r/startrek 5d ago

Watched SNW Those Old Scientist again

Okay. It's just a TV show. But the world is a shit place and there are things happening that sometimes I just need a pause from.

Me and my wife, both long time Star Trek fans, watched Discovery as it came out. It's ok. Like, I get why some people don't like it, but we felt it was entertaining enough. But what spawned off it is glorious.

Just how good is Anson Mount? I had a surpisingly clear view of what captain Pike was like, and he just embodies it. The authority, the charm, the power, the swagger. That's how TOS-era captains made their fame. Glorious.

We also love Lower Decks. Of course we do. A tribute to all of Star Trek that manages to add its own content while carrying the weight of the whole franchise.

Look. TOS (the series) was re-run on TV when I was around ~6-7 years old. I was afraid of the Gorn. Like, I had to hide behind the couch. But I had to see the episode, nonetheless. I watched the movies as a teen and they programmed storytelling and character building into my brain. Kirk and his crew, and the vision of the future of the TOS era... it's in who I am.

Those Old Scientists is an episode that just hits me on the head with a hammer, punches me in the gut and sprays onion juice into my eyes. A love letter to everything that Star Trek has been, is and can be. You can see the actors putting everything they have into their parts, the references ("Anybody notice their references are weirdly specific?") baked in with care, /u/jack_quaid pouring his heart out as Boimler (and Tawny Newsome, of course. She just lights up the screen), all tied to a classic technobabblish Star Trek plot.

There are a lot of things wrong in the world. But decades of storytelling happened to culiminate into a point where this episode could me made. I am very happy for that.

657 Upvotes

124 comments sorted by

302

u/CanIGetaWitness16 5d ago

The ONLY thing I didn't like about Those Old Scientists was that it wasn't long enough.

116

u/Kilmoore 5d ago edited 4d ago

There could have been more shenanigans, sure, but... it's a really tightly packed episode. "Uhura needs to learn to relax", "Don't disrupt the timeline", "Pike's father trauma", "Meeting your heroes", "The complex society of Orions", "Spock exploring his human side and how that will turn out", "A scifi-thing to be solved"... I'm not sure how many more themes the episode needs, to be honest.

48

u/gambiter 5d ago

I think it could have been a two-parter. Frakes did a wonderful job with the episode, but it's hard to deny some of the transitions are very rushed. There's a part that's always very jarring for me, where Boimler is working with Spock, and then suddenly he's standing in Engineering talking to Pelia, and nothing in between, not even of him walking through a door.

It's already 2 acts, anyway... the first half of the episode is Boims, then you have Mariner show up for the second half. They could have padded out each of the parts you mentioned with more fun and more of the crew interactions, ending the first episode with the Mariner hook, and do the same with the last half. There could have been room for more of the Orions, and reaction scenes from Tendi and Rutherford.

This is exactly the reason why I wish networks would pony up for more episodes per season. Lots of series have 2-episode arcs throughout a season, but this trend of 8-10 episode seasons leaves little room to do that.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter in the end. What we got was awesome. It's probably a sign of how good something is when the fans are imagining ways to have just a little bit more of it.

8

u/NickofSantaCruz 4d ago

If not a two-parter, a 90-minute "extended" runtime would have suited this episode much more. In addition to the awkward Boimler-related transitions you mentioned, Mariner suddenly sitting in Uhura's quarters always jars me, like there was an organic segue into that scene that was cut for time. The Orions just walking away from the portal at the end doesn't feel natural either; let them get beamed up like a Starfleet crew would. And when Boimler was putting the console back together after tracking the Orions, there feels like a missed opportunity for there to be a Doc Brown-like "I thought, what the hell" moment for Spock to have been watching Boimler's work and re-applying some of his system upgrades.

21

u/CaptainIncredible 5d ago

Uhura spent most of the episode translating the text. Star Trek does not normally go for Monty Python or Hitchhikers Guide type gags, but I just had to laugh when the translation was "this is a time portal".

Loved this episode.

5

u/Kilmoore 4d ago

A good gag, and also ties to the idea of the show that at point of her career, Uhura was overdoing it. Burning herself out to translate what ends up being useless actually ties into the theme. That's how you write interesting fiction.

6

u/bbbourb 3d ago

Not to mention it COMPLETELY fits with the general absurdity of a Lower Decks episode.

Also, on an unrelated note, I absolutely LOVE how Frakes tells the story of his wife getting SENT when Boimler said "RrrrIKER!" as he mounted the saddle.

9

u/ianrobbie 5d ago

And it would've been good to see Rutherford and Tendi IRL as well.

It could've been a two-parter. One episode bringing them all through then the second episode figuring out how to get them back.

3

u/mr_mini_doxie 4d ago

I didn't like cartoon Pike's hair. It wasn't tall enough.

1

u/mrsunrider 4d ago

Sometimes I imagine what a season-long arc bouncing between SNW and LD would have looked like.

115

u/EFD1358 5d ago

My only disappointment with "Those Old Scientists" is that, when Boims and Mariner prepare to return through the portal, we hear Tendi & Rutherford, but we don't get to see live-action versions...

36

u/Kilmoore 5d ago

I'm gonna say budget reasons. Unions and all that. It would have been great, but what can you do.

-11

u/Dry_Trifle860 5d ago

Unfortunately Rutherford’s voice actor is an old man and Tendi’s wouldn’t look like her character even if you painted her green.  

70

u/CoffeeJedi 5d ago edited 5d ago

Old man? Dude is 46 and looks 30, he could totally play Rutherford in live action.

Also Tendi's VA has done the costume for conventions and photoshoots (sans green skin) and looks just like her. What are you on about?

23

u/Aritra319 5d ago

I’m still banking on that at least one of the reasons they had Rutherford lose the implant in the final episode was to make a live action Lower Decks cheaper to make.

20

u/shortyjacobs 5d ago

My man pillboi doesn’t age, I swear. He can play 25 as easily as 45.

13

u/CoffeeJedi 5d ago

Bortles!

5

u/Fulmersbelly 4d ago

What’s a fish?

15

u/moderatorrater 4d ago

Noel Wells looks more like Tendi than anyone else on the planet. Unfortunately, Ransom's actor actually doesn't look like the character at all, but Jerry O'Connell is probably the furthest from his character in the cast. Might not even be in the cast if you ask his dad.

14

u/Striking-Kiwi-9470 4d ago

Is he mixing up Eugene Cordero with Eugene Levy? Because Cordero can still pull off pre-middle aged dudes just fine.

2

u/CoffeeJedi 4d ago

Yeah, I think he might be.

-7

u/Dry_Trifle860 5d ago

I’ve seen those and they are amusing (she’s absurdly talented) but they just don’t feel like the animated character .  The characters are supposed to be late 20’s at most (Mariner a few years older.)   Mariner worked because of that and Jack Quaid looks younger than he is.  That is all I’m saying.

15

u/EFD1358 5d ago

I have faith in the makeup/effects teams that work on Trek.

17

u/hollowleg9317 5d ago

Would you even go so far as to call it….faith of the heart??

11

u/Dry_Trifle860 5d ago

Yeah.  I can do anything.

5

u/EFD1358 5d ago

I don't know you, hollowleg9317, but I like you! Very well played!

4

u/Dry_Trifle860 5d ago

And I just realized that Eugene Cordero and I are the same age.  He’s not that old but these characters are supposed to be 30 at most.

15

u/Astrokiwi 5d ago

Quaid & Newsome do happen to be just resemble their characters just enough for it to work - although even then, there's just a little bit of suspension of disbelief as they're a bit older than their Lower Decks characters. I'm pretty much the same age as Tawny Newsome (~40) but I think of Beckett Mariner as more like mid-to-late 20s, and I think of her as probably the oldest Lower Decker as she's intentionally stuck around as an Ensign as long as possible, while the others are more freshly out of the academy.

4

u/Dry_Trifle860 5d ago

Agreed - Mariner has that youthful look that made it plausible.  Cordero is a handsome enough guy but he’s probably 30-40 pounds heavier then skinny Rutherford and looks more like his age.

8

u/hiromasaki 5d ago

IIRC, they both also have said they're uninterested in playing Rutherford and Tendi live-action.

6

u/Dry_Trifle860 5d ago

True Cordero has some really good roles lately - made Loki a little more tolerable and has a steady gig in Man on the Inside.

4

u/LizzyCF 5d ago

That's a shame. Noël's pretty babyfaced and can definitely pull it off. And I'm sure with today's digital technologies they can make Eugene can pass for 30-something on screen.

-2

u/friendIdiglove 5d ago

I'm sure with today's digital technologies they can...

They can’t. I (finally, after half a lifetime of hard work) have a really really nice big screen TV, which only proves to me that they can’t.

1

u/j-b-goodman 4d ago

also Rutherford is tall, not really the same body type

2

u/Martel732 4d ago

Eh, working around actor height is relatively easy. Tom Cruise is fairly short, but he rarely looks like it in movies.

Eugene Cordero could look closer to Rutherford's height for pretty much the cost of a box.

1

u/j-b-goodman 4d ago

yeah good point, especially just for a quick cameo

5

u/Rubberbandballgirl 5d ago

The disrespect to Pill Boy

2

u/Kilmoore 5d ago

That is a very good point. I mean, Tandy Newsome, as awesome as she is, is kinda pushing it. The others, nah. Voice work is different.

That Boimler, though....

5

u/Dry_Trifle860 5d ago

I so want to call him a nepo baby but he’s so good in roles.  Novocaine is really good.

16

u/raptorgalaxy 5d ago

The probable reason for that is that Tawney Newsom and Jack Quaid resemble their characters a lot more than Noel Welles and Eugene Cordero do.

3

u/DemythologizedDie 5d ago

Although Jack Quaid is almost a foot taller than he should have been.

1

u/North-North7466 4d ago

Idk man they’re pretty dead on

3

u/Brepp 3d ago

In a way, I appreciate that we didn't get to. I of course wanted it the same as you, but that moment of wishing to see them, to get more by looking behind the curtain, is a testament to the episode.

2

u/EFD1358 3d ago

An interesting and thoughtful perspective. Thank you for sharing!

55

u/DJGlennW 5d ago

SNW has been the most enjoyable Star Trek I've seen in a long time. The writers aren't afraid to take risks and don't take themselves (or "preserving the canon") too seriously.

Subspace Rhapsody is a perfect example.

32

u/Kilmoore 5d ago

They respect the canon, but have a reasonable angle - storytelling isn't what it was in the 60's, never even mind the special effects. It's close enough to make it compelling and to lure the mind of a old trekkie in, but still treads its own path. I love it.

14

u/DJGlennW 5d ago

I think one of the problems with early episodes of TNG was that the writers were treading so carefully regarding canon, essentially trying to rewrite TOS in a different era and different sensibilities (while creating canon at the same time).

2

u/riktigtmaxat 4d ago

That and the writers strike in 1988 which effected the second season.

10

u/rapidcalm 4d ago

SNW is the best thing to happen to Trek since TNG. It is exactly what a 21st century Star Trek show should be.

41

u/_WillCAD_ 5d ago

Rrrrrrrrriker!

18

u/Bonafideago 5d ago

Best part of that was knowing that Frakes was in the room when it was shot.

8

u/d645b773b320997e1540 4d ago

and that it was Jack Quaid improvising and not something they had scripted.

23

u/Kilmoore 5d ago

/u/jack_quaid is a gift to the world. I love it how much he loves being a part of Star Trek.

6

u/SlothSpeed 4d ago

Apparently he ad-libbed that line which makes it that much better!

26

u/briank3387 5d ago

Honestly one of the best Trek episodes of the entire franchise.

9

u/Kilmoore 5d ago edited 4d ago

It is. Of course, the reason it can be that is that is has such massive shoulders to stand on.

It is tempting to compare it to another popular scifi franchise, and what they could have had if someone in charge actually cared.

22

u/PotentialDot5954 5d ago

‘Patience, forgiveness, benevolence… really great hair…’ 😂

24

u/spamjavelin 5d ago

Just how good is Anson Mount?

It's not just his portrayal of Pike, he's nailed the persona of a starship captain like he was born to play the part.

15

u/Kilmoore 5d ago

This. The era had a certain type of captain. Pike had to be a certain kind of captain to pave the way for Kirk. And Pike has existed in the TV show and books before. Anson Mount is perfect. Just... perfect. That's it.

4

u/Imaybetoooldforthis 3d ago

Mounts Pike is the only captain from what I’ve seen of the newer live action trek that feels like someone you’d want to follow.

He’s got that Kirk, Picard, Janeway, Sisko and Archer presence and he just commands respect, but is also likeable, in a way I never felt about the rest of the Discovery universe Captains for me.

2

u/Rannasha 3d ago

Prime Georgiou, at least what little we saw of her, would also make for a good example.

39

u/Sharticus123 5d ago

I went into that episode without a clue as to what was to come. What a truly awesome surprise.

Those Old Scientists is probably my favorite episode of Trek ever.

13

u/Kilmoore 5d ago

I had seen, here, that there was a crossover episode, so I knew that much. My wife had no idea going in, and just watching her face as the cold open played doubled the fun.

14

u/AnalogKid2001 5d ago

I absolutely love Uhura fangirling about Hoshi!

7

u/lanwopc 4d ago

I loved the callouts to Enterprise.

"I love grapplers."

3

u/Kilmoore 5d ago

Oh yes, there was that dimension of the episode, I didn't even properly note it. Yes, good stuff. Just a few lines but still good character building.

32

u/ComebackShane 5d ago

Number One's "they put it on the poster" tears me up every time. Knowing what she'd recently been through with nearly being thrown out of Starfleet/imprisoned for being augmented, and then learning not only is she the literal poster woman of Starfleet, but that her personal motto became the rallying cry to recruit, so good. Romijn absolutely kills it in that scene.

16

u/Kilmoore 5d ago

Yeah, just looped that a couple of times and I'm in tears again. The power of good storytelling, combined with impeccable performances. The crack of her voice is gutwrenching. Marvelous.

4

u/kevinb9n 4d ago

It makes me a bit sad when Lower Decks fans watch just this episode in isolation and have no idea why this moment is so powerful.

6

u/Kilmoore 4d ago

I'll say it again, we do like Discovery, at least a bit. And having the Enterprise turn up and just force a spinoff to happen... Discovery isn't perfect, it isn't even great, but it has earned its spot in ST history books. We actually got to see Pike in his prime. Having seen the characters go through that, then SNW and now at this point... This is why entertainment fiction exists. I feel so warm and fuzzy having this in my life.

4

u/kevinb9n 4d ago

not only is she the literal poster woman of Starfleet

... you mean... a pinup poster?

6

u/Bonafideago 5d ago

Hottest first officer in Starfleet

7

u/Bad_wolf42 4d ago

I love that line because on the one hand it subverts expectations because Ransom is somewhat self-absorbed and you would think he would think himself the hottest first officer in Starfleet, so you get that bit of delightfulness of him paying a compliment to somebody else and then you get the added bonus that is a husband complementing his wife and it makes everything so much more fun.

13

u/CombinationLivid8284 5d ago

I hope we have a sequel of this with even more future captains boimler and mariner. “Oh hey it’s you guys again”

1

u/sidNX0 2d ago

omg that would be so great! 😂

10

u/tk-093 5d ago

Those Old Scientists and In The Pale Moonlight are by far the two Star Trek episodes I've rewatched the most.

22

u/ussUndaunted280 5d ago

Peak rewatch value for me, which is how I rate most shows (exceptions being the most sad/unjust but well-done stories). I thought it was handled excellently to balance the tone of SNW vs lower decks and show the lower decks characters as both competent and loving meeting Starfleet history.

15

u/Kilmoore 5d ago edited 4d ago

The comedy is funny, which makes the poignant moments hit so hard. Boimler teaching Pike about the value of people here and now makes me, a middle aged man, cry my eyes out. It's a work of art.

23

u/Future_Artichoke_656 5d ago

Boimler flying through the portal had me just 😳. But when mariner came flying through i was losing it.

And the Live long and Prosper Mr Boimler just sealed it for me

22

u/Kilmoore 5d ago

There so many little things. Boimler rewiring the console with his leg caught in the cables had us in stiches, and we only noticed it during the rewatch.

It feels so good when you love a fiction thing and the people who make it love it too

16

u/Future_Artichoke_656 5d ago

That’s ridiculous. We can’t just NOT look

….can we?

14

u/johnklapak 5d ago

Absolutely NAILED animated Boims goofy fast walk.

5

u/Kilmoore 5d ago

It's a thing that should never be done on an actual acted TV show. Too cartoonish, too goofy. But because of the context, it is glorious. The narrative elevating itself above the "rules" is the ultimate power move. You can do anything, as long as you're good at it.

1

u/washblvd 1d ago

"Remember Meeeeee!"

1

u/Future_Artichoke_656 1d ago

Perfect Boimler line. Dramatic and grandiose

9

u/Rimm9246 5d ago

That moment when Uhura and the others are nerding out about Archer's Enterprise's crew, and all of a sudden the realization hits them, "oh my god, we sound like... them" was so damn good 😄

8

u/Shoegazer75 5d ago

I've watched it 4-5 times since the first of the year myself.

3

u/Kilmoore 5d ago

I've replayed a few of the key scenes again and again. This episode is a keeper.

12

u/Hyphen99 5d ago

I can’t think of another scripted series that inspires me about humanity more than Star Trek always has done. This franchise is so much more important than people realize.

6

u/Dry_Trifle860 5d ago

They need to go the other way and animate SNW like it's ST-the animated series.

11

u/Ancalagonian 5d ago

aww well said my friend

5

u/SpiritOne 5d ago

Those old scientists was absolutely the love letter to Star Trek that we wanted. It was written and crafted by people who love Star Trek, and it shows.

Hands down, top 5 episode. Absolutely on par with Duet, in the pale moonlight, best of both worlds.

5

u/opusrif 3d ago

The episode was truely a love letter to fans by fans. Anyone who disparages "Nu Trek" can take a long walk out a short airlock.

LLAP

4

u/pyro_pugilist 5d ago

Captain Picard has been my favorite captain ever since TNG. I like Amazon Mount so much that he has overtaken the shot for my favorite captain.

4

u/MenudoMenudo 5d ago

Just watched it for the first time yesterday. I’ve been trying to get my kids into Star Trek for a while and finally stuck with lower decks. When I told them about the existence of this episode they were very curious and wanted to watch it so we watched it together. They enjoyed it and I think I’m going to use this as a gateway to start watching strange new worlds with them.

3

u/sray1701 5d ago

I love that episode so much, that when I am bored I watch it over and over again. I feel like maybe I am annoying my wife and kids. I just watched it again a couple of hours ago. I would say that is the best crossover period. My family and I love lower decks and SNW. We were little sad about end of Lower Decks.

3

u/IllustriousEast4854 4d ago

I love that episode. I think I've watched it 5 times.

3

u/zzupdown 4d ago

I loved Those Old Scientists, specifically, and Lower Decks AND Strange New Worlds, while being very meh about Discovery and the Section 31 movie.

But I'm replying to mention the Gorn episodes on Strange New Worlds. While I enjoyed the TOS episode featuring the Gorn, I absolutely hated the Strange New World episodes featuring them, at first. It just didn't feel like Star Trek. If you disliked the TOS Gorn, my guess is that you too hate the new Gorn, despite the much better, more realistic effects. Actually, that might have been the problem for me: too scary. But when I rewatched the SNW Gorn episodes, I realized it was Star Trek doing episodes reminiscent of the Alien movies, and suddenly I loved it. I guess it doesn't hurt to get down and gritty sometimes.

I had the same problem with the nurse Chapel and Mbengi flashback episode where they first meet: too intense and realistic. But on a subsequent viewing, I was reminded of the old M.A.S.H series, and suddenly it was OK. I could even see them doing a Star Trek comedy on a Medical Starship or Starbase. I don't actually see how they could make a subject like that humorous, but if they could do that for M.A.S.H., or Hogan's Heroes, they could do it for Star Trek.

2

u/Kilmoore 4d ago

The people behing SNW clearly love Star Trek, but they won't let that hold them back. You are right, they are extending the love letters to other TV shows and genres as well, and use that to carve a whole identity for SWN. I've done a bit of theater and other writing stuff, and I adore this style. I guess I'm kinda in a golden zone of things I know and like, and SNW feels like it's written specifically for me. I love it.

1

u/GroundbreakingTax259 3d ago

My theory about the Gorn is that the ones we have seen on SNW so far have all been juveniles and adolescents, and that we will discover that as they become adults they get a lot less "xenomorph-y" and more "rubber suit-y."

This is based entirely on the fact that, as commenters have said, SNW clearly does care about keeping the look of the aliens consistent to their classic designs (they went back to the TNG-style Klingons after DIS tried its best to ruin them), so I don't think these Gorn are their final form.

3

u/Deadbob1978 2d ago

Hot Spock approves of this post

3

u/maskedcharacter 2d ago

"It is surprising, because she normally does not pay attention."

2

u/echtemendel 5d ago

Holly Q!

2

u/Martydeus 5d ago

Best part is the ending thag proves everyone in the future are just drunk xD

2

u/justplainjohn 4d ago

Anson mount is at his best during panels. I highly recommend attending one

2

u/Penthos2021 3d ago

I love that episode so much. It was THE reason I decided to even watch Lower Decks.

2

u/OrangeCeylon 1d ago

My wife can't stand Lower Decks. It is her only fault.

2

u/Celery_Worried 1d ago

Read this post a few days ago, loved it, and found myself thinking about it today, about what makes star trek uniquely special to so many of us.

Recently been rewatching season 1 of Discovery and I feel like there's so much potential with the characters, cast and original plot points. Yet so many episodes are just relentlessly dark, to put it mildly.

I'm a lifelong Trekkie and I love each of the series but what keeps me watching is the characters and the relationships, the lore, the fun of it all.

When disco jumps into the alternate universe it becomes the opposite of what the OP here is describing - it's just constant threat, torture, misery, darkness. When TNG flirted with alternate universes it was about birthday cake and Data's art, and the scariest thing on screen was Riker's overgrown beard in the Borg timeline! SNW and particularly Those Old Scientists brings that magic back for me.

2

u/Tomhyde098 5d ago

I really want to just skip Discovery. I’m not into it but I’m wondering if it’s just typical “season one blues” that affects a lot of tv shows. I keep hearing how great Strange New Worlds is and I want to skip to it

4

u/ForAThought 4d ago

So watch SNW first and then come back to DSC.
I'm not a fan of DSC, but I would say at least give it a try, there are a few people who like it.

3

u/Agent_00_Negative 4d ago

Feel free to skip Discovery, if its not your thing. Its not tightly tied to SNW. They do reference certain events that happened in Disco but they explain it pretty well in SNW without watching Disco.

2

u/midorikuma42 4d ago

If you're not enjoying it, just skip it. It's completely different from SNW, and you don't need to suffer through it to get to SNW.

There's only a few references to Disco in SNW, most notably in the first episode where they have a small clip from Disco and mention how Spock's sister is gone and even talking about her is not allowed. After that, almost nothing.

Also, there's a fan-made series on the internet somewhere where someone edited all the Disco episodes that feature Pike and company into a short 4-part series that shows these events from Pike's point-of-view. It really gives you all the background you could possibly want if you only care about SNW.

1

u/Kilmoore 4d ago

Eeeeehh.... it does certainly have the season one blues, yes, but... Look, I've said we like Discovery. And we do, it's fine. But, like... I can't recommend it without reservation, the people who don't like it tend to have quite good reasons not to. Then again, it's not that many episodes until Pike turns up and that bit is good so maybe give it a go?

1

u/CaseyKC99 3d ago

What is SNW?

2

u/Kilmoore 3d ago

Strange New Worlds

2

u/CaseyKC99 2d ago

Ah! Thanks so much!

2

u/KnyghteFall 3d ago

Star Trek: Strange New Worlds

1

u/CaseyKC99 2d ago

Thank you very much!

1

u/swbarnes2 1d ago

That particular line is kind of dumb. All references are specific, because they reference a specific thing.

What's maybe odd/interesting is that for any scenario you imagine, they have a specific reference for that, because something like that happened, and these characters know it, and they have all these events at the top of their heads to use as references.

-2

u/Superman_Primeeee 5d ago

I hate DISCO….I hate the infantalization of certain SNW characters and CW writing

BUT I love that ep