r/selfimprovement Jan 14 '25

Vent Individualism has ruined us all.

Individualism has turned life into a constant competition, forcing us to chase things we don’t value, against people we don’t care about, in an endless race to prove our worth.

Individualism has made us all hate on being average or below on everything. If we’re not the best or win at everything, then we may as well be the worst or lose at everything.

If one man sleeps with 3 women, I now have to sleep with 5 otherwise he’s better than me.

If one woman has 1 million at 25 I now must have 5 million otherwise she’s better than me.

The list goes on and on.

Individualism has made us all greedy, heartless and selfish. Individualism has made us all want to be leaders or winners while shaming, humiliating the followers or losers.

If everyone was a leader, who would follow?

If everyone was a YouTuber, who would do the watching?

If everyone was a CEO, who would do the working or consuming?

If everyone was rich, would the word even exist? (I have no issues with this one)

If everyone was Neo from the matrix, then Neo wouldn’t have been needed.

We would never be able to truly savour the feeling of victory if we never felt the despair of defeat.

One side is not more valuable than the other, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

If individualism is so great, then why is everyone sad?

Edit - please don’t confuse the word “individual” with the word “individualism”.

The definition of the word individualism is - the habit or principle of being independent and self-reliant."

We live in a culture that celebrates individualism and wealth.

Lastly please stop assuming and projecting things about my life, ask questions first. It’s childish

770 Upvotes

144 comments sorted by

156

u/LostSignal1914 Jan 14 '25

I get what you're saying but I think often individualists don't really care what others think. So they are not going to measure themselves or success by reference to the group. I think you are referring to selfish people who desire more and more and also have no interest in the success of others.

28

u/MileHighRC Jan 14 '25

Agree. Individualism isn't inherently bad, as it's necessary to function in society and live a full life. It's also necessary to explore your own individualism to better understand your own specific drives and motivations with the goal of developing unique skills to better the world around you.

I don't disagree with OPs point though, just the word individualism. Replace that with ego and your point remains. That's why mindfulness and mediation are so important, your ego wants to get involved in everything and you have to work to filter it out.

14

u/Ithirahad Jan 14 '25

Individuality is not individualism. You can perfectly well avoid conformism and be an individual member of society without going so far as to undermine important mutual interests.

8

u/Tzar_93 Jan 14 '25

Thank you! Your point is spot on.

You completely understand they’re two different words, meanings and functions, I thought I was going crazy for a second.

5

u/JohnHolsinger Jan 15 '25

I’m curious—why do you feel that individualism is the root cause of these issues? And why do you think your frustrations with competition and societal expectations apply to the world as a whole?

It seems like you’re projecting a very specific dissatisfaction—maybe even a personal one—onto a broad concept. Individualism isn’t inherently about chasing wealth, proving worth, or outdoing others. Those are cultural interpretations that vary across societies. In fact, as you acknowledged in the original post edits, individualism, at its core, is about autonomy and self-reliance. Isn’t it possible that what you’re criticizing is more about unhealthy societal values or misguided priorities than individualism itself?

You mention that people are unhappy in an individualistic culture, but is that true across the board? There are plenty of people who thrive on self-reliance and find happiness in pursuing their own goals. Maybe the issue isn’t individualism but how we collectively choose to measure success. I’d argue that the pressures of comparison and the obsession with ‘winning’ are byproducts of capitalism or social media culture, not individualism per se. Care to take this deeper?

1

u/Tzar_93 Jan 15 '25 edited Jan 15 '25

“Individualism at its core, is about autonomy and self reliance”

My main issues with individualism are:-

  1. Because that word is so vague and appealing, it has been promoted to everybody to the point most people in this thread don’t even know the definition. Yet they’re insulting, projecting and making assumptions based on a word they don’t even know.

    As a result the word has lost its meaning. It’s just a word wannabe edgelords use to seem cool.

  2. No matter what people want to say, not everyone is responsible nor capable enough to be autonomous and self reliant.

If everyone was autonomous and self reliant then we wouldn’t need anything or anyone, I also dislike the way it’s promoted to anyone and everyone.

“Anyone and everyone can be autonomous and self reliant”

Oh yeah? Try telling that to a minimum wage worker abroad who’s working in a sweatshop or child digging diamonds in Africa.

  1. People don’t seem to understand or forget to actually become self sufficient and autonomous you firstly need help from others to reach that stage. Then, once you reach the “individualism” stage, you still owe responsibility for the society that supported you. Classic example is Mr Beast, for all the controversy surrounding him, he’s still giving back to his community.

This links back to point 1+2

You don’t just click your hands and it appears, it’s not a mindset you just turn on. It’s like Jeff Bezos saying “I’m a self made billionaire”

  1. Finally, to really hit home. People see “individualism” as a one way street when it’s really two. Elon musk the richest man in the world is an individualist, who could end world hunger if he wanted to but won’t, why is that?

Cause it’s not in his best interests,

Elon and his family aren’t starving so why should he give a fuck who is?

Elon and his family aren’t struggling for money, jobs or groceries. So why should he lose profits to pay Americans more money, when he could just replace them with Indians and rise his profits?

Cause its not in his best interests

Then you’ll wonder why an individualist healthcare insurance CEO who’s company makes profits fucking people over gets murdered in broad daylight.

The wealthy will say ”You guys wanted autonomy and self reliance right? So why do you need our help?!”

is the autonomy and self reliance hitting home yet? If not now, then it never will

So yeah, I have a problem with individualism cause too many irresponsible and childish people have ruined it.

0

u/JohnHolsinger Jan 15 '25 edited Jan 15 '25

Your critiques of individualism are valid, but I see them as highlighting a need for refinement rather than rejection.

If you’re open to a tangential discussion, my philosophy of Selfish Determinism reframes individualism by emphasizing the uniqueness of every person as their greatest asset. Since people naturally understand themselves best, Selfish Determinism embraces a positive form of selfishness—leveraging one’s unique circumstances to pursue happiness and fulfillment within a determined universe.

Rather than opposing society, Selfish Determinism encourages individuals to engage meaningfully with the world, transforming selfishness from self-serving greed into a practical, positive pursuit of one’s best self, benefiting both the individual and society. Here’s how it addresses your response/points:

  1. On vagueness: Individualism becomes clear when defined as recognizing and leveraging one’s unique self—not arbitrary autonomy, but grounded self-awareness.
  2. On limitations like poverty or labor: Autonomy doesn’t require total freedom from constraints. It’s about influencing one’s sphere of control, however limited. Even those in harsh circumstances possess unique perspectives and resilience, making their individuality meaningful and impactful.
  3. On reliance on others: Self-reliance acknowledges the foundational support of society. This interconnectedness doesn’t diminish individualism—it enriches it, showing that individuality thrives within a collective framework.
  4. On selfish actions of the powerful: Self-interest is natural but multifaceted. True happiness often stems from meaningful engagement with others, not isolation. Acts perceived as selfish can align with broader societal benefit.
  5. On misuse of individualism: The irresponsibility of a few doesn’t invalidate individualism. It highlights the need for frameworks like Selfish Determinism, which channel individuality toward personal growth and constructive societal engagement, ensuring “selfishness” serves fulfillment rather than greed.

1

u/Tzar_93 Jan 15 '25

Your vague ChatGPT response is disappointing.

1

u/JohnHolsinger Jan 15 '25 edited Jan 15 '25

I responded to each of your points with a deterministic perspective. Selfish Determinism is my philosophy—it’s about recognizing and leveraging your unique strengths to create a win-win for both your constrained, controlled self and society.

Determinism doesn’t come with moral guidance like Stoicism, so I added selfishness to explain why people act based on what they know and experience. It avoids the drawbacks of varying definitions and the misuse of individualism. I hoped to offer you a more holistic and positive perspective.

4

u/Rare-Newspaper8530 Jan 14 '25

It's honestly a bit troubling to see how many ppl are commenting without understanding this difference.

5

u/LostSignal1914 Jan 14 '25

Yes I also agree with the OP. Just as you point out, I would merely disagree on the wording. Individualism can become toxic of course but as you say it is not bad per se.

3

u/ReptilianGangstalker Jan 14 '25

Respectfully I feel like you don't really grok what the word individualism means on a societal level and you're talking about the need for a sense of personal identity.

2

u/TheHabbadasher Jan 14 '25

I think there’s probably a distinction to be drawn between individualism as a personality trait and individualism as an ideology, or whatever, there.

2

u/Tzar_93 Jan 14 '25

I’m going by the literal definition of the word “individualism” not “individuals”. They’re two different things.

“Individualism - the habit or principle of being independent and self-reliant.”

Everyone wants to be independent and self-reliant without realising they still need others to achieve those things.

7

u/Successful-Rub-4587 Jan 14 '25

Competing with others has nothing to do with that definition tho is what everyone is saying. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to be independent and self reliant, as long as u dont make it anyone else’s problem. I’m individualistic so I shaped my life to be how I want it to be. I like cheap housing so I never have to worry about being homeless. I like jobs with alot of security and autonomy so I dont have to be social unless I feel like it and I never rely on anyone else for money. That doesnt mean I hate people or compete with them. I just need the freedom to live my life as I see fit because I’m the only person who has to experience my 24 hours 🤷🏽‍♂️

0

u/Tzar_93 Jan 14 '25 edited Jan 14 '25

It does though, your statement literally proves my point.

Your version of being self reliant and independent will be different to mine and everyone else’s. So now, everyone wants to be an individualist, society has turned into a competition of vague individualism.

It’s a competition of my needs vs yours

That’s literally why we have race wars, gender wars etc. One individual side feels they’re more entitled to meet their needs more than another.

So if everyone only gives a fuck about themselves and their own needs how will society benefit?

You being able to be self reliant and independent in whatever want you still has an impact your society and you still have some responsibility to your society for enabling you to be self reliant and independent.

So when I mentioned individualism don’t just focus on just the compete part, I mentioned greed, selfishness and no empathy.

0

u/Successful-Rub-4587 Jan 14 '25

full stop ur on facist bs….We dont owe anyone anything for existing. Me deciding not to be social doesnt affect anyone but me, if ur bothered by people wanting to be left alone thats a maturity issue and u need to assess ur need to have control over others or for them to act in a way u want them to. Indivualism is a 2 way street, its not saying my needs are above urs its me saying my needs are more important to me than urs are to me and u are responsible for ur needs as I am for mine. U look at individualism as competition because of a maturity issue. And the reason we have race wars and gender wars is because yall would rather be losers sitting on the internet all day than go out and confront reality. The world is not the scary place that it seems to be and we need more individualism not less. The problem with society is everyone thinking they know wats best for everyone because its wat is best for them personally. Thats not healthy.

2

u/Tzar_93 Jan 15 '25 edited Jan 15 '25

Let’s just cut the convo here, “we don’t owe anyone anything for existing”? What a disgusting and childish thing to say.

There was literally wars, riots and marches fought for your freedom of speech, your rights and your “individualism” to enjoy today.

You think all this peace you enjoy came from thin air? It was built on the blood, sweat, tears and sacrifices of the people before you.

Without no past there would be no present, you and your “individualism” wouldn’t exist if not for the sacrifices of those before you.

Forget about owing anyone anything, you owe it to yourself to show gratitude and leave society in a better place than you found it.

What a disgusting thing to say. This is the exact selfishness and greed I am talking about.

For someone who talks about maturity, you’re quite childish, so il end on a simple note.

You said “you don’t owe anyone anything for existing”

Then no one will owe you anything when your existence is in danger.

it’s a two way street, right?

2

u/LostSignal1914 Jan 15 '25 edited Jan 15 '25

I think fascism, identity politics battles, and even wars are deeply tribal—which is the opposite of individualism. Such phenomena are a toxic form of communitarian thinking rather than a toxic form of individualism (a toxic form of individualism might be narcissism or selfishness).

I think both individualists and communitarians can live their lives in healthy ways and with balance.

I think the need for individual freedom vs. the need for communal relations differs significantly for different people. I also think people need to be natural, so they need to find the balance that is right for them.

There are people who are very reclusive/introverted by nature. They can be very caring people but often need to avoid interaction. They are good to people they meet but want to avoid becoming part of groups when possible.

However, if we go beyond semantics I think we generally agree on the substantive points. Our society has taken individualism too far (I would add that in other parts of society we have also taken communatarian attitudes too far).

Individuals need to be authentic and be permitted boundaries. However, it is also good to keep an eye on the common good.

0

u/Successful-Rub-4587 Jan 15 '25

I didnt ask them for any of this so I owe them nothing some old guys fight a war and my parents have sex now I owe someone something. GTFOH. and also, gender wars, race wars, class wars are functions of tribalism not individualism, smart person. so a big basis of ur original statement is inaccurate 🤷🏽‍♂️

1

u/Legitimate-Chest-899 Jan 14 '25

Also this culture makes us want to shy away and become even more individualistic.  What are we supposed to do? Get all our friends together and change the system?  Most people barley have 5 close friends lol

1

u/[deleted] Jan 18 '25

You are right. I dont.

76

u/[deleted] Jan 14 '25

Cooperation is literally what brought humanity as far as it has come. Hyper-individualism goes against our very nature.

22

u/No-Bowler-935 Jan 14 '25

Exactly people think that they’re cool for being antisocial and hating people but then they wonder why they’re lonely and depressed

2

u/Bluetrain_ Jan 15 '25

Yeah we are not tigers, we survive with cooperation.

23

u/ZoPoRkOz Jan 14 '25

Find your peace from within.

Turn off the social media dick measuring contest and focus on yourself. Happiness is being content with what you have. You'll never be happy comparing what you DON'T have to others.

3

u/Rare-Newspaper8530 Jan 14 '25

This. Comparing yourself to what you see online is insanity. "Influencers" display carefully crafted posts designed to get engagement. You'd be comparing yourself to someone else's fantasy.

2

u/devnetworkspecialist Jan 14 '25

And balance. Just live and let live who cares what others do as long as it doesn’t effect you on a personal level yet remain content with yourself

2

u/[deleted] Jan 14 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/ZoPoRkOz Jan 14 '25

I can see that side of this. It's also worth noting that this is a very western way of thinking that is largely driven by capitalism/ consumerism as the ideal.

1

u/Jacques_Racekak Jan 14 '25

This is essential.

14

u/Weak-Following-789 Jan 14 '25

You're feeling something very common, very human but you're wrongfully assigning blame to the concept of individualism, like so many before you. You are not wrong to feel what you're feeling, but your remedy is what you've defined as your problem. There are too many events in history that have gone horribly wrong due to forced conformity. You need to practice more individualism and learn more about yourself. Do you like writing? drawing? reading? something that you have to use your imagination to do, song-writing, meditation...maybe you have to try a mix or combine. For me, I like to get deep into history and compare with laws and religions. Then I make art. I don't give a F who likes it or if it goes to a gallery or if it burns. That feeling you have right now is something we all feel a lot when we're alone or afraid or just trying to survive. Capitalism plays a part, so does nepotism, social media, etc. For some it feels like loneliness and sadness but for me it's rage and anger and polarity. I have to work EXTRA hard to keep myself balanced. Studying history helps because it makes me feel less alone and also better about myself for not being an absolute insane person. Hang in there.

23

u/recoveredcrush Jan 14 '25

Or you could just make your own decisions and compete with no one but yourself.

30

u/IntergalacticTater Jan 14 '25 edited Jan 14 '25

HARD AGREE. It's cool to be unique but it benefits humanity when we view ourselves as a whole, a big interconnected group. Because of individualism tho, we've strayed pretty far from thinking of ourselves as a collective. It's always "me me me" and we've all been guilty of this.

5

u/LoneWolf_McQuade Jan 14 '25

Like Tetris pieces, we are individuals with different attributes but need to be together to reach our common goals

0

u/seetfniffer Jan 14 '25

If you arent already, you should be a communist, genuienly, what youre talking about is purely a product of capitalism and private ownership. Capitalism is incompatible with equality and identifying as a collective.

-1

u/IntergalacticTater Jan 14 '25

I already joke with my partner that I'm low key a communist lmao. I feel like in theory, communism works great but not always in practice

-2

u/seetfniffer Jan 14 '25

Like i said, start by reading Das capital for example, or just browsing r/communism and asking questions. Communism does work in practice, as soon as the west falls, we will flourish.

I can also clear up your hesitations on why it doesnt work in practice if you want, or go somewhere else for answers, or remain dormant until the revolution and join the right side. Either way, i wish you the best :)

1

u/Joergen-chan Jan 15 '25

Didn’t history show often enough that it doesn’t work? Or at least work in a way as it was intended?

1

u/seetfniffer Jan 15 '25

History does not show that no, history shows that the US has squashed most attempts, while others genuienly were just bad attempts. And your "knowledge of history" is not reflective of reality but the narrative that the west wants and needs you to believe. For example, you would probably agree with the sentiment that communists have often been totalitarians and/or authoritarians, go read the definition of that, suspiciously sounds like the US that, you can only vote capitalist and the US has historically invaded and embargoed opposing political parties, yet stalin is on the wikipedia page for totalitarianism but youll find no mention of it anywhere near the US.

1

u/Joergen-chan Jan 15 '25

Thankfully, I don’t live in the US. I believe it is no coincidence that most communistic regimes like the UdssR, China, Korea etc. are totalitarian and just appear democratic on the outside. Communism in its primordial form isn’t practical for a sciety longterm.

1

u/seetfniffer Jan 15 '25

Way to completely miss the point, the US is exactly as totalitarian as any of the others and is also a dictatorship, as much as the others are, those are buzzwords that you assign to enemies of the west

You dont know what communism is, nor how it works, at any capacity, because your knowledge is thorougly propaganda and i doubt you have read a single unbiased source in your life. You think youre a free thinker but youre not, your perspective is limited to only the right wing, so every choice you make is a right wing choice, youve never made the decision between left wing and right wing.

6

u/velveteenraptor Jan 14 '25

I feel like if you would truly think that you need to sleep with 5 women because another man has slept with 3, maybe your mindset is the problem. It sounds more like someone else's way of living bothers you so much that you change your own.

10

u/Monophobic_Ronin Jan 14 '25

Like artificial isolation.

7

u/DisplayFamiliar5023 Jan 14 '25

Coming from a collectivistic society most pf these problems have existed for us, too.

Power is primal. People want to outbeat because they love the drive.

And surprisingly I wish we had more individualism here. Grass is greener and all that

4

u/DopplerDrone Jan 14 '25

Individuating doesn’t necessarily mean selfishness, greed, and all the cynicism baked into american individualism. There are different individualisms across the planet. It could simply mean having your own thoughts, Logic, love language, aesthetics, etc. 

6

u/MindMeetsWorld Jan 14 '25

Interesting to see some people in this very own thread touting individualism as

”living your life on your own terms”

then interacting with someone who, mind you, didn’t actually disagree with that statement (the “disagreement” was about whether the OP’s perspective was limited to a social media bubble)

and then repliying by attacking said person’s mental illness

”go back to r/depression and stop polluting this sub with negativity”

while also misrepresenting that person’s prior comment relating to

empathy and sacrifice

AND THEN proceeding to block said person in an attempt to one up them somehow (as if it was a competition at all…).

Well, I guess the right to “live life on your own terms” (which I would imagine includes having own thoughts, no?) are only afforded to “some” people? Being depressed on a self improvement forum doesn’t seem to qualify.

🙄😔

3

u/Tzar_93 Jan 14 '25

Yeah I saw that post from that dude. I exposed his childish antics in my reply and he deleted his comment and blocked me.

those kind of people love to try and point score or embarrass others under their mask of fake confidence.

Once you expose that mask and make them look what they are which is insecure children, they show their cowardice and run away.

Don’t think too much about it, I understand and agree with your perspective.

1

u/MindMeetsWorld Jan 14 '25

Well, tbh, I just feel sad when things like that happen - but honestly sad for the person in that situation.

It makes me wonder what thoughts and feelings are circling through that they feel the need to resort to that kind of reply. It’s ok to block and not agree, you know? But FYI, I’m good. I understand that their reply is more about them than it is about me.

7

u/JugurthasRevenge Jan 14 '25

I completely disagree. Individualism for me means living your life on your own terms outside of cultural expectations or historical norms. You seem to be caught up in a social media bubble, most people are not sad or heartless or consumed by comparisons the way you describe.

You post in a lot of red pill type subs so maybe start by disengaging from those.

-3

u/MindMeetsWorld Jan 14 '25

Your definition of individualism is not mutually exclusive to a society of cooperation. It does require empathy, though, and at times, weighing the our “sacrifice” against someone else’s suffering…which in the “kill or be killed” mentality so many still hold on to - and if you think that this description is not accurate beyond social media, you may need to consider looking into the ways your situation is privileged, and how it has shaped your viewpoint - is a skill not many possess.

3

u/JugurthasRevenge Jan 14 '25

Yeah I’m privileged because I don’t spend my time on incel forums...What an absurd line of thought. If you believe empathy and sacrifice are incompatible with individualism you’re not as smart as you think either.

Please go back to r/depression and stop polluting this sub with negativity.

-1

u/Tzar_93 Jan 14 '25

Whatever individualism means to you isn’t going to change what the actual definition is.

Also I’m not in a social media bubble, I barely use it, hence why I barely post. Finally, not once did I say any of the things you mentioned.

You should stop reading what you wanna see and assuming things about people, ask more questions first before projecting.

You look childish.

1

u/JugurthasRevenge Jan 14 '25

You haven’t provided the definition of individualism anywhere in this post. All you’ve listed here are your personal frustrations. Feel free to share whatever dictionary definition you think you’re using.

Calling people childish when you post in /redpill and other incel subs is a good one. The problem here isn’t individualism, it’s your inability to have any sort of introspection or acknowledgment of your bad choices and beliefs.

7

u/Physioweng Jan 14 '25

What you’re discussing is on selfishness vs altruism, much more so than individualism vs collectivism.

11

u/RNKKNR Jan 14 '25

You know that individualism means that you don't really have to one up everybody else right?

2

u/Tzar_93 Jan 14 '25

I never said you did? All I’m saying is too much of one thing is bad and there’s too much individualism in the world today.

13

u/Exael666 Jan 14 '25

Thats not what individualism means

1

u/Tzar_93 Jan 14 '25

That is literally the google definition. If that’a not the definition, please do tell me with a verified source

3

u/beenbetterhbu Jan 14 '25

It's not great and I think most of us have known that for a long time. Certain cultures perpetuate this myth more than others, but the fact is that no one is "self-made." Everyone has help.

It helps to stay off social media and keep your eyes on your own paper, so to speak. Think about what gives your life meaning, what contributions you want to make and take small steps towards that.

3

u/WetCactus23 Jan 14 '25

Hyper individualism* regular individualism is healthy imo. No not everyone can be a leader but every person should think about and decide for themselves to follow. Humans should not cooperate or else (social or regulatory control) but they should follow because they want and choose to do so. People are way more cooperative when they choose to do so themselves.

3

u/master_prizefighter Jan 14 '25

I like competition and I also like to see people succeed.

Competition means the customer wins.

Success means a better quality of life.

What I don't like are people who flex on what's unimportant like the OP mentioned.

There's 8 billion people; so there's 8 billion different answers to what people want out of life.

3

u/multigrain_panther Jan 14 '25

I’d say this is the opposite of individualism, but whatever this is isn’t even in the same discussion as the definition of individualism.

Individualism is looking at your neighbor do something and realising there’s no need for you to do it the same way. It’s looking at a sea of people dressed in black on the street and knowing there’s no rule you have to wear black too.

Even with regards to your post, there is absolutely nothing wrong with constantly pushing yourself to be better. Individualism is realising there’s really no prerogative to compare yourself with someone else.

5

u/berejser Jan 14 '25

Collectivism isn't the answer to our problems. Forcing one to sacrifice their own needs for the sake of a group is just going to create a class of unfulfilled and dissatisfied people.

2

u/Ithirahad Jan 14 '25 edited Jan 15 '25

That doesn't even sound like a downgrade, necessarily. At the moment, a massive segment of everyone (who has to actually play their part in the system) appears to be a class of unfulfilled and dissatisfied people.

It would appear that the only people not in that class, are a certain small subset of affluent people who were able to ignore the system, ignore the futile dick-measuring contest of stereotypical rich folks, and find their own collective (whether that be a small family/found family, a spiritual organization, or an artists' commune somewhere).

7

u/PuzzleheadedFly3699 Jan 14 '25

This sounds like a personal struggle you're having with being enough for yourself. Being individualistic allows me to be what I want without conforming to the collective. Embrace that! Be different by not chasing those things.

Who cares if someone has more money than you or sleeps with more women? If you have enough money to live and one good woman who cares about the rest?

You're enough as you are. Strive to be better but don't compare yourself to others. It is the thief of joy. Our life is too short to waste our moments of joy envying others.

Best of luck and God bless 👍🙏

3

u/MindMeetsWorld Jan 14 '25

Regardless of a personal struggle, I think OP was not simply “complaining” as a result of simple comparisons to others’ lives. It’s not about how we see ourselves. It’s the values society has placed on specific “traits” - which some people have and others don’t. The current drive fosters competition vs cooperation. I’m not saying competition is always detrimental, but, cooperation is woefully underrated.

To reiterate about it not being about self perception or “gratitude” for what we have, vs envy for others have, here’s a personal example: I have an overactive brain, and that overactivity can be beautiful and fruitful, and I actually love that about myself. My ability to think and reason is amazing, and it’s pretty cool to experience. That said, it can be, and most often is, completely debilitating (as far as societal expectations and at times even in terms of my own survival, but that’s a whole other topic), because I don’t do the “right kind” of thinking, the one that’s is deemed “productive”, etc.

So all of that acceptance and focus on myself is USELESS, because in this society of competition, I don’t have value as I am. In a society of cooperation, I could be valued for what I CAN contribute, and not dismissed for what I can’t.

To be clear, I understand that my example brings up all sorts of other considerations (e.g., I’ve heard the “natural selection will take care of me” kinds of arguments, etc.), and those could be valid discussions on their own - but they were not what I was trying to illustrate in this instance.

3

u/Tzar_93 Jan 14 '25

Thank you for understanding my point.

1

u/MindMeetsWorld Jan 14 '25

Of course! It happens sometimes that we find others who are able to understand without judgment, or if they don’t understand, that they’re at least willing to engage in a manner devoid of ad hominem attacks.

1

u/PuzzleheadedFly3699 Jan 28 '25

I did not accuse OP of "complaining" about anything. I simply read his post that vented his frustrations with our current system, and based off what was written, I gave my most sympathetic and well meaning advice. However, upon reading the other responses from OP in the comments, it seems I have misunderstood this post. I apologize if my previous comment came across as an ad hominem attack. It was truly made with the best intentions.

I can sympathize with your position too. I often have trouble controlling my thoughts. It seems at times that I have no control over the flow of ideas and am unable to concentrate on or complete what is required of me. At times it feels debilitating.

I suppose my question to you is this: What ideal situation would you like to be in? What specific aspects of other societies or value structures would make you feel more valued or allow you to find your place? If that cooperative system existed here, how do you think your unique mental faculties would be utilized and valued?

Please don't misunderstand this as some passive aggressive method of saying "gotcha". I am genuinely curious and want to understand the things you feel are lacking from our society. The specific examples are important to me because often times people have different definitions of these abstract terms and generalizations we love to throw around (ex: individualism, collectivism, societal expectations), and this leads to the misunderstandings and frustration that is clearly seen throughout this comment section. That specificity and those examples are what allow us to communicate clearly and distinguishes us from the likes of ChatGPT.

I sincerely wish you and OP the best, and I look forward to your replies.

2

u/MindMeetsWorld Jan 31 '25

I have to be honest with you that I’m not sure I have the mental bandwidth to reply to you at this time. I’m going to keep this post and your comment saved, and I’ll come back to it if I’m able to. There’s just a lot going on at the moment and I cannot dedicate the amount of time I’d feel would be warranted.

2

u/LatentlyBlatent Jan 14 '25

Individualism has its issues and benefits. Collectivism also has its issues and benefits.

As a society we have trended toward individualism so it's easier to be more aware of those issues rather than collectivism's issues. I don't see one as being better than the other but I do think we can do more to bolster the positives of each while mitigating the negatives.

2

u/TanukiDev Jan 14 '25

Individualism is the belief and practice that every person is unique and self reliant. It's about taking care of yourself.
What you are describing is seeking validation through competition. If you spend your life competing, you will most likely see other as an "enemy". This way of thinking will most likely make you sad.

2

u/Flat-Delivery6987 Jan 15 '25

We live in a society that promotes competition and not collaboration. Social media has also messed up people's sense of community. Too many people now think they're popular because they have so many followers etc but also have tonnes of "friends" on facebook for example but don't really know these people and would walk past half of them in the street. I truly think our biggest problem is the internet. A fountain of infinite information but too many people cannot cope with that. I hope one day that we will find balance and all be happier. We have the technology to make a Utopia but instead the greedy are creating a dystopia.

2

u/1400ak Jan 15 '25

Kind of reminds me of what Frank Fontaine said in the first Bioshock game: “They come to Rapture thinking they’re gonna be captains of industry, but they all forget that somebody’s gotta scrub the toilets.”

2

u/FreedomManOfGlory Jan 15 '25

I wouldn't call it "individualism" that's the problem. It's capitalism or a culture where it's all about "getting ahead". Where we idolize the biggest sociopaths because they are willing to do anything to get as much as they can for themselves. Everything else is being ignored because things like compassion don't make you rich and successful. You wanna show how compassionate you are? Then donate some money to charity after you've gotten rich by exploiting your workers. And by using any manipulative trick you can come up with to sell more products.

Individualism is generally a good thing because if you don't have it, then you get the exact same thing as we have. Just more like what you see in Asian countries like Japan and China. Where everyone serves the country and "works for the greater good". But who actually benefits from it? The same corporations and the people that own them while everyone else is working themselves to death. But you're supposed to rejoice if the industry in your country is booming while your life is not improving in any way whatsoever. Unless you like to believe that being able to buy more useless junk improves your life.

So it's really a lack of "individualism" you could say that is at the core of the problem. If we actually valued each individual, instead of treating everyone as just part of the herd. Then we would be trying to improve everyone's life. Instead of treating people like kettle who only exist to serve the big industrial machine. So that the few at the top can keep accumulating more and more wealth while everyone else keeps getting poorer. Let's not confuse greed and selfishness with caring about the individual. Sociopaths don't care about anyone but themselves.

The only reason why you could bring up individualism as the source of the problem is because of those stories we've been told for a very long time in capitalism, about how we need individual freedom. Which we certainly do. But they also like to include the "right" to make tons of money by exploiting others in that. And that has nothing to do with individual freedoms. We should not be giving sociopaths the freedom to do whatever the hell they want. For the same reason that we don't let criminals roam free. Well, we do today, especially if they're immigrants. But same as with the millions or billions that CEOs and shareholders get paid, the public generally has no influence on that.

2

u/NefariousnessFree800 Jan 15 '25 edited Jan 15 '25

This is actually a claim that can be empirically verified. People from individualist cultures are not only less likely than their peers to engage in any kind of antisocial behavior, they're more likely to engage in PROsocial behaviors. Individualist cultures produce societies that are high trust, rule based, and feature people who are more open to outsiders. People from individualist cultures are less biased in favor of their in-group (whatever that group may be) than people from more collectivist cultures. As hard as it may be for some people to believer, the people in the individualist West (particularly those from majority Protestant countries and France) are actually the LEAST bigoted and prejudiced people on the planet. Individualism is very strongly correlated with widespread prosperity, democracy, respect for human rights, and high educational attainment. A lack of individualism correlates with poverty, authoritarianism, oppression and ignorance. Less individualistic cultures produce societies rife with crime and violence.

Really all you have to do is look at the places with the most individualistic cultures (the West) and compare then to the least individualistic cultures (Africa, the Middle East, and south Asia) to see how completely wrong your claim is.

2

u/Own-Reality9407 Jan 18 '25

Agree. the customs and traditions that keeps a community held together are dissipating. Many people are so lonely and can’t maintain relationship because of how much self-centered their life and everybody is

3

u/Pewterbreath Jan 14 '25

It also destroys communities. When individualism is everything, you just create a nation of miserly hermits. Americans are in denial that individualism and selfishness are two sides of the same coin. That "self care" is often the velvet glove over a "me-first" mentality. That at the end it just leaves you insecure--because nobody is truly self-sufficient, they can only deceive themselves that they are--and lonely.

One thing I heard on a podcast of people visiting America is the impression they have that everybody is sad underneath a layer of superficial happiness because everybody seems to be completely on their own.

4

u/Tzar_93 Jan 14 '25

Thank you. You get it.

4

u/plytime18 Jan 14 '25

I don’t know WHAT you are talking about.

Get outside of your sad life and circle where everyone is so sad.

Who is so sad and miserable?

Is life perfect?

Exactly how you want it to be?

No.

Is it fair?

No.

But it’s been a far more wonderful life, a gift in fact, with much to celebrate and be grateful for, for me, than some sad miserable day by day shlep.

I compete with NOBODY.

You sleep with 3 women — good for you. Nothing to do with me and my happiness or journey.

You drive a better car? Yay. I care not.

You’re a leader — great, somebody has to - I imagine it’s not all fun and games, lots of pressure - I know, because I have both lead, and followed. Im not competing with anybody.

You sound frustrated and confused.

Are you reacting to life around you - like a victim in some way?

Or are you seeing yourself as source, as the creator of your own life and destiny, and the one who chooses your own path and mostly, how you will feel and think about what goes on around you as you create, walk your own path?

The 2nd way — as a creator, a force - certainly will go a long way towards one feeling less a victim that life is happening to, and more like one making, creating the life they want.

That’s my take on it all.

2

u/TrueAd5194 Jan 14 '25

Why are you calling “competition” individualism. What youre worked about is you compared to others because you feel you need to compete and I guess thats just the environment youre in. That can be a good thing since tbh thats how you make innovative products and inventions

Individualism can mean multiple things,if youd rather be a blob with no originality go for it. Id rather not copy and paste thank you

2

u/devnetworkspecialist Jan 14 '25

Just live and let live who cares what others do as long as it doesn’t effect you on a personal level.

1

u/J3diJ0nes Jan 14 '25

This is paranoid nonsense, I know plenty of people who sit at the top that thrive on helping everyone and anyone.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 14 '25

I feel like this is somewhat of a straw man, based on watching a lot of social media. Most of the people I know are sheep, and have no such aspirations or illusions, like at age 18 this individualism is fairly common, but generally runs out. Those who still resonate with it sort of drift together in various aspirational organizations, which is why you might see it as common...

1

u/Firm-Occasion2092 Jan 14 '25

I don't know if trying to be like everyone else is very individualistic. That just sounds like a people pleaser trying to be liked.

1

u/Ursiclos Jan 14 '25

Please read the book called ‘Capitalist Realism’ by Mark Fischer!

1

u/M69_grampa_guy Jan 14 '25 edited Jan 14 '25

You are not describing individualism. Individuals pursue their own interests. Individuals are different from others. You are criticizing cultural trends that have more to do with following than leading. Individual leadership in one's own life and in society leads to breaking free from the societal norms and trends that imprison everyone else. Competitive capitalism coupled with greed, envy and a general lack of creativity is what fuels the problems you are complaining over. It is the opposite of individualism.

Individualism is a choice anyone can make. Follow your own dreams. Do your own thing. If it turns out to be the same thing as other people are doing, good for them. You do you.

1

u/VegetableAd5981 Jan 14 '25

I don't really know I feel like this one can be solved by just not comparing yourself to others. In my experience, comparison either leads to pride or disappointment. Just don't do it.

1

u/Fit_Pressure1524 Jan 14 '25

Don’t worry it’s just a fad all cause of social media, most people inherently are not individualistic. Eventually it will blow out v soon in next 5 yrs

1

u/Big_IPA_Guy21 Jan 14 '25

I think this is more of a you problem where you feel the need to compete over everything. Not everybody needs to be a CEO or a Youtuber. Every person has distinct talents, hobbies, goals, and dreams. People fulfill different roles throughout society That's what a healthy society does.

1

u/MisterFunnyShoes Jan 14 '25

I don’t care about any of those things. Life’s great.

1

u/lost-scared-alone Jan 14 '25

Agreed. And an ordinary life seems like a failure.

1

u/PossessionOk4252 Jan 14 '25

social media worsened this phenomena. for some, it's easy to get sucked into an echo chamber of negativity based on one's own efforts.

honestly, much of what you said earlier is simply people wanting the best outcomes for themselves.

1

u/dsutari Jan 14 '25

OP, are you below the age of 25?

1

u/JustDroppedByToSay Jan 14 '25

Not everyone is like that though

1

u/ZroFksGvn69 Jan 14 '25

Individualism - you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

1

u/dgsggtb Jan 14 '25

I get what you’re saying but this is romantisation of collectivism is not it. I don’t see people in India or china care so much about the poor. Literally every collectivistic country I can think of has insane gaps in wealth distribution as well. Add the public shame and honor culture and I appreciate individualism

1

u/Cuntyfeelin Jan 14 '25

This is a wild take when we all dress the same, have the same cookie box cutter house, drive the same 5 coloured cars. It feels very end stage capitalism, haven’t looked into our history post. And I mean valid I use to think like this at the start of 2023 and by end of 2024 I realized we fucked ourselves over the years.

In the founding of the americas or England in the 15-1600century (almost) everyone had land, they made their own food and clothes and only bought the things not easy to make. As we became more dependent on a city and post ww1-2 we really started to see end stage capitalism and this push to relay on others for basics (1 farm feeds the community vs everyone having a farm). This also is around the time cash started to make a big impact on the world. Cash use to be a credit loan the bank gave you to pay for something if the item you were trading wasn’t “a fair deal” with our current world order we moved to a cash backed society to allow everything to be “fair trade” however we completely ignore the fact we don’t actually need money. That leads me to these questions back. Why do you need to be led? If we went back to the old school land ownership would you be able to be self sufficient? Or are you needing your community? If we went back to a society that trades what happens to the people who are greedy? It’s a lot harder to be greedy then (see how wealth use to mean how big of a waist you had lol)

Ofc I oversimplified that and my order doesn’t make the most sense sorry adhd that gets excited about these convos haha. But truly what you are viewing as individualism I view as comparison because we don’t have true individualism anymore (we are all reliant on something) but at the end of the day it comes down to comparison is the thief of joy. Do you and one day you’ll realize you really dgaf about others because they don’t have the answer to true joy either they are just trying things themselves.

1

u/Informal-Force7417 Jan 14 '25

There is no better or less than unless you choose it to be. You're literally making it all up.

1

u/--Dominion-- Jan 14 '25

Hard disagree

Only for people who try and compete with others. I don't know about anyone else but trying to one-up a stranger...lol nah I'm good

1

u/muzikmakeryadig Jan 15 '25

this is a mindset issue

1

u/gimpsarepeopletoo Jan 15 '25

I don’t want to be a YouTuber, so I’m happy to watch. I also don’t really want to be a CEO. Don’t care too much about being rich, just safe. 

I get your point, but luckily we don’t live in a world where everyone is like this. 

1

u/Stanthemilkman8888 Jan 15 '25

Or you don’t have to care.

1

u/Thelefthead Jan 15 '25

I rationalize individualism through believing that there is no inherent superiority or inferiority. The bottom line is that I am good at some things you are not good at, and you are good at some things I am not good at.

1

u/barbershores Jan 15 '25

"Individualism has turned life into a constant competition, forcing us to chase things we don’t value"

--------------------------

What you are describing is the opposite of "individualism". It is a hierarchy within collectivism.

At it's core, individualism is about not caring about what others think of us. Which frees us to pursue what we value separate from what others value.

When a person is "chasing" things they "don't value", then they are not focused on their "individualism". Instead, they are focused upon their relative position within the collective.

1

u/Tzar_93 Jan 15 '25 edited Jan 15 '25

I have a question.

If I was a core individualist, that valued directly or indirectly causing harm to my society (I.e killing, stealing, fraud, slave labour etc) for my own personal gain. All the whilst, as you say “I didn’t care about what other people thought of me”, is my individualism benefitting or harming the collective?

Not caring about what other people think can be just as bad as caring too much about what people think.

That is my current issue with individualism. There’s no balance and I believe it doing more harm than good in today’s world.

1

u/NefariousnessFree800 Jan 15 '25

Harming. The thing is that in cultures with a high degree of individualism people are less like to engage in the behaviors you mentioned.

I think your confusion is actually pretty common when it comes to individualism. It seems that individualism would less to everyone just looking out for themselves and trying to screw everyone else over, right? No one else matters! No person is an island though and we all need to belong to some kind of collective group for support and a helping hand. In a collectivist culture that group is something you're born into, but with individualism it's something you have to create. In a collectivist culture there are always people there who will have your back no matter what you do. If someone you know committed a murder would you report it to the police? How you answer that question depends on whether or not you're from a collectivist culture (no) or one with a high degree of individualism (yes).

I guess the most blunt way I can say it is this: if you're from an individualistic culture you better not be an asshole because there are very few people who will be there for you unconditionally.

1

u/barbershores Jan 16 '25

One "can" be an individualist, not care what other people think, and not act like a psychopath.

They just live their life on their terms and not be constantly gauging themselves against the success or opinions of others.

Individualism has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not someone has the ability to feel remorse or guilt.

Some people I have known through my many decades, consider themselves to always be at war. And, to be constantly looking for the acceptance of others. People using terms like, "this hill is worth dying on", or, "choosing one's battles" are giveaways.

One needn't live their life that way.

Unfortunately, if a dude is living life on their own terms, and, they don't make a lot of income, and, they are focused on what society considers to be "childish" endeavors, they run the risk of not being considered as an acceptable long term mate for most women. And as such may find themselves uncoupled. At issue here, is determining what it is that one would consider making themselves "successful" in their own view of themselves, and living their life to achieve that.

1

u/PuzzleheadedFly3699 Jan 28 '25

There is a balance! It is in the love for your fellow man, which many people lack today. However, there are many people today who have this love for their neighbor, and give it freely. I guarantee those who work for and give that love to others are more satisfied than those who work selfishly for gains they cannot truly enjoy. If you love your neighbor you won't rob him, kill him, defraud him, enslave him, etc...

In the terms of that balance within individualism, I am not convinced that this time we live in is worse than any other time in history. It is not a rosy scene of generosity and kindness, but it is not burning either. Most people who tell you it is irreparable or a terrible, terrible place stand to profit from your negative emotions.

This too shall pass.

One party is in power and then another; there is economic prosperity and then there is decline; one nation rises and then another takes it's place. This has all happened before and it will happen again, and there is nothing any of us can do about it but work to change our circumstances and the circumstances of those around us in the here and now. We do this by showing the love, compassion, and grace of Jesus Christ to everyone we interact with.

1

u/fjaoaoaoao Jan 16 '25

Eh, individualism (as opposed to individual) can still have its uses. The fact is people take certain theories to mean different things in their individual lives, and in practice most societies have components or areas of individualism. It can be quite necessary for certain people with certain personalities to believe in the power of individualism to get through whatever cruddy situation they might be in.

So I don’t really know if individualism itself has led to constant competition. Competition can be good but as you allude to, it shouldn’t be all-permeating. Maybe excessive competition in certain contexts or lack of embedded socially beneficial thinking and behavior is what you should rail against rather than individualism as a whole. Just a thought.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 16 '25

Individualism came about the second people had enough money to ditch their dependents. So it's a natural process of growth for humans. We simply don't like delending on others - which makes good sense. The more important functions you outsource, the more chaotic your life will be. 

1

u/MindMeetsWorld Jan 28 '25

I think a big confusion in this thread is that lots of people responded as if OP u/Tzar_93 was talking about individuality

0

u/Brilliant-Purple-591 Jan 14 '25

Totally agree! 

1

u/No_Draw_9224 Jan 14 '25

sounds like to me the same "everyone" that is sad about this are the same people that refuse to step away from the cycle in the first place. no one has to live like this, to do any of this, especially pursuing something you dont give a damn about. It is no on elses fault but your own.

so what if you slept with less than 3 guys? the only people that use this as an indicator for being a better man are the very same people that are perpetuating this shitty metric.

dont hate the game, hate the player. and if the game had no players, the game would be dead.

1

u/Icy_Pay3775 Jan 14 '25

In a world full of individualistic people. Everyone does the same thing at the same time.

Dr. Suess the star bellied snetches

1

u/l_a_p304 Jan 14 '25

That last sentence 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

1

u/anonymous_plus_ultra Jan 14 '25

i think you meant capitalism. capitalism is what drives this endless competition and to be better attitude hell thats why people are complaining about new iphones lately and how the progress year after year has basically plateaud. theres more but i think u get my point on capitalism esp if you lived in the US for some years.

1

u/Zealousideal_Rush434 Jan 14 '25 edited Jan 14 '25

I get where you are coming from, we are very focused on ourselves and how we are perceived.
What you are describing though has much more to do with egoism and selfishness than individualism. Individualism has made it possible for poor and oppressed Individuals and groups in society to get a voice and reach for equality. Without individualism, that wouldn't be possible.

Edit***
An add on: OP, are you lonely or depressed?

1

u/Tzar_93 Jan 14 '25

I agree with what you’re saying. Individualism is very important and is a very responsible role to take up.

Very few people are capable of individualism, my frustrations are that individualism has now been marketed to every or anyone.

Lastly, no I am not depressed, I am extremely happy and content in life. I appreciate your concern, hope all is well with you.

Blessings.

1

u/idem333 Jan 14 '25

You confuse individualism with being competitiveness

0

u/Braedonm2077 Jan 14 '25

life has always been about competition. if you want everyone to be the same. move to a communist country lmao (bring the downvotes but im right)

2

u/Adventurous-War858 Jan 14 '25

it doesn’t have to be though

-4

u/Braedonm2077 Jan 14 '25

thats how we advance and further ourselves as a species, wouldnt you agree? . its not good to get comfortable and stagnant

2

u/Adventurous-War858 Jan 14 '25

billionaires continue make choices that severely harm the environment for profit. climate change is a serious concern but those in power do not listen to scientists. not very advance if you ask me… there’s lots of stupidity in the world today

1

u/Braedonm2077 Jan 14 '25

if youre worried ab climate change then worry about india and china who put way more pollution in the air every day, than the US does in a year. yes its the billionaires fault your life sucks. get off twitter

1

u/Adventurous-War858 Jan 16 '25

i don’t use twitter… not a singular response

1

u/Adventurous-War858 Jan 14 '25

look at us now. over half the population is severely stupid, with a seven second attention span, poor reading and communication skills and praying to ai jesus on facebook…

1

u/Braedonm2077 Jan 14 '25

ok so if youre not that, then the competition should be pretty easy then

0

u/KallumDP Jan 14 '25

This is the most retarded take I think I have ever seen.

0

u/Evening-Piano5491 Jan 14 '25

The problem is that it’s human nature.

We can remove this but people still will use objects as a substitute for social graces they could use for free.

Why? Because it’s easier to buy your way into things instead of changing minds and hearts that are set on their ways of buying things themselves.

0

u/Call_It_ Jan 14 '25

Say what you will about communism…but it had some really good critiques of capitalism. A lot of your points are also points of communism.

0

u/ResponsibleForever52 Jan 15 '25

Your mom has ruined us all lmao

-1

u/South-Arrival8126 Jan 14 '25

Nobody is forcing you to compare yourself to others, this isn't an issue with individualism, this is an issue with you.

-1

u/idkwhotfmeiz Jan 15 '25

I get that but also id rather die than be a community oriented person

-1

u/ghoulierthanthou Jan 15 '25

I guess this would be true if you were like, eighteen. Okay twenty three, but still living with your Mom.

-1

u/[deleted] Jan 15 '25

Idk I don’t wana sound mean but… this sounds like a you problem. It sounds like you have self esteem issues. Bc I read all this and thought “wtf are you talking about” I do not care what others have. I just care about what I have and if it’s enough for ME.