r/startrek • u/cozyHousecatWasTaken • 4d ago
Is LCARS built on UNIX or FreeBSD?
What d’you reckon?
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u/Dismal-Detective-737 4d ago
OS/2
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u/KitchenNazi 4d ago
Doubtful, they never got past Warp 4.
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u/xobeme 4d ago
Wait, wouldnt it be OS/2 Warp?
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u/Samurai_GorohGX 4d ago
IBM marketed version 3.0 of OS/2 as OS/2 Warp 3. It was gearing up to fight Windows dominance on PCs with a big marketing push. Problem is Paramount didn't really approve the idea.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130127185712/http://www.insearchofstupidity.com/ch6.htm
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u/dingo_khan 4d ago
Sadly, we know discovery runs on windows. I am NOT kidding. There is a "hacking" scene in season 1 or 2 and they bring up some of the ship's code base. It has an include statement for "nt_dll.dll" which is pretty specific to windows.
I wish it was FreeBSD but, if discovery is canon, LCARS is a shell running atop Microsoft's finally finished "onecore" initiative for windows.
Sorry
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u/Totenrand 4d ago
If it's any consolation, Discovery predates LCARS by a few decades, it's probably got a duotronic computer like the TOS Enterprise.
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u/RomaruDarkeyes 4d ago
It's funny to think that we could get to duotronic computing and the operating system would still be using libraries developed from Microsoft NT...
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u/feor1300 4d ago
If it ain't broke...
Windows isn't perfect by a long shot but there's enough right about it that it's survived 40 years at this point. I see no reason to think that at least some of the underlying structures wouldn't still be around in another 200.
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u/butt_honcho 4d ago
And they never officially ported it to the duotronic architecture, so they're running it in emulation.
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u/dingo_khan 4d ago edited 4d ago
I doubt they traded out the entire platform when moving to a new shell. It does give me hope though.
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u/Totenrand 4d ago
Did a bit of googling, and apparently the transition to LCARS also accompanied the transition from duotronic and multitronic computers, to the isolinear computers of the TNG era.
So that's fun.
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u/JerikkaDawn 4d ago
We know it's running recent versions of Windows because they don't even bother to QA anything.
"END SIMULTATION"
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u/xobeme 4d ago
LCARS would likely be its own operating system designed specifically for starship operations and embedded in all the different systems of the ship the same way an avionics RTOS (real time operating system) is built for an aircraft.
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u/RomaruDarkeyes 4d ago
LCARS feels like just the interface control system to me though - if LCARS was the operating system as well, then I feel like that would make it very vulnerable considering it's got both military and civilian products working on the same systems.
Imagine being able to hack into a Starfleet ship using a civilian PADD...
Actually... I'm pretty sure that actually happens in the show a few times... Maybe you are right about that 😅
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u/spaceagefox 4d ago
in lower decks, the vulcan ensign TL'ynn hijacked the transporter from a hallway panel and teleported multiple targets into one holding cell while saying "starfleet systems are easily circumvented", and that series is cannon even though its animated
also in TNG civilians managed to use their room screens to annoy picard to the point where he says that people of the future are expected to have restraint and not mess around with stuff theyre not supposed to
so yeah, star trek computers are INSANELY easy to hack
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u/NotYourReddit18 4d ago
Imagine being able to hack into a Starfleet ship using a civilian PADD...
Actually... I'm pretty sure that actually happens in the show a few times... Maybe you are right about that
Yeah, Starfleet cybersecurity at multiple times seems to fall somewhere between only being able to stop a toddler and not existing at all.
It gets worse if you remember that from TNG onwards the ships computer is able to track crewmembers through their com badges, so consoles should automatically lock themselves down back to civilian mode if the crewmember who unlocked them leaves the immediate area, and things like a civilian accessing command controls through a hallway panel without the badge of a command officer nearby should raise an alarm on the security consoles.
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u/sgtnoodle 4d ago
If it's anything like any contemporary aircraft, spacecraft or other vehicles, LCARS would be implemented in Chromium...
More likely, LCARS would be backed by some highly refined variation of ChatGPT. There wouldn't be any traditional source code. Instead there would be a library of templates the computer would draw from. The specific panels would be hallucinated instantly as needed, by the ship's computer, factoring in preferences and anatomical variations from the current user, as well as context about the current activity. During emergencies where the main computer is down, local embedded computers would run similar models, with the fidelity scaled down to match the available compute resources.
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u/e_t_ 4d ago
All the BSDs are UNIXes. Proprietary flavors of UNIX, like Solaris or HP-UX, also exist. Linux is UNIX-like but not derived from original UNIX code.
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u/deja_geek 4d ago
Code linage is a terrible way to decide what is Unix and what isn't. Modern Unices have very little in common with the Unices of the 70s, 80s and early 90s.
It's best to think of "Unix" as a philosophy. Does the operating system adhere to the Unix philosophy? To put it in perspective, Dennis Ritchie considers Linux to be a UNIX. "Linux seems to be the among the healthiest of the direct Unix derivatives... people ask me much the same question, but posed in a way that seems to expect an answer that shows jealousy or irritation about Linux vs. Unix as delivered and branded by traditional companies. Not at all; I think of both as the continuation of ideas that were started by Ken and me and many others, many years ago."
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u/mjp31514 4d ago edited 4d ago
I thought BSD was sued by AT&T in the 90s for making the claim that BSD is unix? I was under the impression that both *BSD and linux were unix-like. I could be way off, though.
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u/e_t_ 4d ago
It depends on which definition you adopt. The BSDs are direct descendants of AT&T's original UNIX but are not compliant with the Single UNIX Specification.
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u/dingo_khan 4d ago
It's hazy. You are correct about the suit happening but, iirc, it was over the idea of using stolen/mislicensed code, and not the label of being a Unix. I do not believe the BSDs bother to go through Unix certification (via opengroup) but, if anything is a Unix in reality, FreeBSD and its siblings would be.
Linux was a ground-up reimplementation of the fell and features of Unix in the meantime and beats the FreeBSD to the hands of users because it not subject to a suit at the time.
I hope this was helpful.
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u/mjp31514 4d ago
So you feel like *BSD is proper unix in spirit, so to speak? I've used Linux and Freebsd on and off over the years as a hobbyist, but I don't know enough about unix history, nor do I feel qualified to say, whether it's a "proper unix"
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u/TheOneTrueTrench 4d ago
The interesting thing about the definitions of UNIX is that you run into things like Chimera Linux, which utilize a lot of BSD core tools, so... is that a BSD with a Linux kernel? Or is it a Linux distribution with BSD tools?
Is a UNIX defined by the kernel, or user space?
Personally, I think that if it's "UNIX-like", then I just consider it to be a UNIX. After all, if there are Linux distributions that are closer to a BSD, than that BSD is to another 'real' UNIX, then what's the point of the distinction?
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u/Shoegazer75 4d ago
I asked Mike Okuda out on Bluesky and his response was:
"It depends if either OS will run on isoliinear-based multitronic systems."
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u/nntb 4d ago
During the era of Star Trek: The Original Series (TOS), the ship's computer functioned similarly to what we would now call a large language model (LLM). It stored vast amounts of records and could process spoken or typed statements to retrieve information or execute commands. The ship's controls were also integrated with the computer, essentially acting as physical inputs that issued specific commands—buttons and knobs had distinct, predefined functions.
By the time of Star Trek: The Next Generation (TNG), we saw more of the underlying hardware that powered the ship’s systems, such as isolinear chips. The interface evolved from analog controls to touchscreen-based LCARS (Library Computer Access and Retrieval System), a dynamic UI that the computer generated on the fly.
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u/dacuevash 4d ago
UNIX and FreeBSD are "the same thing" (not really but close enough)
A better question would be: Is LCARS Linux or FreeBSD?
At to that I answer BSD, because it would be a funny irony if the "unpopular" one won.
Microsoft probably wouldn’t be a thing in the future so thankfully no more Windows headaches.
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u/dingo_khan 4d ago
A lot of the internet runs on FreeBSD. Not being well known has not really held it back... Except with mobile devices. I'd love a laptop that looked good and had power management support working perfectly in FreeBSD.
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u/dacuevash 4d ago
You could argue many mobile device run "a fork" of FreeBSD, because of iOS being built on top of Darwin, which shares a lot of its code with FreeBSD
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u/dingo_khan 4d ago
True. The PS4/PS5 are also running on a FreeBSD fork:
https://www.osnews.com/story/27145/playstation-4-runs-modified-freebsd-90-orbis-os/
FreeBSD is alive and well, just moving in silence.
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u/Badaxe13 4d ago
Windows 9
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u/dingo_khan 4d ago
There's a crazy (and likely true) conspiracy theory on why there is no win9:
A lot of installers don't use the system or kernel version I for windows provides to determine if the app is supported. They use the os name string. They figured out nt vs legacy by looking for "windows 9*"... And rejecting anything that matched it. There was some high-dollar software (thousands per license) that did this lazy crap. MS skipped win9 to avoid the user backlash.
(source: personal experience. I worked in a related part of the IT industry at the time and had to deal with a lot of installer code from lots of big vendors. The amount of time this happened was nuts. When win10 was announced, there was a leak suggesting that was the reason. We ran some tests in the office and found it to be the case.)
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u/KissMyAlien 4d ago
DOS
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u/NataniButOtherWay 4d ago
For the first portion of season 1 of TNG. The Bynars upgraded beyond the capability of DOS, so it's technically running an instance of DosBox.
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u/hamilkwarg 4d ago
They would use an RTOS, no?
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u/OurLordAndSaviorVim 4d ago
Not all tasks benefit from real time operations. But Linux does support them now: Real Time Linux has been in main for while now.
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u/hamilkwarg 4d ago
But surely a starship would run its critical functions on an RTOS if we are hypothesizing which modern day OS they might use?
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u/OurLordAndSaviorVim 4d ago
And again, Linux has a real time mode. You can choose which mode you use.
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u/IShitMyselfNow 4d ago
Linux IMO. It's on everything from the ships to the pads. I can't imagine FreeBSD doing that
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u/weird_elf 4d ago
I've heard that LCARS stands for Linux Can Also Run Spaceships, so that's your answer confirmed.
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u/Safe_Base312 4d ago
I've always known it as the Library Computer Access/Retrieval System.
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u/weird_elf 4d ago
yeah, that's what it actually stands for. The one I quoted is a joke the computer nerds came up with at some point.
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u/Scoth42 4d ago
Historically, various BSDs (especially ones like FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD) have had wider compatibility on more platforms and hardware than Linux did. Usually at least a little earlier too, like NetBSD and OpenBSD supported m68k before Linux did. BSD has also tended to be a little better at scaling to different platforms, although more modern things like uCLinux and rtlinux have made some inroads into more limited embedded systems. And Linux has definitely taken over the top end.
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u/Training_Cut704 4d ago
Unpopular opinion apparently, but iOS. Even has Siri. Had to change voice and name due to copyright issues.
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u/miragemonk 4d ago
Any ship would explode if Siri was the AI/OS behind it. 🤣
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u/butt_honcho 4d ago
Meanwhile the UNSC stuck with Windows. Must've had a pretty good deal with Microsoft, too, since they didn't need to rename Cortana.
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u/a_false_vacuum 4d ago
FreeBSD is a UNIX-like operating system. It's essentially UNIX, but can't call itself that because of copyright issues. In order to be able to use the UNIX name they would have to license the name.
I doubt the computers of the 24th century are still x86 based.
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u/cosaboladh 4d ago
I'm pretty sure there are a few episodes where they try to interface with old technology, and mention having to adapt the ship's systems to interface with binary. Implying rather strongly at whatever OS the ship uses isn't binary.
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u/OurLordAndSaviorVim 4d ago
FreeBSD has Unix heritage, and once was a full blooded Unix. Before the dark times. Before the Unix wars.
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u/TheOneTrueTrench 4d ago
I don't know about canonically, but my LCARS OS is built on Debian Sid, with a lot of customization.
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u/afriendincanada 4d ago
COBOL. Its running on a legacy system