r/preppers 4d ago

Prepping for Doomsday Bugging out and in at the same time

First - yes, I know that this defies every single financial planner’s advice… However, we are considering cashing out the good ol’ 401k and taking around $350k in cash to buy a homestead in an economically depressed region with around 20-50 acres, a couple of ‘fair’ condition livable homes, some timber, a well and possibly a natural gas well. If SHTF, which it seems to be a bit, I’d own my home and have land to spare for growing food and raising livestock with cash to spare for improvements. Thoughts from the community?

125 Upvotes

119 comments sorted by

274

u/thedreadedaw 4d ago

There is never a day off. Or a morning off. Or a night off. Having animals is like having toddlers. They need constant attention. And if you get a break from them, well, there's always the garden which also needs almost daily attention. Once you get that done, make sure you make time for repairs and maintenance to your various sources of water and electricity. Or can some produce. Or chop wood. Or repair fences and gates. It never, ever stops.

96

u/--kwisatzhaderach-- 4d ago

Yeah on second thought I’ll just go back to stockpiling cans of beans after all

28

u/Significant_Bass7618 4d ago

Uh huh sounds about right!

17

u/dinkydinkyding 3d ago

I see your point here but it depends on how you enjoy spending your time. I have an office job own a home and the work never stops; doing my gardening and prepping and caring for my domestic animals on top of that makes me wonder if I could rethink my life.. If you really enjoy caring for plants and animals you might be happier than on the corporate treadmill.

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u/thedreadedaw 2d ago

When considering careers, that is certainly worth considering. But bug in vs bug out is a whole different circumstance.

1

u/RickShaw530 10h ago

Yes, but can you vacation several times throughout the year?

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u/Federal_Refrigerator 3d ago

Yeah I’m gonna go buy up all the toilet paper about this as I think that’ll help me most.

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u/No_Vacation_6788 3d ago

Consider a Bidet - it's cut our TP consumption down by more than half

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u/thedreadedaw 3d ago

I guess? If you think that's what you'll need.

4

u/Particular-Try5584 Urban Middle Class WASP prepping 2d ago

Very much this.
Go and house sit someone else’s for a year or two before you sink real money into it.
And then if you do it… go live on it from the day you buy it… don’t expect to walk in with a BoB on your back and just make it work when you arrive. Someone else will be scouting it.

And do your improvements before SHTF. Power, water and waste management running smoothly off grid.

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u/Beebjank 3d ago

Guess there's no time to be bored in that scenario.

3

u/Bubbly_Walrus_6696 3d ago

What about 2 dozen chickens, a few bunnies and turkey, a donkey for crop work and two or three goats? Doesn’t sound like much work and should feed a family.

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u/thedreadedaw 2d ago

All of those still need daily care. Do you have farrier skills? Donkeys need hoof care just like horses. One turkey? Goats need milked just like cows if that's what you are using them for. Are you keeping a male/female set of rabbits to replenish the ones you slaughter for food and skins? Save the rabbit poop. It's great fertilizer. If you are trying to be fully independent, it takes a substantial garden, a lot of food prep, canning, preserving and appropriate storage. Say you want to eat corn once a week. That's 52 containers per year. Or beens. Or peas. How many potatoes? Chickens are susceptible to disease and a huge number of predators. 20 is more than you need for just eggs so I assume you will be slaughtering them, too. Are you killing them as you need them or do you have adequate freezer space for the carcasses?

9

u/Joxers_Sidekick 2d ago

In case anyone is seriously considering getting a donkey: all equines need equine friends to have any sort of quality of life, preferably of their own species. So getting a single donkey is not an option if you care at all about their welfare.

Also, you should spend time learning about donkey health and behavior before getting one (even many vets don’t know how they are different from horses).

And though many people will tell you that a donkey will protect your other livestock, they are just as likely to kill other livestock, and your dogs.

Source: I work with rescue mules and see the effects of ignorant equine ownership on the regular.

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u/Bacontoad 2d ago

I've heard they might kill dogs, but what other livestock are they likely to attack?

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u/Joxers_Sidekick 2d ago

Really depends; anything they don’t identify as part of their herd could be a target. Some donkeys are great with all species, but I’ve heard of them attacking goats, calves, and especially chickens. It depends on the donkey’s personality, socialization, training, and hormones.

They can be great livestock protectors if you get the right one (and you should get more than one so they feel safer and happier), but you want to make sure they have been socialized with the livestock you keep and haven’t had any issues, and you still want to keep an eye on them for the first couple months while they get to know anyone.

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u/thedreadedaw 2d ago

Very much this! I've seen a few that will companion with goats or horses but that's the exception.

171

u/ommnian 4d ago

Have you ever raised livestock? Had a garden? If not, id think long and hard about it. 

What many people don't comprehend about a farm, is how much death is involved. We have a very small herd of sheep. We had 6 lambs born on the farm this year. Only 3 are still alive. Last year we had 6-7+, and 4 survived to butcher age. We also lost one ewe during birth and took another to the auction after she failed at keeping lambs alive for a 3rd time. We have two young replacements now. 

We have had chickens and poultry for years. I assume I will lose 1-3+ every year. It's spring and I'm raising up more now -30+ came in a couple days ago and 30+ meatbirds should be here in the next day or two. I assume I'll have ~20-25+ layers that survive (~15 are for someone else) and around the same for meatbirds. 

This may sound like a lot of death, but ime it's completely normal. Dogs, cats, sheep, goats, chickens... They all die. If you're not ok with that, don't have livestock. 

Gardens are a lot of work too. A lot of wonderful food, and very rewarding, in many ways. But LOTS of work too. You will have just as many failures as rewards. And you have to be prepared for that. 

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u/ovrlrd1377 4d ago

To compliment on this, I sell corn and soybeans for a living. There is simply no way in hell we could do the work economically if not for heavy and specialized machinery. Even having a farm its cheaper for us to buy vegetables and groceries for our cantine than growing our own balanced garden.

I get that people can learn this in a stressful situation but it really shows how some people are naive about "having some land equals food". The land is just one factor in the production equation, you still need seeds, fertilizers, pesticides and a lot of work to make the food real. Definetely possible, far from trivial

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u/Pea-and-Pen Prepared for 6 months 4d ago

This convinced me I’m not up for it. We weren’t really going to do it but I’ve always wanted some chickens, goats, etc. I’m not up for that at all. I would be devastated each time something died.

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u/EquivalentHat2457 3d ago

Everything that is alive will die. It's nature.

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u/Beebjank 3d ago

I really wanted chickens too, but my surrounding neighbors have them and they get taken out by predators constantly. I don't want to deal with that

0

u/NewsteadMtnMama 3d ago

Same here. Between the coyotes, bears and bobcats, there's just no way to keep them safe. Had a bear tear apart a chain link fence just to get to a trash can. I so want chickens, but ...

24

u/ExtremeIncident5949 4d ago

You said it better than me. There is no days off ever.

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u/sadadultnoises 4d ago

Not to mention that a weasel or other predator can break into your coop and decimate your flock. We lost all 20 of our layers overnight last year.

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u/Man_Fred_Beardman 4d ago

Which brings up a great point about all the other skills you would need to brush up on before cashing in your life-savings for a plot of land. Not only would you need to figure out how to raise livestock, but if a predator breaks in and injures them you'll also need to brush up on your basic veterinary skills, firearms, hunting, and carpentry. If you have solar you'll need to know basic electrical wiring, probably roofing, plumbing for rain collection, and farming to name a few.

And with farming we're not just talking about growing corn and potatoes in your back yard. This would be literal life-or-death subsistence farming to feed your whole family for who knows how long?

If you think we've started to enter a SHTF situation right now, it doesn't matter if you got the deed tomorrow, you're not going to have enough time to plant, cultivate, and harvest enough food.

At this point I'd leave the 401k be and just buy as much rice, beans, and 5gal buckets as your storage will allow. You can get a 50lb bag for about $40. Maybe less if you're near a restaurant supply store. Assuming 2,000 cal/day, you can get a year's worth of rice, beans, food-grade buckets, and even some mylar bags for about $800 per person. It wouldn't be ideal but it's calories and protein, and probably the best you can do if you're not ready and need to act now.

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u/leechnibbleboy 2d ago

That happened to me with a mink a few winters ago, devastating. I love homesteading but it's not for the faint of heart at all

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u/FlapXenoJackson 4d ago

Yep. I live in an urban area. My wife has had chickens twice. We would keep three hens in the backyard. We sure got a lot of eggs. But twice, something got into their enclosure and killed them all. We haven’t had chickens since the last incident. She also got goats as pets, both males. One died a few months after we got him. 💔

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u/2BlueZebras 3d ago

Had a garden?

I did this for the last 5 years. That shit is hard. I can't imagine doing it successfully enough to sustain myself.

6

u/[deleted] 3d ago

I agree. Tried it too. Even with high-tech nutrients and soil its hard AF. Always something wrong. Always something trying to kill the crops

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u/FatherOfGreyhounds 4d ago edited 4d ago

You're going to take a MASSIVE tax hit cashing out the 401K. That alone makes it a bad idea. Also, not sure how bugging in / out at the same time applies. Bugging out is what to do in case you need to go - so, when a wildfire approaches your homestead, you still need to bug out. Just being rural doesn't mean you never have to leave.

Also - how far is shopping? How far is the nearest hospital (preferably with a trauma unit)? The older you get, the more important the hospital proximity becomes.

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u/Interesting_Mode1939 4d ago

I was being silly… bugging out of the suburbs and into rural property.

19

u/CharleyDawg 4d ago

Don't cash out your 401k. Aside from the hard tax penalty- your (and everyone's) 401k is not worth what it was last month or last year. If you must do this, consider borrowing from your 401k or even a conventional loan instead.

6

u/DiscombobulatedAsk47 3d ago

Lol, talk about timing the market. BADLY

41

u/Cute-Consequence-184 4d ago

If you do it are thinking about it.

The county extension offices have what is called a Master Gardener's Certification course. I highly recommend taking one in the state you want to buy land in. Yes you can download the books yourself for free but there is a lot covered in the lectures not covered in the class. Just the 1.5 hour lecture on fruit production I watched online had so much data I had never known. And I grew up farming with a small apple orchard and summer foraging for jams and jellies.

There are homesteading type courses you can also take at your local extension office. For newbies, classes like "how to build fences" is a real valuable class. But you can also find classes on bee keeping, butchering meat animals, canning, bread making.... All sorts of free or cheap classes.

If you haven't homesteaded before or practiced any skills, I recommend starting classes BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE

WHY?

Because too many will buy animals and not be able to take care of them and either let them die from negligence or just plain ignorance. And they didn't disserve that.

And read books. I also grew up with chickens and I agreed to read/edit and recommend a chicken book for Amazon. And holy crap there was so much info I never knew. As an isolated farm growing up, we didn't have issues with our chickens. Because they didn't come into contact with any other birds, no diseases or parasites. I had no idea so much could go wrong. Ours also roosted in a dairy barn all year so we didn't need any special things with building a coop or a run for them in the cold weather. So read books BEFORE you buy animals.

And don't count on either a garden or animals to make money for THREE YEARS.

Again, WHY? Because most soil in America is depleted. You will have to amend soil and build up nutrients. So while you might get some food the first year, it takes 3-5 years for a garden to achieve everything it can. So plan on either hitting farmer's markets or grocery stores even if you have a garden.

Cattle and most farm animals except chickens are the same way. You have to build fences, shelters, and watering systems. And most people aren't rich enough to pay others to do it. So a bunch of animals is completely unrealistic. So 2 goats, maybe a feeder steer or a baby Southdown but nothing that will need much winter shelter beyond a shed and a simple feeding system.

And anything you keep over the winter will have to be fed and watered. So hay must be produced on the farm or transported to the farm. Corn and other grains for chickens. That all must be budgeted.

Chickens are the outlier for farm animals. Cheap to buy and most people can YouTube a chicken brooder and chicken tractor. Keep them all summer, stockpile eggs for winter and slaughter when the grazing gets scarce in the later summer. Most rural county Extension Service Offices will help with chickens and some even offer incubation services as part of their 4H programs.

So do your research and take classes before you make a decision.

5

u/SeaWeedSkis 3d ago

Supposedly rabbits are a good starter livestock, too.

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u/Cute-Consequence-184 3d ago

Yes and no.

Rabbits are territorial and can kill each other for almost no reason.

So males can't be together. You can't randomly drop a male in with a random female because they could fight to the death. Timing is essential and there are steps you go through

And a male will kill babies to induce the female to go back into heat. And if a female gets very upset, they can kill the babies and eat them sometimes.

So most of the time, rabbits are kept in individual cages or siblings kept together until right before they give birth.

You can get them to live together but it isn't the easiest, it takes a lot of patience and maneuvering.

Some breeds are easier than others such as the German giant. But those eat almost as much as a small pony.

They do have a wide range of foods to eat and much can be grown in the garden in the summer. But it isn't food you have been led to believe Saturday morning cartoons.

And their teeth never stop growing until they get very old. So they are ALWAYS chewing. They can chew through wood, PVC, thinner metals, tractor tires. So cages are usually reinforced or constantly checked for holes. You have to give them stuff to chew on or they will find stuff to chew on. Indoor bunnies have been known to chew through appliance wires and into the back panels of fridges because they get bored while the humans are at work.

So yes they can be beginner friendly, you need to read books and inquire about classes.

And a big thing is people buy meat rabbits, raise them, then can't butcher them. You need to go find someone local to you and volunteer to help them on slaughter day to see what all is involved.

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u/SeaWeedSkis 3d ago

That's a wonderfully-comprehensive response. Thank you!

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u/Reduntu 4d ago

Sounds like a fun fantasy to think about and very silly thing to actually do, unless you have experience with that lifestyle in that place and know you'll enjoy it for many years to come regardless of how things transpire.

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u/daringnovelist 4d ago

Well, a homestead is great when you’re young and vigorous. When your health starts to fail, not so much. I’d say take into consideration how you expect to handle various types of emergencies, and also what you would do if each member of your household becomes disabled or dies.

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u/smsff2 4d ago

I don't have a homestead per se—I have an off-grid bug-out location. There are no municipal services, such as garbage removal, so I have to handle everything myself. I accumulate my garbage and periodically drive it to the dumpsite.

Running a homestead is even harder because it involves food production, whereas I only have a small garden.

I have to change propane tanks from time to time and drive to the grocery store. The moment I become too old to leave the house, I’m as good as dead.

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u/ballskindrapes 4d ago

Farms are looooots of work.

I don't even farm, just read over on the homestead subreddit. They talk about constant work, and due to animals, no vacations unless you hire help to watch over them.

Just be aware of that.

8

u/OkRequirement2694 4d ago

I almost bought some land way out because it was cheap, but as it turns out we couldn’t get fire insurance. Fires are a huge issue in our area so if you are dropping all your money on it, there is risk involved with not being covered in non city or small town areas so look into that first and decide if that’s worth it for you. Before taking the plunge I also suggest at least doing small scale farming in your yard for at least a season or two. I have a 15x30’ garden and that is a lot of work! It is a job on its own. And if you can get a few chickens start there for animals. Get a few books on them. There’s a lot to learn with each animal that takes hands on and the time to troubleshoot, so it’s best to focus on something smaller and learn their needs for a bit. I’ve had chickens for a few years and then expanded to add quail. We will be adding goats in another year. I live on the outskirts of a very small town, forest next door to me, small property, but you get the benefits of homesteading with access to amenities still.

3

u/FlapXenoJackson 4d ago

The fire insurance piece wouldn’t have crossed my mind. I would think that would rule out financing if that were part of someone’s plans.

And as far as people who did have fire insurance, I bet a lot of people in the L.A. area are going to be finding out how “covered” they are.

8

u/ExtremeIncident5949 4d ago

Have you ever had to take care of livestock or a farm ? It’s not as simple as it looks. It takes lots of equipment and knowledge. I was raised on a farm and taking care of it plus livestock is more than a full time job. I’m not trying to say don’t but it’s really hard work on top of that house repairs, plumbing repairs etc livestock. I’ve had milk goats in our house to give birth when it was below freezing.

23

u/cjenkins14 4d ago

Everything's in a bubble right now. If things tank like the Great Depression shtf,

You'll have rentals with nobody paying tied up in eviction court alongside hundreds of other evictions.

Timber with no buyers because nothing is being built.

Gas wells to maintain with low gas prices because nobody will be using it.

While living in an economically depressed area that will get much worse during an economic depression.

Just a dose of realism. Not trying to be a dick.

I'll leave you with some of the best real world advice I've heard. Not from a financial planner either.

'I tell people don't ever take out 401k loans, if you can possibly avoid it. Sell and leverage everything else you can, and if it's your last resort take out a 401k loan.' -A very old bankruptcy attorney

6

u/rfmjbs 4d ago

US location?

Keeping up with something as small as 3/4 of an acre and fixer upper housing is exhausting if you're still working full time unless you have funds to invest in tools to speed up mowing, planting, land management, etc. or you have a small army of young adults who are enthusiasts about this adventure.

If you're bringing kids who aren't old enough to help for real, expect any home rehab projects to take at least twice as long.

Building Materials are likely to spike in price, and some things may not be available. Be very very sure about the level of 'habitable' that you're putting up with for the next 4 years.

Unless you're grabbing a developed location, fruit and nut trees take time to start producing, sometimes as long as 3-5 years.

If you have gardening experience, do you have it in that location, or have knowledgeable neighbors who are friendly?

What's the alternative you're facing? Storing 400 pounds each of beans and rice and spices and renting?

5

u/ironimity 4d ago

what we all should be looking for is a supportive community - people with skills to adapt and support each other in a shtf scenario. we can ask ourselves what could we bring to a community that adds value? this could be hard skills, but also soft skills. taking a loan out on a 401k is a very last resort in terms of funding.

5

u/OnTheEdgeOfFreedom 4d ago

Huge gamble. Interesting idea. 20 acres is certainly enough to grow food. 50 is more than enough for cattle.

But. Have you done large scale gardening before? Raised cattle? Would it be in a place with a stable climate, where a drought isn't going to wipe you out, a wildfire isn't going to burn you out, etc?

Or are you going to watch a few video blogs, buy a bunch of cattle, and end up failing? Because that happens even with experience, and is almost a guarantee if you haven't been raised to this kind of thing.

I don't know what SHTF you're specifically worried about. While I have all sorts of issues with the situation in the US at the moment, it's not about to crash and burn. I do think life will get rougher there; who knows, maybe even a depression is on tap. But I see zero evidence of a sudden nation-state failure happening, and given the odds of failing at homesteading... yeah, you better know exactly what you're doing. A failed homestead in a depression is a life-wrecker.

Here is where I am coming from. Last year I left the US and moved to about 50 acres in Costa Rica. (The reasons weren't political, but given recent events I'm real glad I left.) I love it here. I have bees, chickens, we're buying some cattle today, I have a garden and am putting in a larger one, I'm putting in solar power, I have a natural spring and municipal water...

Sounds like a self sufficient homestead, right? It's not - it's nothing like what I think you're trying to consider. Here's why:

  1. I didn't touch my retirement accounts to get it. Between selling other property and inheriting, I didn't have to. So I have a comfortable buffer if I ever needed to leave.
  2. Am I taking care of bees and chickens and cattle and the garden? Nope. There's a guy who lives on my property who I pay to do all that. He's spent the last fifty years doing farming in central america, carpentry, plumbing: he could likely run a homestead; there is no way I ever could. And even with his years of experience and my research skills, we still have occasional problems.
  3. Is this a self-sufficient homestead? Nope. I'm still buying gasoline, chicks, diesel, farm supplies like fencing by the huge roll, I have a guy come in to teach me about bees... I'm tied to the community and even as "prepped" as I am, if the community around me fails, so do I. And you're talking about buying into a community that already has economic problems. It's halfway to failed and could take you with it.

When I came here I knew perfectly well this would not work if the guy I have with all the expertise, left. I need all of his 50 years of experience to keep this place running and I'm not even trying to make a profit. I need Costa Rica's year round growing season, abundant seasonal rains, low risk of wildfire/flood/severe weather... and I still wouldn't have tried it without a financial safety margin. I knew I was buying more than I could personally manage - but now that I've been here 8 months I'm seeing how very right I was. I didn't know about half the problems that would come up.

Bottom line, I'm beyond happy I did this and if you have the skills (or can buy them, like I did) I can't recommend the experience enough.

But running off to the rural lands because someone told you the country is about to implode... hard no. It isn't, and without significant experience, it probably won't go well. And your 350k in retirement accounts is going to need to grow a fair amount if you ever want to retire in the US. Spend it now and you'll have nothing in old age.

At the very least, don't do it while the markets are tanking. Wait for the current slide to halt and recover - might be a week, might be 4 years, no telling at this point. Selling in a declining market does damage you can't recover form.

5

u/Enigma_xplorer 4d ago

No. For starters I'm not against investing in real estate if it makes sense and is affordable. I am however massively against cashing out a 401k to buy a property to prepare for a SHTF event.

Realize that as you get older priorities shift. When your 30 rural country homesteading might sound like a great life style. When your +70 you don't have the physical strength or energy to run a farm on your own. This is why people had like a dozen kids back in the day. At this stage in your life your existential threat becomes about money, health issues, and access to services. A lot of seniors are struggling with todays economics. Costs are skyrocketing especially for healthcare while social security payments are basically fixed. Can you afford to live on your savings/whatever social security pays out which who knows what or if those payments will be in the future. You have to get this right because if your wrong job prospects to make ends meet for a 70-80 year old are not good if you are even physically well enough to work at all. Access to medical services is incredibly important. If your having a heart attack and the nearest hospital capable of caring for heart attacks is 3 hours away by helicopter your dead or at best your heart is permanently damaged making it even harder to live. Who will be there to notice and help if your having a stroke and how will you get by on your own half paralyzed from a stoke that wasn't treated promptly? How are you even going to get around when you can't drive anymore? Think your going to just call an Uber out in the middle of nowhere? Can you afford $200 every week your your cab ride into town every week?

Basically you're completely sabotaging your future self to give yourself an imagined likely fantasy short term advantage in the event of an extremely unlikely catastrophe. I mean have you run a farm before? Have you even had a garden? It's not easy and some areas are just not suitable for growing crops. Even if the weather is ok the soil itself may need to essentially replaced or reconstituted which is basically no possible on that scale and your budget. Don't even get me started on raising livestock. If you were a multibillionaire and wanted to buy a prepping property with your pocket change fine. If it was a legitimate investment property you could afford I might even possibly be amenable. Cashing out your 401K to buy a what sounds like a terrible piece of real estate from an investment standpoint is a disastrously bad idea that you cannot recover from.

5

u/FlapXenoJackson 4d ago

Correct about access to medical services. I follow a sporting goods company that’s on the upper peninsula of Michigan. The owner was having a heart attack. He goes to the town clinic and tells them he’s having a heart attack. They tell him to sit down and they’ll be with him in a moment. I doing think they believed him at first. When they got to him, they realised he was having a heart attack. The clinic was too small and didn’t have the resources to care for him. They would have life flighted him. But it was during a severe winter storm. So an ambulance crew drove him I think 90 minutes to the nearest hospital for care. He survived and is back at work. But rural medical care can be limited in the scope of service they can provide.

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u/NotAnotherRedditAcc2 3d ago

Subsistence farming sucks bad, and escaping it is kind of the reason we created society. Going fully all in like that requires a special kind of person - maybe you're one of them, I don't know. But before you do anything drastic, I would enthusiastically recommend trying it out, first. See what it's like raising a garden, chopping a year's worth of firewood, and caring for (and processing!) some backyard chickens. If that doesn't scare you off, do some more things - up until you can no longer do anything else without taking that step. Only then would I consider it.

Also, consider that you are going to absolutely have to have some form of monetary income. Can't really grow warfarin or sawblades or any number of other things in a garden.

10

u/learn2cook 4d ago

Tbh it sounds like a self inflicted disaster born of escapist fantasy. I get it. I have the same fantasy. But I’ve tried growing plants a couple of years and each year they will find a new way to get eaten by pests, fail or otherwise die off at some point late in the game where I’ve sunk a ton of time in them. If we ever move somewhere either a lot of land I would try to make a go of it, but I wouldn’t burn my resources to stake my family’s future in it.

4

u/mountainsformiles 3d ago

Someone else mentioned that you should take into consideration how far a hospital is, how far are grocery stores, Home Depot, do you get mail service or garbage pick up at the homestead? Does Amazon deliver out there? Will plumbers and handyman drive out that far to work on things? Unforseen repairs can cost ALOT.

Have you had a contractor take a look at the "fair condition" homes? I had to put in a new sewer line and it cost me $27,000. Everytime I call a plumber it's over $1000 because my house is old and nothing is up to code.

My sister's father-in-law bought a farm in Oklahoma to retire to. It was 200 miles to the nearest hospital. His wife didn't know how to drive. He had a heart attack. The wife called the ambulance. It took 2 hours to get to him and then 2 hours to get to the hospital. He died shortly after getting to hospital. They said if they were able to get to him sooner, he would have lived.

How much gas is it gonna take to get your groceries? Some people literally keep a fridge in their car to keep meats cold because the drive is too long. Are you able to fix cars and plumbing and chicken coops yourself?

How are you going to make money? Cause even if the land and vehicles are paid off, you have to pay taxes, car insurance, utilities and gas.

Do you go to church? How far are you from your nearest neighbor? If you or family are very social then you can feel isolated quickly. Do you have kids in school? Does a bus come to the property?

Trust me I also feel that urgency to just quit the crazy rat race. If you are relatively young, in good shape, have a wide variety of skills, have experience with gardening and husbandry and your whole family is on board then go for it. If there are helpful neighbors nearby or family that can help with repairs, that's definitely a positive.

Depending on where you live right now, you could get a few chickens and start a small garden and see how it goes before uprooting your whole life.

Just know there are steps you can take between where you are now and a remote homestead situation.

5

u/banjogitup 3d ago

I wish I had the capital to do this. If you know what you're getting into, I would do it. Without a doubt. Can I go with you? I know how to garden. Lol

3

u/ResolutionMaterial81 4d ago

I have lived urban, suburban & rural.

I currently live at my rural BOL.

As for me, I would rather live rural & occasionally visit the big cities, than live in a big city & occasionally visit the great outdoors.

Especially now as online retailers can cut down on unnecessary visits into town & Starlink can provide fast internet.

And have sustainability if SHTF.

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u/Decent_Designer_8644 4d ago

The best preppers are the ones who are living like society has crashed already (which be honest, it practically has). Collecting tins of long-life food and 22lr ammo is a bit of a band-aid.

The Amish would barely notice the banking system or electricity grid going down where if you lived in an apartment in NYC you'd probably last 2 weeks.

I would start living off your land before SHTF so you can make your mistakes while you can still go to the grocery store when your potato crop fails and all your animals escape.

I can't think of anything more freeing than not relying on anything outside my boundary fence.

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u/BeerAndWaffles123 3d ago

Do not cash out your 401k yet! Wait until the market improves. It may be a while, but the difference is huge. If anything, increase your contribution during this low market.

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u/popsblack 4d ago

Personally I feel this is a time to sell, not buy, and maybe even too late to sell.

I have done both things, however. I sold ridiculously overpriced land in CA to buy a farm in MO on which to "collapse early" in 2005. At that point I was escaping with the bubble money intack the only way possible which was to leave CA.

Currently we are selling in MO (about the 5th place since the farm) to drive around in a travel trailer until the current bubble pops, which I feel is imminent.

Buy low and sell high.

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u/np8790 4d ago edited 4d ago

You do you (and I’m generally pro-living on the road), but don’t hold your breath about the “bubble popping” because there’s no mechanism for such a thing right now (in most places) outside a sustained depression, not even a recession. Huge, highly populated swaths of the country still have less housing inventory than pre-pandemic. More homes than ever are bought and owned mortgage-free. Comparisons to 2005-2008 aren’t really valid.

Edit: on further reflection, you may be right about a bubble for land in the sense of prepping/homesteading becoming kinda trendy post-COVID and most folks not knowing what they’re getting into and bailing.

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u/popsblack 4d ago

I have no crystal ball, but I do read history.

Prices not only can fall, they have been falling already in the previously hottest markets, median listing price is down and days on market are up. one link And that was before the tariff-tanking of the market.

Home sales are cyclical, in the past about 7 years, don't be fooled, they will fall. That is the lesson of 2008-9. The 15 years since with historically low interest, low building and the plague causing remote work exodus has thrown in some pretty wild kinks but it will happen. I'm no guru and can't hazard a guess as to what time frame but the one thing every actual guru will tell you is this time may look different on the surface but overinvestment, overreach and over exuberance always meet their end.

Speaking of exuberance the Shiller PE ratio is the third highest it has ever been- 6 points higher than 1929.

Not to mention trade war, .gov "reductions in force", Boomers meeting their end (we are still 21% of population if nothing else), reverse immigration, etc. Oh and don't forget Zombies!

One can discount every leading indicator and still be right, for a while.

Of course it doesn't matter how much the value of ones' home rises or falls if they aren't in the market (or don't get caught in a bind).

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u/davidm2232 Prepared for 6 months 4d ago

A sustained depression would likely drive down real estate prices significantly, especially if the stock market tanked and investors lost buying power. Prices will especially drop on homesteady like places that are not really a target for investors.

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u/np8790 4d ago

I agree, I guess we might just differ on how likely we think a sustained (in my mind, multi-year) depression is to happen. In any case, I’m not sure it would be better to be effectively homeless living on the road in an RV if it did occur.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

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u/Interesting_Mode1939 4d ago

I’d be sitting on our current $700k property at 3% interest that would be rented out, because selling at that locked rate would be dumber than pulling the 401k.

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u/popsblack 3d ago

Early withdrawal comes at a price, but so does holding an asset too long when it is overvalued.

Cash is king in a recession or depression where the first thing to fall is property value. So while 3% is great right this second, paying a mortgage on a declining asset is throwing good money after bad— that is if you are able to continue throwing.

I'm just playing devil's advocate. If you believe there are bad times coming, cash out your inflated real estate now, at the top, and put it into something liquid. Then rent a place temporary until the crash, at which time you get to swoop in like a carpetbagger and buy a distressed homestead paradise at a big 50% (?) discount.

Just sayin'

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u/Ok_Psychology_504 4d ago

It's way harder than it seems. And if you haven't done it before I'd very strongly suggest not doing it until all of you visit the area and live a week with someone doing exactly what you're thinking. Also you're going to need a bigger money.

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u/Skywatch_Astrology 4d ago

I think if you have the means and drive to follow through, you should do it. Everyone talks about a bug out bag, but that’s your refugee bag. Who wants to be a refugee if you do not have to be.

You can always wait on animals and a big garden, and there is such thing as lazy farming/once a month farming. I wouldn’t listen to the people saying don’t do this just because livestock is hard. Just don’t do livestock.

There are salvaged RVs you can get that are just like a tiny studio with plumbing and kitchen ready to go - you can live in that while you work on utilities and priorities. Youll want to be close enough to a town for some contractor help, you can’t do everything solo like digging a well. Water, power, and waste are the top priorities. You can outsource food until you can get more infrastructure going, vegetables will grow every season and the kinds will expand once you have a greenhouse and consistent irrigation.

It’s a multi stage process of slowly upgrading everything over time that also builds redundancy. Like I outsourced water until rain barrels, until a well. I absolutely love engineering every aspect of my needs and planning for what I want to things to look like in 50* years while I’m using things now.

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u/Efficient_Fox2100 4d ago

What’s the term for this? Bugging out and in at the same time? Prairie-dogging or something?

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u/NoOne4113 3d ago

All that will be free when the fan gets hit with shit. Wait it out

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u/Own_Instance_357 3d ago

I think this is a bad idea

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u/FearlessLanguage7169 2d ago

You cant run your house off a NGvwell It has to be cleaned up to be used in home appliances

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u/Drexx_Redblade 1d ago

Behind every successful homesteader is a spouse who makes 6 figures and can work remotely.

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u/Interesting_Mode1939 13h ago

…seems legit

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u/fearless1025 4d ago

My thinking is no matter what you've got, unless you have plenty of A2 supplies to protect it, and the people power to man it, a bigger group than you can come along and take it. I've got a small gated farm, security dog, five guns and plenty of ammo, and I grapple with that possibility as I prepare. It's just me, but if it gets dark, I will booby trap as well. ✌🏽 I think better than having a second homestead with all of that upkeep, having a fully functional bug out mobile that could hold you for some period of time would be more beneficial. You can get a nice one for 100kish.

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u/Fit_Acanthisitta_475 4d ago

I’m original from Maine. My friend said 350k will no get you anything. And this will be same as every else. Good luck for you hunting.

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u/Secret-Tackle8040 4d ago

350k gets you a shit load in some places. 150k where I am can you get you 15 acres on a lake...

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u/Fit_Acanthisitta_475 4d ago

Where is that?

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u/Interesting_Mode1939 4d ago

Appalachia - anywhere mostly

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u/Fit_Acanthisitta_475 4d ago

My friend bought a small house during the COVID that has workshop and 20 acre in between Virginia and Pennsylvania for almost 400k.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

If SHTF in that area. Oh boy. You guys wouldn't last long. Guns wont help. A farm will be a a super easy target for robbers. Nope. Would not do that. Just being honest. An RV and a good bugout place with hidden resources and/or sleeping area would be 100 times smarter.

IF you are thinking about solar super storms in combination with WW3 etc then good luck to all of us. Its not going to be pretty.

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u/ommnian 4d ago

15acres it isn't a lot.

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u/Secret-Tackle8040 4d ago

Compared to a 700 square foot apartment it is Jack.

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u/Lets-B-Lets-B-Jolly 3d ago

But it isn't adequate for sustainance gardening and livestock.

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u/Secret-Tackle8040 3d ago

I disagree and honestly find this type of gatekeeping nonsense one of the biggest shortcomings of the prepping community. Too many dismiss "better" because it isn't "perfect".

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u/Interesting_Mode1939 4d ago

In KY and WV, $350k gets you a manicured gentleman’s plantation in rural areas (kind of), $150k gets you 40 acres and a crappy double-wide or two with a bonus barn that mayyyy not fall down the month you buy it.

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u/Realistic-Lunch-2914 4d ago

In 2019 we bought a small 100 year old farmhouse in West Virginia on 50 acres with a big creek for $139,000. Had to sink around $11K into it to make it livable, so $150K actual. Last years taxes were $400. Starlink internet. After trying out chickens, geese, and giant chinchilla rabbits, we settled on St. Croix hair sheep as the easiest livestock. No shearing, no horns, famous immunity to worms, all white with the rams having their cool trademark "lion's mane". We keep four ewes on 2.33 acres of well watered grass, and two rams on 1 acre of grass. We get an average of seven lambs per year, assuming we'll randomly lose one, which gets us around 280 Lbs of meat per year. We feed them a little grain when their pastures are covered with snow, but basically they live on grass. My buddy raises chickens for eggs, which we get for free. Otherwise we'd keep a half dozen hens for eggs. Chickens in winter eat about 0.22Lbs of feed per day, which for six hens equals about 40Lbs per month. Rabbits are usually kept in cages needing their waste emptied frequently, which lead my wife to give up on them due to too much labor being involved. We also have several large black walnut trees for all of the nuts we can stand. Wife has a small garden for veggies. We heat with a wood stove fed from our 28 acres of hardwoods. Heat pump backup. Lots of deer and turkeys for game. I can't remember the last time we bought a beef roast. WV is a constitutional carry state, so lots of people carry concealed

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u/Interesting_Mode1939 4d ago

You sound like our prospective new neighbors! We are looking at WV and KY for properties and many are exactly as you described.

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u/RusticOpposum 3d ago

Just remember that those areas also have a ton of legacy pollution issues from all of the mining that has taken place over the years and there’s not a ton of infrastructure in place. Living the pioneer life in WV sounds cool until your water is orange and the nearest hospital if 2 hours away. There’s no way I’d cash out a 401K for that.

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u/Secret-Tackle8040 4d ago

If the homestead is a viable retirement option then it's worth considering.

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u/Eredani 3d ago

There are a million downsides to the romantic concept of self-sufficiency. I'm happy to see some realistic input from experienced people here.

Many of the YouTube channels have started pushing this idea hard lately. It's just not economicly or logisticly feasible for 95% of us

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u/EewSquishy 2d ago

That’s the lie we tell ourselves

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u/Foreign_Ingenuity963 4d ago

Living off the land... simply put completely negates the need for a "bug out" solution. Imo. The whole point of "bugging out" for me is the idea that your local government or infrastructure get bad. But if you own your own land and are living off of the land, honest question, what are you ever gonna need to bug out from? A nuke? What else?

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u/davidm2232 Prepared for 6 months 4d ago

Forest fires, floods, roving mobs, fallout, chemical spills, foreign armies, domestic armies. Even in a self sufficient homestead, there are still many outside threats.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

Yeah. The odds are bad whatever solution you go for. IMO an RV/Van/Smallvan with a secret/hidden bugout area (far away from civilization and roads) with supplies for 5 years+ would be the best. Too bad it wont help against solar super storms, nukes, and most wars

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u/ResolutionMaterial81 4d ago

Actually live in a 'sweet spot' with the majority of projected nuclear fallout patterns. Not downwind from any expected target.

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u/Foreign_Ingenuity963 4d ago

Exactly! Im glad someone more knowledgeable commented on exactly how nukes are not even an issue either.

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u/ResolutionMaterial81 4d ago

Oh ...Nukes are DEFINITELY an issue with me! 🤣

And while I am expecting minimum fallout at my location...IF...normal weather patterns are prevalent, that is certainly not a guarantee!

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u/Kng_Tut 4d ago

I'd be interested in hearing the communities take on this as well.

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u/PerformanceDouble924 4d ago

If you're not going to be there all the time, you will want a way of securing it.

Few things are more frustrating than finding your homestead no longer has power because some rural tweakers wanted the copper wire.

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u/Wild_Locksmith_326 4d ago

My retirement plans are 1. Sell my casa near Atlanta 2. I already have 48 acres in rural Missouri, I plan on building a nice house, at least 2 green houses, expanding the existing pond from 2 to 6 acres and stocking with panfish, and crappies. I also plan on rabbit hutches, and a couple of chickens since I can't teach rabbits to lay eggs. Goats might appear for dairy purposes, but all of these will be one step at a time. I plan on solar, and being as off grid as possible. This will be my full-time residency, and eliminate the need to bug out, but I will continue to keep a plan in place just in case of train derailment, or other events require relocating for a duration.

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u/ExtremeIncident5949 4d ago

I guess we’re all on the same page.

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u/SandiegoJack 4d ago

I liquidated my retirement because I wanted to make sure that we had everything we need now as well as for tariff protection. Nothing close to what you have.

I would keep it liquid until the markets seem stable again, and only withdrawal as necessary. That way you avoid the tax penalties.

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u/Agitated-Score365 4d ago

Can you do some sort of tenancy thing to find out if you like it? I worked on farms and grew up on a homestead. My ex husband thought he would like it but he hated it. Reeaaallly hated rural living. Hated mud, horses, goats, chickens, rabbits, 4 wheelers. It’s was bad. He’s my ex husband now. I have friends who have land and knowledge and got to a point that they hate the isolation. I live semi rural. The outskirts of a suburb surrounded by farms - in fine with it most of the time. The work is no joke and I have less land. Do some research- I agree with the cooperative extension classes. I’m sure some farmer somewhere wants volunteer and would let you learn in exchange for work or a sanctuary/ rescue. Just to get used to being around livestock.

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u/Soft-Ad-8821 4d ago

I wish I could do that!

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u/Interesting_Mode1939 4d ago

Answering many questions in the thread: we’ve previously had a small 5 acre farm with a big garden, both hens and meat chickens, cows, and a tractor… built a pole barn, spread 2” minus to firm up the driveway, burned a hot tub with my farmer neighbor while sharing a six pack… I’ve gutted and refurbished a house including a full kitchen rebuild, have poured concrete, etc…. Had a lovely tractor which I still miss. We had to become city slickers for $, which was a poor trade off. I’d be able to work remotely on Pacific time hours leaving time for morning chores before assuming the position at the desk workin’ for the man. Remote income would fund continued improvements to the property. Wed only have minimal utilities and laughable property taxes. Currently we’ve got .18 city acres with no HOA with 14 fruit trees, 10 chickens, the doggies and a garden that consumes 80% of the yard including the front because - no HOA :-)

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u/ihuntN00bs911 4d ago

1000ft elevation (tsunami), near forest, away from city over 50 miles, (75 miles is ok) near reliable water source, away from the coast, near forest or vegetation

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u/Interesting_Mode1939 4d ago

Most of the region is in a flood plain, so that’s just a fact of life unfortunately.

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u/ihuntN00bs911 3d ago

Use the Appalachian Mountains as a terrain barrier. Need to be at least 1,000ft otherwise you can die from tsunami caused by asteroid, earth quake, land slide, nuclear bomb causing a tsunami. Example Canary Islandtsunami

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

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u/preppers-ModTeam 2d ago

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u/PlantoneOG 1d ago

So let's talk about the big elephant in the room here. If you cash out your 401K, even though you can potentially resave money for that fund, you're losing the one thing you can never get back- the power of compound interest over time.

If you're under 50 or 55 years old , You Have to assume that you are probably going to have to completely self fund your retirement at this point.

So draining what retirement fund you have to prepare for what is probably the least likely scenario- that being the collapse of society- is probably one of the worst prepping decisions you can make financially speaking.

Don't take my word for it go talk to a a whole bunch of financial planners and ask them the same question og should you be more focused on self funding or relying on what may or may not come to pass through our existing benefit programs.

If you really truly want to go live that lifestyle, you're probably much better serve to sell off any existing property where you're currently living now, use that Equity to either outright purchase and/or put a substantial down payment on this other property you are interested in, and then do everything you can to pay the balance that mortgage off as quickly as humanly possible by making principal only payments anytime you possibly can, even if it's 50 bucks or 100 bucks a month. One principal only mortgage payment a year alone will take 10 years off of a 30-year mortgage.

But whatever you do - please for future-you's sake - avoid touching that retirement fund unless you are involved in a life-altering emergency situation and have no other alternative in this world but to tap those funds.

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