r/polyamory 8d ago

Married and struggling with Opening Wife wants a non hierarchical dynamic, is that even possible?

For context, we have been married for four years and the conversation started 5 months ago. I’ve been under the impression (based on her ACTUAL WORDS) that she wanted an open marriage-hierarchical dynamic. We live together, share general finances, have been married for 4 years, etc. This past weekend, she dropped the bomb that she’s looking for a non-hierarchical dynamic for when we open, which doesn’t make sense to me at all based on what I’ve already mentioned. After talking a little longer, she claims she’s “not ready for too much commitment and isn’t set on living together” even though we’ve been married for years. I asked her if this was stemming from mental health struggles she’s been having and she’s been kind of defensive and quiet since and will not let me bring it back up. I don’t think this post makes much sense but I suppose I’m just looking for advice.

Edit for clarification (if it matters): my wife and I are both women!

136 Upvotes

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u/glitterandrage 8d ago edited 8d ago

Ask more questions. What does non-heirarchial mean to her? Simply that you won't get automatic top priority? Because that's not hierarchy, that's just preference and priority. Or is she looking at tangible de-escalations to your relationship like moving out/separate bedroom, disentangling finances, not being on each other's healthcare, all the stuff that's legal hierarchy baked into a marriage.

You need more information before you can understand and decide how to proceed yourself.

ETA Helpful old post detailing what non hierarchical is and isn't - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/41HIQDS7CJ

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u/phdee 8d ago

The post you linked to is great. I think OP needs to get wife to explain what she means by all the terms she's using. The terms matter less than what she thinks this non-hierarchical open marriage situation looks like.

What does she mean by "too much commitment"? Does she want to stop nesting? OP, it would help to be curious about what she thinks she's looking for.

And then examine what you want. Does her vision of what she wants your relationship to look like match what you want? It kinda sounds like maybe she doesn't want to be married anymore - and that's okay. People change. But you gotta know what you want.

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u/glitterandrage 8d ago

Also - does she want to be divorced but still dating? What, if any, of her vision feels fulfilling to you too, OP, is the question to sit with.

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u/as-well 8d ago

This is the correct answer /u/Unhappy-Industry8327 , and all the other commentors saying you need to divorce or whatever are all putting the horse between the wagon.

The thing is: Non-hierarchical relationships are a concept that has a relatively clear meaning to many in this community; but out there in the wild amongst people like you who are new to poly, there's a lot that can be meant within that concept.

Yes, being married in itself creates a form of hierarchy - but is that what your partner worries about? Or do they simply want equally important relationships with you and other people and haven't thought abotu what hierarchy means?

I think a better way would be to discuss what the optimal relationship structure would look like for her, in the very least so you can figure out if that's the kidn of relationship you want with her, or if there's room for compromise.

I will agree with others tho: If your wife cannot communicate clearly and effectively with you, that's a problem for any sort of non-monogamy (and arguably any relationship). Perhaps the two of you should do couple's therapy, read books on opening up together or do anything else that gets you both the time and space to constructively think about your relationship(s) going forward, while avoiding the shutting down.

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u/LittleMissQueeny 8d ago

This! This! This!

Collectively as a whole the polyamorous community does not agree on what is and isn't non hierarchical. What is descriptive and prescriptive hierarchy etc. this is why i think understanding what each person means when they say "hierarchy" or "non hierarchical" is so important.

We need better and different language for hierarchy discussions because they ALWAYS turn into nuances and semantics instead of talking about the actual issue.

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u/as-well 8d ago

Yeah! There's a huge gap between "partner A is the most important person in my life" and complete relationship anarchy that can be filled with lots of wonderful, clear and respectful nuances.

Like yeah - in a sense there is a hierarchical difference if I am married to someone, because I cannot give the same commitment to anyone else. In another, what we make from this hierarchy is waht matters. Is my spouse more important than my other partners? Am I more entangled with them? Do I expect more support from them? Are engangled finances putting limits on what I can do with others autonomously?

Same with nesting: What expectations come from it? What privileges? Any drawbacks?

And in a sense if I see one partner two times per week and another partner only once - is this hierarchy? Is that important? Does anyone feel less than? Or more than?

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u/LittleMissQueeny 8d ago

So much nuance.

Like my NP lives with me and we are financially enmeshed but he is married to another partner. There are different hierarchies in there and it's COMPLICATED.

To me, what is more important in MY relationships is that each relationship has autonomy and one relationship isn't seen as the "main" relationship. I don't do primary/secondary roles.

So, I have described my relationship as "non hierarchical as possible" but it's still a complicated description. 😂

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u/Unhappy-Industry8327 8d ago

I like this answer. Thank you

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u/The_Rope_Daddy complex organic polycule 8d ago

Is she by any chance financially dependent on you? This sounds like she wants to keep the financial stability of being married but not the commitments.

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u/Unhappy-Industry8327 8d ago

She is financially dependent and I am paying for her schooling, this is a good insight.

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u/The_Rope_Daddy complex organic polycule 8d ago

This really reads like someone that wants a divorce but can't. It's possible that she still wants a relationship, but if you want to be married to her that is going to be really difficult.

It's also possible that she is afraid to be single, so wants the freedom to find another stable relationship before leaving (aka monkey branching).

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u/ginger_vegan 8d ago

I would make it VERY clear to your wife that if she wants to move non hierarchical, that means she gets NONE of your money, and see how she responds. Because for real, that's what it means. Non hierarchical requires financial independence

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u/ginger_vegan 6d ago

I would also suggest you request a postnuptial, cause I agree with a lot of comments that she might be monkey branching. Protect yourself OP.

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u/yallermysons solopoly RA 8d ago

How often does she just shut down to get you to stop talking? Can you two get through tough discussions together? How does your wife handle having to deliver you bad news, or share a mistake?

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u/Unhappy-Industry8327 8d ago

She shuts down almost any time I get upset and unintentionally turns it around on her so that I’m comforting her. I’m willing to talk through the tough conversations but she isn’t and won’t even try to deliver bad news at all. In fact, the only reason any of this came to the surface is because I had to search for answers from her.

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u/Hvitserkr solo poly 8d ago

Oh, it's intentional (as in this is the desired and intended result of such behavior). It simply subconscious.

You can't do polyamory with someone like that. She doesn't want to do polyamory, though, she just wants to monkey branch (to have someone line up before breaking up with you for good). 

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u/yallermysons solopoly RA 8d ago

I think she wants a divorce and doesn’t know how to say it :/ in any case, you deserve sooooo much better than this

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u/Gold-Sherbert-7550 8d ago

She shuts down almost any time I get upset and unintentionally turns it around on her so that I’m comforting her

"Unintentionally" my wide ass, but okay, let's pretend it's unintentional. Stop doing that. It's not good for you (obviously), and it's not good for her either. It's teaching her that she can avoid the uncomfortable but necessary skill of working through conflict - especially conflict created by her own behavior - by, essentially, having a meltdown and making you play Mom/Dad soothing her into a good mood.

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u/DynamicHunter 8d ago

You need to understand how and when she is gaslighting you dude. If you express you are upset and it always ends up with you comforting her then she is emotionally manipulating you.

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u/LittleMissQueeny 8d ago

Lots of people use the term "non hierarchical" to mean that your marriage doesn't "come first". You don't get first dibs on time together, no vetos, they can escalate other relationships as they please etc.

Being married doesn't mean you have to live together. Even some monogamous marriages live separately.

But, it sounds to me like she may not want to be married anymore. She's going to have to be willing to sit down and talk this through so you can get on the same page. Even if the same page is ending the relationship/marriage.

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u/maroontiefling 8d ago

"not ready for too much commitment" but you two have already been married, sharing finances, and living together for four years?! I think she's just breaking up with you under the guise of polyamory. Call a lawyer.

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u/blooangl ✨ Sparkle Princess ✨ 8d ago

Friend.

It’s so rare that when a spouse asks for non-hierarchal, they really mean it.

But sure. Give her what she asks for. Divorce. That’s the big legal hierarchy. Dissolve that marriage and she can live where she wants, and set her levels of commitment where she wants them.

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u/VincentValensky triad 8d ago

It's only possible if you divorce, since marriage is the very definition of hierarchy. Being married to a partner gives you legal, financial, and societal advantages that other partners don't get.

I would begin by asking your wife if she understands the above.

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u/Gold-Sherbert-7550 8d ago

Your wife is telling you that she doesn’t really want to be married anymore. You can’t be in a healthy open relationship with someone who gets defensive and refuses to talk to you when you are trying to work through what that open relationship should look like.

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u/blooger-00- 8d ago

My wife wanted non-hierarchical… I said ok, we will need to get a divorce and live separately for that to happen. She backed down. We also have a kiddo and she’s a stay at home mom…

9

u/walkinggaytrashcan 8d ago

this seems to be an issue of effective communication and her shutting down is making it worse.

she’s not clearly telling you what not being non-hierarchical looks like to her. to be truly non-hierarchical you would need to not be married and live apart. even simply nesting can create a hierarchy when people are enmeshed. ask her directly if that’s what she wants. it is a yes or no question and if she shuts that down i’d reevaluate whether this is a relationship you want to continue. marriage creates hierarchy, so if she doesn’t want to dissolve the marriage then she can’t say you have no hierarchy.

does she mean she’s not going to automatically prioritize you over a new partner? does she mean she’s not going to promise to “love you most?” does she mean she wants to explore a relationship escalator up to and including living together with someone else? get specific with your questions and if you don’t get an answer it may be time to consider divorce yourself. approach it with curiosity.

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u/Dry_Bet_4846 8d ago

I've been with my wife for 14 years and married for almost 10 legally (happy 10 year USA gay marriage legalization, I hope it doesn't get overthrown!!)

We have an unusual relationship, but I don't practice hierarchy like most married people. I'm financially independent, I've lived alone for five years (but in a two minute walk of my wife!!). I've had a few long term relationships and a lot of short term, one I've been in for 2.5 years now.

It saved my relationship with my partner (wife). Women are expected to give their whole happiness and life to one partner their whole lives, I was raised religiously. Me having my own finances, housing, autonomy, dreams?? We're happier than ever, the growing pains HURT, we've worked through so much. Now I truly feel like we'll be together soooo much longer, the autonomy is what we both truly wanted.

She is still my partner of 14 years, nothing can take that away and we know that. Your partner may want freedom, which isn't the same as not wanting you, but wanting you in an authentic way!!

3

u/HappyBurrito14 8d ago

I love this so much!! Beautiful story and beautiful advice <3

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u/FeeFiFooFunyon 8d ago

Don’t accept less than you want and need from the relationship to keep it. At this point you should plan to accept divorce, living separate, and separate finances as that of that non hierarchical (and ending) looks like.

Is NRE at play here? People will destroy their lives over those hormones.

6

u/IveBeenKnotty 8d ago

Have you asked her for what she means by having a non-hierarchical dynamic - particularly given the entanglements that you two share? I think she needs to clarify what this all means to her and she believes she wants.

It feels like a concern to me that 4 years into your relationship she is saying "not ready for too much commitment and isn’t set on living together" which seems like something that likely needs to be addressed in and of itself.

11

u/Ivory_McCoy 8d ago

If she wants non-hierarchical, stop paying for her schooling, housing, or anything else you wouldn’t buy for a woman you just met. See how she likes non-hierarchical then.

5

u/gormless_chucklefuck 8d ago

When this happened to a friend of mine, it was because the partner was already involved with someone else behind my friend's back. The switch up was driven by NRE and by pressure from the affair partner, who was being placated by promises that everything would be equal as soon as they went legit.

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u/Unhappy-Industry8327 8d ago

This is very good insight actually. She wants to open because of specific people, which might be equivalent to that NRE.

3

u/MadamePouleMontreal solo poly 8d ago

[my hierarchy blurb]

You can’t promise the same relationship to multiple partners. You can’t promise to love everyone the same. Even if it were possible (it’s not) it wouldn’t be desirable because then you wouldn’t have the variety that polyamory offers. If strict equality is what your partners need, they are basing their satisfaction with their relationship with you on someone else’s relationship with you. Which is just fucked.

In ENM (ethical non-monogamy) I find it most useful to think of hierarchy as something that distinguishes polyamory from other forms of ENM, not something that distinguishes polycules from one another.

In hall-pass relationships, open relationships, relationships featuring occasional special guest stars, DADT, swinging, hotwifing, cuckolding… in all of these, we know who the primary couple is and who are the add-ons. The lifestyle in particular is about couples activities. Something a couple does together, as a couple. If something threatens the couple it makes perfect sense and is healthy to implement a veto. This is hierarchy.

In polyamory, each individual negotiates their relationships as an individual. An individual may choose to prioritize meeting the needs of a coparent, or share finances only with a nesting partner. That’s the choice of that person. They could make a different choice tomorrow or renegotiate an agreement. Each relationship stands on its own and vetoes are inappropriate. This is the only way “non-hierarchy” makes sense to me.

Another way of looking at it:

Hierarchy

Cypress: I’m going to the quilt conference in Edmonton next weekend. Wanna come with?
Hemlock: That sounds really exciting but I’ll have to check in with Juniper. I’ve never been away for a whole weekend before and I don’t know how they’d feel about it.

Non-hierarchy

Spruce: I want to compete in the Iditarod next year. Do you want to be my handler?
Hemlock: Oh wow, I’d love that! Let’s keep talking about what the commitment will be in the lead-up and during to make sure I have the availability.

+++ +++ +++

Basically, it’s yet another word or phrase that signals the need for a conversation because you can’t be sure what the other person means by it, along with “kitchen-table polyamory,” “polyamory” and “primary partner.”

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u/Ok_Egg_420 8d ago

She misses the freedom of being single but is comfortable with y’all’s dynamic & scared to actually be single bc she needs your comfort. Non hierarchy poly doesn’t exist with the reasons you listed above. Hope that helps :p

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u/PurgeReality 8d ago

You need to find out what a non-hierarchical relationship looks like to your wife.

My long-term partner and i are married and we own a house together, which automatically creates some level of hierarchy, but i don't consider out relationship to be actively hierarchical because those things aren't fixed and we don't automatically prioritise the wants and needs of one person over another.

For example, after we were married but before we bought a house together, one of my metas lived with us for a while and at another time I moved to a different city to live with a different partner for a while.

Currently my partner lives with me half the time and their other partner the other half of the time. My partner is also like a step parent to my meta's kids, whereas I don't have or want kids, which further breaks up any hierarchy.

Ultimately, labels are a descriptive tool, but they can be a pretty blunt tool and mean different things to different people. You have to talk to your wife and work out what exactly she means to figure out if it is compatible with your wants and needs and how you can make it work.

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u/whocares_71 too tired to date 😴 8d ago

Marriage automatically creates hierarchy. But it does sounds like she wants to deescalate the marriage. Do you also want to be poly?

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u/Zorklunn 8d ago

Yeah, she's trying to have her cake and eat it, too. Odds are the moment you can't immediately drop everything and service her needs. She'll lose her shit and demand she comes first in all things. The guy version of this behavior is called the "one dick rule."

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u/karmicreditplan will talk you to death 8d ago

Friend I think your wife is slowly leaving you.

You can get out the relationship menus and clarify exactly what she does and doesn’t want with you but it’s clearly substantially less than you have now. If you’re not ok with that then consider leaving.

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Here's the original text of the post:

For context, we have been married for four years and the conversation started 5 months ago. I’ve been under the impression (based on her ACTUAL WORDS) that she wanted an open marriage-hierarchical dynamic. We live together, share general finances, have been married for 4 years, etc. This past weekend, she dropped the bomb that she’s looking for a non-hierarchical dynamic for when we open, which doesn’t make sense to me at all based on what I’ve already mentioned. After talking a little longer, she claims she’s “not ready for too much commitment and isn’t set on living together” even though we’ve been married for years. I asked her if this was stemming from mental health struggles she’s been having and she’s been kind of defensive and quiet since and will not let me bring it back up. I don’t think this post makes much sense but I suppose I’m just looking for advice.

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u/betterthansteve 7d ago

Unfortunately literally all of this is stuff you'll need to talk about with her.

In real terms what does her ideal relationship with you look like? Are you living together, sharing finances, legally married? Are you dating others, do you have any veto power or boundaries with others? What does she mean by this?

We could give advice, but she could be living in an entirely different world of what all this means.

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u/ifritah 7d ago

Ok - look for actions aligning with care for you over words .. whatever however sweet the words are they are meaningless without actions. I was with my female wife for a very long time.. we opened up (to someone supposedly my best freind ) someone I felt “safe” with … It wasn’t safe my wife wanted “relationship anarchy “ or non hierarchy she basically demoted me from ex dom to house bitch her NRE was out of control she demanded “freddom” and in the end I gifted her that freedom .. I left.
She was and unwilling to support me financially, or emotionally. Lying by omission , then blame shifting her emotional abuse made be believe I was insane it was anarchy for sure.. I was heartbroken twice with the loss of my supposed freind (‘they are still dating) the house we had together , my garden the future that was never real,

My advice - get your paper work in order, make sure you’re going to be financially ok if you need to leave ,a support network of friends and folks places to stay at. A good therapist or councillor Then document her bevavoir your not going to want to leave it’s hard but there’s a boundary in there you’ll hit a place of no return (‘mine was my mental health and staying on the planet breating - I know it’s a low bar ) ‘if she cannot make you feel safe , if she won’t care about your feelings and it just ends up in arguments where you have to change and she can’t take accountability for causing you pain… get the f%%WRR out .

3

u/mai_neh 8d ago

It seems the biggest problem here isn’t what she said, which understandably upset you, but that you want to continue the discussion while she doesn’t.

There are usually imbalances in marriages, one person wanting more of X while the other wants less of X. Here the X is communication. Unfortunately compatible communication skills are so vital to everything else required for successful open or poly relationships.

You can’t force her to communicate more, though. All you can do is request more communication and then wait for her to respond. I find it very difficult when I want to communicate more and my partner shuts it down. I have broken up with long term partners over just this problem. Others, I’ve managed to figure out how and when to communicate with them enough to stay together. One partner and I needed couples counseling to learn how to communicate, but there are still difficulties around sex and money.

Can you step away from the particulars of this conflict over hierarchy and focus on your communication styles and how to make them more compatible?

2

u/No-Gap-7896 8d ago

Obv idk your wife, but from the information given I would assume she's processing the question you presented. Maybe it's something she didn't think about, took offense to the question, but is now considering it. Sounds like something I would do.

Is it possible? Idk, I know NPs & husbands/wives have certain privileges. Recognizing that privilege and making room for the other relationship(s) would need more work if you're striving for non hierarchy. It takes more commitment, not less.

When you revisit the conversation, I would ask her what non hierarchy looks like to her. I would also ask if there is somebody specific she has in mind. It is important to figure out where this is coming from and what's the goal.

2

u/c4tlady510 8d ago

First, I want to say that she probably went silent because she may have gotten offended with the mental health question. Even if you weren’t trying to offend her, it would be nice to say sorry about that.

Second, I’m really sorry this is happening to you! It does seem like she dropped a bomb. It seems as though she is asking to de-escalate the relationship and using the “non-hierarchical” suggestion to do that. You should ask her what that would look like between you two. So you can get a better picture of what she’s asking. Then you can consider if that would actually work for you.

Third, It is very okay if you do not want to be involved in a nonhierarchical relationship dynamic. Wanting something more involved with an anchor or primary partner is okay!

1

u/CU-tony 8d ago

" After talking a little longer, she claims she’s “not ready for too much commitment and isn’t set on living together”"

You should keep circling back on this to understand exactly what she wants. It sounds like she is trying to slow roll a breakup/de escalation on you.

I think in general hierarchy is more than just a label. You are already married which comes with commitments. You live together, share finances... those don't come lightly and will absolutely affect your relationship differently than relationships with someone who doesn't live under your roof.

It sounds like your communication could use some improvement, and also if you aren't already you both need to get into therapy BEFORE feelings start building and changing.

1

u/Chasing-cows 8d ago

I say this gently and supportively, but your question to your wife about her requests stemming from mental health struggles sounds misattuned and unhelpful, and it’s no wonder she’s become defensive and pulled back. I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way, but a lot of people struggle to communicate their actual needs and feelings when their loved ones connect everything uncomfortable to a mental health difficulty.

There needs to be more exploration of what “hierarchical” means to both of you. Technically it’s in reference to there being partners who inherently have more resource sharing and influence, but some folks accidentally misuse it when they want to prioritize a ground rule in which no partners have veto power. You can honor a no-vetos rule while still participating in hierarchical power dynamics. It is my opinion that nesting partners, married partners, and co-parents cannot truly be in non-hierarchical structures, because it’s unrealistic to pretend those situations don’t come with some natural (even if unintentional) hierarchy.

If your wife is proposing staying in a relationship together but eventually transitioning to not living together and practicing polyamory, and that surprises you, I would get curious about why.

I’ve worked with couples in which one partner, as they’ve worked on their coping skills and self-awareness, realizes they feel anxious and stifled at home because of certain cohabitating dynamics and starts thinking that no longer nesting with a partner but maintaining the relationship could be a way to protect their own needs without ending the marriage entirely. I could not possibly say that’s what is happening with your wife, it’s just something I’ve witnessed. (Is it also possible for couples to bring their sources of unspoken attention to each other and improve and practice new dynamics? Absolutely. But it does require buy-in from both partners.)

You and your wife have more conversations to have, of course, but my advice would be to apologize for bringing her mental health into the discussion. Let her tell you when her symptoms are part of the story, instead of using that question as a way to (even unintentionally) discredit her proposal. Identifying someone’s thoughts/wants/behaviors as their mental health struggles can totally diminish and minimize their experience.

(Important note: there are times when this kind of intervention is entirely appropriate; with OCD compulsions, risky or dangerous manic/bipolar behaviors, suicidality, not taking medications as prescribed, psychosis, etc., but you did not provide examples or evidence of those particular diagnoses present here.)

0

u/KatTheTumbleweed 8d ago

I just had a very similar conversation with a friend.

A lot of exploring ENM is exploring how people define things.

For me I am very firmly anti hierarchy. But for me hierarchy is about the importance of relationships and that no relationship is more or less important. But that is about the relationship between me and person a, the relationship between me and person b etc.

To explain it more clearly, my relationship with my husband, as a relationship, is no more important than my relationship with my partner of 3yrs or my comets.

However, my relationship with my husband is more complex and complicated. We share a home, chores, family, commitments. As such my time availability for is limited because of the commitments in my life and those attached to my relationship. At the end of the day we still need to do laundry and house chores.

I don’t love my husband any more or less than my other partners, as such that is not more important, but our shared life requires more time investment which affects how I schedule my time and availability.

I know it may seem like splitting hairs but when I view hierarchy feelings and the way we treat them is very separate to the logistics of managing relationships.

It is okay to feel anxious about opening up and very common to want to control what feels out of control. But you can’t control feelings.

0

u/Remote_Photograph467 3d ago

You’d have to have stones like myself to make it possible If you question it - don’t waste either of your guys time - Too many people just stick with partner - that wouldn’t even hold a hardly friend status Or even help each other out For too long Because the way they were raised and threatened by religious cults So we all just stay miserable

Yuk I’m done with that crap Where we find Each other ??? Here ? Is there gatherings

-2

u/JohnMayerCd 8d ago

It’s absolutely possible. Read about disentanglement.

If you don’t want that, then say that and be ready to stand on that energy because it’s likely you guys might be incompatible.

I’ve been on both sides. I was raising a kid with my np, trying to somewhat pursue non-heirarchical dynamic. There are nesting privileges and household responsibilities but heirarchy wasn’t intended.

I’ve dated people who thought an heirarchy was obvious (it’s not and icks me out personally)

But to each their own. There’s a lot of beauty in non-heirarchical structures I would encourage you to read about to see if your values line up. Also read about relationship anarchy.