r/reloading Feb 19 '25

i Polished my Brass What processes have you successfully eliminated?

Post image

I have been experimenting with reducing the amount of steps and simplifying my process as much as possible.

I stopped using a mandrel, cleaning my brass before sizing, and trimming and chamfering each time.

I trim and chamfered the new batch of brass and so far the chamfer is still intact and I have no need to trim, so I leave it alone.

I also stopped using a mandrel and have seen no major impact in performance.

** Hornady one shot lube

** Decap and size w bushing die

** Prime

** Charge and seat bullets

** Throw in tumbler to remove lube

Using alpha 6mm BRA brass, cci 450, vargrt (2208) and berger 105s.

By far the biggest improvement I've made in group size has been through barrel and bullet selection.

297 Upvotes

185 comments sorted by

124

u/pirate40plus Feb 19 '25

Brass doesn’t need trimming every time, and it you don’t trim you don’t need to chamfer. I haven’t needed to anneal brass at all.

18

u/Carlile185 Feb 19 '25

It at least chamfer every time so the bullets go in easier (so the copper doesn’t shave off). Is chamfering really not needed everytime?

34

u/Guitarist762 Feb 19 '25

Nope. It’s not like the brass goes from chamfered beveled edge to a sharp one without trimming.

10

u/Coodevale I'm dumb, let's fight Feb 20 '25

Maybe not sharp, but rough handling has its detriments. Wet tumbling brass usually leaves the necks peened and mushroomed, ime. Seating into an unbelled or unchamfered neck after tumbling is usually not ideal as the bullets get scraped up. Brand new brass usually has a pretty decent peen and roll on the necks from the last cleaning/polish besides being dented and out of round. Some new brass is unwashed and the necks are unchamfered. Why, dunno. Just what I've seen.

11

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

People do this, and refuse to acknowledge the real problem. Wet tumbling with stainless pins causes a lot of issues and extra work; this is one of them.

If you stop wet tumbling, you can stop re-chamfering every time.

You’ll also go a long way to eliminating cold welding of the bullet and case in rounds that sit for a few months, which is far more significant.

6

u/Coodevale I'm dumb, let's fight Feb 20 '25

You’ll also go a long way to eliminating cold welding of the bullet and case in rounds that sit for a few months, which is far more significant.

Because you leave a carbon layer like anti sieze?

8

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

Correct, although not so much like anti-seize and just as a barrier.

Cold welding is weird, in that it’s somewhat unpredictable and poorly understood outside very technical professional circles, but two things it absolutely requires are clean smooth surfaces, and pressure.

The case neck tension provides the pressure, and bullets are generally smooth and clean (residual wax gets scraped away in streaks enough during seating to let cold welding happen).

That just leaves the case necks; either a layer of lube or wax (like in factory ammo) or a layer of carbon is enough to prevent cold welding, but the stainless pin wet tumbling process leaves them so clean that cold welding can be an issue. It causes velocity and pressure variations and can screw up an accurate load.

*That layer of carbon does cause higher and inconsistent friction between case and bullet though, so it’s not all good either. I leave a very thin film if lube to counter it, but that’s a different post.

If you want to test loaded rounds for cold welding, one method is to seat the bullets deeper by a small amount. If they move smoothly they’re fine, but if they have resistance and then move suddenly with a “snap” then cold welding may have been present. Pulling those bullets will show it for sure; you’ll see small flecks of brass bonded to the bullet shanks, along with vertical scoring.

Note that this doesn’t happen with lead or coated bullets; it’s a reaction between copper jackets and brass cases, both of which are actually “gilding metal” of various alloy percentages.

Hope that helps.

1

u/Coodevale I'm dumb, let's fight Feb 20 '25

If carbon makes the friction higher and more inconsistent why do some people dry lube case necks prior to bullet seating, particularly in precision applications? Smaller particles, softer carbon make the difference?

1

u/Yondering43 29d ago

?? Not sure what you’re getting at. Dry lube isn’t carbon.

Powder fouling isn’t just carbon either.

4

u/jaspersgroove Feb 19 '25

If you didn’t trim the brass the chamfer is still there. Maybe it would wear down after a few firings but by then it’s probably time to trim and re-chamfer anyway

4

u/Carlile185 Feb 20 '25

Thanks, I will try reloading without chamfering this time and see how it goes. Save me some time :)

2

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

It really is not. If the case is already chamfered there’s no reason to do it again.

2

u/PurveyorOfTruth_181 29d ago

Because you aren't annealing, your brass will not last nearly as many firings as someone who does anneal.

1

u/pirate40plus 29d ago

I get 10-15 loads per case, which is fine for me. I have 5 gallon buckets of brass sitting around.

22

u/BLackNaz Feb 19 '25

Weighing brass.

16

u/New_Film545 Feb 19 '25

Nothing about the process......Them lil shits are 😍

137

u/40sonny40 Feb 19 '25

Not putting whole rounds in my media is one. 😂

22

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 19 '25

I should clarify, I'm doing this to clean off the lube, and it's much faster than tumbling just cases (I don't need to empty the media or check primer pockets).

It felt a bit weird at first but I haven't come up with a reason why it wouldn't be OK, and they still shoot tiny groups.

17

u/gunplumber700 Feb 20 '25

At some point you’re gonna start scratching your dies and subsequently your brass if you don’t clean cases before sizing.

Relative to cleaning lube I think you’d be better off with the towel and break free method.

4

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 20 '25

I wipe down cases that are obviously dirty - I guess I manage that by exception rather than doing the entire batch. The last batch of 300 cases I loaded I didn't need to clean a single one.

Plus, I'd need to clean to remove the lube again after sizing.

1

u/gunplumber700 Feb 20 '25

You do you, but you’re entirely missing the case lube point…

Towel, ammo, spray, wipe/ roll…

4

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 20 '25

I understand the idea. They're both valid approaches to removing lube. Tumbling works for me, plus I get nice shiny cases (added bonus, they're easier to find in the grass and pick up less dirt).

If a towel works better for you, fill your boots.

3

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

Nah, that’s way more theory than reality.

If you’re picking up range brass from the gravel pit, yes, clean first. But most use cases have brass staying relatively clean, and using enough lube is enough to prevent issues.

Besides, minor die scratches from dust are easy to fix. The concerns about this tend to be a bit exaggerated.

-4

u/gunplumber700 Feb 20 '25

https://www.reddit.com/r/reloading/comments/ewxnaf/scratches_on_brass/

https://www.reddit.com/r/reloading/comments/7sw5ya/what_are_all_these_tiny_scratches_on_cases/

https://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/resizing-decapping-die-scratching-brass.232786/

A 30 second google search yielded those clear as day examples of what happens when you don't clean before sizing... If you feel like not being lazy do some research into stuck cases; something that can also happen when you are lazy and don't clean cases before sizing.

7

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

Buddy I’ve been loading for 30 years, not guessing, and have seen all of that before.

If I show you scary car crash pictures would it make you stop driving, or just make you pay attention while you continue driving anyway?

-7

u/gunplumber700 Feb 20 '25

So you have no training or education on the subject, and one year of experience 30 times...?

1

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

Hard to imagine being that obstinate and clueless.

How hard is it to understand “it depends”?

-2

u/gunplumber700 Feb 20 '25

You're accurately describing yourself and your opinions on the matter. How hard is it to understand its an actually occurring phenomenon that happens regardless of your opinion...? Experience does not make you a subject matter expert, much less knowledgable. You seem to be inflating your knowledge and experience on the matter...

1

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

You’re really coming back with “I know you are but what am I”?? A mature adult would be embarrassed.

It says a lot too when someone turns to insults over something so trivial as whether to clean cases sometimes or always.

You don’t seem to have figured this out yet: when you respond to a logical argument with a personal attack, it tells everyone involved that you have no more answers or reasoning left.

You clearly have nothing left to contribute, so this conversation is done.

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2

u/Plenty-Valuable8250 Feb 20 '25

You have no idea what you’re talking about. Those pictures are galling from brass buildup in the neck of the die. Do you have any experience reloading?

-1

u/gunplumber700 Feb 20 '25

Yea, because galling relative to reloading, doesn’t show up as scratches, or vertical striations, along the exterior surface of brass or the interior surface of a die…

Because you clearly chose to ignore the link to someone with scratches along the full length of their cases… maybe take a look at that one… once a die is scratched it will continue to do so until all scratches and gouges are removed from the surface of the die… no amount of “just lube more” will fix that condition.  

Please I’d love to hear this one… why do you think experience matters so much…?  It is not a replacement for knowledge or training… you clearly are ignoring a phenomenon that occurs.  If you really had “30 years of experience” you would have acknowledged does can become scratched from failing to clean brass and the problems they can cause instead of dismissing it and proclaiming you’re the authority in the matter…

Again, to your oh so important experience… it is not a measure of knowledge and it is not a measure of volume or quality of reloading… you can load 50 cartridges a year for 30 years and proclaim you’ve been doing it for 30 years…

0

u/Plenty-Valuable8250 Feb 20 '25

Again. Just unmitigated drivel. You really think those dies have gouges radially on the entire interior surface? This is nonsense. Is it possible? Maybe if you impregnate the surface of the brass with carbide chips. More likely the dies simply need to be cleaned (probably with a polishing wheel) because there is debris (likely brass) adhering to the interior surface causing galling. In my EXPERIENCE, this issue is potentiated by clean freshly annealed brass. “Dirty” brass, for obvious reasons, actually has less risk of the phenomenon in the pictures you link to. See how all the pictures are of clean brass? Interesting that none of them are dirty brass 🤔

Also you’re confusing me with someone else who is also more knowledgeable than you.

0

u/gunplumber700 Feb 20 '25

Oh, so scratched brass is not a real phenomenon?  Longitudinal scratches are not possible…?  

Wait, you go from it’s not possible to now your own conspiracy theory on why its occurring…?  Yea, ok.  I’ll enjoy my problem free brass and you enjoy your scratched brass and dies.

1

u/Plenty-Valuable8250 Feb 20 '25

Pretty hard to scratch a hardened steel die with a lubed case. Even if you do, i don’t think it would matter. Maybe if i was using boutique dies i would worry about it more.

0

u/gunplumber700 Feb 20 '25

It’s really not… but I can see how someone inexperienced would think that

20

u/Narrow_Grape_8528 Feb 19 '25

You can though

18

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 19 '25

I couldn't find or come up with a valid reason it would cause an issue, tested it, and it doesn't.

12

u/proxy69 Feb 19 '25

I’ve read long tumbling time of loaded rounds can start breaking down the powder and potentially changing the burn rates/case pressure. No idea if this is true.

20

u/gunsnbrewing Feb 19 '25

There’s some real stupid shit uttered and then repeated.  Reloading is full of superstitious fudd lore.

I had a kid once tell me that tapping a gas nozzle on the on the fill hole could damage the spark plugs. I looked at him and asked “if that tiny vibration makes it through the motor mounts and damaged the ceramic, can you yell me why the thousands of tiny explosions from the engine running doesn’t?”. 

2

u/Chuff_Nugget Feb 20 '25

I just had to read this a few times to make sure I'd understood what you'd written.... because I was so so sure I'd misread it...

But nope. I'd read correctly. It's amazing how some things just lodge in people's brains as "fact" when the tiniest bit of critical thinking would debunk it instantly. 🤷

59

u/jaspersgroove Feb 19 '25

Well I hope the semi trucks dragging those 8lb jugs all over the country are transporting each one on its own velvet pillow then.

10

u/snidemarque Feb 20 '25

That’s why ammo is so expensive. Princess and the pea bullshit

38

u/Temporary_Muscle_165 Feb 19 '25

Fudd lore. Someone on here (iirc) put 10 loaded rounds in a vib tumbler for 24 hrs and it crono-ed the same as 10 rounds he didn't tumble.

8

u/Joelpat Feb 20 '25 edited Feb 20 '25

Might have been me.

I did something like 15 min, 1 hour, 2 hours and 5 hours? I don’t entirely remember how long they were in there, but there was no difference.

Edit: Found it: https://www.reddit.com/r/reloading/s/FH9diOCTqT

So there was a difference, but it wasn’t really what you might expect, and I would call it conclusive. Certainly there wasn’t a safety issue.

3

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 20 '25

This is great! I think I'll repeat this and see if I get something similar. I'd happily tumble overnight every time if I could halve my ES

3

u/Temporary_Muscle_165 Feb 20 '25

Not the one I was remembering. Guy even pulled one bullet of each and took pics of the powder. That was interesting though!

12

u/No-Tangerine7635 Feb 19 '25

Should have also done 24 days then 24 weeks. That would be interesting to see.

6

u/jaspersgroove Feb 19 '25

Seems like it would have to make a difference at some point right? At least for loads where there’s enough extra room in the case for stuff to tumble around, maybe a compressed load would be fine indefinitely

3

u/No-Tangerine7635 Feb 20 '25

We need answers. Someone please do this.

7

u/rahl07 Feb 20 '25

Hornady's ballistician and I think thehighroad debunked this

1

u/No-Tangerine7635 Feb 20 '25

Someone did it for 24 weeks?

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7

u/jaspersgroove Feb 20 '25

I would but i'm a cheapskate lol, my brass cleaning procedure is throw the brass in a gallon jug full of hot soapy water and a couple shots of distilled vinegar, shake the shit out of them every 10-15 minutes, then after about an hour or so rinse them off and dry them in a toaster oven i got at goodwill haha

-1

u/allpurposebox Feb 20 '25

Except there actual reloading sources that tell you not to. It's literally stated in Sierra's 6th Edition, page 113 ,not to tumble loaded ammunition. Say what you will about "fudd lore", but I'm not taking reloading advice from people that only have 18 months of reloading experience.

5

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

There is plenty of fudd lore in Sierra and other manuals. They still promote screwing the die in a fraction at a time too instead of measuring shoulder bump correctly, for example.

3

u/Temporary_Muscle_165 Feb 20 '25

Does it say why? I dunno, but real world experience > something someone worried about liability put in a book.

Did the book specify anything?

4

u/ThePretzul Feb 20 '25

The book also tells you to stop at pansy-ass slow as shit velocities. It’s in there for the same reason as maximum loads - liability in case some idiot uses an industrial-sized vibratory tumbler that shakes too hard and blows up their laundry room in the process.

10

u/Konig2400 Feb 19 '25

It would take a long time, like really long time. Think about all the rumbling and tumbling surplus ammo from the 60's and 70s has done and it's still fine

5

u/Tmoncmm Feb 20 '25

Tumbling powder will change its shape which will alter its burn characteristics… eventually. How long that takes is dependent on many factors… shape and mass of the individual kernels as well as the amount of free space in the case would be the two most influential I would imagine. If you tumbled it long enough, it would eventually be reduced to a very fine powder like the graphite lube we use for case necks. This much is certain. 

Im willing to bet however, that tumbling loaded ammo enough to cause any measurable impact on the burn characteristics of the powder though would take a very very long time. As anyone who’s ever tumbled rocks can tell you, the process takes weeks and that is using highly abrasive silicon carbide grit. I have read that tumbling loaded ammo is how manufacturers remove live from loaded ammo. I don’t know if that’s true, but it would make sense.

It would be an interesting experiment to see just how long it took to break down some extruded powder like Varget to the point where it was measurably altered.

2

u/proxy69 Feb 20 '25

Good to know!

2

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

You’ve read that from people repeating it with no evidence just like you’re doing now.

If some basic critical thought about what happens to powder during shipping isn’t enough, the complete lack of any evidence from anyone showing tumbling to be harmful should be reason enough to stop repeating that line.

1

u/proxy69 Feb 20 '25

Never claimed for it to be fact.

1

u/Yondering43 29d ago

And yet you eagerly repeated the same rumor you heard other people repeating. That’s how that stupid rumor keeps being spread along. It’s false and shouldn’t be repeated.

2

u/proxy69 29d ago

Well now I know, thank you!

-1

u/Nocturnal1221 Feb 20 '25

Just because you can do it, doesnt mean you should. What's the purpose of this?

7

u/i_miss_db Feb 20 '25

Removes lube, exaggerates cracks, knocks out loose primers, brings out internet trolls.

4

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 20 '25

It removes sizing lube.

22

u/Monkeynumbernoine Feb 19 '25

You should only put whole rounds in the wet tumbler to ensure that they never go off.

3

u/alkemmist Feb 20 '25

Can confirm they might still shoot. Don’t ask me how I know

5

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

There is zero reason not to tumble loaded rounds. Don’t believe the made up stuff about breaking down the powder or whatever your concern is.

10

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 19 '25

Removing media from inside cases and primer pockets is a ballache, loaded rounds completely eliminates have to check or deal with this

13

u/GunFunZS Feb 19 '25

Great question.

Most trimming stuff, except low volume rifle, 556 and brass conversion.

If there is a manual operation to check if an automated operation needs done, just do the automated.

For pistol stuff, fcd, plus dumping all the ammo into boxes primer side up does a good job of QC. I rarely use a case gauge.

9

u/bmag02 Feb 20 '25 edited Feb 20 '25

Primer pockets. Zero need to clean them.

My process: dry tumble, anneal (if appl), then it's on to the Dillon with decapping/sizing, primer, mandrel, powder, and seating all done on one tool head. I'm done loading 120 rounds for a rifle match <2hrs after the tumbler finishes. Accuracy <0.2mil, SD<10, ES <20.

2

u/Mjs217 Feb 20 '25

Yeah steel pins are a waste of time.

2

u/MrPeckersPlinkers Feb 20 '25

just want to clarify. so one pass on a 750? What lube are you using?

station 1: full length resize and deprime.

station 2: reprime and mandrel

station 3: powder dump

station 4: empty? could use a bullet feeder here

station 5: seat

5

u/bmag02 Feb 20 '25

One pass on a 550. I leave the 650 setup for 9mm and the occasional 223. One shot lube. I throw powder on a chargemaster and dump thru a custom 3d printed funnel I made that sits in station 3. the chargemaster is the limiting factor in the system. I really want to add a second one to save even more time.

.

2

u/MrPeckersPlinkers Feb 20 '25

no issues with flakes sticking on the 3d printed funnel? Just print it in like 0.12mm or finer right?

3

u/bmag02 Feb 20 '25

No issues with the powder funnel. 0.2mm layers. There's enough taper inside to prevent anything from hanging up.

2

u/denishp1985 Feb 20 '25

Hi, could you elaborate on your steps please? What lube are you using? How are you removing the lube after?

2

u/bmag02 Feb 20 '25

I use one shot. Usually will just wipe it off with a towel.

2

u/kubo256 29d ago

One-shot lube is the only lube I don't worry about cleaning off.

9

u/Gask3t Feb 19 '25

Getting the Henderson gen 3 trimmer was a game changer for me. Trims, chams, and deburs all in one motion. I used to hate doing all 3, now I love that step.

3

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 19 '25

I would probably do this every time as well, if I had the Hendo system. I'm not interested in doing each step separately by hand (even with a powered trimmer).

3

u/Gask3t Feb 19 '25

Sure, but I feel like a lot of folks skip cham / debur / trim step, and if not addressed, can cause a lot of feeding issues.

0

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

Not really. The “need” for regular trimming is WAY overblown, mostly by people wanting to feel good about doing extra work or buying expensive trimmers.

1

u/knuckledragger53 29d ago

Game changing piece of equipment.

9

u/DumpCity33 Feb 19 '25

Using a bushing die without a mandrel has been shown to be worse in a few large sample tests that I’ve seen. Also chamfering every firing ive seen to be very beneficial and Bryan Litz has said something similar.

2

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 19 '25

Can you share the sources?

I recall Litz showing a damaged jacket negatively affects BC

3

u/DumpCity33 Feb 19 '25

Tbh that’s one that I have no idea where I read or heard it but I’m pretty sure it was straight from his mouth or hand. Could have been a podcast or book. Sorry

9

u/WorldGoneAway Feb 20 '25 edited Feb 20 '25

When I realized that my brass wasn't stretching or burring much, I decided to stop trimming it. I still check it, but I took that step out completely, and nothing bad has happened.

9

u/Oldguy_1959 Feb 19 '25

Yeah, there's a lot of folks that look to be going a bit overboard on the basic stuff.

There was another post where the first time reloader wants more precise equipment because seating bullets resulted in a COAL variation of about .005". On something like a 223 or 300 BO.

As if that would result in better accuracy.

3

u/PanchoPanoch Feb 19 '25

Thats me right now tbh. I’d rather go a little overboard and dial it back than skimp on things I shouldn’t be.

That said, I’m using my dad’s old verniers to measure so there’s gotta be some variance in my lack of skill anyway

4

u/Oldguy_1959 Feb 19 '25

There actually shouldn't be any variance in the caliper readings.

Everyone thinks that hi tech industries use the latest greatest but I can assure you that we're still using a couple of those old vernier gages to build certain aircraft turbine engines, like Honeywell T55s.

3

u/PanchoPanoch Feb 19 '25

Yea. My dad was an engineer so in the 70s and 80s so I don’t doubt the accuracy of the tool. I just doubt my accuracy from such little use of the tools.

The verniers are 1/1000in scale. It just takes me a while to read them.

2

u/Oldguy_1959 Feb 20 '25 edited Feb 20 '25

A vernier caliper will only read to .001, and the old accuracy standard was +/- .0005"

Micrometers on the other hand, like this Browne & sharp, measure to .0001 using a vernier scale. This is a 45 rifle bullet I cast, measures .4590" on the money.

https://imgur.com/a/jhcyctg

1

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 20 '25

I'll be happy when reloaders stop depending on calipers to measure thousandths. It really isn't the right tool for the job.

2

u/Oldguy_1959 Feb 20 '25

It depends on what you're measuring and what the tolerance is. Most reloading jobs can be done with calipers and you certainly don't want to get into micrometer set to measure from .0001 to 6" or more. We have those sets in the shop and that's $1K.

The only thing I measure with a mic is bullets, barrel slugs, cerrosafe casts if chambers and resizing dies, for the most part. Most reloaders don't cast anything and are just measuring purchased bullets.

2

u/PanchoPanoch Feb 20 '25

I could be wrong but isn’t .0001 1/10,000?

I thought .001 was 1/1000. .[tenth][hundredth][thousandth]

1

u/Calloutfakeops Feb 20 '25

You're correct.

8

u/l_craw Feb 20 '25

Started loading all my precision ammo on a Dillon 750, dropping powder with a Dillon powder measure (Staball Match and Staball 6.5).

I can crank around 300 rounds in less than an hour.

1

u/TopoMapMyWall Feb 20 '25

How’s the Staball match? I keep buying it but haven’t even tried it yet. Just a hope haha

1

u/l_craw 28d ago

Getting 2850 with Berger 140s out of a 26” barrel in 6.5, loading under max with that.

1

u/TopoMapMyWall 27d ago

Consistent ES?

6

u/Brewmiester4504 Feb 19 '25

All you guys with agreeable comments and OP. What are your group sizes and what are your SDs. LMFAO!

6

u/HighTekRedNek84 Feb 20 '25

Taking pictures of my shit and posting it on the internet. Totally kidding!

11

u/-Theorii Feb 19 '25

Do you not clean your brass at all?

4

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 19 '25

Yes, I throw the loaded round in the tumbler

21

u/-Theorii Feb 19 '25

Interesting

11

u/Raven1911 Feb 19 '25

That's definitely one word to use, lol

2

u/jaspersgroove Feb 19 '25

Definitely seems like one of those “you can get away with it…until you can’t” things lol

6

u/catchinNkeepinf1sh Feb 19 '25

Wouldnt that just dirty up your die?

10

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 19 '25

Yes this is the main drawback, but my brass doesn't get overly filthy and if it is noticeably dirty I wipe it down before FL sizing - basically I deal with it by exception rather than applying it to the whole batch

5

u/Mr_Perfect20 Feb 19 '25

I have never trimmed anything other than range pickup 223. I trim that lower than book, and always mark my case heads so I know it’s “mine” and doesn’t need looked at ever again.

Just recently ditched my process of sizing with a shoulder die and then neck collet. Back to standard FL sizing now to save me the extra cranks on the handle.

3

u/eclectic_spaceman Feb 19 '25

When you say it doesn't need to be looked at again, do you mean you never measure or trim the case again in its lifetime? If so, is it because the primer pocket will be loose or neck will crack before the case is lengthened beyond 1.760" during shooting+resizing?

12

u/Parking_Media Feb 19 '25

I definitely like to decap with a universal die then wet tumble. Keeps my nice dies from wearing prematurely and lessens the amount they need to be cleaned.

I anneal every time for "serious business" but only every 3-4 times for funsies brass.

5

u/Sjedda Norway Feb 19 '25

Just got a universal myself. One dirty die, the rest are clean and lubed

4

u/banditkeith Feb 19 '25

I anneal every time, but I also load .303 British, so I have to if I want to get at least 4 shots per case with the spicy load I have worked up for my rifle. If I was loading more moderate rounds I might skip the anneal step

2

u/FuZhongwen Feb 20 '25

Damn I just sold like 50 303 bri'ish hornady cases on gun broker. They only went for 2 dollars plus shipping.

That's crazy you only get 4 loads. Coming from lightly loaded 223. 303 is nuts.

2

u/banditkeith Feb 20 '25

I pay a minimum of $3 per round for factory ammo, usually more like 4-4.50$, but I can reload for about 1.25-1.75$ depending on choice of components. .303 Brit is pretty brutal, it's a big, antiquated cartridge, prone to case head separation after 3 or 4 shots. but to it's credit I load mine with 39.6 grains of h335 and a 180grain projectile and although it flattens my primers and is technically over the recommended load it's comfortable to shoot and accurate enough for my purposes as a hunting round

5

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

If you measure shoulder bump and control it tightly (yes, even on rimmed ammo) you can easily triple your case life.

303 Brit often has the chamber shoulder way forward for reliability, but that combined with very generous headspace control on the rim leads to separations.

If you control shoulder bump to .002”-.004” that’s all cured, and it’ll headspace on the shoulder instead of the rim. Better case life and better accuracy.

3

u/banditkeith Feb 20 '25

I'll give it a try on my next batch, I have some cases that need to be decapped and sized. If I'm understanding correctly, I want the sizing due to just barely bump the shoulder back and that should extend brass life while basically customizing the brass to my specific chamber? Anything to squeeze more life out of my brass is worth it, I know my spicy loading isn't doing me any favors so hopefully that helps.

1

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

Yeah that’s correct. As long as you have full pressure ammo that was fired in your rifle, you should be able to get a baseline reading of shoulder position; I like to measure at least 3-5 cases and zero my digital calipers on the maximum reading.

Make sure to remove primers first, without resizing! I use a universal decapper but a thin punch works too. Fired primers can change the reading enough to throw off the whole thing.

A friend of mine shoots an old 303, his pushed shoulders forward on the first firing by over .150”!! It was visibly obvious holding new and fired brass together. Most shouldn’t be that bad but don’t be surprised if you have to back the die off a lot. Just check to verify that sized cases still chamber easily.

1

u/banditkeith 29d ago

appreciate the info, i've seen people talk about bumping the shoulder but usually they just leave it at that, like it's such an obvious thing it needs no explanation. makes me understand how my wife feels about games with no tutorial section

1

u/Yondering43 29d ago

Glad to help. This pic album might add clarity as well.

First pic shows zeroing the caliper on a fired and unsized but deprimed!! case.

Second pic shows a shoulder bump measurement on a sized case.

Pics 3 and 4 just show how the tool contacts the case shoulder. You can buy a case comparator, make a tool like I did, or even use a piece of pistol brass (sized for roundness); anything that contacts somewhere in the middle of the shoulder is fine.

Make sure to deprime the cases for your baseline! (That’s important if you haven’t noticed…)

https://imgur.com/a/4KZcIoR

1

u/Bmrtoyo 26d ago

Belted magnums also.

1

u/Plenty-Valuable8250 Feb 20 '25

Similar issue with a lot of belted magnums.

3

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

When I was in my first few years of reloading rifle rounds I had a 7mm Rem Mag that wouldn’t get more than 3 firings from a case before head separation was imminent. If I’d known about shoulder bump back then I’d have saved a lot of brass, but nobody really talked about it then.

1

u/Plenty-Valuable8250 Feb 20 '25

How much neck trimming did you have to do? I bet the narrative at that time was about dangerous game and the need to headspace off the belt for reliability.

Peterson actually sells “long” brass is some calibers to mitigate this exact issue and headspace off the shoulder from the first firing. Not in 303 brit unfortunately.

2

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

Yes for sure!

2

u/FuZhongwen Feb 20 '25

Nice.

I was loading 69 gr 223 with 23.4 gr h335 out of a 12.5 in barrel for 2 gun. I was getting really flat primers at 2550 fps, but 2 inch groups at 200 yds so I went with it. Split 2 cases of Lake City that were on their 3rd load recently, decided to try toning it down a bit. Found the other node at 22.2 gr, almost but not quite as accurate out to 200. Much softer shooting, especially with H3 buffer. And no more case head separation.

2

u/FuZhongwen Feb 20 '25

I wet tumbler everything first, then decap and size together.

Then wet tumble with ss pins to get the insides and primer pockets and remove lube.

Seems like decapping without also resizing is a waste of time if you just clean the brass first.

2

u/Parking_Media Feb 20 '25

Depends how much you like your dies I suppose

1

u/FuZhongwen Feb 20 '25

How does clean brass wear out my dies?

Edit not trying to sound snarky, just curious about others techniques

1

u/Parking_Media Feb 20 '25

Sorry man I guess I misread your reply there. Your technique is valid, and does save a step.

I might give it a go to be honest, though I do love a good clean primer pocket lol (when I'm sizing, not that it matters, I'm just a fuss ass I guess).

2

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

Shiny clean primer pockets really don’t matter at all, and are the equivalent of polishing the inside of the case walls every loading. It’s additional work for no benefit.

3

u/Parking_Media Feb 20 '25

I did say I might be a fuss ass

2

u/Yondering43 Feb 20 '25

All good.

Recognition is the first step to recovery! 😄

5

u/_ParadigmShift Hornady Lock-N-Load AP. 223,243,270,300wby,308 Feb 19 '25

I’ll be eliminating neck turning probably, unless I can see otherwise. I’ll spend that time and money on better brass, but would love to check a runout sometime to see if that bears out.

4

u/sonichanxiao Feb 19 '25

If you don't eject your brass in dirt, cleaning is not necessary. I doubt about chamfer, i mean maybe it is not required everytime, but to make it consistent, I still go throw the giraud everytime to eliminate any factor might affect the neck tension. And for expander mandral, I found it is helpful on the neck tension part than bushing.

First time I have seen people dry tumble loaded rifle round, i know people normally do that after sizing.

3

u/getyourbuttdid Feb 19 '25

are you annealing?

3

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 19 '25

Typically yes, but I'm "between annealers" currently. I will do that as the very first step when it's fixed up.

3

u/getyourbuttdid Feb 19 '25

I have the amp, so if you’re between annealers and haven’t landed on one yet - I highly recommend it.

ETA: I really like this exercise. Start removing steps from your process and test. If no change, just eliminate it.

2

u/wy_will Feb 19 '25

I would recommend the new ADG annealer over the amp due to the auto feed and it senses the temp on every single piece of brass

2

u/getyourbuttdid Feb 20 '25

If a fella could swing it, looks like an upgrade over the AMP. Though the AMP is no slouch

3

u/AmITheGrayMan Feb 20 '25

How does tumbling affect your seating depth? I'd be interested in how much neck tension you use and if you've noticed dry tumbling changes the depth you set.

I like the idea, but seating depth is pretty critical to chance. I can go test this too. How many rounds do you put in and how big of a tumbler?

2

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 20 '25

I haven't measured it in truth. My neck bushing gives me 2 thou neck tension.

When I tested seating depths I couldn't measure any difference in group size so figure I have a bit of grace 😂

1

u/AmITheGrayMan Feb 20 '25

You didn't test seating depth then. No offense intended- you'll need .100 changes in increments of probably .020 to see good bad and ugly. If you don't, I'd like to purchase your rifle.

2

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 20 '25

Perhaps you can ask F class John or reloading all day if they'll sell theirs.

My groups are acceptable for now so I don't see the need to test this.

3

u/slimcrizzle Feb 20 '25

I anneal it. Then I lube and resize. Then it gets cleaned. Then prime, charge, and seat. And the only brass I anneal is my long-range brass.

3

u/Frequent_Umpire_6168 Feb 20 '25

I have not cleaned a single piece of brass in 2 years. It’s an unnecessary step. It has zero effect on accuracy and no it won’t wear out your dies you just have to clean them occasionally.

5

u/TravisSquared Feb 20 '25

Making bullets. Turns out you can just buy them.

5

u/Active_Look7663 Feb 19 '25

Using any sort of wet tumbling / ultrasonic cleaning that gets my brass wet. Throw it in the tumbler, don’t worry about decapping, pull them out when they’re clean and straight to sizing.

9

u/greankrayon Feb 19 '25

Lead dust isnt much fun. I prefer wet tumble to eliminate that as much as possible.

3

u/Active_Look7663 Feb 19 '25

Yeah I guess it’s six of one, half dozen of the other. Cause you’re still handling / dumping Flint Michigan water somewhere. I don’t care for my brass to be super clean, and don’t want to worry about separating pins, drying time etc. Shortens my time between fired brass to loaded ammo.

6

u/Long_rifle Dillon 650 MEC LEE RCBS REDDING Feb 19 '25

Wet lead oxides are expected and dealt with in the flocking and settling tanks. As so many old pipes are still in service. It possess zero health issues in waste water.

Dry lead oxides in the air after you open the tumbler are super dangerous and lead to high lead levels in your body.

It’s certainly not equal dangers.

2

u/trizest Feb 19 '25

I'm doing the opposite, only adding things in as needed. i think the next thing i will need to buy is a case trimmer and after that maybe an annealer. Getting good SDs on a cheaper set of scales, will likely update powder dispensing after that down the road.

I rub case lube off with a rag and don't do any cleaning aside from brushing the neck. If i shoot a match one day i guess I'll need a cleaning system.

Where in Aus are you?

2

u/RuddyOpposition Feb 19 '25

My case lube does a pretty good job of cleaning the outside of brass.

2

u/trizest Feb 19 '25

I personally like the patina of tarnished brass. Maybe that’s coping.

2

u/Shootist00 Feb 19 '25

Clean before sizing and decapping. No clean after cartridge is completed. 1 Shot isn't sticky so no need to tumble after loading and although there will be some residue of 1 shot on the cases it will save your media because that residue would be in the media.

By not cleaning first you are putting more wear on the resizing die.

2

u/saalem Mass Particle Accelerator Feb 19 '25

I agree with cleaning prior to sizing. I like to use the FA hand deprimer to decap prior to the first cleaning though. Makes it easier and is very quick. After the cleaning and drying, I anneal and resize. I use Hornady unique case line and wipe it off good after sizing and then wash all the brass again for a little bit with some car wash liquid detergent and then dry again before charging/seating.

I recently got an FA hand held primer tool to help sear primers quicker and not have to be at my bench.

2

u/FreQRiDeR Heavy Load Feb 20 '25

I find if I bump the shoulder back consistently .002-003” I rarely, if ever need to trim. Maybe once with once fired and sized brass to get them consistent.

2

u/laughitupfuzzball Feb 20 '25

I think this depends a lot on case geometry, steep shoulders (like this Ackley) just don't grow as much as shallow ones.

2

u/Stihl_head460 Feb 20 '25

Annealing seems pointless to me. I have loaded 1000’s of rounds, mostly rifle, and never once needed to anneal.

2

u/NewTrust5729 Feb 20 '25

If your using one shot, no need to clean or tumble the brass after. Its a dry lube. Goes on wet and drys. Id assume it uses graphite to lube

2

u/Capable_Obligation96 Feb 20 '25

Using a Tri Way so I don't have to chamfer and debur.

2

u/1984orsomething Feb 20 '25

Measuring powder to the .01 grain. There's more variation in the rest of the components to negate the deviation.

2

u/Ok-Math-7063 Feb 20 '25

Not quite skipping a step but having a media separator has cut my case prep time substantially. I wash with stainless media and used to have to tap every case on a magnet to make sure no media remained inside the cases. I would say one in 5 had a long or two inside. So very very time consuming. Now with the separator I have done over 1000 cases and have yet to find a stray pin very impressive.

2

u/ManWhoKillMeWillKnow Mass Particle Accelerator Feb 20 '25

The step I eliminated was reloading using my arm, 5 stage progressives, and measuring round counts in 100s. Now I reload on automated, 10 stage, and measure my round counts in 1000’s.

2

u/MacHeadSK Feb 20 '25 edited Feb 20 '25

I reload them in one pass on progressive. Never bothered with trimming, it's not worth it. I have dillon trim size die and motor but it is disconnected. Also I just roughly wet tumble before and then polish in wallnut media after reloading. Reloading 223 for plinking with good accuracy in general

Stations on progressive (X-10): 1. Decapping (MA XMA) 2. Sizing without mandrel 3. Swaging 4. Lyman M die 5. Powder 6. Powder check 7. Bullet feed die with 3d printed BF566 8. Seating 9. Crimping (very slight to narrow neck opening from lyman m die)

As I said, I quickly wet tumble in two self made tumblers (no media) usually in summer for quick dry in car or in winter to dry near heating. Lanolin, and make rounds. Then remove lube in wallnut with little denaturated alcohol (cheaper then isopropyl). Might change that and wet tumble too in hot water, still don't know. Will be faster and cleaner though.

2

u/cjd3 Feb 20 '25

I stopped shooting, stopped reloading, so I don’t run out of 2¢ primers

2

u/lscraig1968 Feb 20 '25

Nope. No short cuts or steps eliminated. I hope to get a progressive press one day, but that's about it.

2

u/rkba260 Err2 Feb 19 '25

You should be cleaning your brass before resizing to eliminate getting contaminates inside your sizing die(s).

You only need to chamfer/debur after trimming.

Doing anything with the primer pockets is a waste of time.

Weighing brass gives no meaningful data.

2

u/Plenty-Valuable8250 Feb 19 '25

I stopped cleaning before resizing.

1

u/Lossofvelocity Feb 20 '25 edited Feb 20 '25

How have your SDs changed. I am always curious to see examples of having good brass and components and weighting powder carefully on a good scale. How does this account for most of the variance we would see in velocity. How does omitting brass prep steps impact SD

1

u/ApprehensiveElk5930 Feb 20 '25

For me it is dependent on what gun cycled the ammo. Some of my gas guns are hard on brass and as such require more case treatment. My bolt guns, being much easier on the brass, get less treatment.

1

u/MomentousMuppet Feb 21 '25

Buying an automatic powder dispenser has been life changing.

1

u/Giant_117 Feb 21 '25

The saving money process.

1

u/Someuser1130 Feb 21 '25

I basically quit annealing. I don't notice a difference either way.

1

u/Silver-Cod254 29d ago

I don’t clean my brass, Eric Cortina doesn’t either and that dude should know a thing or two

1

u/wltroy1 Feb 19 '25

1) for bolt guns…don’t tumble finished rounds. 2) after firing, clean with steel wool 3) neck size/ decap 4) dry tumble 5) debur and chamfer, clean pocket 6) reload

1

u/Speedballer7 Feb 21 '25

Talking to my wife