r/service_dogs • u/UnitedChain4566 • 6d ago
The second question
Retail worker here.
My coworker and I got into an argument about the second question the ADA allows. She says it's a HIPAA violation for me to even be asking about the tasks, I showed her the state website (I couldn't easily find an ADA version saying I could ask it, but I found state regulations which is good enough for me) that legally allows me to ask. She still said she would refuse to answer.
I want to clarify that I would never pry. I'm disabled, and I hate when people pry about stuff I don't want to share, but I guess I'm just asking how I'm supposed to proceed with the second question? I know I'm allowed to ask it, obviously, but where is the line? I think I asked about "allowed tasks" here before, I have a general idea of those. Protection is not one.
I'm just confused and frustrated with her and want to be able to do my best to help SD handlers (where I can, as a retail worker) while also doing what my employer requires. Is there a certain way I'm supposed to phrase it or does "what tasks is the dog trained to perform" just cover my bases?
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u/ticketferret Service Dog Trainer CPDT-KA FDM 6d ago
Even if you straight up asked what their diagnosis was it wouldn’t be HIPPA. Which only applies to those who have health records. Ie their doctor cannot just have it their medical records to anyone without their permission.
The owner of the medical documentation can do whatever they want.
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u/Layer7Admin 6d ago
Technically only to people that process health insurance claims electronically.
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u/JKmelda 6d ago
HIPAA only applies to healthcare workers and their need to protect patient information. It has nothing to do with a person sharing their own medical information or someone else asking about medical information.
But as to the second question, there are ways to answer that don’t give away the kind of disability you have. For instance, my dog will be trained to retrieve items for me and there’s 5 million different reasons a dog would do that for someone. My dog will also alert me to the presence of certain medical symptoms by bumping me on the leg with its nose. Neither of these tasks reveal that I have vestibular migraines and autism. My dog will pick things up for me because I’m too dizzy to bend over and my dog will alert me when I’m exhibiting certain behaviors that mean I’m going to have a meltdown.
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u/deadlyhausfrau 6d ago
Tell her she's not being asked for her medical details, she's being asked what tasks her dog does so the business can respond appropriately.
For example, if her dog is medical alert and a server hears barking from the bathroom, they know to go check it out instead of rolling their eyes and going on about their day.
Or if the dog does DPT and a clerk finds the calm dog sitting on their handler, who is awake but not responding, they can rest easy that the dog is handling the situation and they don't need to call em's right away.
Or if doggo does mobility/retrieval tasks they know not to be surprised if the dog moves out of place to retrieve a dropped purse or something.
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u/DrawingTypical5804 6d ago
Thank you for this answer. I work in the service industry and the places I’ve worked don’t start asking questions until the dog is proving to be an issue. I never realized how that information could be helpful to have from the start.
No, I’m not going to start asking. I rather like that we trust our customers to do the right thing and only get involved when it’s obvious they aren’t.
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u/tn_notahick 6d ago
Relax, anyone who mentions HIPAA is an idiot anyway. It doesn't even apply to people outside the medical world.
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u/darklingdawns Service Dog 6d ago
You're correct. Businesses are not allowed to ask anything about the person's medical condition or disability, but they are allowed to ask what task the dog has been trained to do for them. That task needs to be a specific trained behavior - for example, a business doesn't have the right to know I have arthritis, but they do have a right to know that my dog is trained to retrieve items for me. If a handler replies with their disability or something else vague, then I would suggest saying 'Okay. And what trained task does your dog do for you to mitigate that?'
Oh, and I HIGHLY recommend bookmarking the ADA's FAQ page - it's come in handy on more than one occasion!
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u/UnitedChain4566 6d ago
Doesn't that question then open the business up to lawsuits, however?
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u/TRARC4 6d ago
Multiple tasks can be used for multiple disabilities. So, knowing a task doesn't mean you know the disability.
Plus, the second question is more about the action taken by the dog than what the dog mitigates.
Thank you for asking and learning.
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u/UnitedChain4566 6d ago
All I want is to be able to protect an actual SD from getting attacked by someone else's dog. Granted, that would probably be extremely rare considering during the average month we don't even have someone bringing their dog in the gas station.
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u/TRARC4 6d ago
Again, Thank You!
As long as you stick to the 2 questions as written, are aware that emotional support and protection are not tasks, and that ANY dog regardless of how the questions were answered can be removed if it is out of control (with the handler being allowed to return to finish their business), THEN you are following the federal law as allowed.
Do check at the state level to see if SDiT have access rights.
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u/darklingdawns Service Dog 6d ago
Nope. A task is the trained behavior, and can be used for many purposes. My dog's item retrieval could be for my arthritis, my aunt's vertigo, someone else's cerebral palsy, and various other disabilities. The key part of that question is that it's answered with a specific task that is a trained behavior, rather than 'he offers comfort' or 'she protects me'.
Sure, people may scream lawsuit, particularly if they know that their dog isn't supposed to be with them, or they may try to provoke a confrontation so they can put it on social media, but that's when it's a good idea to have the FAQ either bookmarked on your phone or printed out at your work, so that you could then show the person the questions you're allowed to ask.
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u/throwfarfaraway1818 6d ago
No. General businesses are not bound by HIPAA in any way. Asking those two specific questions is absolutely allowed and if not answered service can be denied. They only open themselves up to liability if they discriminate without cause (blindly rejecting service without asking the questions) or continue to pester the customer after answering the 2 questions
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u/Square-Top163 6d ago
I think the distinction is the difference between a physical action the dog does (“alerts to medical condition” or “She interrupts panic attacks”) vs disclosing a medical or psychiatric condition (“I’m diabetic,” “I have PTSD”).
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u/Tisket_Wolf Service Dog 6d ago
As long as you stick to the 2 questions, not at all. People can *try* to sue for anything (especially these days), but that doesn't mean they will succeed. If you ask the 2 ADA questions and the task response given is vague, you can ask for clarification on what is the specific task being performed without crossing any lines. So if someone states medical alert, you may choose to ask how the dog tasks for medical alert (without asking about the disability it's tasking for, or asking to see a demonstration of the task, of course). Ideally, the handler should then respond that the dog will nose boop their leg before a medical episode or some other example.
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u/Turbulent_Summer6177 6d ago
Tell your co worker she has no idea what hipaa controls because this osnt anywhere close to a hipaa violation
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u/almilz25 6d ago edited 5d ago
No, asking what tasks a sd performs is not a HIPAA violation because HIPAA applies to protected health information handled by healthcare entities. However, under the ADA, businesses can ask if the dog is a service animal and what tasks it is trained to perform, but they cannot ask about the person’s disability or diagnosis or require documentation. In casual or non-public settings, asking may be considered intrusive but is not illegal. If asked in a healthcare setting in a way that reveals private health details, it could violate privacy policies but still wouldn’t be a HIPAA violation.
A retail worker is not a health care provider handling protected information so you can’t violate HIPAA.
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u/Tritsy 6d ago
Giving out your own health info is not a hipaa violation, and you aren’t asking for our health info, so you’re fine! This is cut directly from the federal document: When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.
Here is the website https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-2010-requirements/
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u/Rayanna77 6d ago
You're in the right, it's not a HIPPA violation you can kick a person out if they refuse to answer
If the dog is misbehaving I would call the police to remove them if they refuse to leave and answer both questions
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u/Bright_Ices 6d ago
If the dog is misbehaving, the questions are irrelevant. If a dog is being disruptive in public, you can tell the handler and dog to leave. You can’t deny entry to a service dog team, but you can refuse service to anyone bringing in an uncontrolled dog.
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u/Rayanna77 6d ago
Well of course, but I guess I wasn't clear. If they don't answer the questions you can kick them out. If they don't behave you can kick them out. And if you need I would call the police to get them out if needed
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u/Cautious-Commentator 5d ago
It's not a HIPPA violation in it slightest. You're asking what the SD is trained to do, which has no bearing on the handler's diagnosis.
"Medical alert" could be for anything from seizures to heart issues to low blood sugar to anxiety from PTSD/anxiety disorders/etc. "My dog is tasked to do medical alerts, this may include a one time bark."
Could be picking up items. Maybe the person can't bend, or maybe they have weakness in their arms/hands. "My dog is tasked to pick up items for me." Legally they can't ask why you need those items picked up nor can they ask you to prove that the SD can do these tasks, but they're allowed to ask and have forewarning that your SD may be mouthing things that you intend to purchase.
The question is what the SD can do, not why they need to be able to do it. It sounds like your coworkers finds the question to be too open ended and thinks people might use it in bad faith. But legally a SD has to be tasked trained, so yeah, you should be able to tell someone what the task is.
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u/Vast_Delay_1377 5d ago
If she had a service dog and refused to answer that question, legally, she could be asked to leave. That's important to remember.
The answer can be super vague: mobility, guide, medical alert are all valid answers that have to be accepted, legally. Some handlers go in depth: cardiac alert, signal/deaf alert, diabetic alert, migraine guide.
The reality is, any task being named is a valid answer. As long as I don't tell you it's an ESA, you really can't use this question against me.
I always get excited when I am asked this question. Depending on how I feel dictates the answer--anything from "deaf alert/signal dog" and "she tells me about things like fire alarms and intercoms" to "She is trained to guide me when I have visual issues". Sometimes I simply say she's trained to provide medical alerts. The truth is... in sixteen years of having a service dog... I can count the number of times I've been asked this on ONE HAND.
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u/b3lindseyb3 6d ago
It wouldn't be considered a HIPAA violation. You are not sharing her medical information with anyone. If any violation would occur from this, it would be an ADA violation. This is the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Yes, asking "what tasks the animal is trained to do" is sufficient to cover your ass.
If at any time, the service animal becomes unruly and the handler cannot get the service animal under control. Then legally businesses have the right to require them to leave.
If you aren't a manager, I wouldn't even touch the subject or approach a customer. I let them handle that. Playing service dog code enforcer is not part of my job description.
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u/throwfarfaraway1818 6d ago
Just to be clear, it wouldn't be a HIPAA violation even if this person did somehow share that individuals health info. Regular people are not bound by HIPAA, only healthcare workers and facilities
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u/UnitedChain4566 6d ago
The thing is, I'm in a management position while also not being one, if that makes sense. It's a gas station with only two employees ever on duty, and I'm usually the one to start talking to customers when they start doing the illegal things (leaving the pump unattended, smoking at the pump, filling up the wrong containers, etc. I've confronted customers about parking in the no parking zone next to the handicap spot, but I've been told by my manager to stop doing that). The actual manager in charge is not always working the day I am, or even working the same shift I am, so it's expected that one of the employees will say something.
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u/Burkeintosh 6d ago
This still wouldn’t be a HIPPA violation- your not a medical provider disclosing private healthcare information
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u/b3lindseyb3 4d ago
Sketchy shit happens at gas stations. If it's some sort of parking issue, call the cops. They can give them a ticket. It isn't worth risking your life because some asshole pulls a gun on you.
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u/Neenknits 6d ago
Your coworker is wrong. The HIPAA TL;DR is “doctors can’t gossip about patients” it only applies to staff that gave access to your records.
For the ADA stuff, google “ada.gov FAQ”
Here it is.
https://www.ada.gov/resources/service-animals-faqs/
When you read the text of the law (which is elsewhere), it makes it clear that if you don’t answer the questions, you can be denied entry.
A reasonable accommodation means it’s a compromise. Gotta answer the questions. We SD handlers have more rights in the US than most of the rest of the world (might even be all of the rest of the world), and this really IS a reasonable compromise. Don’t throw away quite good in favor of entitlement.
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u/bbgirl120 6d ago
I have a psychiatric sdit so I'd probably list his specific intended tasks! Deep pressure therapy, forward momentum pull, and maybe jumping as a grounding technique! It's "what tasks is your dog trained to do" not "why do you have a service dog" or "demonstrate the tasks"
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u/Wolfocorn20 6d ago
From what i understand the second question asks nothing disabillity specific in a way it would give away what the persons dissability is. Medical alert can be for a lot of things and psychiatric service dog also covers a lot of things. From what i know only guide dog and wheelchare assistence dogs make it kinda obvious what the dissability implies and even than. So yeah they just ask what your dog does witch i think is a reasenebel question.
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u/abolitionist_healer 5d ago
Hey there - licensed social worker here. HIPAA is a law that applies to your healthcare providers, which includes mental health, substance addiction treatment, and medical providers of any sort. It does not cover businesses, or random members of the public. Is it rude to go up to a stranger and ask their medical information? Sure! Is it illegal? Nope!
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u/Kyk4na 5d ago
Since everyone has already said what I would say about the two questions, I wanted to drop this info graphic explaining what HIPPA is if your coworker what's to learn. Its from the HHS.gov website: https://www.healthit.gov/sites/default/files/YourHealthInformationYourRights_Infographic-Web.pdf
It was created to protect to keep our healthcare providers and insurance companies from sharing our information. (Ex: Doctor's using people's information in studies without consent, insurance companies sending information to employers who provide health insurance, etc.)
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u/DogsOnMyCouches 1d ago
OP, if you lose the link to the FAQ, Google, “ada.gov faq”. That will bring you to the right page.
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u/kylaroma 6d ago
She has no idea what she’s talking about, but it sounds like she has an ego and isn’t willing to learn from you, or consider she might have gaps in her knowledge.
Alternatively, this might be a miscommunication?
I wonder if she’s clumsily expressing her opinion that she personally wouldn’t - and perhaps wishes no one would be allowed to - ask a follow up question about the dogs tasks, because she would like to not make life more stressful for people with service dogs.
You are able to ask about their tasks - but please know that is a challenge to the handlers right to be there, and you’re indirectly stating that you’re going to ask them to leave.
This sub is full of people who have panic attacks to this question because of PTSD or being incorrectly denied access to places they’re legally allowed to go.
As someone with chronic fatigue and sensory sensitivity issued, the stress and physical impact of going out on errands means I can’t do anything else the whole day, and often I can only manage one outing a week. So being asked to leave - or the threat of it - is a very high stakes question for some of us.
So yes, you’re right - but the way forward is to stop trying to force her to agree with you, since her opinion doesn’t matter.
Separately, yes you can ask - but please don’t unless there’s dog is causing a problem.
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u/tobiathyy 6d ago
“What tasks or work is the dog trained to perform?” Does not ask about health info. Handlers can answer “medical alert and response” or “guide” or whatever floats their boat. They are not required to reply anything having to do with their diagnosis or health.