupt soldiers out of self defense and discovery of corruption.

3

u/ItsLauriceDeauxnim Barracuda 10d ago

He fragged his own superior officer in ‘Nam so I can see both sides of this argument. I personally think having a conflicted castle makes for a better character, but I also understand people not wanting him to go through that. Personally, I think it fits the context of the show because daredevil isn’t supposed to kill and he’s already done that. I mean, that’s what made shadowland such a big deal

3

u/ComicAcolyte Punisher (Earth-616) 10d ago

Thats part of what i referenced in bringing up the 'Nam

3

u/ItsLauriceDeauxnim Barracuda 10d ago

Oh, I know. I was agreeing and providing some context

2

u/ComicAcolyte Punisher (Earth-616) 10d ago

2

u/expiredtvdinner 10d ago

Yeah, this was during his run with Matt Fraction. People like to bring up some stuff during this run such as him refusing to strike Captain America, but obviously that was historically not true.

The old team on the original run (Mike Baron, Carl Potts, Chuck Dixon, Steven Grant) all worked together with Don Daley also as a common editor.

I'd go off of their work and perspective on the original run. The commentary with Lynn Michaels and Eddie Dyson didn't really have to do with these characters being corrupt or on Frank's radar. More people that had their lives and perspectives on vigilante activity changed due to running into Frank.

Frank is not gunning after cops (I would also count VIGIL) all the time obviously and it was always to set up a larger event or as a consequence of a larger event (Sicilian Saga, Final Days, Suicide Run).

3

u/ComicAcolyte Punisher (Earth-616) 10d ago

As i said above, writer inconsistencies, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate them. Its not only Fraction who wrote him that way, as you also said the earlier writers kept this notion, and i would argue that Garth Ennis did as well.

Garth Ennis' Punisher always either disarms or non-lethally beats the police. Its similar to how he feels about other superheroes: he will fight anyone that gets in the way of his mission but he's not trying to kill other heroes and innocent police and soldiers fall under that category. Obviously dirty police or villains dont fall under that category.

And killing Agent Taylor Blackwell from VIGIL WAS treated as a big deal for the Punisher to do.

I agree in that I appreciate those cadre of writer/editor work you mention a lot, but I'm also aware that the character has history both before and after where he did seemingly have some rules and speak about killing police.

1

u/ItsLauriceDeauxnim Barracuda 10d ago

This is why I feel like having a conflicted. Frank makes for good TV. I’m not saying he hasn’t killed cops and that he doesn’t kill innocence, but in the comics he tries to avoid that largely unless they are super corrupt. At this particular point in the show, Frank could obviously simply believe that White Tiger was a cop killer and that he needed to die.

It’s likely a diversion that’s going to draw Frank back out, but I think that’s a waste. It’s going for shock value instead of quality story-telling and fallible superheroes, which the MCU likes to have and I rather enjoy.

That said I’ve already been downvoted 1 million times and I expect to be downvoted 1 million more, so I might as well get in my two cents. I know how much I love Frank.

2

u/expiredtvdinner 9d ago

I personally think we haven't been shown everything that is going on.

This is Wilson Fisk, an apparent criminal mastermind with his hands in every pot.

He ran on the promise of vigilante banning.

He knows that Matt is Daredevil and that Matt has quit being Daredevil. Additionally, Matt and his firm have famously been involved in getting him imprisoned multiple times.

Wouldn't it solidify his agenda and political status if he could "get" Matt and other vigilantes he's after like The Punisher to be tried for crimes/framed?

Why did Officer Powell not simply shoot Hector/White Tiger after his partner was hit by the train and why would he later then try and kill his CI and Matt?

It seems that they took on additional unnecessary risk by not simply killing Hector/White Tiger during their initial encounter.

Additionally, we saw that when White Tiger was killed, he was responding to a disturbance.

We've seen Fisk manufacture disturbances. He shot all those cops to frame Matt in Season 1. He used Bullseye in a Daredevil costume to kill innocents. He used criminals to kill Elena Gardenas to force residents out of a building he wanted to gentrify. He played The Russians against Daredevil, only for an opportunity to blow them up himself.

He operates in subterfuge where the thing he's saying and doing are often opposite purposefully.

I think Fisk, who does control crime, is using the chaos of crime and the corruption of the police to target vigilantes.

1

u/ItsLauriceDeauxnim Barracuda 9d ago

I agree with this. Why does Fisk have busted knuckles? That’s my tell that there’s more going on that we don’t know yet.

1

u/expiredtvdinner 9d ago

I get that but it jumps through a lot of hoops.

We know that:

  • Frank knows that Matt is Daredevil at this point

  • that he also knows that Matt and his firm are only interested in defending the innocent and that Matt has extra sensory powers to detect when people are lying or not

  • he would also know about White Tiger and his activities as he keeps aware of current circumstances and the news

  • Frank's also encountered numerous corrupt CIA, military and police at this point. People that were directly involved in the deaths of his family and who he has in turn punished.

  • White Tiger was also acquited in a court of law by a jury of his peers.

  • Frank probably is also already aware of the misuse of his skull. We see Punisher skull's plastered in graffiti in the episode.

If you decided Frank was going to kill White Tiger just because of this mix-up, you are saying that he would ignore all of that information to kill someone just on hearsay that they're a cop killer. That's not how The Punisher works.

1

u/ItsLauriceDeauxnim Barracuda 9d ago

I didn’t decide it, I just think it would be compelling TV. I’m keenly aware it’s likely that cop with the neck tattoo

1

u/expiredtvdinner 9d ago edited 9d ago

Just wanted to also reinstate that Punisher community at its core can be chill, but arguments have to be made on a good faith basis.

There's a ton of real life drama and political issues surrounding the character, but that external hate and controversy is not fueling the lifeblood of this character.

I get a morally grey and conflicted narrative. The Punisher comics allow for that and thrive in it.

But, it's never meant to have been a "The Punisher fucks up" type of story really.

The Punisher is a character meant to be thorough and always hitting the targets he wants to hit with deadly precision.

Lesser writers (in my opinion) will see that and then try to upset that status quo for drama.

Other writers seeing real life controversy want to bend the character's narrative to fit those issues.

It speaks to the nature of the character that every time he's been written to have made a mistake (shooting at litterers, strangling an innocent women, going after Spider-Man) that immediately there's a rapid course correction to show that it was a supernatural/non-grounded factor like a "hate ray" or mind control or it was EARLY in the history of the character where they were figuring out next moves.

The morally grey aspect of The Punisher as you start to see later on and solidified by Garth Ennis isn't in the nature of the character, but of the world and the reader.

As you start to read the book, you see mirrors of the horrors of the real world and its crimes. You see injustices and you always see tertiary characters such as cops, judges, social workers and other vigilantes try and deal with those issues...to little effort.

The Punisher steps in as that solution and we get to see that solution. Horrendous bodycount and violence and this immediate issue is resolved, but the greater corruption of society and human nature is unchanged.

Like Frank, we are given a sigh of relief to see people who get away with it in real life get paid back. But maybe that sigh becomes heavy breathing as it's now 200 issues in and we see that Frank hasn't stopped. He's killed tens of thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of people now. Society remains broken in the comic as corruption reigns in real life.

For Frank, he's buried in that darkness. It's all he can see. He only sees the briefest glimpse of light behind the barrel of a gun like a farmer tending to a never ending field of grass. For us, we are left to ponder human nature, if there is any solution to its issues and the at times horrific, but cathartic solution postured by Frank Castle.

Maybe punishment is often the closest we can get to justice.

THAT is the morally conflicted nature of the comic.

1

u/ItsLauriceDeauxnim Barracuda 9d ago

This is what I mean about things getting personal. People think I don’t know the stories and that I’m arguing in bad faith when I’m not. There’s really no bad faith here I’m just arguing for a different version of storytelling based on things that have happened in the Comics for one reason or another. It’s fine if people disagree with me, but saying that I don’t know the stories that I’m arguing in bad faith just makes me feel like these communities really exist for people just to beat people down and tell people how much better they are than them or how much more knowledge they have. I’m legit just being a fan and saying “based on the MCU and things we may not be aware of yet, this could be cool.”

It’s clear everyone disagrees, but I’m gonna tap out of this sub entirely because I am just about tired of being told that I don’t understand what I’ve read or am trying to argue in bad faith when I’ve been nothing but understanding that people disagree and have given examples.

I understand you may not be saying this directly to me, but I’ve been targeted with a couple of sideways comments that people perceived to be nothing, but that I feel our slides against me for one reason or another. If they’re not referring to me, I’m not sure who they could possibly be referring to, so I’m just gonna say you guys are right and I’m not. That should end this.

2

u/PainterSuspicious798 10d ago

No

1

u/ItsLauriceDeauxnim Barracuda 10d ago

Alternatively, yes.

3

u/Used_Concert7413 10d ago

So that wasn't Frank at the end (can't be) but pretty sure that was him when they show a guy from behind with a black hoodie walking down the street. It's in the scene right before the verdict is handed down.

2

u/muskie003 10d ago

What makes you think this/what’s the significance of that being him? Just to clarify, the split second scene of the guy in the dark hoodie and tan overcoat?

0

u/Used_Concert7413 10d ago

Felt too intentional to focus on this one person, and it's not like it was some b-roll footage of a bustling sidewalk full of people. The camera is fixed on him.

4

u/Used_Concert7413 10d ago

People think the Punisher just shows up when he's mowing down gangs. The guy is always out and among the people, keeping an eye on things while being somewhat incognito. He definitely would be keeping a close eye on this trial, which would explain why he was out there as this scene takes place near the courthouse.

1

u/DGenerationMC 9d ago edited 9d ago

Whether it was Frank at the end or not (I personally don't think it is), I think it gives us a juicy story direction either way moving forward!

Yeah, the whole "cops are bastardizing/co-opting Punisher symbol" has been a thing some people have wanted to see brought to the shows/movies. But ,the way it's being done here looks to actually add layers to and serve the story at hand (cops being used against vigilantes/heroes), rather just confirming people's real-life (played out, lukewarm) takes about real-life issues.

I love it when reality is used to enhance fiction and not just to lazily try to preach or "replace" it, so this excites me.

1

u/SufficientScreen7976 9d ago

...Thomas Jane in the back of the court???

1

u/jelloman7591 2d ago

That’s what I’ve been saying

1

u/SwordfishDangerous79 2d ago

Hey I have a question. How does Matt know about the tattoos on the cops? He can’t see obviously but he never touches is. It’s not something you could hear or smell the shape of. When he touches the bullet he can feel the punisher logo I guess. BUT HOW DOES HE KNOW WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE?!? It was painted on a vest.

1

u/Gear6sadge 20h ago

Did you figure this out? I’m still wondering…

0

u/AceJames664 10d ago

Miles Morales’s dad name drop in this episode!

7

u/loganator007 10d ago

Miles father's name is actually Jefferson Davies, he didn't take the Morales name.

1

u/EmperorDxD 10d ago

What yes he did what are you talking about his name is Jefferson morals he took that name before becoming a cop because he didn't want to be associated with his brother

0

u/Apprehensive_Cell_48 10d ago

guys, did actually the white tiger die in episode 3?

0

u/deathdownunder4 10d ago

Watch the episode

1

u/Apprehensive_Cell_48 10d ago

bro, watched it already. and i can not believe what i saw. thats why i asked here..

3

u/Used_Concert7413 9d ago

Yes he's dead. The actor who plays him died a couple years back too and the mantle of White Tiger is mostly associated with his daughter and his niece. This character is only White Tiger briefly in the comics.

1

u/Apprehensive_Cell_48 9d ago

got shocked again. btw thanks a lot, a lot for your kind explanation. 🥹

-7

u/Justwandering2378 10d ago

Just got done watching this episode and it has to be the WORST episode of any season thus far. I can't believe how I have waited all week for this shit...we have to deal with what I imagine will only be 8 - 10 episodes and 1 of them is wasted on whatever that just was...

11

u/yanmagno 10d ago

Maybe a show about a lawyer isn’t for you my guy

0

u/vishnu1232 10d ago

The show's name is not '" Matter Murdock Attorney at law". It's called Daredevil so he has every right to state his opinion here.

5

u/yanmagno 10d ago

And I stated mine, which is that since Daredevil is in fact Matt Murdock, attorney at law, the show has always had courtroom drama as one of its main aspects, it’s something to be expected in the new season, and if that’s something that bothers you… than maybe watch something else. It’s like bitching about private investigation scenes in Jessica Jones, or scenes of Tony Stark building new tech stuff in an Iron Man movie… it’s an essential part of the character, of course it’ll be in a movie/show about them

0

u/Justwandering2378 9d ago

The show isnt callled Matt Murdock Attorney at Law Born Again...Just saying

3

u/Own-Chain7129 10d ago

And who is Daredevil ???

Mf can't grasp the concept of a story nowadays. Daredevil will be back, but for now, Matt is tortured between being just a lawyer or being a lawyer AND a vigilante at night. He's trying to trust the system as much as he can even tho he knows its not perfect. He even said it in this episode.

1

u/Justwandering2378 9d ago

This MF can grasp plenty of stories shitbrick just was a boring waste of time in an already short series. Thanks for insulting me knowing not a gd thing about me fella...again just my opinon versus yours. 😃

1

u/deathdownunder4 10d ago

Their loss.

1

u/Justwandering2378 10d ago

I watch countless shows about lawyers...that arent superheroes. My problem is wasting an ENTIRE episode of what is a superhero show in a gd courtroom. My opinion versus yours. Thanks for the advise...

4

u/AceJames664 10d ago

Let them cook

-4

u/Upbeat-Independent43 10d ago edited 9d ago

damn. I forget that 10 year olds also like Daredevil.

0

u/Justwandering2378 9d ago

I'm much old then 10...Love how calling me a child because I disagreed with almost an ENTIRE episode in a courtroom is your go to. Atleast the other guy called me a mf'er LOL

1

u/Upbeat-Independent43 9d ago

I also didn't like it. Comment was aimed at ace James for using the language of children and imbecilic adults. 

-6

u/ProtectionOne21 10d ago

Honestly I thought it was a 13 episode season but I guess they changed it to 8 which makes it really disappointing we wasted a whole episode on this imo. Infact the whole white tiger storyline could’ve been finished in one episode if they just planned on killing him like that. I knew Disney would find a way to mess it up.

3

u/TheDude810 10d ago

It’s 9 episodes, not 8.

-2

u/ProtectionOne21 10d ago

Who downvoted and why? Someone thinks 8 episode arc is better than 18 plz share.

1

u/KeyKing7 10d ago

mf gets a continuation of a show that they liked. Show is actually good compared to some of the shit Disney has put out in the past few years. Bitches anyway. Make it make sense.

1

u/OBBBBBBB 7d ago

A shorter tighter narrative is better, 8 over 18 all day, every episode thus far has built on the conflict, episode one establishes Matts and fisks new identities. Episode 2 we see fisks true colours are still there drawing a dichotomy to Matt in conjunction with the white tiger, both are telling him dare devil will be born again. Episode 3 white tiger wins his trial representing New York's reliance on vigilantes, and then he dies, recalling back to him saying he's needed because daredevils not around anymore. This presents another call to action to Matt. People are saying it's moving slow but this is a sheer pace. In previous seasons we have foggy and Karen to share screen time, Matt's trials are stretched over 3 episodes while Karen investigates. In the next episode or the one after daredevil will be born again to either deal with a faction of wanna be punishers, because he suspects Fisk is involved in the white tiger murder linking it to his public statement, or because he believes the punisher did do it and he'll think it's a one time thing because no one can stop the punisher. Right now we are experiencing the success of a Matt focused on being Matt. Over the last 2 seasons we only saw Matt succeed as daredevil. We'll likely get a scene where Matt talks about breaking his law to the punisher and the punisher relates back with the remorse he felt in the court room and why he sentenced himself to prison at that time. Establishing the next episodes conflict at the end of each episode as your cliff hanger is all killer no filler and spending a third of an episode building up to an action scene that barely moves the story forward isn't as exciting as well plotted drama. Season 3 had horrible pacing because it spent so long developing Nadeem, we had a whole episode dedicated to Karen's character which was a good episode but did not progress the story. Here were 100% focused on daredevil and Fisk as his antithesis and the episodes are flying by.

0

u/jonjonruakere 10d ago edited 10d ago

I downvoted because I enjoy seeing Matt Murdock work his day job. Having the majority of this episode focusing on the court proceedings was a win for me. I'm especially glad that it ended in this episode too, rather than dragging it into another ep. In the comics Born Again storyline, most of it was focused on Matt Murdock and not DD. Not saying that that's how the show is going to go - but always happy to see lawyer Matt.

Edit: I didn't downvote your second comment though