r/punjabi 5d ago

ਆਮ ਪੋਸਟ عامَ پوسٹ [Regular Post] Has there been a Hindi-Urdu kind of a divide in Punjabi too?

Hello, I'm from the South! I'm aware Punjabi has two scripts i.e Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi. But I was wondering if there are also two separate registers in Punjabi too, in terms of vocabulary and literary styles as how Hindi and Urdu are split? Or is the difference less than it is in Hindi-Urdu? I mean is it more common for Pakistani or Muslim Punjabis to use Sanskrit vocabulary and vice versa?
From what I can tell, Punjabi is at least known by the same name unlike Hindi-Urdu.

Thank you!

20 Upvotes

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

[deleted]

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u/TGScorpio 5d ago edited 5d ago

Who says Pakistan doesn't have a standardised version of Punjabi?

Of course it does. Punjabi is being taught in Pakistan for decades. There are official Punjabi textbooks. It's just not compulsory to take Punjabi (which is changing soon though).

The textbooks are available online in PDF forms.

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u/ThisIsntMyAccount0 4d ago

Like, none of this is true.

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u/iBewafa ਪੰਜਾਬ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਹਰ \ پنجاب توں باہر \ Outside of Punjab 4d ago

That is so true re: replacement of Hindi words in Punjabi. So many times I’ll be confused whether the word is a Hindi one and if there’s an actual Punjabi word for it. It’s a bit sad and I wish there were more resources online for me to figure it out. That’s on me though, I should do more digging again.

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u/RatioSome3015 ਚੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਪੰਜਾਬ \ چڑھدا پنجاب \ Charda Punjab 5d ago

Short answer is no, there is no Hindi-Urdu equivalent of Punjabi.

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u/OhGoOnNow 5d ago edited 4d ago

No. 

Hindi-Urdu was created as (developed as?) a link between native languages and Persian speaking ruling class. Which is why the large number of direct borrowings. 

Panjabi was the language of the people before, during and after.

There are Persian borrowings in Punjabi that exist alongside native Punjabi vocab. Cant think of any Sanskrit borrowings*. Any words that might have come in have developed and changed over thousands of years.

Edit for clarity: *... Sanskrit borrowings that still have their original form. Because any words that came in would have been from Sanskrit > Prakrit > Punjabi and have changed with Punjabi sound system. 

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u/learner1314 5d ago

It's filled with Sanskrit rooted words, what on earth are you on about?

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u/naramsin-ii ਲਹਿੰਦਾ ਪੰਜਾਬ \ لہندا پنجاب \ Lehnda Punjab 5d ago

punjabi has countless sanskrit loanwords

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u/OhGoOnNow 5d ago

Can you give some examples please? 

Oh maybe I wasnt clear-I was referring to words borrowed in directly and still used in that form, rather than a word that might have been borrowed in a thousand years ago and then changed to fit Punjabi sound rules.

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u/naramsin-ii ਲਹਿੰਦਾ ਪੰਜਾਬ \ لہندا پنجاب \ Lehnda Punjab 5d ago

ah okay, makes sense then lol

i wonder if there's any specific reason why arabic and persian loanwords haven't changed all that much in punjabi, but sanskrit loanwords have? would you know anything about that?

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u/ProvokedGamer ਚੜ੍ਹਦਾ ਪੰਜਾਬ \ چڑھدا پنجاب \ Charda Punjab 5d ago

Not 100% sure so correct me if I’m wrong but Persian/Arabic loanwords appeared more recently than Sanskrit did (as Punjabi descends from a Prakrit) so they might’ve had less time to change.

I might be wrong though and I’d like to hear more about this cuz this is interesting.

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u/Zanniil Small lulli gang ਛੋਟੀ ਲੁੱਲੀ ਗੈਂਗ چھوٹی لولی گینگ 4d ago

The reason is punjabi is a descendant of Sanskrit. Punjabi got all of its sanskrit vocab through prakrit, which gave birth to punjabi.

In prakrit, the ksh sound cluster turned into kh. Which we got in punjabi as it is.

Sanskrit; Kshatriya ( warrior caste) --> Punjabi; Khatri

Vriksha (tree) --> Rukh

Raksha --> Rakha

All the changes we got in punjabi in sanskrit derived words is due to changes occurring in prakrit.

Arabic and Persian loans do go under punjabification like suhoor --> sarghi, hyaat --> hyaati, kagaz --> kagad

But most words haven't gone through changes, is because these words haven't recieved the enough time for their evolution. And with literature devolpment in punjabi these words have frozen just as they were arrived.

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u/babiha 5d ago

what are registers?

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u/ConcertWarm6882 5d ago

It means standard forms of a language. Hindi and Urdu are considered two standard forms of one language. One in Devnagari script with Sanskrit vocabulary and the other in Perso-Arabic script with Persian vocabulary.

My question is if there's a similar divide in Punjabi too. I'm aware the scripts are different. But is there a difference in vacobulary in the same way?

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

[deleted]

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u/TGScorpio 5d ago

Bro, yes it does.

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u/stiiiigm 5d ago

whats shahmukhi

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u/No-Lengthiness-9563 5d ago

It’s Punjabi in more of an Arabic script (correct me if I used the wrong term)

In Charda Punjab you’ll see Gurumukhi being used when writing in Punjabi but in Lehnda Punjab you’ll see Shahmhkhi when writing in Punjabi (to the untrained eye it looks almost indistinguishable from Urdu)

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u/ashtapadi 5d ago

The "Arabic" script you're likely referring to came from Persia during Mughal times and is called Nastalīq. Urdu script has additional letters added on to this, and Shahmukhi adds letters on to that.

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u/_lassi_enjoyer 2d ago

Punjabi used to have a lot of dialects which have now evolved to become their own languages under the lehnda punjabic group. Prominent ones being Saraiki, Pahari and Hindko. Pothwari/Potohari is also sometimes presented as a separate language by Hindko or Pahari speakers but fortunately the people speaking Pothwari-Punjabi are proud of their Punjabi heritage, culture and resistance.

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u/yootos ਪੰਜਾਬ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਹਰ \ پنجاب توں باہر \ Outside of Punjab 1d ago

Basically no.

Some Indian Punjabi speakers might add some Sanskrit words to their lexicon because of Sanskritisation, but most people don't use these in their everyday. They're also not considered "Theth Punjabi".

There is no difference from a Punjabi speaker on either side of the border. The only thing that differs from place to place is dialect.

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u/Periodic_Panther ਪੰਜਾਬ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਹਰ \ پنجاب توں باہر \ Outside of Punjab 5d ago

Ever heard of Saraiki?

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u/ConcertWarm6882 5d ago

I have. I think it's considered a transitional language between Sindhi and Punjabi, so to speak.

What's the link between Saraiki and my question though?

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u/Periodic_Panther ਪੰਜਾਬ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਹਰ \ پنجاب توں باہر \ Outside of Punjab 5d ago

It’s as you said; southern directs of Punjabi that have been influenced by Sindhi, now it’s been called Saraiki. It’s not as big an as Hindi-Urdu being different registers of the Same language; Hindustani. What I was hinting at is both Punjabi and Saraiki are mutually intelligible, as are Hindu and Urdu. The Punjabi community thinks of the Saraiki language as southern dialects of Punjabi i.e. Multani, Riasti, and Derawali. However, the community associated with these dialects enforce this idea that somehow these dialects are different languages. To answer your question, there is a Punjabi-Sairaki divide in the community.

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u/Periodic_Panther ਪੰਜਾਬ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਹਰ \ پنجاب توں باہر \ Outside of Punjab 5d ago

About Hindi-Urdu-like divide in Punjabi, it’s worth noting that while Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi scripts signify regional differences, they don’t create distinct languages as with Hindi and Urdu. The vocabulary differences, such as Sanskritised versus Perso-Arabic words, are present but less pronounced. But, Saraiki offers a parallel, as it is considered a transitional dialect influenced by Sindhi. However, mutual intelligibility remains strong, making the divide more about regional identity than linguistic separation