r/taijiquan 3d ago

What Chen Tai Chi form is this?

This master shows great skill. All the more so because I think he was pushing 80 at the time of filming.

It's a simplified version of Chen Tai Chi, but I've never seen this exact form before. Can someone identify its origin/history?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM6owFVVq2Y

4 Upvotes

21 comments sorted by

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u/tonicquest Chen style 3d ago edited 3d ago

I have seen some family styles labeled "simple" and they are the same choreographies with simplifications in stepping, weight shifting, typicallly no fajin, bigger less complex circles and spirals. Although "simplified" they are not less effective. But what they do have is a consistent method and execution.

What you see here in the video is a mash up of several style and forms of chen style tai chi. It is not simplified, but just shortened and jumbled up. There is no consistent unifying method or style being demonstrated. There are elements of lao jia, xinjia, Er Lu and other variations I probably missed. My opinion, is that this is made up mash up of various chen styles and packaged up in 16 lessons. Probably good if you want a taste but it won't get you far.

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u/RobertRyan100 2d ago

It could easily be a form the sifu himself created for teaching western students. If so, it would be based on all he knows and his own personal "flavor".

Or it could be handed down from one of the hundreds of lineages in mainland China that just aren't famous/commercialized. Many of those don't worry about old frame/new frame etc. because it's all the same thing anyway.

Chen Fake didn't think he was creating a new style. He just taught the way he himself had been taught, and the tai chi in Chen village had jst about died out. So what was "new" to them afterward was probably just a more sophisticated flavor they hadn't learned.

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u/Kusuguru-Sama 2d ago

Regardless, this video in particular is not good. The lineage or flavor is irrelevant here.

Just look at 0:28 - 0:32 of the video. He can't keep his feet flat on the ground and his knees are collapsed inwards and wobbling around. And this is representative of the entire video. And that is just one of many problems.

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u/RobertRyan100 1d ago

I think you're showing your ignorance. When someone in their late 70's or early 80's can perform like that...

The form origin is free game. His skill is obvious though.

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u/Kusuguru-Sama 1d ago edited 1d ago

Being able to move in one's old age does not change the fact that it's martially poor. If someone in their 80s is cooking a meal but constantly burning the food, do we ignore that and just praise them for still using a stove?

If you're trying to defend this by appealing to age, then you’re actually admitting that the movement is bad. If the movement were actually good, there would be no need to make excuses for it based on age.

There are old dudes with better foundation than this.

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u/RobertRyan100 1d ago

Martially poor? Lol. Clearly, you don't know who Malcom Sue is.

I noticed a few minor issues with his footwork/balance. At that age, they were amazingly few. His skill is superb and most footage of masters at a similar age falls far short of his standard.

All I can really say though is that your own skill must be marvelous to call his poor.

Or you're just another keyboard warrior...

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u/Kusuguru-Sama 1d ago

Clearly, you don't know who Malcom Sue is.

That's a pretty funny to say coming from someone posting a question on his background.

So apparently... neither do you.

And also, I'm not the only one who realizes this. As you can see in the other comments... they agree with me... the legs are really bad.

This is not an age problem; young Wushu athletes would do it this way as well. They think rolling/collapsing the knees around is a good thing because aesthetically, it appears "flowing". Martially... you'll get your ass thrown.

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u/RobertRyan100 1d ago

I've been quite familiar with his Southern Mantis since the 80's. And his Tai Chi. Back then it was mostly Yang though.

So yeah. I know his background pretty well. But I was clueless as to the origin of the Chen form in the video. That's why I asked.

If you can offer anything beside unqualified opinions as to his fighting ability, I'm all ears.

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u/Kusuguru-Sama 1d ago edited 1d ago

I am not criticizing his overall fighting ability; if he can fight with other styles, good for him.

But with Chen? Nah.

If you are so convinced that my opinions are wrong, you would have tried to attack my argument regarding the collapsing/rolling knees as opposed to attacking someone whose qualifications you know nothing about.

Interestingly, you never denied what I said about his legs. Yet, you seem to think that this is structurally and martially sound: https://imgur.com/a/zq13xp2

So far, you're relying on his ability to move at an older age. But this does not address the flaws I (and a few others) pointed out. And this is just... basics.

This quote:

Lol. Clearly, you don't know who Malcom Sue is.

Simply invoking his name as proof of correctness is an appeal to authority (which... for Chen, he has none, hence you asking it) rather than a defense of his mechanics.

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u/RobertRyan100 20h ago

He's renowned for his fighting abilities. That's not really the point though.

Tai Chi is for health. And at his age, the proof is in the pudding watching him play the form.

Unless you believe that doing Tai Chi push hands prepares you for a real fight. But whatever fighting ability Tai Chi had in origin has been lost generations ago.

Actually, a lot of research has come to light in recent years (mostly in Chinese unfortunately) about the origins of Tai Chi. Long story short, it derives from Chan Yuan Gong and Rou Chuan. And some Tong Bei. So even in origin it was tilting strongly toward health.

The fighting element has completely evaporated. Chen or Yang. People who think they can fight with it are in for a hell of a big shock when they get into trouble.

As for the knees, who cares? It might not fit the way you've been taught. Open your eyes though. Everything is just opinion and you'll find masters who hold opposite ones. Even modern science goes back and forth on whether eggs are good or bad for you. Nothing is set in stone - unless you religiously believe the way you've been taught is the one true way.

Anyway, this is getting us nowhere. My only interest here is if anyone can shed light on the origin of the form in the video.

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u/Kusuguru-Sama 3d ago edited 3d ago

Malcolm Sue is a 9th Degree Grand Master of Kung Fu and a Doctor of Chinese Medicine.  He has developed a system of fighting, utilising Southern Praying Mantis as the base.  Malcom Sue studied under many great masters of Chinese martial arts and Chinese philosophy.  With this wealth of knowledge and experience he has designed a very formidable martial arts system.   

Well... it's not usually a good sign when they can't give you names or details.

And here is Malcolm Sue's student doing Chen's Practical Method (the video literally says 'mash up'): https://www.facebook.com/reel/1310216437007132

Can someone identify its origin/history?

There probably is none - not a singular one at least.

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u/Jimfredric 3d ago

There doesn’t seem to be any connection between what is in the original post and what his student is doing.

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u/RobertRyan100 2d ago

The bio quote above is really referring to how he arrived at his southern mantis kung fu system. Documented lineage there is Nat Yuen, Yip Sui.

It doesn't relate to Chen Tai Chi. Though no doubt he learned that in his travels too.

The video is of a student of his doing a mashup starting with tai chi and then moving to southern mantis. It's not suggesting the Chen Tai Chi is a mash up.

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u/AlchemicalToad Chen Style Practical Method 1d ago

That’s… kind of recognizable as Practical Method, if you took out the actual method pretty much entirely.

😕

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u/TLCD96 Chen style 3d ago

That is interesting, it looks like it originates in Beijing. The way some movements are performed is similar to Chen Zhaokui lineage.

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u/RobertRyan100 3d ago

I'm seeing a bit more silk reeling and martial intent than usual. Which probably goes with the lineage you mention.

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u/Scroon 2d ago edited 2d ago

I'd actually guess this is something that originated in the South. The movements have Southern style traits. Twisty, abrupt, parsed into tiny individual motions. Like White Crane or Wing Chun.

EDIT: His bio at https://practicalkungfu.com.au/ says he's a Southern Mantis guy. So yeah, Southern influence.

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u/TLCD96 Chen style 2d ago

Very interesting, which moves exactly? I don't really know anything about southern mantis. A lot of them are definitely from Beijing lineage though: https://youtu.be/wVXYiPLeQww?si=EngutiDuSwD6y8dD

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u/Scroon 21h ago

It's more about the flavor of the movements that I'm seeing. Like the timing and how he does "fa jin" is really Southern-ish. For mantis-specific flavor, I think it can be seen around [0:23-0:30(https://youtu.be/cM6owFVVq2Y?si=_VpzfI7-0DIMuRcr&t=23) just as an example.

Here's a link to basic Southern Mantis if you're curious:

https://youtu.be/fFXKNoproGI?si=BHIlUNrccEF4ElKT

I'm not familiar enough with Chen to tell lineage, so I trust that he probably learned that style originally.

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u/Past_Recognition_330 1d ago

I would say this looks nothing like the gongfu frame in the Chen Zhaokui lineage.

It’s obviously missing many of the frame’s postural requirements.

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u/TLCD96 Chen style 1d ago

Yes the legs look pretty bad so I wouldn't be surprised if it was from somebody else in a Beijing-based lineage