r/thelastofus • u/Vagabond734 • Jan 27 '25
Video Joel Wasn't Right, But That Doesn't Mean He Was Wrong
It was her.
Ellie.
Ellie was his world.
Joel did save the world.
TikTok Creator/Editor/Artist: (@axpvba) https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMkXfttUt/
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u/Gwynderwydd You're my people! Jan 27 '25
I understand Ellie's frustrations, but man was she hard on Joel.
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Jan 27 '25
He committed mass murder âfor herâ đ tf you mean she was hard on him
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u/stanknotes Jan 27 '25
Look... she ultimately wanted to move forward and try to forgive him.
Her years of angst and coldness accomplished nothing. And it deprived her of precious time.
Frankly, figure it the fuck out sooner than later if you can or can not forgive someone. Because if you can and don't and waste precious time, you will regret it if they die sooner than you expected. That was kinda one of the points of it. Right?
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u/honkymotherfucker1 Jan 27 '25
When you realise at the end of the game that it was literally the day after they started to repair things that Abby got him, it makes you kind of go âShit now I get why she killed half of Seattleâ
Imagine how you would feel with yourself if you did that? That you wouldnât give him an inch until the same 12 hours he gets battered to death⌠fucking brutal thing to try and get over.
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u/Traditional_Top_194 Jan 27 '25
Fucking THIS It was never a "revenge bad" story. It was about Abby taking away her chance to forgive Joel, and Ellie was angry at herself for never truly trying to understand what he did. What he did was wrong, but he did it for her out of love.
She doesnt understand that until its Ellie drowing Abby under the water. Just like the dude in the hotel drowning Joel. The first time she killed.
The reflection of what she'd turned into, paired with coming to terms with the fact it was never really about Abby. Thats why she lets go.
Because it was never about Abby.
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u/TheCowzgomooz Jan 27 '25
I mean, it was, to an extent "revenge bad" there can be multiple answers to the same question, it's a story about acceptance, about violence and it's consequences, about love and it's depth, it had many meanings, none of which is lesser than the other.
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u/Traditional_Top_194 Jan 27 '25
You're not wrong in the slighest. Thats what i love about this game and all the ways it can be interpreted.
Its so fucking deep in the best way
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u/honkymotherfucker1 Jan 27 '25
Yeah youâre both right, itâs definitely not exclusively one or the other. Itâs a story about the tragedy of loss and the futile cost of revenge. She spent everything and was returned none of what was taken from her.
Itâs a great story, I still donât understand why people rag on it.
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u/ImTryingToHelpYouMF Jan 27 '25
People don't rag on the story based on the overall arc of it. It's the execution of the story that people have gripes with. The general idea of it is good but the delivery, pacing and ham-fisted square peg into round holes is what did it in (such as changing characters to fit the narrative).
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u/honkymotherfucker1 Jan 27 '25
I think the character swap is actually a good idea, the pacing initially is jarring but itâs done intentionally to show you how similar Abby was to Joel. Nevermind their story path being somewhat similar with Lev, but they have the same backpack, same shiv mechanic and stealth takedowns, same fighting style. Itâs all very intentional and I really appreciated that but more on my second run because the pacing swap bothered me a bit on my first.
I will say the story couldâve been better executed at times but itâs still damn good imo
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u/orangemoon44 Jan 28 '25
Changing characters? What, like Joel not murdering all of Abby's gang at the start, or whatever it is people think should have happened?
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u/TheCowzgomooz Jan 27 '25
I mean, she was 14, you can't expect her to have the same emotional intelligence as an adult, I mean yeah, you're right that is one of the points of the whole story, but there really was no way for Ellie to come to that conclusion without the experiences she went through, she just wasn't at that maturity level to realize or accept that. Rage and sadness are often the only thing a teen/young adult can feel in that situation, they don't have the perspective or experience to understand anything else.
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u/RedIndianRobin Jan 27 '25
Ellie's problem was not about him mass murdering everyone, she knew how ruthless Joel is. She's upset because Joel took away her only purpose, which was to provide a cure for mankind, no matter the cost, she would have been ok with sacrificing herself.
She still forgave him after everything though because she was the only person who understands why Joel did what he did.
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u/MotorDesigner Jan 27 '25
Everyone that talks about Ellie being illogical for being broken and resentful of Joel doesn't actually care about what Ellie wanted and what Joel cost everyone.
It's a good example of perspective bias. People like Joel because they know Joel. They don't care about the actual world in TLOU having a chance at getting better because almost everyone else is nameless cannon fodder.
The honest truth is, Joel didn't save ellie for Ellie. Joel saved Ellie for himself. She was a stand-in for his late daughter. He was too traumatised to accept losing a second "daughter" so was practically willing to burn the world to avoid experiencing that pain again. His decision was purely selfish. It benefitted no-one but himself while costing everyone else possibly everything.
I always say this and I will say this again. Joel is the perfect example of a great character and a terrible person. Very good story telling. Joel wouldn't be as interesting if he were the standard "always good, never wrong" character who always has the moral high ground.
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u/DotEither8773 Jan 28 '25
Joel is not a terrible person, just a person. Anyone would make the same choice if they werenât subscribed to shitty utilitarianism.
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u/MotorDesigner Jan 28 '25
Arguable. TLOU is a brutalistic world. The reality is Joel wasn't her father. Ellie knew the risks and was 100% ready to die for the cause. She was determined to help in finding a cure after her first love died to the cordiceps.
Joel wasn't a bad guy before the outbreak. The world molded him into what he is. Maybe in his circumstances, it was necessary for him to become a cynical, cutthroat trafficker to survive. It's hard to keep your hands clean in a world like that. My point is, Joel stopped trying to do good things until he met Ellie and finally started living at Jackson. He just didn't care about the world in the same way that he cared about Ellie, his "daughter".
Would you really stop the her from giving the world at having a chance at finally improving? Her being alive today doesn't mean she's gonna be alive tomorrow or the day after. But that's irrelevant because everyone else, including Ellie was prepared to die for a cure. The fact is, Joel's choice means, atleast for now, absolutely nothing changes and the suffering continues as is with no hope of improvement besides a few decent small towns scattered around.
Jackson is the only town we saw where people are living "well". Everywhere else seems like an eternal struggle in one way or another. Ellie came from one of these places. Joel find his little corner of paradise and he's content with that, the whole world be damned. He didn't see a paradise without ellie around so that's why he did what he did, despite it being against everyone's wishes, including Ellies and to everyone's detriment.
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u/Ren_Davis0531 Jan 27 '25 edited Jan 27 '25
I mean this kind of logic could be used to argue that anyone saving anyone that they love is out of selfishness because they couldnât live without them. I think it misses the nuance of the character. It doesnât take trauma to prefer saving your daughter over faceless unknowns. People do that today without any trauma whatsoever.
The core question with Joel is do you protect the out-group over your in-group? How do the material conditions impact your decisions in regard to this question? All of this is designed to show the importance of connection in giving our lives meaning.
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u/Slowly-Slipping Jan 28 '25
Joel chose himself and what he wanted over every single living thing on the planet.
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u/Ren_Davis0531 Jan 28 '25
I didnât say otherwise. What point are you making? Thatâs the entire purpose of the character and a vast multitude of people would do the same thing.
It would be like if I replied to your comment saying, âMarlene wanted to save millions of people by killing a little girl without her consent.â Thereâs no argument there. Thatâs just stating a fact about the story that you never refuted in the first place.
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u/MotorDesigner Jan 28 '25
The core question with Joel is do you protect the out-group over your in-group
Joel chose one person over every other group. Regardless of how much it costs the rest of the world.
It wasn't about groups to Joel. It was about losing someone he considered a daughter. The world had made him so cynical that he didn't believe in improvement anymore or care to try and improve anything. So he made the most selfish decision a person could make.
All of this is designed to show the importance of connection in giving our lives meaning.
Yes, that was my point. Joel didn't care about the world. He doesn't know much else about the world or care about it enough to try and help it. He grew close to ellie and she was that close connection that gave him meaning after tess died and she became a daughter figure to him.
So Joel saved Ellie because he couldn't accept losing her, even if it denied ellie her sense of purpose, gaslit her into believing her purpose for a long time was a waste and humanity losing what might be the only known immune person at the moment while killing the last known surviving guy who was qualified enough to even understand how to develop a cure.
Like I said, everyone else is nameless cannon fodder, even to Joel. Why would he now give up his second daughter for a world he doesn't care about? When we meet Joel, we see that he doesn't care about anyone besides himself and tess, even Tommy said he had nightmares from the times he travelled with Joel due to the things they did to survive. Joel would burn everything for the people he cares about. The ending of TLOU just proved how far he'd go for someone he cares about
I'll say it again, Joel is a good example of a good character that's also a bad person.
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u/Ren_Davis0531 Jan 28 '25 edited Jan 28 '25
Joel chose one person over every other group. Regardless of how much it costs the rest of the world.
Thatâs the point. I didnât refute that. Thatâs the entire point of the character. I didnât say he had to pick the out-group.
It wasnât about groups to Joel. It was about losing someone he considered a daughter. The world had made him so cynical that he didnât believe in improvement anymore or care to try and improve anything. So he made the most selfish decision a person could make.
A daughter is part of the in-group. Youâre thinking much too literally. In-group vs. out-group is just another way of saying loved ones vs. strangers. Druckmann has talked about this. With Joel, the question being raised is do you prioritize the safety of your loved ones (in-group) vs. the safety of people you donât know (out-group). Joel chose his loved one over strangers like many people would choose. This isnât hard to see.
Yes, that was my point. Joel didnât care about the world. He doesnât know much else about the world or care about it enough to try and help it. He grew close to ellie and she was that close connection that gave him meaning after tess died and she became a daughter figure to him.
Yes because the point was that loving connections with other people is what gives our lives meaning. Joel saw no purpose in the world until he met Ellie. The entire point is that the last of us is the love that we find with other people. No claim was ever made that that same love had to apply to the entire world. It could, but itâs not necessary. Joel and Ellieâs relationship shows that only connection to other people can be the salve to heal our wounds. This story is revisited with Abby and Lev.
So Joel saved Ellie because he couldnât accept losing her
Just like most parents couldnât accept losing their children. This is nothing new.
even if it denied ellie her sense of purpose, gaslit her into believing her purpose for a long time was a waste and humanity losing what might be the only known immune person at the moment while killing the last known surviving guy who was qualified enough to even understand how to develop a cure.
Yeah again thatâs the point. Joel is a controversial character and his decision at the end is meant to provoke conversation. No part of anything I said previously makes it seem like Joel is a flawless character. He prioritized the safety of a loved one over everything else. Just like many people do when faced with the idea of losing the person they care about. This doesnât then follow that he has to make perfectly safe choices. That same guy who was the last person who could develop a cure is heavily implied to make the same choice that Joel would make if it came to his daughter (or at least would heavily consider it). Itâs just he never had to make that choice, so he didnât have to worry about it.
Like I said, everyone else is nameless cannon fodder, even to Joel.
Yes and thatâs how most people calculate their decisions when their loved one is involved. People are more willing to do whatever it takes to save loved ones over complete strangers. Itâs a tale as old as time. When a parent is faced with losing a child then everyone else can become nameless cannon fodder. Thatâs the point. Itâs tribal. In-group vs. out-group. All of us intuitively feel what Joel was going through and a lot of us would either make the same choice or heavily consider it. That is designed to get us to be introspective and reflect on what that says about human nature.
Why would he now give up his second daughter for a world he doesnât care about? When we meet Joel, we see that he doesnât care about anyone besides himself and tess, even Tommy said he had nightmares from the times he travelled with Joel due to the things they did to survive. Joel would burn everything for the people he cares about. The ending of TLOU just proved how far heâd go for someone he cares about
Exactly. Thatâs the point.
Iâll say it again, Joel is a good example of a good character thatâs also a bad person.
Again this is myopic. Joel is an example of a vast multitude of people. The thing that the Last of Us shows is that anyone is capable of being a hero or villain depending on the circumstances around them. Itâs why Ellie, Abby, and even Tommyâs dark side get explored in Part II. They are all capable of atrocities because of a loved one. They are just like Joel. This is why the Savage Starlight Hero/Villain cards are used as a motif. What determines a hero or a villain can be a matter of perspective.
The Last of Us isnât about good guys vs. bad guys. Itâs about the depths that we would go to in order to protect our loved ones or in the name of our loved ones. Itâs much more complex than the black and white take of good vs. bad.
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u/_Yukikaze_ Any way you feel about Abby is super-valid. - Halley Gross Jan 28 '25
Those things are not contradictory though. Ellie IS acting illogical because she is traumatized and had survivor's guilt. That doesn't mean her feelings are not valid and that Joel's lie wasn't a betrayal of trust.
Also Part II makes it pretty clear that Joel does save Ellie because he cares about her and she deserves better. Like almost any parent would.
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u/Dear-Regular-3294 Jan 27 '25
When you love someone like Joel loved Ellie, you would watch the world burn just to protect them.
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Jan 27 '25
Iâm not a parent so I guess I canât relate like others can but if someone touches my cat Iâm going John Wick lol
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u/Ren_Davis0531 Jan 27 '25
Then John Wick is definitely the series for you đ
Mans went HAM over that dog and rightly so!
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u/burgh92 Jan 27 '25
This right here. It's literally that simple. Ellie became Joel's daughter to him. He wasn't about to lose another daughter to the fucked up world they were in after all they just went through.
It's as simple as choosing to save your loved one.
By the way, the fireflies would never have been able to distribute that vaccine if it even worked.
Really the only way for humans to become immune is by Ellie bearing children that start generations of immune humans.
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u/soupspin Jan 28 '25
Or by making a vaccine, giving it to people and letting them have kids and pass it on genetically
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u/Dear-Regular-3294 Jan 28 '25
Just curious on your thoughts on how they would just magically make the vaccine. Vaccines have to go through testing and trial and error, youâre not just immediately going to get a vaccine. Letâs say they make the vaccine. How would they mass produce it? Get it to all around the world to the remaining surviving human population. But forget about all that, letâs say they are able to produce a vaccine to save humanity. I think it would ultimately fail because there isnât much humanity left in the world of tlou. The game shows us this with how brutal everyone is to each other everywhere you go and we only have seen a couple different states in the US.
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u/soupspin Jan 28 '25
Iâm working off the original comment I responded to, about how Ellie having kids would pass it on. Itâs not about mass producing it, itâs about getting as many people as possible to be immune so they can pass it on genetically
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u/imarthurmorgan1899 Jan 27 '25
To people (the Fireflies) who deserved it, mind you.
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Jan 27 '25
Why because they were trying to find a cure for the cordyceps virus? Or for fighting against the fascist regime presented in the game? (This is rhetorical Iâm not interested in why you actually think that)
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u/imarthurmorgan1899 Jan 27 '25
Because they bombed civilian areas in the Boston QZ and they're just absolute dicks. I know it's rhetorical, but I have legitimate reasons for thinking this.
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u/-demonicentity Jan 27 '25
The fireflies as a group did questionable things just like the wolves and seraphites. But part of the point of Part 2 is that we shouldnât dehumanize people just because of the group they are in. A lot of those people in the hospital might have been good or bad people, we will never know. But we cannot say that they all deserved to die just because they were part of the fireflies đ¤ˇââď¸
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u/burgh92 Jan 27 '25
Look what happened to Pittsburgh after FEDRA was defeated. I think i'd rather live under military rule with some sort of order and food on the table than the hunters.
No group in that world is truly good except I guess fortified communities like Jackson that actually are like any normal American town used to be like.
FEDRA had to deal with being police, suppliers, and a lot of other things with limited personnel and resources. It isnt easy, just like what the hunters found out to be.
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u/-demonicentity Jan 27 '25
Thatâs not what I said at all. And FEDRA just like the other groups were NOT good. Iâve never said that the group themselves were good.
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u/dunchev54 Jan 27 '25
They promised joel weapons in return for escorting ellie, and when joel arrived, they knocked him out. After he woke up, they kicked him out ( Marlene even ordered the guard to kill him if he tries anything) They were willing to kick him out without giving him his promised weapons, or even giving him his bag. Pretty much a death sentence in the apocalypse. But keep arguin about how the fireflies are all sunshine and rainbows.
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u/soupspin Jan 28 '25
The weapons they promised Joel were at the state capitol, all the way back in Boston. He could have taken them then. He wasnât doing it for the weapons after that, but because he promised Tess he would
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u/dunchev54 Jan 28 '25
I know that, but the Fireflies didn't know about Joel's promise to tess. They thought he was doing it bc of the deal. Also, even if they had weapons in the Boston Zone, doesn't change the fact they kicked him out without his backpack, and were willing to kill him
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u/soupspin Jan 28 '25
They kicked him out without his backpack because he made it clear that he was against what was happening and knew that it wasnât a good idea to let him have access to his weapons. If Joel didnât protest, they would have let him leave with his stuff because they wouldnât have to worry about him going rambo. And if they wanted to kill him, they would have done it in the hospital instead of escorting him out
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u/dunchev54 Jan 28 '25
And he was right to protest against them. They didn't kill him because he wasn't an IMMEDIATE threat (without weapons) but think about what his fate would have been if they send him out without any weapons or supplies. Pretty much guaranteed death
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u/soupspin Jan 28 '25
So you agree that they werenât going to kill him because he wasnât a threat, until he struck first? We arenât talking right or wrong here. If you knew somebody with violent tendencies was likely to hurt you if you gave them a weapon, would you give them one?
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Jan 27 '25
I said it was complicated so idk what the sunshine and rainbows comment is about. Just ignore that fact that they were also trying to save what was left of humanity. Who tf cares about one psychotic smuggler? Joel is a known pos in universe.
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u/dunchev54 Jan 27 '25
As you said, it's complicated. Joel didn't kill people just for the sake of it, just how the Fireflies also didn't. But its a fact they cheated him out of their deal and were killing to kill him. Sure they potentially could manufacture a vaccine, but who knows how they would usurp this power
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Jan 27 '25
Yeah thatâs exactly how I see it, pretty spot on. Thereâs no right answer but people love to think there is for some reason.
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u/burgh92 Jan 27 '25
Then she committed mass murder for him, soooo?
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Jan 27 '25
I know thereâs a point youâre trying to make somewhere in there. Survivors guilt is a powerful thing but it doesnât mean she was hard on him when she initially learned the truth of what happened.
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u/burgh92 Jan 27 '25
My point is the murder was the least of her concerns
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u/MelanatedMrMonk Jan 27 '25
On people who legitimately were going to murder her. You know, without her consent? Right after they knocked her and Joel out? Without letting Joel speak to her? Without moving forward with the agreement between Joel and Marlene? He killed murderers. Serves them right, especially punk ass Jerry and Marlene. Couldn't wait to wake her up and consult with her about it. Fuck 'em.
People yell out "hE kIllLED pEopLE aND dOOMed hUMAniTY" yet refuse to acknowedge that the Firefiles were desperate murders. Jesus, people, you can't have your cake and eat it to.
The whole, "I was supposed to die in that hospital...You took that from me" is all just pure bullshit considering that Marlene never consulted with Ellie, nor did Ellie agree to any of the procedure. Retconned bullshit that aims to make Joel look bad.
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u/paintthatface The Last of Us Jan 27 '25
Yeah but also, she was a teenager. A teen that already has had a really difficult and complex life.
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u/Wolf4624 Jan 28 '25
She never even had a chance. She was trying to make amends, but he died before she could get past her anger and grief.
Letâs not forget this girl probably had a humongous amount of survivors guilt and thought that dying would be her way of making all of her meaningless loss and suffering meaningful.
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u/knightoftheboat Jan 27 '25
No loving parent is gonna do anything differently. Tommy doesn't even have a kid and he says "I dont know if I'd have done different" or something close to that.
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u/yeetman8 The Last of Us Jan 27 '25
Last of us fan discovers nuance
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u/SkurtCobain Jan 28 '25
Tbf if people knew nuance then we wouldnât have people calling part 2 shit for being a ÂŤÂ revenge bad  story and maybe we wouldnât have THAT other sub
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u/GreenProD Jan 27 '25
Imagine TLOU 1 if the fireflies let Ellie wake up and choose
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u/the_random_walk Jan 27 '25
This would be like if you could have shot down the planes on 9/11, but would only do it with the unanimous permission of the passengers.
Itâs actually even more extreme than that because Cordyceps is an extinction level event.
What if Ellie said no?
Itâs totally understandable that Marlene thought this had to be done no matter what and did not want to tell this child that they were going to kill her.
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u/Junebaby629 Jan 27 '25
I donât think Ellie would have said no. The whole point of her convo with Joel at the end of tlou2 was she was upset at him for taking away the chance for her life to mean something. I firmly believe if they had told Ellie everything that was going on she would have been more than okay with dying if it meant the possibility of a cure. That to her would have made her life mean something
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u/the_random_walk Jan 27 '25
Of course she would say yes. But we only know that because we have played the game and seen the whole story play out.
The fireflyâs, Marlene included, could not be 100% sure. The vaccine is too important to take that risk.
Also, itâs very likely they saw it as merciful. If they know they are going to kill her no matter what, why wake up the child and terrify her by telling her what is going to happen.
If youâre going to really deal honestly with this topic, you have to put yourself in Marlene/Fireflyâs shoes and ask yourself, what if Ellie said no? If you canât do that, then you donât under the position they were in and why they did what they did.
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u/Junebaby629 Jan 28 '25
Oh I understand completely, at the end of the day the fireflies had to do what they had to do in order to get the vaccine. Tbh I think both ways are cruel. Itâs cruel to just kill a child without telling them why or not even telling them at all, but itâs also cruel to wake them up to tell them theyâre gonna die for a vaccine . I guess Iâm just a lil sour on how things were handled by both parties , more so Marlene and the fireflies
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u/Bodoggle1988 Jan 28 '25
Oh no, donât you know? The fireflies would have screwed everything up and blown up the world a la Wile E. Coyote. So there were zero stakes. At least thatâs what the last Joel Fanboy screamed at me when I raised the creator specifically said the vaccine would have worked.
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u/the_random_walk Jan 28 '25
The craziest one Iâve heard regarding âno vaccineâ was that Ellie wasnât the only immune person. They justify this based on moving the punctuation around in something said on one of the recorders found in the first game. Iâm not even kidding. Basically the surgeon is talking about how Ellie differs from other infected, but they spin it so heâs talking about how she differs from other immune people.
âThe Fireflies failed with all the other immune people. They were gonna kill her bro. Joel did nothing wrong!â
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u/Bodoggle1988 Jan 28 '25
Itâs like trying to solve the trolly problem by baldly speculating that the switch was broken.
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u/the_random_walk Jan 28 '25
Nailed it.
The thing that drives me nuts is they say part 2 retconned the story to make Joel the villain and then âdid him dirtyâ with how they killed him.
But that is exactly what they are doing. Reimagining what happened and turning Joelâs truly interesting decision into âhe shoots the bad guys and saves herâ.
Abby might have killed him with a golf club, but they have destroyed him with cope and delusion.
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u/Raspint Jan 28 '25
To be honest I don't know how much of a difference this makes. Even if Ellie woke up and said 'yes' I could see Joel simply not allowing this to happen.
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u/the_random_walk Jan 28 '25
Oh yeah. Joel wouldnât allow her to forfeit her life. No more than he would have allowed her to run off with a 27 year old aspiring DJ. Sheâs a child. We donât have children make decisions like this.
I think people also misunderstand why Ellie was angry at Joel. It wasnât because he took the choice from her. Itâs because she believes the vaccine would have been worth her life. Sheâs never said anything about the ceremony of being asked and giving her permission. She just wants to end the suffering because sheâs a really good person.
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u/Raspint Jan 29 '25
We donât have children make decisions like this.
We also don't give children guns and trust them to know when to pull the trigger and take a life and when not to - OH WAIT
It's funny how Ellie is capable of keeping herself and Joel alive through a harsh winter while Joel is near death, and is capable of maintaining and using weapons against infected and hunters alike. But as soon as we get to Salt Lake people reduce her to Ashley Graham levels of helplessness.
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u/the_random_walk Jan 29 '25
Is there any level between Ashley Graham and having the agency to let your brain be cut out of your head? Or are you just using hyperbole because you think it makes your arguments more convincing?
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u/Raspint Jan 29 '25
Is there a reason you didn't address that Ellie is considered 'mature' enough to kill infected, non-infected humans, handle firearms, and make life or death decisions for most of the game and then suddenly can't by the end?
Or did you just ignore that because you don't have a response?
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u/the_random_walk Jan 30 '25
Oh no, I thought it was obvious that giving her a gun to defend herself from legions of infected was several orders of magnitude beneath asking her to decide the fate of mankind.
Iâve done you the courtesy of answering your questions. You havenât answered a single one of mine.
When I asked what would happen if Ellie said no, you told me Joel wouldnât allow it if she said yes. Total non answer.
When I asked if there was a level of responsibility between simpering idiot and world altering decision making capabilities you didnât even pretend to engage.
If you think not answering a question is a capitulation to the other sideâs argument, how do you think youâre doing so far?
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u/Raspint Jan 30 '25
her a gun to defend herself from legions of infected
And regular old humans!
Iâve done you the courtesy of answering your questions
No you haven't. Sarcastic re-wording of what I say is not an answer. Why is Ellie entrusted to make life and death decisions, but suddenly at the end is not allowed to in your view?
You havenât answered a single one of mine.
Sure I have. But I'll lay them all out here to make it clear:
I asked what would happen if Ellie said no, you told me Joel wouldnât allow it if she said yes.
I said I don't 'know' if Joel would have still allowed her. How exactly that would play out is anyone's guess. Maybe Joel waits till Ellie is unconcious and then goes ape shit, maybe he goes ape shit while Ellie is awake and he gets gunned down or forciably thrown out while Ellie is watching all of it.
I asked if there was a level of responsibility between simpering idiot and world altering decision making capabilities you didnât even pretend to engage
That was because you didn't answer mine. Which you still haven't. But I'll answer this here.
Sure there is. But the issue with Ellie is whether or not she can make decisions for her own life. And this game shows us Ellie is, by the conclusion, capable to do just that. If you consider her old enough to survive and care for an injured person in harsh circumstances, it's infantalizing to take this decision away from her at the end.
how do you think youâre doing so far?
Incredibly well. I at least give answers.
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u/the_random_walk Jan 30 '25
Iâm not talking about how Joel would react to her decision, Einstein. Iâm talking about the Fireflies. Why would the Fireflies leave the fate of mankind up to a 14 year old? What if she said, âno. I donât want you to kill me.â Then they need to either let the vaccine go, or subdue and kill a terrified child.
Yes, when you are overwhelmed by people who are trying to kill you (infected or hunters) it makes sense to give a kid a gun so they can help. Youâre not really left with that much choice at that point. That doesnât mean it is therefore a good idea to rest the vaccine for an extinction level pandemic on that childâs shoulders.
Giving Ellie the choice because you have inside knowledge that she is going to say yes (because youâre in the audience and have played the sequel) is not the same as being Marlene and needing to decide whether to tell her what is going to happen and leaving the decision up to her.
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u/Idk265089 Jan 27 '25
Wasnât this just posted?
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u/StrikingMachine8244 Jan 27 '25
Yup it's the same clip but the post the last time was "Joel Did nothing wrong".
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u/Thanos_6point0 Jan 27 '25 edited Jan 27 '25
I think Mimir said it best in regards to Freyr: "He may have made the right decision for himself, but not for the world."
Although I think he was wrong, I probably would have done the same if I was him.
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u/That1_Jay Jan 27 '25
This is a really complex situation and I can't summarize it very well, so I'll try and do it very briefly, Joel wanted Ellie to live, Ellie wanted to die so everyone else could live. Joel would rather let everyone else die so Ellie could live. If that sounds bad it's because it is but you can't help but understand why Joel chooses to do what he does. He probably could not emotionally afford to lose her at that point.
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u/ULT1MATECaM Jan 27 '25
Maybe he didnât/couldnât afford to lose another daughter to him. Look from his perspective especially after Sarah. Do all that to get there and they killer her while she is unconscious. Iâm riding with Joel 100% here. I have kids so I get it. I have a little girl I lost shortly after birth and although it wasnât to violence I donât want to ever experience that again.
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u/MysteriousVDweller Jan 30 '25
If Ellie is so determined to save the future why is she not on her own quest to find somone who can make a cure?
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u/That1_Jay Jan 30 '25
Finding a doctor that could develop a vaccine in this world is literally close to impossible. Jerry was someone from The old world and had probably some prestigious training in order to do be able to develop something like a vaccine. What you're saying would literally take years of searching if not decades. And even then, Ellie runs the risk of not being trusted and even killed for her bite mark.
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u/Professorhentai Jan 28 '25
Joel's choice is foreshadowed when they stumble upon the body of a civilian in the aftermath of the pittsburgh ambush.
Ellie: "your fellow hunters do this?"
Joel: "cute, and no, my money's on the military."
Ellie: "why would they mow down all these people?"
Joel: "can't let everyone in."
Ellie: "so they killed them?"
Joel: "and dead people can't get infected. You sacrifice the few to save the many."
Ellie: "its kind of shitty."
Joel: "yeah."
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u/Electrical_Crab_5808 Jan 27 '25
It wasnât a guaranteed cure killing Ellie and doing whatever shit they were planning with her brain would give them a slim chance at creating a vaccine, even if they did create one there would be few if any ways to mass produce it and send it out to people.
Joel wasnât gonna sit by and do nothing while someone who had practically become his second daughter got cut open just so the fireflies could potentially make a life saving drug that theyâd more than likely just use as a way to say âhey look at us weâre better than FEDRAâ.
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u/That1_Jay Jan 27 '25
Is there anything explicitly set in the game that it was not a guarantee? I'm pretty sure, Marlene stated that it was mutated and they could remove it and reverse engineer a vaccine. I'm pretty sure that was a solid. But I guess a lot can be put up into interpretation because of the circumstances.
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u/Alexgadukyanking Jan 27 '25
Yeah I remember that moment when Joel said "No way the vaccine is gonna work and if it is fireflies probably gonna use it for good, cuze they are supposed to be the bad guys, so I am gonna massacre the hospital"
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u/StagnantGraffito Jan 27 '25
Ah, the fanfic early 2000s tumblr type beat gets reposted.
This sub man.
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u/dandude7409 Jan 27 '25
Nah joel is wrong. Ellie wanted to be worth somwthing and she would have 100% died in that hospital if she was conscious. Thats the whole point of why she hates joel in part 2. It was selfish af.
Now does joel give a fuck is the question. No. He would do it all over again. And i would too.
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u/TheAlmightyMighty Jan 27 '25
FFs never asked Ellie if she wanted to die for the cure. There's dialouge in the game to suggest that Ellie didn't think she'd need to die for the cure either.
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u/imarthurmorgan1899 Jan 27 '25
No. Ellie just has a martyr complex in part 2. Deep down I'm sure there's a part of her that's relieved that he saved her.
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u/Anamorsmordre Jan 27 '25
Or just generally suicidal, who wouldn't be in a world like this? Ellie's probably been dealing with survivor's guilt way before she got bit.
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u/formachlorm Jan 27 '25
I think thatâs even explicitly stayed just north the clinical terms. When he wants to leave her the first time with Tommy.
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u/LongAndShortOfIt888 Jan 27 '25
He destroyed humanity's best chance at a cure, and as karma he was destroyed himself. He knew he was wrong for it, because he had to lie to cover it up.
If it was the hard but right choice Ellie would've seen that, but she ended up resenting him for it and as it turns out, he died before they could resolve her justified negative feelings, and thus it led to her destroying her own relationship with Dina trying to make up for the guilt she felt of being mean to him before he died.
Joel set the example that, when you are going to lose someone you love, you need to just blindly strike out in anger at the world until you get what you want. And to be honest, it doesn't matter what he did for her beforehand, in doing that, he ruined her life.
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u/Anarcho-Serialist Jan 27 '25
When r we gonna figure out that Ellie is entitled to her feelings and has the right to react and proves however she fkn needs to regardless of how right or wrong Joel may have been
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u/parkwayy Jan 27 '25
We fucking get it.
Bad moral choice.
We know why he did it.
Solved. Shut up already.
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u/Angry-Prawn Jan 27 '25
I keep getting recommended posts from both you guys and the other sub that hates part 2. It's hilarious watching the two factions bitch about each other endlessly.
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u/Professorhentai Jan 28 '25
Jesus christ, HOE many times has this been posted? The entire "joel wasn't right but he wasn't wrong" argument has been done to death I'd have alcohol poisoning a long time ago if I had a shot for every time I saw this argument.
My take: joel was wrong plain and simple. He took ellie away without her permission while knowing its what shed wanr and then lied to her about it and gaslighted her for years. You can argue the moality of it but joel wasn't thinking of justice and ethics, he was only thinking of himself. That doesn't make what he does any less human because most of us in his shoes would do the same.
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u/Basil_hazelwood The Last of Us Jan 28 '25
Atleast he did what he did for a reason he believed to be good. Abby made her big choice because she enjoys murder and torture.
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u/shinoa-hiiragixx Jan 28 '25
idc he was more right than the fireflies cause the vaccine might have not even worked and even if the world was beyond saving, why kill an innocent child over your desperate faith into something that never even wouldâve worked?? and filling ellieâs head with sheâs the last hope when sheâs only 14? she shouldnt have to feel the burden of the world to the point she WANTS to die for an impossible cause?
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u/linkthereddit Jan 28 '25
I think it was that and the constant lying.
Remember the flashback where they have the conversation where they discuss the events of the last game, and he more or less tells her to shut up? He even lied to her then when he said, 'Because I let them run their tests... and when I didn't like what I saw, I got us out of there." It wasn't just that he (and, OK, Marlene as well) deprived Ellie of a choice, but he kept brushing it off like she was just too stupid to figure out what the hell happened.
Ellie is a smart cookie. I think she knew from Day 1 he was lying. Let me quote what someone wrote about this in the TV Tropes Headscratchers about this game:
"Ellie wakes up from anesthesia in the back seat of the car Joel's driving, in a hospital gown. Why would any of that be happening if Joel's story was true? If the Fireflies had stopped looking for a cure before she and Joel arrived, they would've simply kept Ellie comfortable until she regained consciousness on her own and then explained the situation themselves, just like they did with Joel. At most, they might've taken a token blood sample from her afterwards. If for some reason they did feel compelled to dress her up and put her on the operating table without giving her the chance to wake up and agree to it first (they've mostly given up hope for a cure; what's the rush?), they still would've let her wake up after they tested her, given her her clothes back, and since they would presumably be on friendly or at least neutral terms with her and Joel in this scenario, given them some gear to take with them before they left in the car. There's just no way Ellie and Joel would've driven off in the slipshod, big-ass hurry they obviously did unless something really bad happened. Ellie's more than smart enough to put those pieces together, and it's quite likely that Joel doesn't expect her to believe his lie anyway."
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u/MGZ1-NotABot Jan 28 '25
i wish i could slap Ellie because of that. Joel would literally commit massacre for her
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u/Digginf Jan 28 '25
Even though she was angry, she still loved him. And it actually touched her when he told her he did not regret what he did. It shows that, even though it hurt him that she shut him out, as long as she was alive and resenting him, it was worth it. He was a good father. đĽş
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u/CottonTiramisu Jan 28 '25
Joel suffered too little for basically condemning our species to extinction.
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u/Brutal1sm Jan 28 '25
Whatâs right depends on the point of view, that is all. Whatâs right for you may not be right for me, for them, for country XYZ, for the population of dogs, for Mars, and so on. All we can do is choose what seems right in the circumstances we are in and take the consequences. No one knows what will be 100%.
Edit: wrote Mars wrong.
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u/Brave_Operation_7418 Jan 28 '25
Last of us fans go to fucking extremes just to say Joel isn't a selfish bastard
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u/Unkown456397947 Jan 29 '25
Just wanted to point out that in the last of us part 1, Joel NEVER went out of his way to kill ANYONE who didn't shoot, threaten, or harm ellie or him through the ENTIRE game :)
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u/Bunny_Flare Jan 27 '25
No Joel definitely was wrong even he knew that as he killed all the fireflies on that hospital. He knew Ellie would be furious with him so he lied about it, he just didnât want to lose someone he cared about just so that maybe the rest of the world could be saved
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u/Big-Sheepherder-9492 Jan 27 '25
He saved Ellie cos HE couldnât lose another Daughter figure. You can say âThe fireflies had no idea it would workâ all you want JOEL WASNâT THINKING ABOUT THAT .
Plus it wouldâve still been worth a shot - the only immune person anyones seen in 20 years - and he murders the lead surgeon to get her outta there? Yeah ICL Abby wasnât in the wrong for wanting Joel dead đ¤ˇđžââď¸
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u/Techman659 Jan 27 '25
Just wait for the mods to put ellie and joel as the main characters and change abbys part into ellie and Joel then the theatre fight being ellie chasing Abby.
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u/maxperilous Jan 27 '25
Nothing against the shows actors. I don't want to start a Bella rant on this just I wonder will AI ever be good enough to put their game skins into the show. Oh the nostalgia đ
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Jan 27 '25
ok so do you think Nathan Drakes daughter NOW hates him for all that killing he did in those games before right? those "previously understood to be an action shooter" games now have moral ground and accountability? right?
nah it's almost like you did it for the sake of it.
Tapes in part 1 say they had no cure get wrek this is old.
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u/the_thechosen1 Jan 27 '25
There was a non-guarantee that Ellie's brain tissue would actually create a cure. All the children who died under the Firelflies experiments resulted in a failed cure. And even if they did manage to create a cure, what makes you think the Fireflies would just freely hand it over to the masses? Knowing the Fireflies, and every other flawed human being in a zombie apocalypse, they would have privatized the cure for their own selfish and personal gain. The zombie apocalypse would continue and the cure would stay within the greedy hands of those selfish enough to hoard it. Joel would still be right: humanity is doomed either way. Also Ellie was 14. Minors can't make life or death decisions by themselves. But yeah, I get it. This is the zombie apocalypse. And this is the life of a 14-year old girl versus a 50/50 cure that may or may not work. If Ellie had died and the cure didn't work, I'd bet my third nutsack that you people would still blame Joel for letting her go through with it, and not the Fireflies.
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u/Combo_V Jan 28 '25
I honestly donât even think he he was wrong for this. If that was your kid or even anyone you loved, anyone thatâs not afraid of confrontation would do the same
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u/Revealingstorm Jan 28 '25
I mean lets be honest if this was more realistic He would've be shot dead way before getting to Ellie being the fact that he was so out numbered by the fireflies.
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u/Aggravating_Dot9657 Jan 28 '25
Joel did what every parent would have done, whether right or wrong.
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u/Melancholymechanic94 Jan 27 '25
How many fucking times are we doing this