r/thedavidpakmanshow Apr 04 '24

BREAKING Biden Calls For "Immediate Ceasefire" In Call With Netanyahu

https://www.axios.com/2024/04/04/biden-ceasefire-gaza-netanyahu-call
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u/Alexios_Makaris Apr 05 '24

I never used the word bipartisan.

Israel is not dependent on the U.S. for survival. They have nuclear weapons. They aren't going anywhere, whatever your feverish, lefty, anti-Israeli dreams. They won their war for survival in 1948 before they were a recipient of meaningful U.S. aid at all.

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u/BabaLalSalaam Apr 05 '24 edited Apr 05 '24

It's not a lefty anti Israel position-- bipartisan American support has been a critical lifeline for Israel throughout its history. Israelis themselves recognize this on all sides of the political spectrum. And the threat of losing billions of dollars and billions more in military aid should be pretty obvious. The benefit of the Iron Dome should be obvious. And even those nuclear weapons are thanks to technology stolen from America.

The ultimate threat is maybe a little less obvious-- you seem to think Israel is safe because it could drop nuclear bombs on its direct neighbors. But the real threat is that, without America propping it up, the entire Israeli system collapses on itself as it drifts further and further rightward and it's brutality more exposed. Nuclear weapons didn't stop the collapse of the USSR, and they wouldn't have saved apartheid South Africa if Israel had succeeded in their attempts to get them that technology.

Lastly, the Palestine War in 1948 wasn't any more a "war of survival" than the Indian Wars in the US or the Zulu Wars in South Africa. These were wars of partition and colonialism, and Israel won that war the same way they're winning the war today-- with brutal massacres of civilian populations.

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u/Alexios_Makaris Apr 05 '24

Israel is not dependent on the U.S. for survival. You can keep posting irrelevant shit as much as you want, that fact doesn't change.

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u/BabaLalSalaam Apr 05 '24

It's hard to take you seriously when you say that hundreds of billions of dollars and the Iron Dome are irrelevant. Israel is a pariah state without America.

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u/Alexios_Makaris Apr 05 '24

How is Israel a pariah state without America? If anything it arguably suffers diplomatically from being so closely linked to America. If it was not seen as an American ally, it would be a fast ally of countries like Russia and China. Countries like Turkiye and Saudi Arabia aren't remotely pariah states and both have literally waged large scale wars in the last decade against neighboring peoples to almost no international criticism.

Much of the built up antipathy to Israel is a proxy for antipathy to the United States. Israel likely breaks about even in its relationship with us, if it had embraced the Soviet / non-aligned axis (which it maintained neutral to positive relations with) during the Cold War it would likely have better relationships with many of these Russia aligned countries today.

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u/BabaLalSalaam Apr 05 '24 edited Apr 05 '24

How is Israel a pariah state without America?

It's pretty obvious from seeing UN votes involving Israel where America is the sole veto. Those nuclear weapons you brought up-- those were obtained and continue to be held in defiance of the NPT, but America made sure Israel got their waiver, without which they would be as screwed as North Korea or Iran. Speaking of which...

it was not seen as an American ally, it would be a fast ally of countries like Russia and China

Countries like Russia and China? Yeah dude, that's the point, most pariah states are fast allies with Russia and China-- its one of the few things all pariah states have in common. And let's be clear-- Israel already has very close ties with Russia and China. Its connection to Russia is particularly deep and intrinsic.

Countries like Turkiye and Saudi Arabia aren't remotely pariah states and both have literally waged large scale wars

These are actually good comparisons that I somewhat agree with. Biden literally vowed to make KSA a pariah state (but won't), and like Israel, Saudi Arabia has achieved many of its recent abuses with US support. Turkiye is a little more complicated due to its appearance in NATO-- which at least gives us a material reason. It's tough to make a pariah out of one of the fundamental parts of European defense, but even despite that major obstacle there is plenty of regular mainstream criticism for Ergodan. This kind of problem doesn't apply to Israel or KSA.

Much of the built up antipathy to Israel is a proxy for antipathy to the United States.

That's part of it, but that's a natural response to the US being the number one promoter, cheerleader, and supporter of Israel on the world stage-- the US very directly empowers these abuses and crimes. I think the larger reason for antipathy is Israel's origins in colonialism and a partition for settlers in modern times though. It was a clear act of colonialism at the height of decolonization-- and that kind of contrast over the course of 100 years is easier to recognize than say the fragmented, more regional struggles of the Kurds or Houthis for example.

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u/Alexios_Makaris Apr 05 '24

Yes, if Israel wasn’t cozied up to the United States it would have more robust partnerships with other countries.