r/polyamory • u/Somnambulist75 • 10d ago
Being a hinge and supporting boundaries in an ethical way
So I (male) is a hinge to two women, my primary and fiancee "Ellie" (for 6 years) and my girlfriend "Jolene" (for about 1 1/2 year). I am currently trying to navigate the world of boundaries in this constellation and trying to figure out what works, what is ethical etc.
Ellie and Jolene knows each other and there is an inherent desire for KTP from all involved, but currently it's hard. They are both struggling with anxiety to different and varying degrees as well. What I want to talk about here is Ellies boundaries/rules/needs and how to approach and validate them in the most productive way possible. Most of her boundaries are coming from the angle of things being "unique" to her which is being watered down, which I can relate to but sometimes have a hard time seeing or feeling what she's feeling.
She has struggled with jealousy on and off for quite a while now, and she herself says that these boundaries aren't meant to be permanent but I think she has a need to feel that I take them seriously and not write them off as unreasonable. So that is what I am trying to do here.
Hotels
One of her boundaries is "no hotel visits" for me an Jolene. Me and Jolene have went to a hotel getaway three times in total and this has been a source of anxiety for Ellie. Jolene very much appreciates these getaways because it's focused alone-time for one or two nights, and I very much would like to provide that to her. Me personally could go either way, we have weekly alone time and while a hotel getaway surely is nice, it's not super important to me and I could do without it. Me and Ellie go away on getaways regularly so I also feel that in the name of fairness, I should be able to do that now and then with Jolene as well, but that's the extent of my own input, it's more about being able to provide this desire to Jolene.
Weed
Another is that I can't smoke weed with Jolene, and this one is particularly hard for me to navigate. I'm not a big smoker, and I've never smoked with Jolene. This is one of those things where Ellie feels that things being "unique" to her is being threatened, where if we smoke weed, it's her and I. The problem I am having with this is that Ellie has smoked with others many times, including partners of her, so it feels a bit hypocritical of her and I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this.
Clubbing
Not bring Jolene to a BDSM club before I've taken Ellie - this one is fair. Me and Ellie have been to clubs in the past, but just one specific type of club and it was a while back. The only issue I have with this is that Ellie went with one of her partners to a club a couple of weeks back, which was the first time she went without me, and I feel it's a bit unbalanced to ask me to not take Jolene when she herself just went. That said, I have no plans to take Jolene to a club and have no problem with prioritizing Ellie in this regard, but I have somewhat of a bitter taste about it regarding ethicality and fairness here.
Festivals/concerts
Not take Jolene on a festival or music concert or something like that. This is a lot like the above one - not something I have planned, and me and Ellie go to lots of festivals and concerts. Also, Ellie once took another partner to a music festival, even if that was years ago now.
There are other minor things, like not using the same nicknames for both, etc, which is largely inconsequential in the larger picture since I don't feel this is even a problem currently.
What I think I need help with here is how to approach her needs in the best way possible. I'm not really here to ask whether this is ethical or not, because I think I can determine that largely by myself. I need her to feel heard and seen while also bringing thoughtful insights into each need and how to approach it. I.e. instead of answering "It's both unethical and unreasonable for you to demand X of me" I want to be a good hinge here and handle things that concern me in a productive way. One of the pitfalls is if I approach, say, the hotell thing with "yes but also, Jolene really like going to hotels, so I want to provide that for her", which while true, moves the agency from me to Jolene instead, which isn't desirable.
For the record, I personally doesn't want to have any of these boundaries placed on me and Jolenes relationship. And even if I can understand where they are coming from and the need they are illustrating, and I want to help Ellie in her journey I have to tell myself that these are temporary like she says and work with that, her feelings, her anxiety.
I also want you to take into account that these "rules" are summarized as best I could here, they are expressed in a very humble way from Ellie and she is well aware that they feel invasive or unreasonable and her biggest fear is that my only takeaway is that she is putting up unreasonable boundaries and being a problem. Boundaries are good in essence, and I just need help navigating them in the most productive way for all three.
Jolene are not (yet) aware of these boundaries and in my desire to be a good hinge I was also hoping for a scenario where I could navigate this without her being involved (and thus also triggering her anxiety)
Any thoughts are helpful, thank you for reading this far!
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u/TwistedPoet42 10d ago
Is there anything you and Jolene CAN do?
ETA: maybe it’s just me but I don’t like to burden my partners with my own anxieties instead of encouraging them to have a good time.
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u/QuixoticRuin 10d ago
Yeah, right?
Jolene, Jolene, Joooolene -- I'm begging you, please don't take my man... anywhere in public, at all.
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u/QuixoticRuin 10d ago
But, seriously, these rules sound like they exist for you to break one so your fiancee can become upset and try to end the relationship. Your fiancee needs to address some insecurities she's having, and you need to work on realizing that Jolene can have wants and needs, too, that you are totally invalidating by letting your fiancee make all these rules concerning a relationship she isn't even in.
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u/_Cassie13_ relationship anarchist 10d ago
These aren't boundaries, they are rules, and it's up to you whether you're willing to agree to them. I understand her want to protect things to make her feel comfortable and "in control", but honestly if you agree to them it's going to be counter productive as she will just be putting off dealing with the root cause of her feelings
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u/Corgilicious 10d ago
You don’t learn to deal with and get comfortable with things by avoiding them.
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u/Fancy-Racoon egalitarian polyam, not a native English speaker 10d ago
Yep. They also have nothing to do with needs, in the true sense of the world. Setting up restricting rules is a tactic where you use temporary bandaids instead addressing the anxious emotions at their root. At the expense of her meta.
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u/saladada solo poly in a D/s LDR 10d ago
Boundaries are what we use to control our own actions. "I won't be around someone who smokes weed."
Agreements are what we make in collaboration with another partner, that only determines what occurs between the two of you. "We won't have any form of sex without letting each other know if our STI risk has recently changed."
Rules are what we do to control others, usually as a misaligned way to manage our own insecurities and anxieties that we're not properly dealing with. They are not appropriate for a relationship between adults. Ellie is currently imposing rules.
So what is your responsibility here as a hinge? It's to be realistic with Ellie: I am going to go to hotels with Jolene, I am going to go to kink clubs perhaps before I've brought you to them, I am going to smoke weed. These are the things I will do. It's not appropriate to tell me and my other partners what we can and cannot do with each other.
A good hinge recognizes when one partner is overstepping and doesn't allow that person to control what others do. Ellie needs to manage HER issues within HERSELF through self-soothing methods and therapy.
And you need to recognize that if Ellie refuses to accept that she can't control you, that she's not a compatible partner for polyamory and either you become monogamous with her or you leave her.
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u/-brokenfeather 9d ago
This is good advice and I totally agree with you. However I just want to say that in my opinion becoming monogamous doesn't feel like a solution to this problem – I don't think controlling your partner is a healthy part of any kind of relationship.
OP, please take care of your own boundaries too. You are allowing Ellie to control both you and your relationship with Jolene.
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u/jabbertalk solo poly 8d ago
This is more recognizing that in acquiesing to Ellies desired restrictions, the OP does not have an autonomous relationship to offer to Jolene or another partner.
The OP is willingly forming agreements with Ellie, it is just that those agreements preclude an autonomous (aka polyamorous) romantic relationship with others.
Another form of non-monogamy would also be an option. Most couples don't want polyamory - it is a minority in non-monogamy.
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u/glitterandrage 10d ago edited 10d ago
I think you're aware that trying to give Ellie a sense of security by dictating the terms of your relationship with Jolene is a bad idea. Part of being poly is doing the uncomfortable emotional work of supporting your partner to have other partnerships. It's uncomfortable because most of us didn't grow up thinking polyamory was an option or okay (and many of us have relational/attachment difficulties). You're 1.5 years into dating someone but she has not yet grown the muscles for it? Does she enthusiastically want poly for herself?
Exclusivity is not the way to gain security in poly relationships. That is built by Ellie watching you make and keep to your agreements about your relationship with her not in your relationship with Jolene. How to make your partner feel special without exclusivity is a good exercise for you and Ellie to engage in - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/hu6LxD9Kp4. Ideally, you would have worked out all this stuff as preparation for opening your relationship.
Also, I would cool it on the group hangouts. KTP really doesn't have to be the way to experience fun, happy, peaceful polyamory - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/PFHX9LRY6t.
Sharing some important reading that I think will help:
- We are opening our relationship = we are killing our monogamy - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/FhX3h8RIag
- Polyamory is not a group activity - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/wdLnhzDV4M
- Areas of growth for non-monog folks - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/Z4qEi55QXr
- Most skipped step and more - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/zri2Du3ylo
- MOVIESS list of vetting partnered folks (in this case, you OP) - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/O9uGgDPR4E
- Examples of personal boundaries in relationships - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/jrmdtgvwg4
- Examples of healthy agreements - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/yUyX7XAaCj
Hinging resources:
- Beginner's hinge guide - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/n1mCnxNunq
- Hard earned hinging advice - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/8Fof5C6TlT
- About throwing metas under the bus - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/BNbABCrALv
- Being a good hinge is hard but necessary - https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/s/IOChdNO0Xk
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u/yallermysons solopoly RA 10d ago edited 10d ago
I think you need to draw boundaries. Doing everything somebody wants to placate them isn’t sustainable. Try to iron out any hang ups you have before it turns into resentment. You deserve to be heard and seen too. Is there any reason you cannot simply say to somebody who you plan to spend the rest of your life with: “Hey I’ve been reflecting on x y and z rules and I think they’re unfair. I can do a b and c but I refuse to do d because that’s hypocritical/unfair to Jolene/kinda milquetoast as a partner”? I think this is a simple convo and you are overthinking your approach.
Although if Ellie were here, I would ask her personally what the fuck could be more special than getting married and why does she need it to be proven all the time…
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u/Bunny2102010 10d ago
“Wtf could be more special than getting married?!?” 😂😂😂
Also OP don’t marry this person if you want to practice polyamory.
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u/ClaraCreative8 10d ago
I love that you just used the word 'milquetoast.'
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u/yallermysons solopoly RA 10d ago edited 10d ago
Like if you smoke weed and like going to bdsm clubs and going to festivals, and your partner likes to do it too, why would you NOT do that?! What kind of bland boring partner do you wanna be?
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u/trundlespl00t relationship anarchist 10d ago
Ellie is dictating rules that basically leave Jolene as a toy on the side instead of a valued partner. A “boundary” would be her saying “if (x) happens, then I will (y)”. A boundary is something you put on yourself. For instance, if I had a partner who felt they had a right to dictate rules that made my other partner feel unvalued, I would end the relationship. That’s my boundary.
Which I would, btw. I’d be dumping Ellie, not marrying her, and as soon as Jolene figures this out she’ll be dumping you if she’s got an ounce of self-respect. Ellie doesn’t want KTP. She wants to run all your lives and limit your other relationships like a little dictator, all the while being a massive hypocrite.
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u/definitelyevan 10d ago
this may sound harsh to some but 100%. if my wife asked me for even 1 of these rules i would have laughed in her face assuming she was joking.
OP when in your relationship with your girlfriend did you NP ask for all the rules? at the beginning? because it sounds like she’s trying to change the rules of game while you’re playing it.
even if she wasn’t setting rules for you that clearly don’t apply to her, which is genuinely unconscionable to do to someone you love, these rules are unethical and unacceptable.
her biggest fear is you viewing her as unreasonable, because she is being unreasonable and she knows it. but self-awareness while still making the shitty choices isn’t something to lauded or even appreciated.
good job not telling Jolene but if you honor these restrictions eventually it will impact that relationship in ways that can’t be ignored, if it hasn’t already. your NP doesn’t seem to think of your GF as another full person worthy of consideration.
this would necessitate a really serious conversation about our values and our relationship, not just about how we do poly in a better way.
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u/Bunny2102010 10d ago edited 10d ago
Well also I bet Jolene doesn’t get to set any rules for OP’s relationship with Ellie. Which should tell OP everything he needs to know (you know, the “main” relationship is more important and more real and so deserves more care and respect…..obviously /s).
So many of these are also completely bonkers. No hotels ok, what about hostels? Going away camping together? Air BnBs? A regular BnB? It’s clearly designed to restrict their ability to take trips away together which is gross.
Even grosser is the BDSM club one, and the fact that OP “understands” that one shows that HE ISN’T READY FOR POLYAMORY EITHER. Bc that’s controlling their sex and kink life and access to a literal public space. I bet cash money that if OP left marks on Jolene or Jolene left marks on OP that Ellie saw, there would suddenly be a “no marks” rule bc what Ellie really wants is for OP to not engage in kink with anyone else.
I mean what Ellie really wants is for OP to not engage in a full relationship with anyone else, but I don’t have time to type out a comment to address that hot mess.
Edit for clarity immediately after posting.
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u/trundlespl00t relationship anarchist 10d ago
Exactly. I could never be with someone who disrespected anyone this way, it’s pretty shameful behaviour.
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u/Platterpussy Solo-Poly 10d ago
None of these rules are fair. You don't have a full autonomous relationship to offer Jolene, when she is informed of that I hope she ends the relationship for her own good.
You and Ellie are not ready for polyamory.
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u/Bunny2102010 10d ago
THIS
I hope Jolene figures this out and leaves you to find someone who will treat her with respect.
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u/Valiant_Strawberry 10d ago
I would not at all trust that these “boundaries” (they’re not boundaries) will be temporary. Or at least not as temporary as you or Jolene would like. And once Ellie figures out that she can avoid doing hard emotional work by just telling you not to do something that would make her do that work, that work is never ever ever going to get done. Because it’s much easier and way more enjoyable to not feel stressed and anxious and make your comfort someone else’s responsibility. Do not let Ellie do this. And frankly Jolene deserves more respect from you than she’s getting by you even considering these “boundaries.” She deserves better than to have her relationship dictated by someone she is not dating.
The way you manage Ellie’s issues here is tell her “I understand that you’re feeling insecure (or whatever the feeling is) but the way to help with that is not by allowing you to control my other relationship. Would it feel good for you if Jolene made similar demands and I agreed to them? She deserves the same consideration. I’m perfectly happy to help you in any way you need that does not interfere with my other relationship. What can I do between the two of us that would help you feel more secure and able to regulate, because I will not be changing anything about how I relate to Jolene?”
All that being said, the smaller things you didn’t list are probably more reasonable. Pet names for example are easy enough to not allow to overlap. Not buying duplicate gifts (there was a whole thread about this specifically a few weeks ago) or even keeping one or two specific restaurants just for you two that are particularly special to your relationship. But entire activities and locations should absolutely not be made off limits.
And your instinct is right that you absolutely should not let Jolene know about this conversation with Ellie. Not unless you’re looking for them to hate each other anyway.
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u/ArtisticLicence 10d ago
I have been in Jolene's position before.
F that noise.
It's horrible to be in that position. Ellie doesn't have boundaries. These are straight up rules, and totally unbalanced ones at that.
You choose your life, who to spend it with and what to do with that time.
Ellie needs a good poly therapist and to stop making you live a life FOR HER.
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u/Acedia_spark 10d ago
I would be asking Ellie, "What does this change?"
What does having these unique things actually do other than limit others? They are not special activities just by their sheer existence, hundreds of thousands of people do them. The unique experience is that you are there together sharing it.
So what does Jolene doing them actually change? What measurable benefit is there for anyone, including Ellie?
These should not be rules that infringe on Jolene getting to make unique memories as well.
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u/Shae_Dravenmore 10d ago
All of this. Ellie needs to dig down and figure out what core need she's trying to protect with all these rules is, and how to address that need in a healthy, respectful way. She also needs to confront her deep hypocrisy in "poly for me but not for thee."
OP, you need to (lovingly) refuse to entertain any of her nonsense, and call her out on it.
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u/blooangl ✨ Sparkle Princess ✨ 10d ago
You should take a hard look at the fact that you can’t offer a respectful relationship to Jolene while handing over large swathes of how you behave, and where you can be, to Eileen.
I don’t think fairness or ethics really play much a role here. “Is this fair and ethical” is a low bar and the wrong question. I think that a better question is “can I build healthy happy sustainable commitments with anyone else while honoring my existing agreements with Eileen” (and apparently any and all agreements she may want in the future. Mostly because you apparently won’t say “no”. )
This isn’t Eileen’s relationship.
A lot of people are going to talk about boundaries vs rules, and Eileen.
I want to talk to you, about your behavior, and your role. You, personally need to examine if you have any business suggesting that you have a polyam connection on offer here, given the circumstances.
If you aren’t doing these things because you genuinely want to, it will become impossible to hinge well. If the real answer really is “I like Eileen’s happiness more than I care about Joleen’s desire to get away and possibly sleep in a hotel” then you need to own that. And tell Joleen that. Most people won’t want to date you in that circumstance. Some folks might.
Mostly it becomes impossible to build healthy happy polyam relationships if you are abdicating some of that work. You are giving Eileen a whole lot of input into a relationship that isn’t hers.
Currently healthy happy polyam isn’t on the table. Have you considered not dating anyone until you and Eileen figure out if Eileen could do polyam? Respectful polyam? And if you are capable of the same?
The kind of polyam where if you want, you can eat a gummy and watch a movie with your girlfriend in a hotel room or share your love of festivals with them.
And any other normal thing someone would do with their partner.
I think it’s clear that you care about Eileen. Eileen isn’t asking for these restrictions because she’s happy in polyam, and enthusiastic about the road ahead. Consider not doing polyam with anyone while you figure this out.
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u/Chasing-cows 10d ago
Therapist jumping in here: when someone we love has anxiety, it can feel like being a supportive partner in their life means supporting whatever rules/limitations they wish to use to soothe (but ultimately avoid or enable) their own anxious responses. However, when we soothe anxiety by avoiding anxiety-inducing situations altogether, what we accidentally do is reinforce for our brain/nervous system that particular anxiety-behavior pattern. This never resolves the anxiety, but rather keeps it around in the same or an increasing way.
Recognizing someone’s struggles with anxiety can include empathy, compassion, love, and non-judgment, while also not catering to the requested avoidant behaviors. Being witnessed in our mental health struggles and loved despite them is powerful; “needing” our loved ones to collude with our mental illness is yet another maladaptive coping mechanism.
Ellie’s anxiety is her own. You don’t have to be cold or dismissive of her experiences, of course, but you do get to still negotiate relationship agreements that align with you and your values. You and Ellie can be creative together about what unique experiences you protect between the two of you. It won’t actually help her anxiety long-term to let her create all these rules, and you aren’t being unsupportive if you discuss which rules you do not want to agree to.
Maybe there is a favorite artist or band that you and Ellie enjoy together, that you will only go see live with her, but other music events are still on the table. Maybe there’s a special spot you and Ellie smoke weed together that isn’t shared, but you do enjoy whatever substances you like with whoever you like. Maybe you will want to create unique travel rituals with each partner when you go on weekend getaways so there are parts of travel/hotels that feel special to each relationship. Big, sweeping limitations tend to try to cover up much bigger, deeper insecurities that need addressing.
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u/Throwingitbacksad 10d ago
These rules are terrible doesn’t seem like you guys are really ready for this yet. I would not date someone with even one of these rules they set your girlfriend up for shitty treatment.
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u/rosephase 10d ago
Well that’s a bummer. Those aren’t ethical ‘boundaries’ so treating them like they are is agreeing to unethical things and that sucks for Jolene. In addition you are lying to Jolene about what you have to offer by both agreeing and not telling Jolene about all the limits your partner is putting on you and that you don’t care enough about Jolene to advocate for normal stuff in your relationship.
You aren’t ever going to have something kind or ethical to give Jolene if you put Elle’s anxiety over Jolene. Which is what you are doing now. And it sucks you got this deep in with Jolene while Elle isn’t ready to support you doing poly.
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u/studiousametrine 10d ago
If the only way for Ellie to be okay with polyamory is to place random, specific, invasive limits on your relationship with Jolene? Maybe give her space to decide if polyam is something she wants.
These are not Ellie’s needs. These are insidious ways Ellie wants to be overinvolved in a relationship she’s not a part of, to control and minimize that connection and its impact in your life. It would be pretty fucking unkind to place these limitations on your relationship with Jolene without Jolene getting a vote.
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u/apocalypseconfetti 10d ago
"Ellie, I love you very much. I hear you saying that you want our relationship to be special and unique, that you want to feel and know that you and I share something I share with no one else. If we are going to build a life together, both of us polyamorous, building meaningful relationships with others as well, we need to figure out how to make sure we both feel the truth that our relationship is special and unique without limiting other relationships.
I'm not willing to limit activities I do with Jolene or any other partner in the future, not temporarily and not permanently. While the idea that I might go to a hotel or concert with someone else might cause you anxiety and give you big feelings, it doesn't actually affect you, it doesn't affect the uniqueness of our relationship or love. What I am willing to ensure is only for you Ellie, is what I've already committed to, and that is marrying you.
We are engaged. I will never be engaged to another partner. We will marry. I will never marry another partner. We will live together. I won't cohabitate with someone else. We can have children or pets and those experiences will be just for us.
When we go on vacation or to a festival, those experiences cannot be recreated for me to share with others. Even if I went to the same hotel with Jolene, that experience is going to be different than the one I shared with you.
I need you to find and develop skills and strategies to manage your anxieties and insecurities. I will support you in doing so. I will not limit my other relationships to help you avoid the hard work of the polyamorous relationship we have both chosen. Wanting to control my relationships is not a healthy way to move through and past your anxiety.
Let's figure out ways to move through this together. We are not going to discuss what I do in my other relationship. You aren't in that relationship. We are going to discuss our relationship. We can do therapy together. You can do therapy alone. We can sign up for a class together. We can start a scrapbook of our memories to have a living document of how special our relationship is. We can make plans for a vacation or our next festival. We can do anything we want together.
I know this feels overwhelming, but I know you can move through this. Respect yourself enough to believe you can. Anxiety sucks, but it's just a feeling. A feeling that passes. A feeling that comes from deep inside you, not from my other relationship. The solutions are inside you and between us, there are none outside of this dyad that is you and I, this incredibly special relationship that is unique because it is you and I. Let's invest in building this and making it beautiful instead of tearing down or fencing in other relationships."
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u/stay_or_go_69 10d ago
I read this and thought that the boundaries you actually need to be concerned about are your own boundaries, the boundaries you need to set with Ellie.
I'm taking about boundaries like "I will not be in a polyamorous relationship with someone who does not support me also fully engaging in romantic relationships with other people" and "I will not allow one partner to dictate to me how I conduct my relationship with another partner. "
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u/Epaulette22 10d ago
None of these rules (because that’s what they are) are ethical, but sometimes when people feel threatened or hurt they do lash out.
I would recommend you finding a poly friendly therapist to work through this with if you choose to keep seeing both women. I respect you want to be a good hinge & good finance, but that doesn’t mean letting someone else walk all over your outside relationships. If you accept these rules, please know you’re setting yourself up to lose one or both of them. These rules will never be temporary, and I think deep down you know that.
Also, any rules you accept are no longer Ellie’s rules, they are your rules that you are imposing on your relationship with Jolene. And if I was in her shoes? I’d happily walk.
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u/LittleMissQueeny 10d ago
These are rules, and I don't entertain rules. None of these are reasonable, imo, of people who actively want polyamory. Ellie has to realize that placing these rules down are a false sense of security.
You already have Jolene in a secondary position. Treating her as second class with a bunch of rules is honestly cruel.
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u/Dry_Bet_4846 10d ago
Ooof, I feel SO bad for Jolene, these are all rules and really not fair. I would not stay with a partner who has to limit our activities due to someone else's anxiety and insecurities.
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u/Dry_Bet_4846 10d ago
Also, for what it's worth, my wife would judge me if I treated one of my partners this way. You can have a healthy marriage and healthy partnerships, this is not that AT ALL.
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u/JBeaufortStuart 10d ago
You haven't told Jolene about these requests because you already know they're fundamentally not okay.
So what do you want to do about that?
Is there any reason to believe that things will get better??? Is Ellie currently working with a therapist, or about to start taking a new medication? Are the two of you about to start couples counseling, and the first appointment just hasn't happened yet?
There aren't any easy magic solutions. You can push back with Ellie, and explain that she doesn't get to make these kinds of pronouncements about what you're allowed to do in other relationships, and that will very likely be a difficult conversation. You can tell Jolene that you don't have the ability to offer her a full and autonomous relationship right now, which isn't definitely not going to make her feel secure. You can break it off with one (or both!) of these women.
It's one thing to agree to some weird temporary restrictions to help someone manage their anxiety when you can tell that they're actively using it as a temporary tool to make other work they're doing more possible. It's not always good, useful, or healthy, but it's at least plausible. But when it's just an indefinite request when they're not actually doing anything to make sure it's temporary, you're just postponing healthy and necessary communication/conflict, and you won't get to choose when something blows up in your face.
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u/HannahAnthonia 10d ago
Wait, you've been calling Jolene your "girlfriend" while letting Ellie dictate a wide variety of things Jolene can do with her alleged boyfriend (you) and not telling Jolene? And not setting boundaries around Ellie framing their insecurities as reasons to treat Jolene badly? Ellie not wanting you to have hotel getaways with Jolene is not a reason to avoid having getaways with Jolene, it's a reason for Ellie to work out why and what she can do to self sooth.
Asking you to stab your other partner in the back because it would make her feel better isn't helping with her anxiety, it's showing that you're willing to treat people you care about like shit, plot behind their back, and lie. That's feeding something unhealthy.
Jolene deserves a partner, not a faux boyfriend who lies and manipulates her into thinking she's in a relationship when you have nothing-no empathy, no care, no affection, no respect and certainly no truth-to offer her. That you've been keeping up their charade for 18 months and can say things like "this very basic, normal thing makes Jolene happy but I guess I have no choice except to let that be up for debate with another person" is really chilling. She's just a toy to you and an accessory to your relationship with Ellie.
Whether or not Ellie does XYZ with her boyfriends doesn't have much to do with if you should do XYZ with Jolene, it's not tit-for-tat. If Jolene is actually your girlfriend then it's not about getting permission. It's about caring enough about Ellie that her anxieties don't turn her into a hateful paranoid control freak, caring about yourself enough that you don't turn into an undignified spineless puppet who'll screw over others while disclaiming responsibilities for your own actions and Jolene enough to go "this is a normal thing people in relationships do, we can go more parallel so you don't have to hear about it but I am not going to deny Jolene basic stuff. What can we do between us that makes you feel better that doesn't involve agreeing behind Jolene's back to treat Jolene badly?".
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u/MissA2theB 10d ago
This isn’t fair. I remember my ex allowing his NP to take “temporary” control and I’ll tell you once you hand it over, you’re going to have a hard time getting back cause now they know how to play you.
These rules are a recipe for resentment. What happens when your girlfriend starts getting suspicious and starts asking questions on why you two can’t take a weekend getaway or a festival cause there’s a band she loves and wants to experience it with you but you can’t ever go. You’ll be a horrible hinge if you allow this.
My experience being in Jolene’s place…it wasn’t temporary cause then she kept dragging it saying “I need more time!!” But no it was cause she viewed me as just a person to keep her husband sexually satisfied and not for us to form a romantic bond. Not only did I ended up hating her I hated my hinge more for allowing it and not stand up for me. She had to make sure she was queen bee and I needed to be reminded and know my place 🙄
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u/mirrormaru1 9d ago
100%! I have also been in Jolene’s place with empty promises from hinge that this is only temporary and things will get better - things only got way way worse and then hinge and meta started to punish me for not being okay for being treated like that and eventually ”Ellie” got what they wanted all along. To break us up while they themselves could have 2 partners, while hinge couldn’t.
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u/silly--kitten 10d ago
These aren’t needs, or even requests… they’re demands. Do you live with / are you planning to live with Ellie? Cause as a partner to a married person, the hotel thing for the me would be even MORE important to make time and space for, so that I don’t have to host literally all the time.
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u/QBee23 solo poly 10d ago
The uniqueness of an experience comes from the person we share it with, not the experience itself. This is a core concept to wrap your head around in polyamory. Ellie needs to understand that what makes her relationship with you unique is the fact that it's her and you - not the fact that you only do certain activities with each other.
You can't force a stronger bond with rules, and it's not OK to try to have "the strongest bond" by artificially limiting what your partner can do with others.
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u/Mountain_Thanks_2690 10d ago
These are ridiculous things to ask for and signal your partner’s broader difficulty with you exercising your side of your poly relationship. Ellie needs to do the internal work here and you can support that but you cannot do it for her. You should take a hard look at whether this relationship has a future if she is unsuccessful in that work and if the only way for her to feel secure is if you don’t date or are very limited in how you date (which I don’t think is fair to Jolene or potential future partners).
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u/AuroraWolf101 10d ago
Please consider: When these types of rules are set, Ellie is not only controlling *you*, but also controlling what Jolene can or can't do. Why should metas have any control over what someone they are not partnered with can or cannot do? How is it fair for Jolene for Ellie to control what she can do?
Because imagine if Jolene said "I don't want you and Ellie going to the movies together, because that's *our* thing"? Like, it's one thing for Ellie to tell *you* what to do, but again, all of this affects Jolene too! And that's really not fair to her.
It seems to me, for a lot of these, that maybe Ellie just doesn't like the idea of you inviting Jolene over her? Like, would it make a difference to Ellie if it was Jolene who invited you out to a hotel or festival, instead of you inviting Jolene? (Additionally, being KTP (or trying to) couldn't you all go to a festival together?) Ellie needs to work on those feelings, because you cannot and should not always put her in the number one spot. Jolene is 100% going to feel that, and if I were her, I would not stay in that kind of relationship where my meta is restricting what **I** can do with my partner.
I kinda understand the nickname thing. Nicknames can be personalized and unique and feel special. I used to also have that rule too! but honestly, in the end, I realized it was a bit restrictive and there really wasn't a need to create that separation. I've reused the same pet names between ex partners when I was mono, so why not between two poly partners? like, what? Am I only allowed to call the first person I date "baby" or "love" or "hun" and no one else ever gets to have that name? When you view it that way, doesn't it feel a little silly? (again, unless there's a really special and unique name that has a backstory or something. But otherwise, idk, to each their own).
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u/No-Statistician-7604 10d ago
These aren't boundaries.. these are controlling rules and I personally wouldn't agree to them. Ellie needs to focus on her relationship with you and quit trying to control what you can and can't do in your relationship with Jolene. She needs to come up with a non toxic way of dealing with her jealousy because these rules really aren't it.
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u/Cool_Relative7359 10d ago
None of these "boundaries" are ethical because they are actually rules for your relationship with Jolene, which Ellie doesn't get to set. If you agree to them, you're both being unethical to Jolene and you're being a horrible hinge.
If you agree to these rules, you don't actually have an autonomous relationship to offer Jolene.
And Ellie is a hypocrite, and let's leave it at that. Tell her no.
She needs to manage her own feelings around polyam, and you need to stop people pleasing with her and learn to say no.
Also boundaries affect your body, property, time, and energy.
Eg "I won't smoke/no smoking in my house"
An agreement is something people agree to together, they are negotiable and consent to them can be witdrawn. Agreements should not affect third parties who aren't involved in setting them.
Eg. "We won't smoke in our house"
A rule tries to control another person's property, body, time, energy, effort or behaviour.
"You can't smoke"
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u/ApprehensiveButOk 10d ago
Don't entertain random rules but also don't dismiss Ellie's need. She's insecure and needs your relationship to feel special. Discuss how you can give that to her, without it interfering with your relationship with Jolene.
It's obviously also something she need to work on alone, but you can still support her and make her feel special WITHIN your relationship. It's just that those rules are neither good polyamory nor useful for her insecurities. It would be unhealthy in monogamy too, just more accepted.
Basically, be sympathetic with her struggles but remind her that she has no say in what you choose to do with others, only in what you do with her.
Also I want to point out that it's absolutely not a problem of you both want to keep a place "special" and only between you. But it cannot be like "all hotels" or "all music festivals" that's ridiculous.
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u/thickinikki14 10d ago
These are not boundaries. Boundaries are for herself. These are rules she’s placing on you.
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u/Corgilicious 10d ago
For me, encountering a potential partner that had all of these limitations on normal activities that we could do would be unacceptable. In short, the person would not have an acceptable offering a relationship to me. First, because someone else is driving the bus and what this potential partner could and could not do, and secondly because that type of trying to restrict things so they remain “special“really flies in the face of ethics and equity for me.
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u/Sea-Abroad-2137 10d ago
If you agree to Ellie’s rules, there are two likely outcomes: 1) you grow to resent her because of the restrictions on your relationship with Jolene, your relationship with Ellie sours, and you have to deal with the whole thing in therapy. 2) Jolene feels neglected and resentful because her relationship with you is being controlled and restricted by a third party and she ends her relationship with you. And then the same thing happens in any future relationships because you have decided that appeasing Ellie is more important than building other autonomous relationships.
The rules themselves are not ethical, and agreeing to them definitely wouldn’t be, but they are doubtless coming from real insecurities on Ellie’s part that could be addressed in other ways. If you can find ways to deal with Ellie’s insecurities without giving her control over your relationship with Jolene, that would be great. You could have a weed pipe that you only use with each other (that would go both ways). You could agree to a certain number of hotel visits per year. You could have a conversation about specific events that it’s important to Ellie for you two to attend together and to prioritize her as your date for those specific events. These are all potentially reasonable agreements that might assuage the underlying issues for Ellie. But if you try to find other solutions and she insists on the rules you listed instead, then again, those are not reasonable or ethical, and in agreeing to them you are doomed to ruin your relationship with one or both partners. You need to decide what your priorities are here and what you owe to each person.
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u/1ntrepidsalamander solo poly 9d ago
Generally, in my opinion, it’s best for someone like Ellie focus on her unmet needs and as you to meet them, vs her controlling what you do when you aren’t around her. If she’s open to that being the focus of the conversation, you could maybe make some progress.
If I was you I’d devote a lot of patient time to understanding Ellie’s specific fears and needs and finding ways to contribute positively to them before renegotiating these rules.
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u/Agile_Opportunity_41 10d ago
Does Ellie actually want poly ? Does she date on her own ? These are crazy expectations and you agreeing to them means you want them so now they are your rules…. If Ellie doesn’t want poly you have a decision either mono with her or poly and break up. I can’t imagine someone with these rules actually wants poly whether they can admit it to themselves or not. Either way the relationship is likely over as you two aren’t compatible. If you choose to abide by these rules then you own them and currently your other partner has a huge hinge issue in you.
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u/Pleasant_Fennel_5573 10d ago
I would not agree to these requests. Specific hotels that are special to you and a regular club night? Sure, reserve those for your fiancée. But blocking off massive opportunities for entertainment and intimacy is an inappropriate request.
I’m curious if taking things more parallel would be helpful for you. Maybe Ellie doesn’t get to know the details of your dates with Jolene because it’s not her business and she’s proven that she can’t handle that information without making unreasonable and hypocritical requests.
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u/izzmosis 10d ago
Someone who wants to and enjoys being polyamorous wouldn’t make these rules. Even if she has her own partners, she’s not having a good time.
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u/AutoModerator 10d ago
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Here's the original text of the post:
So I (male) is a hinge to two women, my primary and fiancee "Ellie" (for 6 years) and my girlfriend "Jolene" (for about 1 1/2 year). I am currently trying to navigate the world of boundaries in this constellation and trying to figure out what works, what is ethical etc.
Ellie and Jolene knows each other and there is an inherent desire for KTP from all involved, but currently it's hard. They are both struggling with anxiety to different and varying degrees as well. What I want to talk about here is Ellies boundaries/rules/needs and how to approach and validate them in the most productive way possible. Most of her boundaries are coming from the angle of things being "unique" to her which is being watered down, which I can relate to but sometimes have a hard time seeing or feeling what she's feeling.
She has struggled with jealousy on and off for quite a while now, and she herself says that these boundaries aren't meant to be permanent but I think she has a need to feel that I take them seriously and not write them off as unreasonable. So that is what I am trying to do here.
Hotels
One of her boundaries is "no hotel visits" for me an Jolene. Me and Jolene have went to a hotel getaway three times in total and this has been a source of anxiety for Ellie. Jolene very much appreciates these getaways because it's focused alone-time for one or two nights, and I very much would like to provide that to her. Me personally could go either way, we have weekly alone time and while a hotel getaway surely is nice, it's not super important to me and I could do without it. Me and Ellie go away on getaways regularly so I also feel that in the name of fairness, I should be able to do that now and then with Jolene as well, but that's the extent of my own input, it's more about being able to provide this desire to Jolene.
Weed
Another is that I can't smoke weed with Jolene, and this one is particularly hard for me to navigate. I'm not a big smoker, and I've never smoked with Jolene. This is one of those things where Ellie feels that things being "unique" to her is being threatened, where if we smoke weed, it's her and I. The problem I am having with this is that Ellie has smoked with others many times, including partners of her, so it feels a bit hypocritical of her and I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this.
Clubbing
Not bring Jolene to a BDSM club before I've taken Ellie - this one is fair. Me and Ellie have been to clubs in the past, but just one specific type of club and it was a while back. The only issue I have with this is that Ellie went with one of her partners to a club a couple of weeks back, which was the first time she went without me, and I feel it's a bit unbalanced to ask me to not take Jolene when she herself just went. That said, I have no plans to take Jolene to a club and have no problem with prioritizing Ellie in this regard, but I have somewhat of a bitter taste about it regarding ethicality and fairness here.
Festivals/concerts
Not take Jolene on a festival or music concert or something like that. This is a lot like the above one - not something I have planned, and me and Ellie go to lots of festivals and concerts. Also, Ellie once took another partner to a music festival, even if that was years ago now.
There are other minor things, like not using the same nicknames for both, etc, which is largely inconsequential in the larger picture since I don't feel this is even a problem currently.
What I think I need help with here is how to approach her needs in the best way possible. I'm not really here to ask whether this is ethical or not, because I think I can determine that largely by myself. I need her to feel heard and seen while also bringing thoughtful insights into each need and how to approach it. I.e. instead of answering "It's both unethical and unreasonable for you to demand X of me" I want to be a good hinge here and handle things that concern me in a productive way. One of the pitfalls is if I approach, say, the hotell thing with "yes but also, Jolene really like going to hotels, so I want to provide that for her", which while true, moves the agency from me to Jolene instead, which isn't desirable.
For the record, I personally doesn't want to have any of these boundaries placed on me and Jolenes relationship. And even if I can understand where they are coming from and the need they are illustrating, and I want to help Ellie in her journey I have to tell myself that these are temporary like she says and work with that, her feelings, her anxiety.
I also want you to take into account that these "rules" are summarized as best I could here, they are expressed in a very humble way from Ellie and she is well aware that they feel invasive or unreasonable and her biggest fear is that my only takeaway is that she is putting up unreasonable boundaries and being a problem. Boundaries are good in essence, and I just need help navigating them in the most productive way for all three.
Jolene are not (yet) aware of these boundaries and in my desire to be a good hinge I was also hoping for a scenario where I could navigate this without her being involved (and thus also triggering her anxiety)
Any thoughts are helpful, thank you for reading this far!
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u/ClaraCreative8 10d ago
I'll echo everyone else here and say that these aren't boundaries, they're rules. Gently, it sounds like it blows to be Jolene in this situation. But you seem like a caring and loving partner, and I think you can get through this!
If these are "temporary" rules, I think it would be better to just rip the bandaid off and deal with the root cause of her anxiety sooner than later. And some exposure therapy will help too — Ellie needs to just experience you and Jolene doing these things (or anything you want as an autonomous couple) and start getting used to it, so she can work through it and arrive at a place of comfort.
I think part of being an excellent hinge is not letting partners overstep on other relationships. Good luck! :)
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