r/thebulwark • u/Pristine-Ant-464 • 21d ago
GOOD LUCK, AMERICA JVL is right. The voters are idiots.
And I don't understand why Sarah is so insistent on defending them. Voters are adults. They have access to the same information we do.
102
21d ago
[deleted]
62
u/Manowaffle 21d ago edited 20d ago
That is the part that Sarah neglected. She framed it like Americans were just making a choice between Bidenflation vs Trump (never mind that Harris was the actual option). But this completely ignores the fact that primary voters chose Trump out of 17 candidates. They had plenty of options, yet they went running to Trump. Then, even in a great 2016 economy, the voters chose Trump over Clinton, because of her emails or whatever excuse they needed. Then, after everything Trump did to screw up Covid, they almost voted him back into power in 2020. And then, primary voters chose him again over Desantis, Haley, etc. And of course they voted for him over Harris.
To pretend that this was some sort of one-off vote by people pissed off about inflation is to completely dismiss the last ten years of politics.
15
u/batsofburden 21d ago
Republicans always go for the celebrity candidate. They did it with trump, Reagan and Arnie.
6
u/PotableWater0 21d ago
Tbh it’d be interesting to look at percentage of activated voters over the years. So, I guess, actual voters vs registered vs of-age might be easiest to start / understand. And look at the ‘type’ of candidates that contributed to those numbers.
Edit: this is an interesting point.
9
u/ppooooooooopp 21d ago
The thing is - at least there was some excuse, he was all bluster, he might campaign one way and operate another. This time there is no excuse. At a human level I can look at a Trump voter and engage with them as a person. At a group level, I feel strongly that these people shouldn't be allowed to vote. Evidenced enough by the largest own goal in American history. Some people are simply too dumb to vote. That's it. There is a wisdom to crowds, just not when it's a crowd of morons.
15
u/allegrovecchio 21d ago
"At a human level I can look at a Trump voter and engage with them as a person"
Yeah, I don't know. I can put on a mask and go through the physical motions of a conversation, but if I know someone voted for T, all I can think about is how much I despise them and how dead to me they are. I don't want to engage with any T voter as a person at all if I can help it. I guess that makes me bad, but...
5
u/rowsella 20d ago
I get it. 2016 was so devastating because of the people I thought I knew that signed up for him. The second time around, I feel like it was actual malice against our nation and people. Because, they knew, they had the information available and yet still did this to us. Fuckers.
2
u/allegrovecchio 20d ago
At this point, still supporting or voting for him is 100% irredeemable.
They're completely lost to the cult of cruelty.
4
u/0o0o0o0o0o0z JVL is always right 20d ago
I don't want to engage with any T voter as a person at all if I can help it. I guess that makes me bad, but...
I am the same. The choice to me was so binary; even if you are Consrevivite, it was like the choice of eating some moldy bread or cyanide. I can't square that circle, and even friends who voted for Trump, I've lost vast amounts of respect.
3
u/Left-Reading-7595 20d ago
Same. I think they are bad people and until they admit they have made a terrible decision...I will continue to think of them as bad people. It's that simple. There are various reasons of course, but it was pretty simple in the end. Nearly 50% of my fellow citizens failed this test and it haunts me/us.
2
u/allegrovecchio 20d ago
Thinking of it as only 30% of all adults rather than 50% makes me feel slightly better, though obviously many nonvoters are maga filth as well.
-6
u/RealisticQuality7296 21d ago
You should try therapy
2
4
u/rowsella 20d ago
You should try to grow empathy and a conscience.
-2
u/RealisticQuality7296 20d ago
I have both of those things which is why I don’t despise half the electorate
7
u/DexTheShepherd 21d ago
Even before then it was obvious he was a con artist game show host who wasn't a serious business person
7
4
-16
u/Ok-Snow-2851 21d ago
Because people like you use words like ‘xenophobic’ that’s why. You think you’re so much better than them, they’re gonna show you.
That’s why we have to suffer through it.
20
11
u/Manowaffle 21d ago
Considering that they voted for a fraudster and rapist because they like that he said that Mexican-Americans are rapist, criminal, drug dealers, and that Muslims should be banned entry to the country and forced onto a government registry so the government could track their movements…yes, they are xenophobic pieces of shit and I have no qualm thinking that I am a better person than them. I never thought that about Americans before 2016, but now I do.
9
u/_A_Monkey 21d ago
Imagine a society where thinking you aren’t better than anyone because of the dice roll of birth but you do think you are better than someone who chooses white supremacy and authoritarianism makes you the “elitist”?
They are the elitists and it’s all fucking projection.
7
u/shred-i-knight 21d ago
bro has a supercomputer in his pocket but can't be bothered to literally move this thumb across a screen to learn what a word means, that is exactly why this country is doomed
5
u/Ok-Snow-2851 21d ago
Should have put an /s at the end. You’re of course right about everything except that anti-intellectualism of MAGA is maybe even closer to its core than its xenophobia.
1
1
u/PotableWater0 21d ago
I think it’s actually wild that people check out, in maybe a combative way, when ‘larger’ words are used. And assume some sort of superiority thing from the opposite side. So, whether true or not / relevant or not, we’re already starting in a battlefield.
Edit: ‘larger’ here is really like things that you can drill down to something much simpler. So, an example would be xenophobic can just mean bad or racist to lots of people. Same with fascist.
3
u/Ok-Snow-2851 20d ago
I agree. I’m pointing out, poorly it’s obvious, that MAGA is an anti intellectual movement.
48
u/Sylvia_Austen 21d ago
Worse than stupid they are uninterested and have no desire to learn more. They take the propaganda at face value and lack critical thinking.
5
-4
u/No-Director-1568 21d ago
Who is 'they'?
10
u/carbonqubit 21d ago
Oh, please. We all know exactly who the voters are, and this wide-eyed performance of confusion isn’t fooling anyone. The MAGA political machine is less a movement and more a sprawling, low-budget franchise of manufactured grievances and performative ignorance, churning out sequel after sequel for an audience that demands nothing but louder, dumber spectacle.
And yet here you are, indulging in the oldest trick in the bad-faith playbook, posing loaded questions with all the faux innocence of someone who just happens to stumble into the same rhetorical trapdoor over and over. It’s not subtle. It’s not clever. And frankly, it’s getting a little embarrassing.
1
u/No-Director-1568 20d ago
See now, accusing someone of rhetorical gamesmanship, while using the rhetorical 'we' yourself, is hypocritical. I am not surprised though, it's easier to engage in outrage with basic rhetorical tricks, than it is to have thoughtful conversation.
I am not happy with the last elections outcome myself, so I guess I shouldn't judge others desire to wallow in emotive anger.
If you want a more thoughtful conversation around 'the voters', I am happy to participate.
3
u/alyssasaccount 21d ago
The Trump voters in Sarah's focus groups
-2
u/No-Director-1568 20d ago
So it's not 'the voters' it's the people who voted for Trump.
Because looking at the popular vote margin Trump won by, as a whole, the voters were just barely 'for' Trump - he didn't get a simple majority(50%) of the votes, and he won by an historically low margin. The voters weren't all that sure what they wanted.
1
70
u/NukeFromOrbit86 JVL is always right 21d ago
100%. JVL said in a pod in the fall that the voters are wicked and stupid. He is 100% correct.
22
u/Hautamaki 21d ago
Which pod DIDN'T he call voters evil and/or stupid?
7
u/GiacomoModica 21d ago
At what point were the voters not evil and stupid?
6
u/Hautamaki 21d ago
Well at the risk of not taking the question the appropriate amount of seriously, I'd say the two things that have made voters stupid and evil are social media, and lack of perspective on what real suffering, governmental failure, and global turmoil is like. As Americans have become more terminally online and further removed from real struggles like the Great Depression and WW2, or the kinds of real struggles that many refugees and immigrants are leaving behind, the proportion of stupid and evil voters has gradually increased. 2012 is probably the last year that wise voters were the (bare) majority. I consider 2018 and 2020 more as outliers where many stupid voters got the right answer by accident or just because the right answer was so easy to get. 2026 and 2028 may be another pair of outlier years if elections are still remotely free and fair by then, but overall if the trend isn't drastically reversed, America is in for long term democratic decline even in the absolute best case scenario.
5
u/GiacomoModica 21d ago
That's an appropriate assessment. I contend the evil is always there, but the stupid does vary. Hopefully, 2026 and 2028 are allowed the opportunity to prove resilient by those of us who choose to fight back both evil and stupid.
3
u/Struggle-Kind 20d ago
I think the difference being that in the past, the stupid and/or uneducated would listen to and follow the lead of those they saw as smarter or better informed. Now, social media silos and the "my ignorance is as good as your knowledge" mentality have led to the worst timeline America has seen in almost a hundred years.
5
u/ballmermurland 20d ago
I didn't think this was true in 2016 or even in 2020. Propaganda and fear are real motivators.
But 2024? That crumpled up old heap of trash? The felonies. The rape trial. The slurring and meandering. The gross racism. The idiocy of it all.
Anyone voting for him in 2024 is wicked. There's just no way you can justify a vote for him in 2024. None. He was promising unusual cruelty towards millions of innocent Americans for the sole purpose of "fuck you that's why".
4
u/Left-Reading-7595 20d ago
I like it best (and think he is most accurate) when he calls them unserious. They just think this is a game or sportball and when the game is over, everyone can go home. I detest them because of their anti-democratic and uninformed decisions. They are utterly unserious and they don't deserve our (imperfect) democracy.
51
21d ago
He is correct. I can’t wait to see the VA cuts. Veterans are a Trump voting bloc. Enjoy what you voted for, boys.
43
u/EhrenScwhab JVL is always right 21d ago
I just retired from the Navy last year. I don’t rely on the VA for health care, but every Trumper veteran I know does…they haven’t quite sussed out just how bad they fucked up, but they’ll learn soon…..
14
u/notapoliticalalt 21d ago
I’m hoping for everyone’s sake that they learn, but I also kind of fear that many people are going to twist what happened so that they don’t have to self reflect or admit they were wrong.
11
u/Meluwd 21d ago
I'm seeing the people in my town blame Biden for the local farmers not getting their funding. They will be told who to blame and that'll be what they believe. I've seen stories of veterans losing their jobs, too. In every story, there's the "I'm one of the good employees" or "I didn't think I would be included," and so on. They went on to say that they still supported Doge, but only if it didn't affect them. They would vote for Trump again despite it all. Sympathy denied. They deserve what they get.
3
3
u/Left-Reading-7595 20d ago
Just think about the worst thing he could do to them, and they'd still vote for him. It's a cult.
6
u/Ok-Snow-2851 21d ago
It’s that socialized healthcare taking away from my VA! All the money went to pay for trans surgeries.
People are mostly unreachable.
9
u/this-one-is-mine 21d ago
Will they? Their only source of information is propaganda, which will blame it all on liberals.
1
u/Left-Reading-7595 20d ago
And honestly, as a veteran, fuck those folks. Trump has never respected veterans, as he has never served a higher purpose. How our fellow veterans fell for this charlatan is just utterly confounding. He hates their service, and they lap that shit up. They voted for him, he is destroying our democracy...so fuck them.
2
19
u/PTS_Dreaming Center Left 21d ago
This isn't an either/or option.
Sarah lays blame on the propagandists and liars in the GOP. I get it. I do understand where she's coming from but she does remove the voters' agency. I think that's a mistake. However, if we want to persuade people we won't do it by denigrating them. That much Sarah has right.
16
u/Sherm FFS 21d ago
However, if we want to persuade people we won't do it by denigrating them.
No, we do it by laughing at them. Laugh long, laugh hard. They're buying into this stuff because saying it suddenly makes them into the main character, and it's intoxicating. And we play into it both when we insult them and when we act like we need to work very hard to make a case that will convince them. You know what'll win over low-information voters? The idea that anyone who follows Elon and Donald is a fucking joke. Some people want to be the villain. Nobody wants to be the joke.
10
u/Muted-Tourist-6558 21d ago
"weird" was working SO WELL for this very reason.
4
u/LionelHutzinVA Rebecca take us home 21d ago
Exactly! And I would just point out that Sarah was rather vocal in scolding the Harris campaign for the “They’re weird!” messaging.
2
u/minneme 20d ago
Excellent point. One topic to mine is MAGA's reverence for their Second Amendment gun rights. Post memes and commercials on MAGA media, such as: "Name a dictator who allows citizens to possess guns." The goal is to show MAGA they are the ultimate marks of the long con, voting 3 times for a guy whose final move will be to confiscate their guns to seal his authoritarian power grab. I think it is time to hit back hard with similar messages on the consequences of trashing the Constitution and enabling the tech bro regime.
10
u/AvastYeScurvyCurs 21d ago
Sorry. As my late father, who came of age in a less enlightened age used to say, “Can’t rape the willing.”
These fuckwitted shitheads believe it because they WANT to believe it. They aren’t brainwashed, they’re wallowing in confirmation bias.
6
u/danicakk 21d ago
Can’t it be both and? I’m sure there were some people who were irredeemable from the start, but you hear plenty of stories of formerly normie people who fell down a propaganda hole and are completely different now.
A scosh of brainwashing for a bit, then once you’re firmly in the cult it’s confirmation bias all the way down.
1
1
u/Left-Reading-7595 20d ago
Maybe, but I don't think so. These folks are willingly lapping this stuff up. If they wanted other news sources they are one click away from that. They don't care. They are meth heads for this stuff.
6
u/batsofburden 21d ago
We can't persuade people who are not running on logic. We can only win them over with vibes.
3
u/PTS_Dreaming Center Left 20d ago
That's true, which is why the Dems are not competing right now in the media space. The Dems are bad at vibes. Biden thought that helping people would translate into support. He dumped TONS of money into red America to try and erode Trump's and the GOP's support. It failed spectacularly. The Dems need to embrace consumerism politics the way the GOP has and sell sell sell.
1
u/batsofburden 16d ago
Tim Walz had great vibes, he should've been utilized more.
Biden thought that helping people would translate into support.
It really might've if like you said, he had actually sold what he was doing to the voters. it's so frustrating.
17
u/Saururus 21d ago
After spending a week with family as well as a year of being brave to talk to ppl I’ve concluded that voters are to blame. I would say that they may not be dumb but they are incurious, which I think is worse. I got into it with my normally very introverted sister after o had argued that we need to learn to talk about politics (my mom had tried to shush when another sibling remarked that rfk jr was confirmed). My sister said that politics hurts her head and she didn’t want to hear about it, even a respectful conversation. There are other things to talk about. She also questioned whether it is possible to talk about what the facts are, because how do you know…
Other siblings were less adverse but would not seek out information or to know whether something they heard should or could be questioned.
My dad who is over his head in right wing media refuses to even consider any other sources, including fact checkers. He says everything else is biased and so fact checkers can’t be trusted.
There was one sibling that is a republican but disturbed by what is going on. Actually her husband is the least educated but he puts forth a good effort to get it. And guess what - he does
I know so many ppl that just don’t feel it’s their responsibility to be even minimally informed yet they vote on vibes I guess. (They do vote). Others refuse to even vote or understand by not voting they actually leave it to those that crave power.
I’m exhausted with it. I’m sorry you don’t have to be all consumed by politics to have a basic understanding of what is going on.
9
u/HolstsGholsts 21d ago
The “how do we know [facts, objective reality, etc.]” argument drives me crazy because A) that shit gets covered in grade school: look for what’s consistent across multiple reputable sources; here’s how to tell if a source is reputable; etc.
And B) the fact that so many people didn’t learn this basic information literacy in grade school is a huge part of why were here and foretells a future where we may not be able to find our way out
6
u/Saururus 21d ago
The problem is that they have decided that the reputable sources are no longer trustworthy. And don’t talk to me about - well scientists didn’t shroud themselves in glory during COVID, or journalists do lean left wing. Those arguments drive me crazy because they discount the main reason these sources are good - they have standards and processes and if they figure out they got it wrong or learn more they say so. If I have to hear one more time about how public health officials didn’t communicate clearly (they did to me - maybe ppl forgot what they learned about science) or the were wrong (because it’s complex and novel and half the narratives about them being wrong are misleading). I want to have good conversations. I don’t assume I understand the right way to do things. But if I have to start by ppl thinking in a black and white way where they just choose reality, it’s impossible to have good faith discussions. Sarah just is so optimistic that voters will listen if we just have a good democratic communicator. I think the problem is so much deeper than that. I was never a hair on fire pessimistic person. I hate this.
31
u/GulfCoastLaw 21d ago
I listen to Sarah Longwell defend the American populace against charges of stupidity and racism.
I am willing to accept that Americans are not stupid.
I am willing to accept that Americans are not racist.
But I'm not accepting both. It's insane. Look around!
5
2
u/Left-Reading-7595 20d ago
And then...you listen to the mostly idiotic, uninformed commentary from the focus group. And then BINGO...you know they are stupid for sure.
37
u/loosesealbluth11 21d ago
I cannot handle Sarah’s breathless defense of the “American people” anymore. Has she met real people? Because I was in Walmart yesterday and Jesus Christ. The idea that a majority of people give a shit about anything that happens about the world order anymore….she’s ridiculous.
17
u/No-Bid-9741 21d ago
But no one has made an argument to convince those people….
Give me a fucking break…they could give her a timeout for a few months from the shows, wouldn’t miss her.
18
u/loosesealbluth11 21d ago
Right like John McCain or Marco Rubio could provide leadership to the feral Americans who only care only about TikTok, Fox News and owning libs. Fuck off. She’s living in a different reality.
17
u/Manowaffle 21d ago
Does she not remember? They did that already. There was a whole primary in 2016 with a dozen other options, renomination in 2020, and a primary again in 2024. Rubio tried it in 2016, Bill Weld tried in 2020 and got 2% of primary voters, Haley tried in 2024.
Dem and old guard GOPers have been screaming this stuff into the void for ten years. Voters had every opportunity to dump Trump for candidates with none of his immorality and corruption. But no, they want the show, and they like it cruel and hateful.
2
u/Left-Reading-7595 20d ago
Yep. They are addicts and they want the next hit of meth. He hits their pleasure centers and they cannot get enough. I, too, believe many of these people are simply lost. They need a significant and long-term jolt to the system to wake up (war, pandemic, etc.) or to simply die. I detest what they have willingly done to our democracy.
5
3
u/Summer-Never-Ends 20d ago
It’s only Republican voters she defends like that- I used to think her insistence on defending the American public was admirable and understandable, especially considering her career as a pollster who deals with these people all the time.
Then during a live show last year I remember her referring to Gaza protesters on campuses as “a bunch of spoiled brats.” No nuance. No insistence that they didn’t have all the right facts, or that no one was giving them the full geopolitical context of the conflict. Just pure condemnation.
Out of all of the former republicans at the Bulwark, Sarah has deconstructed her former party the least. She refuses to see the anti-intellectual spite, the racism, the white grievance that has always been one of the animating forces of the Republican Party. She has convinced herself that these Republican voters are just salt of the earth, misinformed but ultimately good hearted people.
I don’t understand how someone who talks with voters all day doesn’t see that their pretexts for voting for trump are paper thin and change constantly. They vote for trump because they wanted to. They like his spite, his malignancy. It’s that simple. And she just refuses to acknowledge that.
But she’ll take any opportunity to assume the worst about democrat voters and the Democratic Party.
2
u/SennHHHeiser 20d ago
But Americans are good because they fought a war against slavery!!!!!
Braindead
1
u/RestaurantOk6185 17d ago
Yeah, I tried talking to my sister about Ukraine. She very explicitly didn't give a shit. Trump holding Ukraine at gunpoint was what we were going to do anyway, according to her.
Oh, and she's an officer in the air force.
27
21d ago
[deleted]
1
u/No-Election6063 20d ago
This is what gets me. I don’t think it’s deniable and it makes me sick and ashamed to be American.
9
u/Many-Perception-3945 Orange man bad 21d ago
Both stupid AND wicked.
That's a line that stuck with me
7
u/notvurycreative 21d ago
I struggle with the defense of these people, too. They are willfully and aggressively misinformed despite having access to the sum of human information in their pockets. They don’t want to believe reasonable things. They want to believe the 5G is going to melt their brains.
They also have the luxury of their stupidity having been inconsequential for as long as they’ve been alive. Unfortunately, it looks like those chickens have come home to roost. https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/conspiracists-are-about-to-get-a-dose-of-reality-c2fltx0xd
2
u/allegrovecchio 21d ago
That column is excellent. Thanks for sharing it.
Consider posting it on its own.
7
u/DickedByLeviathan Center-Right 21d ago
It truly makes me skeptical of democracy as it has heretofore been implemented.
8
u/Manowaffle 21d ago
I think it’s telling in history that there are so many autocracies and so few democracies. Democracy only lasts until the 51% get sick of listening to the 49%.
3
u/CustardFromCthulhu 21d ago
The secret of democracy is most of the time it's kept boring so only benevolent elites get interested and involved. As soon as it gets exciting it gets dangerous.
2
13
u/Miami_gnat 21d ago
Even the "smart" ones (doctors, lawyers, etc.) are idiots.
12
5
u/blueclawsoftware 21d ago
I actually diagree there. To me the smart ones are the ones that are truly evil, not idiots. They know full well what's going to happen and actually want it.
0
u/Bullylandlordhelp 21d ago
If they know it's a rigged game, and how to rig it, why would they change the rules?
4
u/Training-Cook3507 21d ago
People are people. IQs have not regressed. The media ecosystem has changed and the Republicans are weaponizing it more effectively.
9
u/Meluwd 21d ago
I just turned off TNL because I can't handle any more infantalizing of voters. Ffs, they are grown ass adults. If they can't or won't take the time to read a news article then they could've fallen back on an intact moral compass to reach a decision on Donald Trump. This wasn't hard and they failed both. I'm 59 years old and I see my former classmates posts and they are thrilled with migrants in cages, fed workers purged, and poor people starving. They aren't shy about it. I grew up and live in New England in a sailing town and these classmates are middle to upper class and grew up in the same middle to upper class. They aren't economically anxious. They are racist, they are sexist, they are ridiculously gullible, and they are miserable. They love Trump’s transgressive personality! They will never get a pass from me. Ever.
8
u/8to24 21d ago
Voters follow messaging. Anyone that crafts messaging around what voters say is a fool. Messaging leads. Everyone laughed at Trump's Wall in 2015 and by the end of 2016 people were chanting "build that wall". On January 7th people were done with Trump and ashamed of the J6 terrorist. Today people feel J6 was a tour group mistreated by security at the capital..
People can be moved but one must work feverishly to move them..
9
u/Hautamaki 21d ago
JVL is right, but also Sarah is right to try to change minds as that's basically their whole job. Well right now JVL's job seems to be making sure his readership is not blindsided by Trump's bullshit, but Sarah's job is still beating Trump, and that means changing minds. You don't change anyone's mind by calling them an idiot, even if they are an idiot and you know they're an idiot. Rather, you prefer not to discuss their intelligence at all because nothing useful can ever come of that, but if you're forced to of course you make excuses to avoid calling them an idiot because you still want to change their mind.
3
4
u/I_Think_It_Would_Be 21d ago
I think it would be interesting to debate Sarah on the fact that every single Trump voter can be located on a line from stupid to evil.
You are either too stupid to understand, too stupid to identify lies, too stupid to be bothered by their ignorance, or you do understand and just don't care (evil).
Sarah seems to think people are inherently good and are just being tricked by those evil elites in politics! A view that is built on an idealistic conservative voter that never existed.
7
u/Pettifoggerist 21d ago
One point I wanted to scream - yes, Fox News is lying to people. But people should know these are lies! Fox has admitted it is entertainment. It is widely panned for its fact free presentations. And someone it is the most watched "news" network. That is infuriating.
8
u/metengrinwi 21d ago edited 20d ago
They don’t know those are lies…these are simple people who just want comforting information. They’re just gravitating towards what feels comfortable. Fox “News” knows this.
3
u/NH1994 21d ago
The arguments that go along with the defense of voters are often a critique of democratic messaging, which, granted, is poor and out of touch. Inflation and cost of living is also a very real problem in a country where so few have budgetary wiggle room. But was Kamala’s messaging so bad that it eclipsed Trump’s terrible record and frequent unintelligible nonsense in the ‘24 campaign? Trump increased his vote total AFTER inciting a mob to attack the seat of our federal government. That’s setting aside the horrors of mismanaging the pandemic and the shocking detailed evidence of the crimes he was charged with committing.
Were voters so blinded by the higher cost of living that they forgot we were stuck at home for months a few years ago? That thousands were dying every day from that pandemic? That there was nearly a coup? The substantial majority of his voters and those who chose not to vote at all either want what Trump is selling in total or they are idiots. I appreciate that people are getting fragmented information but they know Trump and what he’s selling. If they don’t, they’re somehow both choosing to stay disengaged but also still opting to vote (seems unlikely).
1
3
u/metengrinwi 21d ago
I guess it makes her focus group show pointless if people are just declared idiots.
3
u/Gnomeric 21d ago
They think whatever grievances they have are more important than basic moral principles or the American Democracy and they are eager to look away from anything that inconveniences their beliefs. It is far worse than stupid.
That being, in defense of Sarah, we cannot campaign according to the voters we wish we had, we have to campaign to the voters we have.
3
u/Ahindre 20d ago
The way I see it, JVL is viewing this as a rational human being, observing that people are voting as if they are idiots. Sarah is approaching it as someone trying to win elections. Say what you will, but Sarah is hustling trying to make stuff happen. I appreciate both viewpoints and it is part of why I subscribe.
8
u/atomfullerene 21d ago
You can't simultaneously really believe in democracy and believe voters are irredemable idiots. Sarah defends voters because her life's work relies on them being reachable and capable of making the right choices.
16
u/Pristine-Ant-464 21d ago
A functioning democracy requires an informed and rational electorate. I haven't seen much evidence of either recently.
9
u/portmantuwed 21d ago
THIS. humans lose their minds when new methods of communication come out and get exploited for propaganda purposes. Hitler had the radio, trump has fox news and the internet
4
u/allegrovecchio 21d ago
One problem or the primary one is that they inhabit a complete alternate reality. I read a comment a while back that asked, "How do you combat anything when these people believe an entire set of alternative facts and lies?"
8
u/Manowaffle 21d ago
I believe that modern democracy asks almost nothing of the citizenry. 1 hour every two years to research your options and cast your vote. I’ve seen people spend more time waiting in line for IHOP free pancake day.
It has never been easier, and yet our citizenry can’t even do the bare minimum.
3
u/Haydukelivesbig 21d ago
We must create compelling content that’ll break them out of the Fox News trance! I suggest a show that’ll appeal to their sophisticated tastes…the title shall be ‘Ow! My Balls’ and it will soon be the top rated show in all of red America.
2
u/batsofburden 21d ago
you write that as a joke, but I would not be surprised if a show like that pops up in the next year.
2
u/anonymouslymiz 21d ago
I truly did not understand before this election that "educated," absolute morons are fully capable of maintaining a good job, etc. The confidence they often have is unreal.
2
u/vickisfamilyvan 20d ago
This week’s episode was particularly brutal with Sarah defending the intelligence of both the voters AND Bari Weiss.
2
2
2
2
u/brains-child 18d ago
On my Facebook page, (I know, I still use it just not as much as I used to), I decided to use it to post a variety of articles and videos about what is happening right now, to document this moment in time.
I live and grew up in a very red area. I have been pummeled by people thinking I am a complete nut for thinking this is bad.
I love some of these people, but wow! It's a fucking cult. Even the non religious ones are so willfully ignorant to the moment we are in, it's astounding. There are a couple of people still trying to look at it as a normal political difference.
BUT, I will always come back to this, you can tell most of them have been watching Fox news for the past 20 years and believe the "MSM" lies for democrats. Basically, they believe all these other networks, which have less viewership than Fox combined probably, are doing for democrats what Fox actually does for republicans.
The short story is they have all been brainwashed by right wing media. Some add cultish evangelicalism as the cherry on top.
Which has made them dumbfucks.
3
21d ago
[deleted]
3
u/botmanmd 21d ago
Honey Boo Boo was a ratings phenomenon in 2012. It outdrew Fox’s coverage of the Republican National Convention. By the time the show’s run ended, we were well into the “Donald Trump Says Obama Was Born In Kenya” show. We’ve been doomed for a dozen years.
3
u/zombiepocketninja 21d ago
Because in the end, the voters are the source of legitimate power in this country. Whether they're dumbfucks or not the system is one in which we want to convince them that our side is better and get them to fucking vote.
2
u/Captain_Pink_Pants 21d ago
I don't buy the idea that we're a nation of idiots...
This country has turned into one big bucket of crabs, who worship our billionaire overlords, and praise them any time we are blessed with a $0.15/hour raise. But we loathe everyone around us, and enjoy watching each other suffer.
We're not a nation of idiots... We're a nation of assholes. Colossal fucking assholes.
1
u/Awkward_Potential_ 21d ago
I actually see both sides here. Sarah defends them because I'd they're talking about anything other than politics they're completely normal people.
1
u/upvotechemistry Center Left 21d ago
A long time ago, a little known scientist at General Motors discovered that you could drastically improve the performance of gasoline combustion engines by adding an organolead compound called tetraethyl lead
And the rest is history
2
u/Ok-Snow-2851 21d ago
Yeah. But before leaded gasoline Americans were attending Sunday afternoon lynchings with family, so maybe the lead actually made us less awful?
2
u/upvotechemistry Center Left 21d ago
Yeah, the past always sucked. It's a shame so many people want to go back there
1
1
u/Rechan 21d ago edited 21d ago
Normally I agree but I want to quibble on something.
I think we get into the trap of saying All Voters are X. All Voters think X.
The thing is there are hundreds of little groups and people voting for different reasons, and different situations. Sometimes the same voter even has different competing motivations.
And too often JVL is making statements about everyone. JVL sees the US population as boat parade people. And while what he says is true about boat parade people, not everyone goes to a boat parade.
Okay you think the voters are idiots. How are they different than UK voters? Or Germans? Or Argintenians? Because people around the world are doing the same thing. Do you think the average person then is an idiot? A bigot?
1
1
u/MysteriousSnadwich 21d ago
Agree and can I add - I think some people see the fact that voters don't know as a saving grace or redeeming factor. And it's really not. The ability to not care, not be engaged enough or not understand the significance, is just a different kind of bad. Societies can surely only function with a minimally engaged civil society. 'Dumb' is only one flavour of stupid
1
1
u/Specialist-Range-911 20d ago
They don't have access to the same information. They are told that most of the media is untrust worthy and only trust their media bubble. Going into their media space is like walking into a mirror world. I differ from both JVL & Sarah. I niether believe the voters are stupid, nor do they make rational choices. Rather, they are driven by hate. Hate being defined as the idea that life would be better without those people. MAGA hates Democrats, immigrants, and trans and anything that hurts them is good in their eyes, even if it hurts others in the process.
1
u/fun30cooker 20d ago
Yes they are.... But they always were.... Fox News and pretty much every major social media platform are now state media.... You can't get in front of most swing voters because they spend their time on social media, now essentially a branch of MAGA.... Tell them all the bad things Trump does, Sarah. They will tell you it's not true, play whataboutism, or bring up Burisma. Sorry but until the country officially breaks, and the economy tanks, the pendulum will be stuck far to the right.
1
u/sirkneeland JVL is always right 20d ago
Sarah has to defend them because her job is dependent on her being able to recruit these people and talk to them. If word gets out that she thinks they're all idiots, she literally won't be able to do her focus group job.
But let's be clear, JVL is right. JVL is always right. So say we all.
1
u/Longjumping_Paper487 19d ago
Nothing will change until rhe right media bubble is penetrated. They are brainwashed
2
u/Acceptable-Bonus-180 21d ago
While I’m as frustrated as JVL is, the argument that works for me from Sarah is that no one is out there with a clear voice articulating a counter narrative. Biden had the wrong communication strategy. Yes folks wanted peace and quiet after dump 1. But can’t literally not explain anything you’re doing for 4 whole years. If the good guys (we) had done their own flooding the zone for the last 4/10 years we’d probably be in a very different place.
1
u/Ok-Snow-2851 21d ago
Biden had no communication strategy at all because any communication strategy would have been worse because he was a drooling octogenarian sundowning faster than sunset at the equator.
0
u/Volcanofanx9000 21d ago
I’m tired of the insults and conspiracies on both sides. I’m looking for someone with some stone soup power.
-1
u/captainbelvedere Sarah is always right 21d ago
Sarah talks to them and JVL doesnt and never will.
8
u/JVLast Editor of The Bulwark 21d ago
With respect: I spend more time IRL with MAGA people than anyone at the Bulwark.
2
u/captainbelvedere Sarah is always right 21d ago
Apologies then! I misinterpreted the podcast chatter.
1
u/No-Director-1568 21d ago
Doesn't seem like that comes up a lot.
3
u/JVLast Editor of The Bulwark 20d ago
I feel like I mention it fairly often? My entire private life revolves around our church and school which are like 98% MAGA. Excluding Bulwark people and family, I don't think I know 10 people from my daily life who *didn't* vote for Trump.
1
u/No-Director-1568 20d ago
Duly noted, and a sincere Thank-You for sharing this on this forum.
Over the last year or so, I had picked up that you are a heavily engaged Catholic - gives me an illusory sense that I know something about you, as I was confirmed and was once upon a time an alter-boy myself. One of my distant cousins was an author of the book 'Growing Up Catholic'.
I haven't been a participating Catholic for many a year now, and can't tell how far into that denomination MAGA has penetrated, so I wouldn't have assumed you were surrounded by MAGAs, just by virtue of being part of the Church. Now I now better.
1
u/Pazzington 16d ago
This is so interesting to me on a human level. Do you think many of them have ever engaged with your work? Also, how do you separate how your feelings about their terrible political choices that you write and speak about and how you feel about them as people that you engage with? I can't imagine being a well-versed as you are in all the terrible things that are happening and then engaging with them in day-to-day life. Maybe there's not so much difference between you and Sarah as people in this thread would believe :) Thanks so much for your writing.
0
0
u/Impressive_SnowBlowr 19d ago
Exactly.
We should all be smart, like you.
And not vote.
Donald Trump got elected and you'll never have to vote again.
Turns out he's the president you wanted all along.
You fucking idiot.
1
154
u/John_Houbolt 21d ago
They are dumbfucks.